Zorn has to take some blame
 

I love Zorny, and I think he will be a great coach here but he needs to figure out what is going on. You cant put full blame on execution the last 5 games. he needs to change something up, because our offense is terrible.

JC gets no time, rollouts etc are a good idea. And if the line and the WRs are playing like ass you are in the end responsible for doing something.

Today was bad, and we started really poorly, but that is no excuse. Zorn needs to man up and take some blame. I didn't see the presser today but I hope he did so...



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Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

I don't know if calling rollouts is the answer. Zorn bails out the offense with so many perfectly timed screens and draws. I'm not sure how much more imaginative we can be with the playcalling. If we can't execute simple one cut routes properly, I'm not sure that we could execute any sort of gadget play either.

With that said, Zorn seems to be fighting himself on decisions the whole game. He can't even decide whether he wants to let the clock run out or run some sort of bizarre 30 second offense. The challenge he made, while ultimately helpful to the cause, was just a bizarre decision. He punted in opponents territory with a minute to go in the 2nd quarter and one yard to gain...while we were getting [I]shut out![/I]

Jim Zorn is maybe 9th or 10th on the list of reasons we lost today, but he definately did not have a good game.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

Something just isn't right with the offense, obviously. Things have gone totally stale over the second half of the season. At least earlier in the year we could move the ball pretty well. Now we can't even do that consistently.

Of course Zorn has to shoulder some of the blame.

His protection schemes seem pretty piss poor to me right now and is a big part of the problem. I know people hated Gibbs' max protect stuff, but I'm longing for some of that right now and I'm sure JC is too.

And of course we all need to keep in mind Zorn is a rookie HC who's never been a coordinator and has never called plays at this level. He's very much a work in progress.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

Problem is Zorn doesn't usually take blame at his pressers. he comes off as arrogant at times.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=GTripp0012;509183]I don't know if calling rollouts is the answer. Zorn[B] bails out the offense with so many perfectly timed screens[/B] and draws. I'm not sure how much more imaginative we can be with the playcalling. If we can't execute simple one cut routes properly, I'm not sure that we could execute any sort of gadget play either.

With that said, Zorn seems to be fighting himself on decisions the whole game. He can't even decide whether he wants to let the clock run out or run some sort of bizarre 30 second offense. The challenge he made, while ultimately helpful to the cause, was just a bizarre decision. [B] He punted in opponents territory with a minute to go in the 2nd quarter and one yard to gain.[/B]..while we were getting [I]shut out![/I]

Jim Zorn is maybe 9th or 10th on the list of reasons we lost today, but he definately did not have a good game.[/quote]

The 2 bolded parts I completely agree with. the first part (using rb release screens to take advantage of overly-aggressive defenses) was great considering its BEEN 4 WEEKS SINCE WE FINALLY SAW SOME KIND OF COACHING ADJUSTMENT TO SUCCESS THE TEAMS ScOUTING AGAINST US SAW WHEn THEY BROUGHT PRESSURE. for some reason the ravens decided to keep things up the middle instead of exploiting us on the outside run like we/ve seen the past few weeks. maybe its because they went up ealry 14-0 and knew we wouldnt get 14. this lose was one of the most debilitating and "reality setting in"losses ive experienced since weve had the samuels, jansen etc. out stregthens next year will be aged considering samuels, kendal jansen rabach, fletcher griffin made up our team core of players. all we got is landry (who is a great player but no ST), a suspect mcintosh and rogers. horton produces but he is in the producing position for our D (anyone can play well and close to the ball with landry on roaming responsibilties).

our window has closed, if you disagree look back to your posts when gibbs 2 took over and see IF THIS YEAR WASNT THE YEAR FOR US 4 YEARS AGO. fact is our o line studs are old and half our D players (fletch n griff) studs are old/

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

Honestly I don't care what he says as long as he works on fixing the problems. People always get their panties in a wad over the pressers. People hated that Gibbs always took the blame and never threw players under the bus, now people want Zorn to take the blame, hilarious.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

Zorn and this whole offense are a work in progress. I know it's not very satisfying right now, but we have a good draft, pick up a couple of FA's and I think we're gonna look pretty good next year. I'm always optimistic but I never thought we'd win the Super Bowl this year.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

right now i think zorn is too close to the fire. Other teams have studied the rookie OC and Head Coach. Some of his favorite plays are being detected by the defenses and he's too predictable in some cases.

