Players cooling to Zorn
 

[url=http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/12/11/redskins-players-cooling-to-zorn/]ProFootballTalk.com - REDSKINS PLAYERS COOLING TO ZORN[/url]

from PFT.com

I think the first sign was Cooley's comments after the Giants game.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

I remember himself several times giving shout outs to players. Wasn't it in the Cardinals game when Campbell through that long bomb to Moss after dodging pressure that he said in the press conference I wish i could take credit for that, but that was all them, they called the plays and they made it happen.

Now with how things are going, i'm sure everyone will dissect every word and say that "I wish I could take credit for that" was his Freudian slip of his egotistical thinking and his desire to bench portis weeks down the road.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

Winning cures all.

Right now everyone is frustrated.

But I guess it's more fun to assume Danny has the axe ready.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

I think Zorn has been quick to praise his players.

If this story is true...it is amazing how sensitive these guys are.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

Its no wonder the players react to the head coach the way they do. The coaching authority in this organization has never really been solid (except for Gibbs) and often times its been undermined. The players are smart enough to recognize that and will take their shots because they know that management is likely to side with them over the coaches. That's just the way this organization works and why they continue to be mediocre. The inmates are running the asylum.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

I'm never sure how much to trust Pro Football Talk, but this doesn't seem far-fetched. It certainly seems to me that Zorn blames the players when things go wrong and has dodged responsibility himself, as if he wasn't the one who designed the offense and called all the plays.

When a coach talks about losing because of "execution," it's just a fancy way of saying: "Don't blame me, the players screwed up my perfect plans."

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=Spence;510567]I'm never sure how much to trust Pro Football Talk, but this doesn't seem far-fetched. It certainly seems to me that Zorn blames the players when things go wrong and has dodged responsibility himself, as if he wasn't the one who designed the offense and called all the plays.

When a coach talks about losing because of "execution," it's just a fancy way of saying: "Don't blame me, the players screwed up my perfect plans."[/quote]

But if the players aren't executing whats wrong with saying it? He has never called out a player by name and is also quick to praise players when they do well. If professional athletes can't handle critisim then they probably aren't guys that are going to help you win.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=irish;510566]Its no wonder the players react to the head coach the way they do. The coaching authority in this organization has never really been solid (except for Gibbs) and often times its been undermined. The players are smart enough to recognize that and will take their shots because they know that management is likely to side with them over the coaches. That's just the way this organization works and why they continue to be mediocre. The inmates are running the asylum.[/quote]

Totally agree.... good point.

Zorn is the coach, period. Do what he says, that is your job.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=Mattyk72;510562]Winning cures all.

Right now everyone is frustrated.

But I guess it's more fun to assume Danny has the axe ready.[/quote]

Agreed. The locker room is boiling over with just 1 win in the last 5. A solid, not nail-biting win over the Bungles Sunday could do much to smooth that over.

Given the Dan's history, however, I understand that anything is possible; JZ could well be shown the door no matter how this season ends.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=BigRedskinDaddy;510571]Agreed. The locker room is boiling over with just 1 win in the last 5. A solid, not nail-biting win over the Bungles Sunday could do much to smooth that over.

Given the Dan's history, however, I understand that anything is possible; JZ could well be shown the door no matter how this season ends.[/quote]

Agree.... The skins would go into a tail spin with a loss to the Bengals.

It would be a panic move to fire Zorn though....no matter what happens the rest of the season.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

Players cooling to Zorn?
BSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSPAULISDEADBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSFoolish sensationalist reporting from questionable source.......

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=Spence;510567]I'm never sure how much to trust Pro Football Talk, but this doesn't seem far-fetched. It certainly seems to me that Zorn blames the players when things go wrong and has dodged responsibility himself, as if he wasn't the one who designed the offense and called all the plays.

When a coach talks about losing because of "execution," it's just a fancy way of saying: "Don't blame me, the players screwed up my perfect plans."[/quote]

to me, that is OK to say. I dont know how many times we had a receiver open down field for a big play, and someone missed a block or missed the assignment and jason had to scramble, or dump it off. To me that is no executing correctly. there have been plays to be made that haven't been made due to lack of execution. I remember seeing Campbell rolling to his right against the Cowboys (i think) and cooley was wide open running across the middle, and he hit the dump off. that is execution, no a bad play call. However, Zorn has seemed to scale things back a bit just trying to get the team into a rythm and it just doesn't seem to be working. Hopefully we'll use cincy as the team to get the big play offense working and take some confidence into the next game.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

I think the execution comments from Zorn come from stupid penalties once we get inside the other teams 30, or blowing an assignment and giving up a sack to move us out of feild goal range. Did anyone see the pre game show before the Giants game where the commentator (cant remember who -Howie?) laid out that in the last 5 games we had the most points called back due to penalties or we had the most first downs called back due to penalties during that time?

