College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080819/ap_on_re_us/college_presidents_drinking_age]College presidents seek debate on drinking age - Yahoo! News[/url]

Pretty interesting. Have to say I agree. You're either an adult at 18 or you aren't. There really aren't many lives saved by the 21 drinking age, the amount of deaths is just delayed by three years. Most people are either responsible when it comes to driving or stupid. Just how it is.

For those of you too lazy to read the article, they basically say that it encourages binge drinking. Interesting debate, I want to see what happens with this. It's not secret that I am a huge opponent to MADD. The idea I support fully, but there's a reason the founder left the organization and say that they've lost their direction.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

Deseal im 100% with you and your opposition with madd. Their direction has definitely changed from drunk driving prevention to neo probation. Not a fan of any special interest groups and madd is at the top of my most resented. The only rationalization ive ever been able to make of why we shouldn’t have the drinking age at 18 is that the brain and body is still developing – and drinking may hinder that. And I guess with trans fat cooking oil not allowed in some cities, prevalent smoking bans in non government owed establishments, and windfall taxes on excessive profits you can say restrictions on drinking falls in line with current thinking.

Heres a article I posted a long time ago on the neo-madd:


[url=http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,171383,00.html]FOXNews.com - When Drunk Driving Deterrence Becomes Neo-Prohibition - Opinion[/url]

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

It would be awesome if they lowered the age back down again. Not letting an adult be an adult until 21 is stupid. I mean, I just don't get it. You're old enough to get drafted. Old enough to sign your life away and fight terrorist, but your not old enough to kick back a few cold ones in a bar.............makes no freakin sense!

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

Maybe they should just raise the age which qualifies people as "adults". I suggest 40. LOL.

Seriously though, I'd support changing the legal age for adults to 21. It would never happen though.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

Great thread. The drinking age is dumb being set at 21. My friend has a Germany Au Pair and she and her other Germany friends are probably the most mature drinkers I know. To them it is part of life not some taboo thing that they can't do until they turn 21. They are are in the 18 to 21 age range.

Plus I hate MADD also, to me .08 is the dumbest number for DUI. Basically I can have one beer when I go out, other wise I run the potentially of having my entire life turned upside down if I get caught. Because some people decide to get wasted and go out and kill people, we all have to suffer. People that do that are going out regardless of the law they will keep doing it until they are in jail or dead.

BTW- If you live in NoVa and you go to bars and night clubs it is not if you going to get a DUI it is when. NoVa cops are nazis for DUI's. Basically when I lived there when I went out I had Diet Cokes. One time when I had one Miller Lite at Shadey Tree as soon as I started my car up the flashing lights came on. I passed everything but they were waiting.

When I was in college I want to start:

DFDD = [B]D[/B]runks [B]F[/B]or [B]D[/B]runk [B]D[/B]riving

Never got any wings, go figure.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

I think that their real goal is to relieve them from having to inforce underage drinking rules which I'm sure takes up allot of time. It does not surprise me one bit but I just don't see how bindge drinking and at what age you can drink have anything in common.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=firstdown;465413]I think that their real goal is to relieve them from having to inforce underage drinking rules which I'm sure takes up allot of time. It does not surprise me one bit but I just don't see how bindge drinking and at what age you can drink have anything in common.[/quote]


Funny you say that because the govt. got sick of inforcing it as well on their campus (San Diego Naval Base). Navy guys/gals on that base can drink at the age of 18.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=mredskins;465415]Funny you say that because the govt. got sick of inforcing it as well on their campus (San Diego Naval Base). Navy guys/gals on that base can drink at the age of 18.[/quote]
Well the drinking age at one time varied from state to state not sure if 21 is now a federal law or just how the states changed the laws. I don't know if it matters because most 18 year olds know other kids who are 21 who buy them beer.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

If states want federal funds for highways they have to enforce and make the legal drinking age 21.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

All this talk makes me want a beer.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=firstdown;465413]I think that their real goal is to relieve them from having to inforce underage drinking rules which I'm sure takes up allot of time. It does not surprise me one bit but I just don't see how bindge drinking and at what age you can drink have anything in common.[/quote]

Can you blame them? I mean how do you or can you effectively stop college kids from drinking?

