There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

Good read from JLC:

Thirteen weeks into the season, there's a growing contingent of people intent on blaming everything on the quarterback and calling for a backup to play. The same people clamoring for Colt Brennan in August and September are now crying out for Todd Collins. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that we're back where we started, yet I am.

Predictably, Coach Jim Zorn spent a good deal of his press conference fielding questions about Campbell, including one from a reporter who asked if a quarterback change was in order. Zorn is tuning out the noise. He knows Campbell isn't perfect - Zorn called the passer's performance against the Giants "very average" - but the problems run much deeper than the one position that draws the most attention (judging by talk radio and my inbox today).


link: [URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/12/not_another_quarterback_contro.html#more"]There's No Quarterback Controversy - Redskins Insider[/URL]

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

There is no need to be calling for Jason's job...
are there thing he could be doing better- Yes. Is our offense woefully inept right now? Yes. Is it jason fault? No. He needs time to both adjust (to the new system), and throw (in the pocket)...so far he's had little of either....

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

but....but.........

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

Im not buying the whole Campbell needs to adjust thing. Brett Favre is flourishing in his new system, so is Matt Ryan, Chad Pennington.....Plenty of quarterback flourish in there first year......i think he may need more time, but the season is one more loss away from being a wash.....Brennann should get some playng time at least to see what hes got and gain some exp. so we are not going through this again in 2 years if Campbells not the guy

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

How 'bout an offensive line controversy? or Wide Receivers controversy?

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=Ruhskins;506364]How 'bout an offensive line controversy? or Wide Receivers controversy?[/quote]
im all for benching randle el , thrash and playing strictly the rookies and moss. cant be any worse...at least they would get some exp.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

Any time an offense starts bogging down the first person that gets put on the hot seat is the QB. Hilariously enough, when the offense is putting up a lot of points and the team is winning games the first person to gets put on a high throan is the QB. We have seen JC in both of these seats through out this season. Most of the people who designate the seating arrangements don't know a damn thing about football other than that when a team loses the QB is horrible and when the team wins the QB is god.

I personally find it quite funny, and I laugh when I talk football with people like this...then I walk away shaking my head.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

I thought he broke things down pretty well here:

[QUOTE]There are numerous reasons why the offense isn't scoring, most of which we have covered. There are only a few receivers who can really be trusted to run the right route, make the catch, and not put the team in peril (Santana Moss, Antwaan Randle El and Chris Cooley). There were too many times when receivers failed to get open, Zorn said, and some crushing drops by James Thrash, Malcolm Kelly and Randle El. And I'll add that opposing teams have figured out that if you double Moss on first down and double Cooley on third down, no one else is really going to beat you.

The pass protection is often spotty and, especially when Campbell tries to survey the field and make multiple reads on deep patterns, he usually ends up running for his life before he can even look to the secondary targets (that's killing the vertical presence). And then, when Clinton Portis is really banged up and the Redskins fall behind by even a few scores early and have to chase the game, everything gets magnified because they lose the play-action threat, Campbell gets crushed because he has to drop back too much and the offense implodes.

I asked Zorn about having few receivers to trust, pass-protection breakdowns, drops, having to get too one-dimensional when falling behind, and the cumulative impact that has on anyone's ability to be an effective quarterback. "All of those things are very true," Zorn said.[/QUOTE]

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=JLW428;506366]Any time an offense starts bogging down the first person that gets put on the hot seat is the QB. Hilariously enough, when the offense is putting up a lot of points and the team is winning games the first person to gets put on a high throan is the QB. We have seen JC in both of these seats through out this season. Most of the people who designate the seating arrangements don't know a damn thing about football other than that when a team loses the QB is horrible and when the team wins the QB is god.

I personally find it quite funny, and I laugh when I talk football with people like this...then I walk away shaking my head.[/quote]
its real simple......without Portis, we would be well below a 500 team. Campbell cannot carry the team if he had to. He never has had to carry the team and hes not getting it done.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506368]its real simple......without Portis, we would be well below a 500 team. Campbell cannot carry the team if he had to. He never has had to carry the team and hes not getting it done.[/quote]


No teams win with just a QB. Ask Marino. Even the colts offense a few years ago limped into the playoffs and played a different ballgame when bob sanders came back to shore up their D.