That is the lack of execution the coach is talking about - not the players effort. I wish I had a video of that comment but my jaw dropped. Hard to blame the coaches when we have a mental wall at the 30.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

Lack of execution can also come from flawed schemes. Players can't execute when a linebacker and safety are overloading oneside of the line. A play call must be changed in that instance. The Ravens game is the first game I saw Zorn counteract this. This has been going on since the Pittsburgh game. I think he is a good coach just a first year coach is all.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;510585]Lack of execution can also come from flawed schemes. Players can't execute when a linebacker and safety are overloading oneside of the line. A play call must be changed in that instance. The Ravens game is the first game I saw Zorn counteract this. This has been going on since the Pittsburgh game. I think he is a good coach just a first year coach is all.[/quote]


Great points I totally agree

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

I agree with Matty--find me a losing team that doesn't have this kind of issue. Find me a winning team that does.

Seems to me Zorn takes plenty of responsibility, but he certainly calls out players as well. Very different from Gibbs, who stuck to the "they played their guts out, I take the blame" line. This is growing pains. Zorn will get better at it, and players will either come around or pack their bags.

(All bets are off, of course, if Danny and Vinny meddle. And no one would be surprised if they do.)

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=irish;510566]Its no wonder the players react to the head coach the way they do. The coaching authority in this organization has never really been solid (except for Gibbs) and often times its been undermined. The players are smart enough to recognize that and will take their shots because they know that management is likely to side with them over the coaches. That's just the way this organization works and why they continue to be mediocre. The inmates are running the asylum.[/quote]

yeah i think offensive guys who have been here for awhile like moss and portis have lost some confidence in the redskins organization to put together a real contender given our stretch of average. which in some way could be a good thing b/c it shows they have expectations of greatness and believe in each other as players, just getting frustrated that the pieces are there but the front office just cant seem to put the pieces together right.

i d rather have players strive for greatness and be disappointed when that greatness is not realized, then have players who come into a season with low expectations and dont get mad when they lose.

go skins!!

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=maroonandblack30;510569]But if the players aren't executing whats wrong with saying it? He has never called out a player by name and is also quick to praise players when they do well. If professional athletes can't handle critisim then they probably aren't guys that are going to help you win.[/quote]There's nothing wrong with drawing attention to screw-ups by the players. I just wish he was more forthcoming about his own mistakes and those of his coaching staff. I don't insist that Zorn be a clone of Joe Gibbs, but a little collective responsibility would be nice. If I had to choose a person to blame for our problems right now and the choices were Portis and Zorn, I wouldn't choose Portis.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;510585]Lack of execution can also come from flawed schemes. Players can't execute when a linebacker and safety are overloading oneside of the line. A play call must be changed in that instance. The Ravens game is the first game I saw Zorn counteract this. This has been going on since the Pittsburgh game. I think he is a good coach just a first year coach is all.[/quote]Precisely. It's not Clinton Portis' fault that Zorn and Bugel decided it would be a good idea to match Geisinger one-on-one with Terrell Suggs.

I have no problem with coaches publicly criticizing players -- so long as they treat themselves and the entire coaching staff similarly. Either everyone gets criticized publicly [when they deserve it] or you go with the "we all lose together" mantra of Joe Gibbs. Publicly criticizing the players is only acceptable if coaches get the same.

And anyone who thinks the coaching doesn't deserve a decent share of the blame for the team's current problems isn't watching the games.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

PFT is the NFL version of the National Enquirer. Who knows if Zorn lost the locker room but you will never determine that by reading PFT's fictional depictions.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=celts32;510600]PFT is the NFL version of the National Enquirer. Who knows if Zorn lost the locker room but you will never determine that by reading PFT's fictional depictions.[/quote]That's a good point. This report is plausible, but it must still be regarded warily, considering the source.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=over the mountain;510594]yeah i think offensive guys who have been here for awhile like moss and portis have lost some confidence in the redskins organization to put together a real contender given our stretch of average. which in some way could be a good thing b/c it shows they have expectations of greatness and believe in each other as players, just getting frustrated that the pieces are there but the front office just cant seem to put the pieces together right.

i d rather have players strive for greatness and be disappointed when that greatness is not realized, then have players who come into a season with low expectations and dont get mad when they lose.

go skins!![/quote]

I doubt the current FO understands how to put together a real contender. In 10 years of ownership (I cant wait for the patches on the jerseys) they havent shown they can. They will add talent here and there and spend enough $ to stay around 8-8 but they dont get that teams build from within and not by plugging in the best available FA talent. IMO, no player that really want to win a championship would come to the Skins as a FA with how the team is currently run. They might come after winning a championship to get paid but the players are smart enough to know the Skins just arent built to be a title contender.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