However, i also see plays that show imagination and he certainly has the guts to take chances. It must be heartbreaking to see how it all falls apart due to penalties and other execution problems.

I think Zorn will take the blame and will bring in someone else as OC this off season. He'll have to make improvements in the personnel in the offense. He'll see why some many Head Coaches are so tough and cranky.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

Don't get me wrong I love the guy, and I've seen some amazing plays but for some reason playcalling is just not clicking.

Gotta just admit that. It's not a big deal.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

Could it be the they were trying to keep it simple in the first part of the season?

- You know, "Hey we all just got together and don't know the offense, so let's keep it simple".
- Mid-season, "All right, that didn't turn out too bad, let's kick it up a notch".
- Today, "Shit, who's idea was this"?

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

I would agree with criticism of Zorn over some of the bizarre game management type decisions (using your last challenge to push them back 5 yards), but I also think he is doing the best he can with limited offensive personnel.

Looking back those early wins were great but neither the Saints, nor the Cards have great or even good defenses, and I think now we might have to acknowledge that some of the stuff that worked against the Eagles and in the first Cowgirls game worked in part because of the lack of tape on Zorny's offense. Kind of like a pitcher getting off to a hot start in baseball, and then getting lit up his 2nd or 3rd time around the league.

The more concerning problem is the simple lack of playmakers on offense. Everyone knows CP is the horse and they load up to stop him. People shade a safety over Moss all the time because there is no second receiver that scares them. In addition, now when Moss does get open down the field, JC does not have the time to get him the ball.

I think Zorn will continue to improve as a play-caller as he gains experience, and he does seem to have a good knack for in-game adjustments (something that seemed to be lacking in Gibbs 2.0), as witnessed by the use of screens tonight. But until we get and/or develop some secondary receiving threats, we're going to continue to see more of the same.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=53Fan;509208]Zorn and this whole offense are a work in progress. I know it's not very satisfying right now, but we have a good draft, pick up a couple of FA's and I think we're gonna look pretty good next year. I'm always optimistic but I never thought we'd win the Super Bowl this year.[/quote]

Problem is that our core strength or reason we've been competitive the past 6 years will be gone. samuels, kendall, rabach, thomas, jansen, moss, ARE, portis, fletcher, griffin, springs and maybe JC (with his K being up after next year) will most likely be replaced in 2 years.

You dont get guys like samuels, thomas, jansen, portis, moss, cooley so easily. we had our group at or close to their "peak" and didnt cash in. maybe we keep cooley but the other peices are going to need to be replaced before zorn makes any run. UNLESS SAMUELS, KENDALL, RABACH, THOMAS JANSEN/HEYER have a resurrgence while JC clicks in the final year. next year is our absolute last chance under the current core skins players.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

Thomas looked good tonight and contrary to what we've seen so far, I don't believe Kelly has stone hands and will get better with time.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=Rock Your Face;509223]I would agree with criticism of Zorn over some of the bizarre game management type decisions (using your last challenge to push them back 5 yards), but I also think he is doing the best he can with limited offensive personnel.

Looking back those early wins were great but neither the Saints, nor the Cards have great or even good defenses, and I think now we might have to acknowledge that some of the stuff that worked against the Eagles and in the first Cowgirls game worked in part because of the lack of tape on Zorny's offense. Kind of like a pitcher getting off to a hot start in baseball, and then getting lit up his 2nd or 3rd time around the league.