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=saden1;465444]Can you blame them? I mean how do you or can you effectively stop college kids from drinking?[/quote]
Maybe thats one of the problems now days that we say we cannot stop them from this or that and we just keep giving them more room to do what they want. If we lower the age that would then bring some kids in High School legal to drink and its also gives kids more people to buy them beer. It was 18 when I was growing up but back then we did not need metal detectors in school, guys came to school with shot guns hanging in the back of their trucks (was no big deal), we could have a knife in school, teachers could discipline a kid without fear of committing a crime, .... etc.... etc.... Times have changed and I'm not sure if it would make a difference either way.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

You're right firstdown, the only difference it would make is fewer under-age violations (and consequently, less revenue for states).

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

remember, some high school seniors are 18. i don't know about you guys, but i wasn't drinking.... well i cant lie anymore. but im sure that's part of the debate

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21 is a joke anyway. How many of us were drinking by 18? Hell how about by 16?

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;465589]21 is a joke anyway. How many of us were drinking by 18? Hell how about by 16?[/QUOTE]

I can remember steeling beer from my Dad when I was 14.:spank: In my opinion if you’re old enough to be held accountable as an adult in the eyes of the law you should be old enough to drink.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

Firstdown, you really think lowering the drinking age would keep people from getting it? First of all, if you want alcohol -- it's very easy to get. First of all, fake IDs look very realistic and are easy/cheap to get. Secondly, find a friend/brother/bum most people will buy it anyways. In HS, some of my friends got a Costco account on a fake ID. He never had to be carded again, and could buy beer whenever.

Firstdown -- part of the reason for the drinking age is so that High School seniors can drink. While they're still under their parents supervision and have some rules, unlike in college when they're on their own.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72;465589]21 is a joke anyway. How many of us were drinking by 18? Hell how about by 16?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the first time I drank alcohol was at 15. My parents always kept a bottle of Wild Turkey. I also smoked my first cigarette around the same time. Got that from my parents too.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

I have traveled a lot and can say that, outside of the middle east, the US has the strictest drinking laws in the world. What possible reason can exist for maintaining the current drinking age is seriously beyond me.

I'll never forgot the time I went to a bar in college, scanned my ID on their new high tech machine, and saw a picture of me half-asleep and wasted come up on the screen. I had a tanktop on and was holding a huge untouched beer. I had no idea where they had gotten it! That's when I knew we had gone too far in our war against 20 year old drinking.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;465589]21 is a joke anyway. How many of us were drinking by 18? Hell how about by 16?[/quote]

I'm only 20 and I've been drinking for a few years now, although I am definitely not a major alcoholic like so many people I know my age. I'm not like everybody else that drinks though, I very rarely drink anymore, I've only drank once in the last 4 months, and that was my 20th b-day back in June, and I've pretty much decided I'm not a fan of alcohol like everybody else. I learned because pretty much the last 3 times I've drank alcohol in the past year I end up going over my limit and "partying with the bucket" as they say, and overall it wasn't as enjoyable an experience as before. So now I'm pretty much keeping it casual, I find it's not fun if I drink too much. I'm pretty much glad I'm not like my other friends that rent a house and drink themselves wasted almost every night that they aren't working or busy.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=mooby;465677]I'm only 20 and I've been drinking for a few years now, although I am definitely not a major alcoholic like so many people I know my age. I'm not like everybody else that drinks though, I very rarely drink anymore, I've only drank once in the last 4 months, and that was my 20th b-day back in June, and I've pretty much decided I'm not a fan of alcohol like everybody else. I learned because pretty much the last 3 times I've drank alcohol in the past year I end up going over my limit and "partying with the bucket" as they say, and overall it wasn't as enjoyable an experience as before. So now I'm pretty much keeping it casual, I find it's not fun if I drink too much. I'm pretty much glad I'm not like my other friends that rent a house and drink themselves wasted almost every night that they aren't working or busy.[/quote]