Like somebody already stated, in a winning organization there is no finger pointing, a losing team, well you know. Anyway, the point I'd like to make is this : the finger I'd like to point is at the management. They are responsible for keeping an overaged line on both sides of the ball that was sufficient for the first half of the season, but because of their collective age, is now worn down, broken down and completly ineffective. That is where the lack of execution originates. No blocking against the pass rush, no holes for the running game, and no pass rush on defense. It has become a total breakdown in the trenches, where the game is won and lost. So in my oppinion, (and yes I know that it does not count for much), the blame does not lie with Zorn, Campbell, Portis, it lies with Vinny and Danny. I just hope they recognize and correct this problem in the offseason.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

Matty's right about what happens in losing situations. The real test comes this weekend, and not just whether we win but how we win and players' attitude. We need a solid win, period. And it's ok if there's some friction between the HC and the players. Animosity is bad altogether, but a little friction that challenges the players to "prove the asshole wrong" and really go out and execute is a good thing. I think in a way it's what we've seen in NY, Coughlin isn't anyone's friend, but u bet your ass the players have a heap of respect for the iron-willed man at the head of the ship. Time will tell what kind of relationship/coaching style Zorn develops over the group.

The bigger, scarier issue like many have said is whether Danny and Vinny meddle in all this business. Goddamnit if they fire Zorn at the end of the season I hope they can't even find a replacement (because nobody wants to work for them).

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

Maybe, I'm crazy?

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

I agree with you goat on keeping Zorn. I also believe that I would rather have a hard nosed coach like Caughlin, than a buddy buddy softy like Grimmace Phillips in Dalass..

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

Win teams do not win it is easy to start pointing fingers intead of looking inward and trying to fix the problems.

Zorn deserves a chance. If the Skins let him go after the first year then they are in my opinion idiots. We will never be an elite team or a consistent winner if we do not start building some consistency within the organization.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

It's interesting that Pro Football Talk is dismissed around here as a know-nothing site every time they say something critical about the Redskins - - but when they something positive or laudatory, then they bring the gospel.

Maybe - - [I]just maybe [/I]- - there are indeed some significant flaws in the way this team is run in addition to the flaws in the way the team is contructed and the way the team is coached and the way the team has played the last month and a half.

On another point, someone said earlier that in the Gibbs 2.0 regime, there was solid coaching authority and this kind of stuff never happened then. Excuse me...
[INDENT]Did I imagine the incredible brouhaha involving LaVar Arrington and the coaching staff on minor matters such as should he play and should he freelance when he plays?

Was I the only one who heard some players questioning Mark Brunell as the starting QB?

Didn't Al Saunders admit that he called a play thinking Portis was in the game but that Portis had taken himself out and Saunders didn't know about it?[/INDENT]
Here is something Redskins fans have to live with. [I]The Redskins are not a highly disciplined organization in just about any facet of the management structure.[/I] The only thing that is certain is that Danny Boy will fire people whenever he feels like firing them. Other than that ...

This kind of story - - if it indeed has a source inside the Redskins - - is exactly the kind of story that the Skins plant as part of their process for firing a coach or and exec or a player. Keep your eyes and ears open; if you read a couple more of these stories unrelated to this Portis/Zorn spat, then be ready to watch Jim Zorn get fired unless he wins at least one playoff game.

That is the pattern of the past. And the best predictor of future behavior is - - past behavior.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;510662]It's interesting that Pro Football Talk is dismissed around here as a know-nothing site every time they say something critical about the Redskins - - but when they something positive or laudatory, then they bring the gospel.[/quote]

Not true. People are consistenly skeptical of PFT here, regardless of the news

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

When does PFT say anything positive about anyone??

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=The Goat;510611]Matty's right about what happens in losing situations. The real test comes this weekend, and not just whether we win but how we win and players' attitude. We need a solid win, period. And it's ok if there's some friction between the HC and the players. Animosity is bad altogether, but a little friction that challenges the players to "prove the asshole wrong" and really go out and execute is a good thing. I think in a way it's what we've seen in NY, Coughlin isn't anyone's friend, but u bet your ass the players have a heap of respect for the iron-willed man at the head of the ship. Time will tell what kind of relationship/coaching style Zorn develops over the group.