The more concerning problem is the simple lack of playmakers on offense. Everyone knows CP is the horse and they load up to stop him. People shade a safety over Moss all the time because there is no second receiver that scares them. In addition, now when Moss does get open down the field, JC does not have the time to get him the ball.

I think Zorn will continue to improve as a play-caller as he gains experience, and he does seem to have a good knack for in-game adjustments (something that seemed to be lacking in Gibbs 2.0), as witnessed by the use of screens tonight. But until we get and/or develop some secondary receiving threats, we're going to continue to see more of the same.[/quote]

If you listen to the commentators they say the same thing: our offense has very limited weapons. Clinton Portis. When Zorn has more offensive contributors then we'll see how he does. He'll be looking for some this Spring.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=Rock Your Face;509223]I would agree with criticism of Zorn over some of the bizarre game management type decisions (using your last challenge to push them back 5 yards), but I also think he is doing the best he can with limited offensive personnel.

Looking back those early wins were great but neither the Saints, nor the Cards have great or even good defenses, and I think now we might have to acknowledge that some of the stuff that worked against the Eagles and in the first Cowgirls game worked in part because of the lack of tape on Zorny's offense. Kind of like a pitcher getting off to a hot start in baseball, and then getting lit up his 2nd or 3rd time around the league.

[B]The more concerning problem is the simple lack of playmakers on offense. Everyone knows CP is the horse and they load up to stop him. People shade a safety over Moss all the time because there is no second receiver that scares them. In addition, now when Moss does get open down the field, JC does not have the time to get him the ball.[/B]

I think Zorn will continue to improve as a play-caller as he gains experience, and he does seem to have a good knack for in-game adjustments (something that seemed to be lacking in Gibbs 2.0), as witnessed by the use of screens tonight. But until we get and/or develop some secondary receiving threats, we're going to continue to see more of the same.[/quote]
Very similar to the problems we've had in Gibbs 2.0. I guess a majority is players. Then don't we need to fault Vinny on this one? I know I may be asking for too much, but I guess he and Danny have decided to build for the future and I hope they continue that.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

In short, Zorn is overwhelmed. It's painfully obvious in his general game-management as well as his play-calling. I also believe the offense's utter lack of concentration and intensity, w/ the exceptions of CP and JC, is a strong if subtle indicator of Zorn's disconnect w/ them and the overall situation. The d typically plays above its talent for Blache IMO. The offense plays sloppy, stupid football because Zorn hasn't inspired them. I believe it remains to be seen whether Zorn can [I]lead[/I] a team. On the one hand you've got offensive gurus like Norv and Al Saunders who are/would make very lousy HC's, and on the other you've got geniuses like Reid who are also great HC's.

My biggest hope for the Redskins at this point is Zorn's development as a leader.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=over the mountain;509224]Problem is that our core strength or reason we've been competitive the past 6 years will be gone. samuels, kendall, rabach, thomas, jansen, moss, ARE, portis, fletcher, griffin, springs and maybe JC (with his K being up after next year) will most likely be replaced in 2 years.

You dont get guys like samuels, thomas, jansen, portis, moss, cooley so easily. we had our group at or close to their "peak" and didnt cash in. maybe we keep cooley but the other peices are going to need to be replaced before zorn makes any run. UNLESS SAMUELS, KENDALL, RABACH, THOMAS JANSEN/HEYER have a resurrgence while JC clicks in the final year. next year is our absolute last chance under the current core skins players.[/quote]

I understand what you're saying but they'll be replaced here and there with picks or FA. Samuels isn't done he's just been injured. Heyer's not going anywhere and we'll probably resign Kendall. Rinehart should come along soon and we have some other young guys also. The rest will probably be phased out as we get other players.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

We have sufficient weapons. Portis, Cooley and several serviceable wideouts should get it done. What we need is some new blood on the offensive line.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

:laughing- Nice SIG Sheriff!

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;509231]We have sufficient weapons. Portis, Cooley and several serviceable wideouts should get it done. What we need is some new blood on the offensive line.[/quote]I still think we rely on Moss too much. That didn't hurt us in this game. But it's really hurt us in a bunch of other losses, and some winning efforts as well.