Oh man you just need some more bad times in your life to drink away. then you will love the beer. I suggest start with a wife, then her mother, and finally top it off with a kid, you will be drinking like a champ. I am joking, kind of. =)

Sounds like your buddies are on skid road.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=Daseal;465609]Firstdown, you really think lowering the drinking age would keep people from getting it? First of all, if you want alcohol -- it's very easy to get. First of all, fake IDs look very realistic and are easy/cheap to get. Secondly, find a friend/brother/bum most people will buy it anyways. In HS, some of my friends got a Costco account on a fake ID. He never had to be carded again, and could buy beer whenever.

Firstdown -- part of the reason for the drinking age is so that High School seniors can drink. While they're still under their parents supervision and have some rules, unlike in college when they're on their own.[/quote]
In my post I said it would make it easier for kids to obtain beer because now they have friend who are 18 and can buy it for them which addes to the problem of lowering the age. I also stated that it would now bring High School kids into the picture because of what you stated above.

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Kids are going to drink no matter what you set the age at. Is there any evidence that teen drinking was reduced when the limit went from 18 to 21?

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=Mattyk72;465714]Kids are going to drink no matter what you set the age at. Is there any evidence that teen drinking was reduced when the limit went from 18 to 21?[/quote]

All those in favor say Yay.......Yay

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

Firstdown -- what I was trying to say, is finding a place/person to get beer is not an issue. In fact, I think more people would wait till the legal age if it were 18 rather than 21. You're being completely ignorant if you don't realize drinking is already a lifestyle in high school.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

Advantages of 21 age requirement include a farther divide from legal purchasers of alcohol and young children/teens, which is a main concern. Every 14yr old goes to school with 18yr olds, who will inevitably provide them with alcohol at some point. Having the age set at 21 separates that 14yr old from people who can or would be willing to provide them with alcohol.

Being a father to a little girl, I certainly don't want every high school senior with a DL and a hard on to have the opportunity to feed my 14yr old daughter beer in hopes that hell get laid.

As far as being accountable, with 30 being the new 20 and many twenty-somethings taking longer to leave the nest and establish their own lives, I think lowering the age would be a move in the wrong direction. I would also argue against the heavy recruitment of high school kids by the military for the same reason. Kids that age need to be putting thoughts to their future without being inebreated or prodded by someone with an agenda.

If I'd have been able to legally drink at 18 I wouldve been stupid about it and probably ruined my life. I was stupid enough without unlimited access.


Let's not also forget that final milestone birthday. Nothing to look forward to after 18 as far as birthdays go...

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=Daseal;465742]Firstdown -- what I was trying to say, is finding a place/person to get beer is not an issue. In fact, I think more people would wait till the legal age if it were 18 rather than 21. You're being completely ignorant if you don't realize drinking is already a lifestyle in high school.[/quote]
I know kids in High School drink and as a said in another post I have no clue if this would increase younger kids drinking or not. It does make it easier to get beer if your under age because you will have friends that are 18.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=EternalEnigma21;465753]Advantages of 21 age requirement include a farther divide from legal purchasers of alcohol and young children/teens, which is a main concern. Every 14yr old goes to school with 18yr olds, who will inevitably provide them with alcohol at some point. Having the age set at 21 separates that 14yr old from people who can or would be willing to provide them with alcohol.

Being a father to a little girl, I certainly don't want every high school senior with a DL and a hard on to have the opportunity to feed my 14yr old daughter beer in hopes that hell get laid.

As far as being accountable, with 30 being the new 20 and many twenty-somethings taking longer to leave the nest and establish their own lives, I think lowering the age would be a move in the wrong direction. I would also argue against the heavy recruitment of high school kids by the military for the same reason. Kids that age need to be putting thoughts to their future without being inebreated or prodded by someone with an agenda.