The bigger, scarier issue like many have said is whether Danny and Vinny meddle in all this business. Goddamnit if they fire Zorn at the end of the season I hope they can't even find a replacement (because nobody wants to work for them).[/quote]

They won't fire a rookie HC. Only HC they shitcanned after one year was Marty and that was purely about power. Now if Zorn fails next year and his offense looks just as bad, then he better pack his bags, but I doubt Snyder is going to pull the plug after this season is over. Zorn is safe also, for if Snyder fires Zorn he will look like an ass, and his detractors who criticized him for hiring Zorn will come out looking like a rose. Only posible way Zorn gets fired is if Cowher begs for the job.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;510662]It's interesting that Pro Football Talk is dismissed around here as a know-nothing site every time they say something critical about the Redskins - - but when they something positive or laudatory, then they bring the gospel.

Maybe - - [I]just maybe [/I]- - there are indeed some significant flaws in the way this team is run in addition to the flaws in the way the team is contructed and the way the team is coached and the way the team has played the last month and a half.

On another point, someone said earlier that in the Gibbs 2.0 regime, there was solid coaching authority and this kind of stuff never happened then. Excuse me...
[INDENT]Did I imagine the incredible brouhaha involving LaVar Arrington and the coaching staff on minor matters such as should he play and should he freelance when he plays?

Was I the only one who heard some players questioning Mark Brunell as the starting QB?

Didn't Al Saunders admit that he called a play thinking Portis was in the game but that Portis had taken himself out and Saunders didn't know about it?[/INDENT]
Here is something Redskins fans have to live with. [I]The Redskins are not a highly disciplined organization in just about any facet of the management structure.[/I] The only thing that is certain is that Danny Boy will fire people whenever he feels like firing them. Other than that ...

This kind of story - - if it indeed has a source inside the Redskins - - is exactly the kind of story that the Skins plant as part of their process for firing a coach or and exec or a player. Keep your eyes and ears open; if you read a couple more of these stories unrelated to this Portis/Zorn spat, then be ready to watch Jim Zorn get fired unless he wins at least one playoff game.

That is the pattern of the past. And the best predictor of future behavior is - - past behavior.[/quote]

Thanks a million... for making sure i'm not the most pessimistic guy around here :)

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

Danny Snyder dumped Schottenheimer because he [Schotty] wanted to make [I]all[/I] the personnel decisions. Snyder was a young, immature owner then; who fancied himself a GM. Every single season the Redskins have had a tough season after that, there's a cloud of fans saying the HC will be fired immediately.

The fan sites have the same threads ["xxx Coach fired at the end of this season"] - every season with Spurrier, even Gibbs and now with Zorn. Since Schottenheimer, Snyder has not fired a Head Coach - the coaches have resigned. So why would Snyder dump Zorn?

If Snyder fires Zorn after a 7-9 season [worst case] WHO in the NFL would come to coach here? Cowher? Why work for an extremely fickle boss?

PFT is not a good source. No players are going to be happy when the team starts to lose games. Zorn is a rookie coach who needs another season to get better. Zorn did not massage CP the way some top players need to be stroked. Yet, Zorn also got this team to play above itself.

If Zorn is dumped there will be no talented coaches that would come here without a massive contract and a list of conditions to restrict Snyder and Cerratto.

[B]The truth is that Zorn is the best Snyder can get to come to this franchise. No real coach would come here to take this sort of guff from a player, suffer under the mediocre GM that is Vinny and bring this team up to this level for this small a contract. [/B] Only a washed-up coach or one who's never had a chance would take this job.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

Campbell is the problem!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

I thought he would have more patience!!!

[URL="http://yougotrickrolled.com/"]ESPN - Sources: Zorn considering resigning if 'Skins have losing season[/URL]

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;510706]I thought he would have more patience!!!

[URL="http://yougotrickrolled.com/"]ESPN - Sources: Zorn considering resigning if 'Skins have losing season[/URL][/quote]

LOL that was pretty good dude. You got me


:food-smil

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;510706]I thought he would have more patience!!!

[URL="http://yougotrickrolled.com/"]ESPN - Sources: Zorn considering resigning if 'Skins have losing season[/URL][/quote]

:goodjob:

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

[quote=schndr_tdd;510704]Campbell is the problem!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

Your wisdom is... wait you don't have any.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

If Snyder would have wanted to do whatever the hell he wanted last offseason, he would have hired Fassell (sp?). As much as there was talk of "continuity", we have a new head coach and some things have changed. Next year we will actually have continuity, and Zorn will have a year of NFL head coach experience under his belt.

Re: Players cooling to Zorn
 

This time is in a weird spot a rookie head coach, aging starters that just cant seem to get it done all the time anymore, and rookies that just havent realized their potential.
Im not giving up on zorn, or campbell, or even vinnie for that matter.
But i DO Think its time to ay goodbye to some of these players that have dropped off and look towards rebuilding.