There are things you can do with Moss to create plays, and I want him on my team deep into the future, but 2005 was the last time we could build an offense around him.

Now, I think if the running game is working, a receiving core of Moss and Randle El is more than adequate. But as much as I like Portis and thought he was the MVP of the NFL in the first half, we've never been able to lean on him to produce for 16 games. We've just gone as he's gone on offense, which has put us on this sort of a roller coaster ride.

I'd really like to be a passing team, and I know we have the quarterback to do that, but the offensive line AND receivers are inadequate to do so. With the receivers, at least, the solutions may be in house. With the offensive line, I agree with you that even if Rinehart is a starter in the waiting, the rest of the solutions aren't in house.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

By the way Goat, Andy Reid was 5-11 his first year as head coach. :)

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

I think Zorn is A FREAKIN IDIOT!!!!

How in the heck does Zorn not understand an outside blitz is coming on 3rd and long? I saw it! AND I DON'T GET PAID TO SEE IT COMING!!! How does he consistently let his quarterback get killed back there? How can you NOT throw someone else on the line next to...........................uhhhhh the side where the outside blitz is coming from this time? All you got to do is motion it! Every third and long OR whenever the opposing defense has to get pressure, they blitz the outside and GET IT EVERY SINGLE TIME!

Putting two guys to block three on that outside blitz doesn't work. You would think someone, WHO GETS PAID TO NOTICE THINGS, would have noticed that during the Steelers game. If not, During the Cowboys game? Heck, definetely during this one!

How do you let a back up center play left tackle? And THEN not give him help when he's blocking Terrell Suggs? That was a CRUCIAL CRUCIAL play! And you leave him out there to block one of the best pass rushers alone?????? WHAT A FREAKIN IDIOT!!!

Zorn! Don't become Steve Spurrier! Don't say crap like, "he needs to get the ball out quicker". Thats not working! And it won't work until you understand that pass protection is key! As a quarterback I thought you knew that............................what am I saying. Steve Spurrier was a quarterback and.....................Geez, you suck Zorn!

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

I am sure Zorn is frustrated too, let's see if he gets his say in the draft. All the good teams in the league rely on good lines.

I am surprised our D is quite good with an average line. Imagine if we had some amazing pass rushers, it would be almost like Pitt's D.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;509231]We have sufficient weapons. Portis, Cooley and several serviceable wideouts should get it done. What we need is some new blood on the offensive line.[/quote]

I agree, the weapons are good enough (they are not great though). Its hard to score when the line cant block anything. They are old and slow and really showed it last night. Until this team gets serious about building both lines (not just plugging holes with high priced free agents) it will never be a serious consistent contender.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=hooskins;509202]Problem is Zorn doesn't usually take blame at his pressers. he comes off as arrogant at times.[/quote]

Yeah, noticed that too, especially with George Michael and Sonny. There's a difference between arrogance and confidence.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=Mattyk72;509192]Something just isn't right with the offense, obviously. Things have gone totally stale over the second half of the season. At least earlier in the year we could move the ball pretty well. Now we can't even do that consistently.

Of course Zorn has to shoulder some of the blame.

[B]His protection schemes seem pretty piss poor to me right now and is a big part of the problem. I know people hated Gibbs' max protect stuff, but I'm longing for some of that right now and I'm sure JC is too.[/B]

And of course we all need to keep in mind Zorn is a rookie HC who's never been a coordinator and has never called plays at this level. He's very much a work in progress.[/quote]


If that is the case, then why isn't Bugel in Zorns ear a little bit? Or maybe he has been. IDK. It just seems silly to have an Oline coach of that cailber and have your QB getting killed game in and game out.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=hagams;509221]Could it be the they were trying to keep it simple in the first part of the season?