If I'd have been able to legally drink at 18 I wouldve been stupid about it and probably ruined my life. I was stupid enough without unlimited access.


Let's not also forget that final milestone birthday. Nothing to look forward to after 18 as far as birthdays go...[/quote]
So if the military cannot use high schools for recuitment then I guess colleges have to be banned also. One could argue that the millitary is the right choice for some while college is the right choice for other kids. I live in a military are and have seen allot of people do very well by going into the military which would have not made it in college.

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Not disagreeing with military being a constructive choice, but anyone in the military knows recruiters tend to stretch the truth. My grandfather was a recruiter and he said they would flat out lie all the time. I come from a strong military family background, and think there are great opportunities there, but these guys can get predatorial on dumb kids.

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[QUOTE=firstdown;465759]So if the military cannot use high schools for recuitment then I guess colleges have to be banned also. One could argue that the millitary is the right choice for some while college is the right choice for other kids. I live in a military are and have seen allot of people do very well by going into the military which would have not made it in college.[/QUOTE]

Oh and I absolutely wouldn't ban them from the schools. Any time there would be a career day etc... they should be there. Maybe its different now, but when I was in school these guys lived at my damn school. There were no colleges hanging out with the kids damn near everyday, getting them out of classes buying them cigarettes and lying to them about how if they sign up they can just party and get paid for 6 years. Gettin paid to get laid, I believe was the preferred marines term for what he did.

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

[quote=EternalEnigma21;465761]Not disagreeing with military being a constructive choice, but anyone in the military knows recruiters tend to stretch the truth. My grandfather was a recruiter and he said they would flat out lie all the time. I come from a strong military family background, and think there are great opportunities there, but these guys can get predatorial on dumb kids.[/quote]

HBO had a excellant Doc on this about a month ago. It open my eyes to kids in a one stop light towns that have this choice Taco Bell cashier or the military for their future careers. If you have any pride you probably goign to end up in the middle east.

Here is a link I strongly suggest everyone watch it, this is the frontline that fills the frontline in the middle east:

[url=http://www.hbo.com/docs/docuseries/swf/summer2008/index.html]HBO Documentaries: Documentary Films Series[/url]

Re: College Presidents asking for a lowered drinking age.
 

Yeah, I've seen a recruiting documentary where the recruiters would stop a kid and and talk to them about enlisting. The kids wouldn't be interested, but the recruiters would trick them into giving up some of their information (i.e.: phone, address, etc.), and the recruiters would put them on the list as if they were interested in enlisting. It seems like it is a very unethical job.

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[QUOTE=Riggo44;465602]I can remember steeling beer from my Dad when I was 14.:spank: In my opinion if you’re old enough to be held accountable as an adult in the eyes of the law you should be old enough to drink.[/QUOTE]

That's the way I see it exactly. You can die for your country at the age of 18, you get tried as an adult in court, one should be able to consume alchohol.

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What would be an advantage of lowering the drinking age?

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Read the article, EE21. College professors say the later drinking age encourages binge drinking, puts students in situations trying to hide alcohol that are typically much more dangerous than a bar/etc, and basically they say you're an adult in every sense of the word. If you do something stupid with alcohol, you're responsible. America has a very high percentage of alcoholism and we have some of the more extreme alcohol laws in the world. (DUIs are much more crippling in many European countries -- part of that comes from great mass transit I would guess) and with our rate of alcoholism, why not change? Yes, more kids between 18-21 will die from alcohol related things -- but there will also be a steep drop-off in deaths from 21-25ish.

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I still don't get the logic behind the statements... that somehow being "exposed" to alcohol earlier will make them more responsible? wtf? I just don't get the logic. Binge drinking may go down at the college level (i doubt it, though) with the lowering of the age limit based on the fact that the people who are likely to wrecklessly abuse alcohol will drink enough to derail their lives before college, keeping them out of schools entirely...