We can definitely win with Campbell. We just need a better team around him. Colt Brennan would not be anywhere near 7 wins right now. I don't know how long you've been watching football (in particular the redskins) but guys like Ryan and Flacco are coming into teams (falcons surprisingly) with excellent ground games and good defenses. Neither are winning their division either, and both have very similar records to the redskins...

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

Let me clarify something too.. I think JC could be a fine QB on another team or in another system. This offense just doesnt suit him. He has a slow release and doesnt read the defense quick enough. WCO has alot of minimal protection schemes so the running backs and fullbacks can catch passes.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

Zorn has it right. Campbell has played average. He has not played bad. Other aspects of the team have been bad but not Campbell. I am surprised that this is even being discussed, although I shouldn't be.

And I'm not buying Campbell needs to adjust either. Earlier in the year when the entire offense was executing Campbell was being discussed as an MVP candidate. The problem is not the system, it's execution of that system. That is not a problem that can be blamed on Campbell. Not one bit. Charlie, what do all the guys you mentioned have in common? They are not having to win by themselves. Moreover,we have seen how average the aforementioned players can look when their teams get beat in other phases. To look at a few guys having success in their first year - admirably - and then somehow jump to Campbell needs to win games for us in spite of myriad breakdowns in other areas is crazy. Why don't you ask former Probowlers Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Bulger, or Carson Palmer about winning in spite of their teams' lines and receivers?

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=EternalEnigma21;506369]No teams win with just a QB. Ask Marino. Even the colts offense a few years ago limped into the playoffs and played a different ballgame when bob sanders came back to shore up their D.

We can definitely win with Campbell. We just need a better team around him. Colt Brennan would not be anywhere near 7 wins right now. I don't know how long you've been watching football (in particular the redskins) but guys like Ryan and Flacco are coming into teams (falcons surprisingly) with excellent ground games and good defenses. Neither are winning their division either, and both have very similar records to the redskins...[/quote]
but each of those teams are showing signs of improvement each week and the skins have the NFLs leading rusher. He takes 2 steps forward and 5 back alot.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506368]its real simple......without Portis, we would be well below a 500 team. Campbell cannot carry the team if he had to. He never has had to carry the team and hes not getting it done.[/quote]

Okay, Portis is the heart of the offense (no argument there). However, it doesn't help Campbell much when Thrash, Kelly, Randle el, and Thomas drop his passes ALOT of the time - most of which would have sustained the drive with a first down. <-- Thats just what it looks like to me, I'd like to see the numbers to back it up, but I don't think I am very far off with that statement.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=djnemo65;506372]Zorn has it right. Campbell has played average. He has not played bad. Other aspects of the team have been bad but not Campbell. I am surprised that this is even being discussed, although I shouldn't be.

And I'm not buying Campbell needs to adjust either. Earlier in the year when the entire offense was executing Campbell was being discussed as an MVP candidate. The problem is not the system, it's execution of that system. That is not a problem that can be blamed on Campbell. Not one bit. Charlie, what do all the guys you mentioned have in common? They are not having to win by themselves. Moreover,we have seen how average the aforementioned players can look when their teams get beat in other phases. To look at a few guys having success in their first year - admirably - and then somehow jump to Campbell needs to win games for us in spite of myriad breakdowns in other areas is crazy. Why don't you ask former Probowlers Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Bulger, or Carson Palmer about winning in spite of their teams' lines and receivers?[/quote]
he has the tools around him. Im not saying Brennan is the answer, but the season is almost a wash, hes worth a look

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=JLW428;506374]Okay, Portis is the heart of the offense (no argument there). However, it doesn't help Campbell much when Thrash, Kelly, Randle el, and Thomas drop his passes ALOT of the time - most of which would have sustained the drive with a first down. <-- Thats just what it looks like to me, I'd like to see the numbers to back it up, but I don't think I am very far off with that statement.[/quote]
they do drop alot of balls(very correct there). all im saying with the playoffs picture looking dark why not take a look at what we have on the bench and not just at QB...in alot of positions

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506375]he has the tools around him. Im not saying Brennan is the answer, [B]but the season is almost a wash[/B], hes worth a look[/quote]

I really don't think the season is almost a wash. At 7-5? Come on man...