- You know, "Hey we all just got together and don't know the offense, so let's keep it simple".
- Mid-season, "All right, that didn't turn out too bad, let's kick it up a notch".
- Today, "Shit, who's idea was this"?[/quote]

I don' know, things look pretty vanilla to me.

I'm still a Zorny, but I am growing increasingly frustrated with his refusal to compensate for the lack of protection Jason is getting. For all the talk of the west coast offense, I don't see a lot of short passes, particularly in running situations (which is what I thought the WCO was supposed to be predicated on).

It is clear that we have an inadequate line for the gameplan we are trying to execute. How many physical defenses have to manhandle us before we make some adjustments?

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

Gibbs ALWAYS accepted responsibility publicly, which is why the team ALWAYS had his back when they struggled and absolutely had to win down the stretch. It would be nice to see Zorn accept some responsibility for this inept offense.

One small example where Zorn MUST accept responsibility - Samuels left with an injury, and Geisinger replaces him at left tackle. Samuels struggled with Suggs one-on-one, yet Zorn gave ZERO help to Geisinger on the first pass play that he was in, which resulted in another Suggs sack. That is a NO BRAINER - Gibbs certainly would have had a TE on that side to help Geisinger. Zorn's belief in his system when an adjustment was warranted reminded me of Spurrier's arrogance in his system as his QB took a beating.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

As I agree JZ needs to bare some of the blame I think that we need to really evaluate what we have at QB, I love JC but my love for him will not let me ignore the obvious. 1. Steve smith from carolina is 5-9 185 # , santana moss is 5-10 200# 2. Donovan Mcnabb only has westbrooke as a viable offensive threat , we have CP......common problem is JC, he is not a great QB he is just good he needs alot of good people around him to be successful.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=skins28;509268]As I agree JZ needs to bare some of the blame I think that we need to really evaluate what we have at QB, I love JC but my love for him will not let me ignore the obvious. 1. Steve smith from carolina is 5-9 185 # , santana moss is 5-10 200# 2. Donovan Mcnabb only has westbrooke as a viable offensive threat , we have CP......common problem is JC, he is not a great QB he is just good he needs alot of good people around him to be successful.[/quote]I disagree that Campbell is the problem. If you've watched any Ravens games during their run, THEY PROTECT JOE FLACCO. Jason is taking a pounding the second half of this season that reminds me of Ramsey's beating when he was QB under Spurrier. I hear a lot of bitching about Jason not hitting anything downfield. Well we tried on the first posession, and Campbell's arm got hit by Suggs, resulting in the first INT. When our O-line depth consists of undrafted FAs like Geisinger and Heyer, is it any wonder why we struggle? Drafting a #3 TE in the second round was a luxury we didn't need as demonstrated by the lack of quality depth on the O-line.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=skins28;509268]As I agree JZ needs to bare some of the blame I think that we need to really evaluate what we have at QB, I love JC but my love for him will not let me ignore the obvious. 1. Steve smith from carolina is 5-9 185 # , santana moss is 5-10 200# 2. Donovan Mcnabb only has westbrooke as a viable offensive threat , we have CP......common problem is JC, he is not a great QB he is just good he needs alot of good people around him to be successful.[/quote]

JC will be successful when he gets time to make the throws he has to make.

I mean, you know you're in trouble when your head coach doesn't have any back up lineman on the bench! I mean, TWO!? THATS IT?! TWO LINEMAN? I've never heard of that crap before in my life! Not even Spurrier or Turner were that dumb!

Okay, so your stud left tackle goes down for the game so you get to have a back up center play left tackle now! OH SHIT! And he's blocking Terrell Suggs..........................Did you all see Campbell, once the ball was snapped, IMMEDIATELY start rolling out away from Terrell Suggs? He new he was hit before the play even started! He was just trying to buy a little more time, but to no avail...........Suggs is just to darn fast!

That play spelled, "Busted" in seventeen different languages! And that is not Campbell's fault!