The reason all the binge drinking and general debauchery goes on in college, is that its many young peoples first taste of freedom, and liberty from parental rules... It really has nothing to do with the legality of alcohol. If the only consequence of lowering the age were that less college age kids would be breaking the law, I'd be all for it...but alcohol is already pretty prominent in high schools, where kids are bad enough drivers, impressionable, and irresponsible. Why make that problem worse? And it would. I guarantee we'd see a spike in dropout rates, teen pregnancies, alcohol related fatalities, etc... among high school kids.

Maybe that's the angle? Either way the negatives far outweigh the positives. When I was 18 or even closer to 21 I would've argued all day long for lowering the age, but not now.

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Because it's at 21 I think there's a good portion of kids that have little to no exposure to alcohol UNTIL they get to college. And let's face it college isn't the best place to get your first exposure to alcohol. If your first real exposure to drinking involves doing keg stands and beer bongs, that's probably not a great idea.

Honestly I don't know what the answer is, but it's clear that the 21 age limit really isn't doing anything to deter drinking so why not try a different direction?

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Having lived in Europe for 6 years, I feel somewhat educated on this subject. In each of the countries that I lived or spent a good deal of time in (Iceland, Germany, U.K. and Italy) there was no enforced drinking age. Friends of mine who were brought up in this environment still liked to drink, but there wasn't the insanity that my fellow servicemembers and I would display, oh, every single night. Drinking alcohol does not have all of the connotations that it does here, so there's no real "rebellion" involved in the act of drinking. The people I knew had been drinking for a number of years by the time I knew them (18-20 yrs old) and they handled their alcohol with a maturity that would be uncommon for the average American twenty something.

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[QUOTE=Daseal;465368][url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080819/ap_on_re_us/college_presidents_drinking_age]College presidents seek debate on drinking age - Yahoo! News[/url]

Pretty interesting. Have to say I agree. [b]You're either an adult at 18 or you aren't.[/b] There really aren't many lives saved by the 21 drinking age, the amount of deaths is just delayed by three years. Most people are either responsible when it comes to driving or stupid. Just how it is.

For those of you too lazy to read the article, they basically say that it encourages binge drinking. Interesting debate, I want to see what happens with this. It's not secret that I am a huge opponent to MADD. The idea I support fully, but there's a reason the founder left the organization and say that they've lost their direction.[/QUOTE]

You aren't.

There is no doubt in my mind that as soon as those 18 year olds hit college they will be drinking...hell they already are, but it's MUCH, MUCH harder. If you loosen that law, the kids will have nothing stopping them from getting drunk at all. They just "left the nest" and will do much worse.
I know the argument is that they are already drinking, and it's true, but there are plenty of people that would love to throw a party but don't due to age restrictions and fewer people are selling to younsters (or buying for youngsters) due to the stiff penalties. Take those away and those 18-20 year olds will abuse it.
Most people that are FOR dropping the drinking age to 18 are people that are under 27.

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[QUOTE=Mattyk72;465817]Because it's at 21 I think there's a good portion of kids that have little to no exposure to alcohol UNTIL they get to college. And let's face it college isn't the best place to get your first exposure to alcohol. If your first real exposure to drinking involves doing keg stands and beer bongs, that's probably not a great idea.

[b]Honestly I don't know what the answer is, but it's clear that the 21 age limit really isn't doing anything to deter drinking so why not try a different direction?[/b][/QUOTE]

Yes it is detering people from drinking, and a lot of them, but there are still a lot that are undetered.

You're saying there is a problem, and to solve that problem, let's make the laws looser?

If we would ever change the law, it should go up, or go away completely. I would support either of those options.

(if we allowed it to go away completely, it would take a generation to get to where people are responsible like other countries with no drinking age, so we have to be willing to go through those growing pains.)

I personally wouldn't even care if we did another prohibition, but I know that would not be received well and would cause more problems than it creates, but alcohol and alcoholism is a bigger problem in this country than gun control and other issues that people are worried about, maybe our attention needs to be more focused on real issues like this?