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=JLW428;506377]I really don't think the season is almost a wash. At 7-5? Come on man...[/quote]
only 2 teams are getting in from our divison...another loss of 2 and we are done. i would just like to see what Colt Brennan, Rob Jackson,Kelly,Devin Thomas and Fred Davis in place of yoder can do......Horton shocked us all,its worth a look.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

We can still lose one more game and be fine. At 10-6 we can win the NFC wildcard, with a few stars aligned right. Just look at last season.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=JLW428;506383]We can still lose one more game and be fine. At 10-6 we can win the NFC wildcard, with a few stars aligned right. Just look at last season.[/quote]
thats what im hoping for....but if not i hope zorn would take a look at our young guys to see what we have to prepare for the offseason.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=JLW428;506383]We can still lose one more game and be fine. At 10-6 we can win the NFC wildcard, with a few stars aligned right. [B]Just look at last season.[/B][/quote]

Last season we barely made the playoffs and lost in the first round. So yes, it would be JUST like last season.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=Ruhskins;506385]Last season we barely made the playoffs and lost in the first round. So yes, it would be JUST like last season.[/quote]


after losing a head coach and 2 "associate" head coaches, and giving the job to a guy who had never been a coordinator, I'd still call that a step in the right direction. Especially with implementing a new offensive system.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

Charlie, give me a break. You seriously want the coach to quit on the season before we are even eliminated from the playoffs?

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=djnemo65;506389]Charlie, give me a break. You seriously want the coach to quit on the season before we are even eliminated from the playoffs?[/quote]

I'm with you.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=djnemo65;506389]Charlie, give me a break. You seriously want the coach to quit on the season before we are even eliminated from the playoffs?[/quote]
thats not what i said....after another loss or two

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

I'm hard on Jason but believe he deserves the ENTIRE rest of this season as our starting QB.

He also gets at least half of next season as the starter.

HOWEVER, we need to pick up a veteran WCO QB this off-season. Collins must go. There should be a healthy QB competition in the PS.

JC is a good QB, but he's got to move higher in the next year. Of course, some other offensive players have a lot more issues [like dropped passes, pass blocking, etc] to resolve if this team is going to score more points.

By this time next year we must know whether Jason is our future long-term franchise QB. He's got to prove he's [I]not[/I] the one. The QB is simply the most important position on the team. An elite QB can take you to the playoffs at least a few times in a five year period.

Colt may get his chance but this is Jason's time to rise up or not.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

Wow JLC seems to have calmed down back to usual on-spot analysis. Good stuff.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=EternalEnigma21;506369]No teams win with just a QB. Ask Marino. Even the colts offense a few years ago limped into the playoffs and played a different ballgame when bob sanders came back to shore up their D.

We can definitely win with Campbell. We just need a better team around him. Colt Brennan would not be anywhere near 7 wins right now. I don't know how long you've been watching football (in particular the redskins) but guys like Ryan and Flacco are coming into teams (falcons surprisingly) with excellent ground games and good defenses. Neither are winning their division either, and both have very similar records to the redskins...[/quote] If Marino was our Qb , we would be scoring 27 pts per game . We have a great ground game and the # 3 defense . WR's and JC are not getting it done at the moment

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=budw38;506399]If Marino was our Qb , we would be scoring 27 pts per game . We have a great ground game and the # 3 defense . WR's and JC are not getting it done at the moment[/quote]

How is JC supposed to get it done without a WR core? Yell at them to get open down feild? Force them to catch the ball? The WRs are the ones that are making JC look worse than he really is.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=charlielyons;506391]thats not what i said....after another loss or two[/quote]

While we are at it, why don't we rest ALL of our starters? That's not how football teams are run. If fans ran the Redskins, they'd run it straight into the ground.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