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=skins28;509268]As I agree JZ needs to bare some of the blame I think that we need to really evaluate what we have at QB, I love JC but my love for him will not let me ignore the obvious.[B] 1. Steve smith from carolina is 5-9 185 # , santana moss is 5-10 200# 2. Donovan Mcnabb only has westbrooke as a viable offensive threat , we have CP......common problem is JC, [/B]he is not a great QB he is just good he needs alot of good people around him to be successful.[/quote]

Wow, that is a great example of false analogies:
[url=http://www.documentingexcellence.com/stat_tool/reasoning.htm]Reasoning, critical thinking[/url]
What does vital stats of smith vs moss, or westbrooke-CP (not even sure how that comparison makes any sense) have to do specifically with JC? Using the same exact comparisons, couldn't you easily argue that it is the coach/OC's responsibility to use his best players in the best way?

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

I created a monster :doh:

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=Angry;509260]If that is the case, then why isn't Bugel in Zorns ear a little bit? Or maybe he has been. IDK. It just seems silly to have an Oline coach of that cailber and have your QB getting killed game in and game out.[/quote]

Maybe Zorn needs to get into Bugel's ear a bit more and get this line blocking better.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=irish;509279]Maybe Zorn needs to get into Bugel's ear a bit more and get this line blocking better.[/quote]

One of the few times I agree with you...

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=skins28;509268]As I agree JZ needs to bare some of the blame I think that we need to really evaluate what we have at QB, I love JC but my love for him will not let me ignore the obvious. 1. Steve smith from carolina is 5-9 185 # , santana moss is 5-10 200# 2. Donovan Mcnabb only has westbrooke as a viable offensive threat , we have CP......common problem is JC, he is not a great QB he is just good he needs alot of good people around him to be successful.[/quote]

I am not following your reasoning at all.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

Zorn was embarrased last night.

Answer: 3 minutes to go in the 1st Half

Question: First Blitz check down thrown by JC and Co. It took us almost a half to adjust to the overloaded blitz. Horrible.

Zorn seems a little over his head now.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=skins28;509268]As I agree JZ needs to bare some of the blame I think that we need to really evaluate what we have at QB, I love JC but my love for him will not let me ignore the obvious. 1. Steve smith from carolina is 5-9 185 # , santana moss is 5-10 200# 2. Donovan Mcnabb only has westbrooke as a viable offensive threat , we have CP......common problem is JC, he is not a great QB he is just good he needs alot of good people around him to be successful.[/quote]

Don't forget about Andre the Giant who weighed over 500 pounds but ended up selling the title to Ted Dibiase in a shocking display of venality. Sure the Giant was good, but was he great? You make the call.

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[B]From JLC's recent blog entry:
[/B]
Beyond personnel, the decision to use Mike Sellers as the third-down pass protector over Portis, banged up or not, was stunning. Putting Justin Geigsinger at left tackle with no help from a tight end against Terrell Suggs was stupefying, even for one play. Not running more two tight-end sets with Geisinger and Stephon Heyer as your tackles was a major surprise. Not opting to go no-huddle in the third quarter, not rolling Jason Campbell out more, not going to the screen-pass game before the end of the first half was odd.

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/12/monday_morning_h-back_7.html#more]Monday Morning H-Back - Redskins Insider[/url]

Re: Zorn has to take some blame
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;509297][B]From JLC's recent blog entry:[/B]

Beyond personnel, the decision to use Mike Sellers as the third-down pass protector over Portis, banged up or not, was stunning. Putting Justin Geigsinger at left tackle with no help from a tight end against Terrell Suggs was stupefying, even for one play. Not running more two tight-end sets with Geisinger and Stephon Heyer as your tackles was a major surprise. Not opting to go no-huddle in the third quarter, not rolling Jason Campbell out more, not going to the screen-pass game before the end of the first half was odd.

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/12/monday_morning_h-back_7.html#more"]Monday Morning H-Back - Redskins Insider[/URL][/quote]

I watched Geisinger go in and was wondering who would give him some help. I guess no one did. No RB or Cooley...no one. Unbelievable.