Come one now guys!!!!!! I mean WTF!!!!! Patrick Ramsey had these things to deal with also under Spurrier and nobody went to these great lengths to prop him up. JC isn't the only problem for sure, but my god, he isn't getting the job done and has been here for 6 years. Do you really want to waste another 2-3 seasons with a guy that more than likely isn't going to be better than average? I am not calling for JC's head either, but we do need to seriously think about opening up the QB position to some honest competition in camp next year. [B]We need to realize that if JC falters next season he is more than likely gone anyway.[B]Snyder isn't going to pay top dollar for an average QB.[/B] [/B]

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=JLW428;506401]How is JC supposed to get it done without a WR core? Yell at them to get open down feild? Force them to catch the ball? The WRs are the ones that are making JC look worse than he really is.[/quote]

No Jc makes himself look bad sometimes. Hell Brady outside of last year did it without big named recievers. Hines Ward is Pittsburgh only and yet Big Ben still moves the ball. He else does Jake Delhomme have to pass to other then Steve Smith? Dree Brees recievers was injured al season but he put work in. Lets stop covering for this damn kid and speak of the elephant in the room.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=prinzeofmoval;506408]No Jc makes himself look bad sometimes. Hell Brady outside of last year did it without big named recievers.[/quote]

Well if Tom Brady can do it, then everyone should be able to do it. Right?

[quote=prinzeofmoval;506408]Hines Ward is Pittsburgh only and yet Big Ben still moves the ball.[/quote]

How about former 1st round picks Santonio Holmes and Heath Miller? Not to mention the fact that Jason Campbell is having a MUCH, MUCH better year than Ben Roethelisberger.

[quote=prinzeofmoval;506408]He else does Jake Delhomme have to pass to other then Steve Smith?[/quote]

Jake Delhomme doesn't have a bunch of targets, but he's not having a stellar year either. Have you seen any of the Panthers games? Delhomme makes Campbell look like an All-Pro stud.

[quote=prinzeofmoval;506408]Dree Brees recievers was injured al season but he put work in. Lets stop covering for this damn kid and speak of the elephant in the room.[/quote]

If you want to compare our QB to the likes of Tom Brady and Drew Brees be prepared to be disappointed year after year.

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[quote=GusFrerotte;506405]Come one now guys!!!!!! I mean WTF!!!!! Patrick Ramsey had these things to deal with also under Spurrier and nobody went to these great lengths to prop him up. JC isn't the only problem for sure, but my god, he isn't getting the job done and has been here for 6 years. Do you really want to waste another 2-3 seasons with a guy that more than likely isn't going to be better than average? I am not calling for JC's head either, but we do need to seriously think about opening up the QB position to some honest competition in camp next year. [B]We need to realize that if JC falters next season he is more than likely gone anyway.[B]Snyder isn't going to pay top dollar for an average QB.[/B] [/B][/quote]Are you saying falters next season, or falters in any game next season?

Campbell has posted 2 1/2 above average seasons since he has been here. Some games have given him more trouble than others, obviously. Not throwing interceptions and cutting down on fumbles are important and have played a big role in the historically low Points Against total we've had in the last four years. There's no reason to assume that in Campbell's second season under Zorn, that he would just play like all of his worst plays from the first season all year long. I don't think you are inferring that.

If you want him to never have a bad game, I think your expectations are too high. He may never play a bad game again, but I think that if all you are looking for is a chance to say that Campbell should not be the quarterback of the Redskins, I think you'll have plenty of evidence to fulfill your prophecy. But you won't have any perspective in doing so, and we can't take your opinion seriously in that case.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=GTripp0012;506414]Are you saying falters next season, or falters in any game next season?

Campbell has posted 2 1/2 above average seasons since he has been here. Some games have given him more trouble than others, obviously. Not throwing interceptions and cutting down on fumbles are important and have played a big role in the historically low Points Against total we've had in the last four years. There's no reason to assume that in Campbell's second season under Zorn, that he would just play like all of his worst plays from the first season all year long. I don't think you are inferring that.

If you want him to never have a bad game, I think your expectations are too high. He may never play a bad game again, but I think that if all you are looking for is a chance to say that Campbell should not be the quarterback of the Redskins, I think you'll have plenty of evidence to fulfill your prophecy. But you won't have any perspective in doing so, and we can't take your opinion seriously in that case.[/quote]

I am saying faltering for the whole '09 campaign. He will have a whole two years under his belt with Zorn and his system, as will the Wr corp, etc. Snyder's first move as Owner was dumping Frerotte, then dumped Johnson because of the money. I can't see The Danny spending a lot of $ to keep a mediocre QB around if he dumped the likes of Frerotte and Johnson.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

On the one hand JLC's analysis is cogent, on the other hand it doesn't count for shit. Here's what I mean: we have a quarterback/quarterback's coach at the head of this ship. He knows exactly what he wants in a QB. Today Zorn is saying Jason is the guy because Jason, by all reasonable account, is the best option at QB today. Do I think what we hear/know as of today determines anything beyond this season? Nope.

Certainly our problems on offense do not center around an incompetent QB (at this point). The WR corp overall is just as pathetic as it's been for years. The line is only good against average/lousy defenses. Jason has few good targets and very little time to find them. But... any jackass can see Jason holds the ball way too long at this point to be a great QB. Come on, in this league, with the insane skill in coverage and pass rush lots of teams have, your QB has to be able to make a split second decision and rocket the pigskin on a string w/ near pinpoint accuracy to sustain many drives. I don't believe I've ever seen Jason Campbell do that, and if i'm wrong and he has then at least admit he's done it very rarely. Better targets and some consistent pass protection will tell the world whether Jason can be a great QB. But here's what i'm saying: Zorn may know the answer long before Jason has the perfect situation to work with. Zorn may well know the answer today...

I personally will not be surprised by any QB change that happens [I]after[/I] this season, and on the flip side won't be surprised if nothing changes there. Zorn knows what he wants and knows what he's doing. Jason may or may not be the guy and we're just gonna have to wait and see.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;506421]I am saying faltering for the whole '09 campaign. He will have a whole two years under his belt with Zorn and his system, as will the Wr corp, etc. Snyder's first move as Owner was dumping Frerotte, then dumped Johnson because of the money. I can't see The Danny spending a lot of $ to keep a mediocre QB around if he dumped the likes of Frerotte and Johnson.[/quote]

What makes you think JC will struggle all of next year? Also, it was a mistake to dump Brad Johnson, but Gus? You realize that Gus has NEVER posted a rating above 80 in any season in which he passed for 1,000 or more yards, right?

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

I don't particularly like LaCanfora, but I thought that was a great article. I couldn't agree more.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

GT,

Have to give me some credit here. I know I say off the wall stuff sometimes, but I am not going to dump JC for one bad game like Gibbs dumped Ramsey. If the '09 season is again a wash with the team getting used to Zorn's system and JC is average/mediocre then with history as my guide JC isn't going to be resigned. Snyder isn't going to invest 3-4 more seasons at a higher salary rate for a guy that can't produce.

Re: There's No Quarterback Controversy
 

There's a QB controversy? who are you going to throw in? Todd Collins? the man, the myth, the system guy? or perhaps throw in the new Rookie? the one that could not do anything against 2nd and 3rd stringers? LOL, I had to add the Mason references here. Yes, I brought up his name again. lol. but...just to be a smart butt...he has done nothing in this league to warrant all this hype and attention let alone love. He has not led any team against 1st stringers. So ....basically we are stuck with JC. The mediocre QB who can manage a team down the field. He will never be a Tom Brady, Payton Manning, or Eli for that matter. He has no fire when we are down two scores going into the 4th quarter. It's ho-hum lets see what we can do. maybe we will get a score here. He has no 2 min drill to speak of. If he has not gotten ahead prior to half or 3rd quarter forget it.

Throw the ball away....are you kidding? only if the WR is all by himself will he throw over their head or in the dirt. Otherwise...it's...sack time. LOL.