Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

He makes a lot of good points here:

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/12/larry_michael_vouches_for_the.html]Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You? - Redskins Insider[/url]

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

Ya know, I really can't stand either JLC or Larry Michael. I really wish they could have a Freaky Friday incident and have to live in the other's world for half a season. That would be fun to watch!!!

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

I read that. It's hard to argue with a lot of JLC's points. Taken for what it is, a case for keeping Zorn, I think the post is very compelling.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

I see eye to eye with him except when he calls Moss a number 2. I would take Moss over any other WR in the Division. It is not Moss's fault that he has no one lined up opposite of him to take some heat off.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

JLC is pretty much right about most of his points. Not like he is saying anything ground breaking though.

I can't stand LM.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;513210]Ya know, I really can't stand either JLC or Larry Michael. I really wish they could have a Freaky Friday incident and have to live in the other's world for half a season. That would be fun to watch!!![/quote]

I'm with you on that one!

It's pretty simple really. Yes, the Redskins have talent (but need more) but plenty of the talent isn't playing enough yet. But heaven forbid we should give any of the players time

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=Angry;513214]I see eye to eye with him except when he calls Moss a number 2. I would take Moss over any other WR in the Division. It is not Moss's fault that he has no one lined up opposite of him to take some heat off.[/quote]

I agree. No one is more explosive than Moss, he is playmaker. Get a legit WR on the other side and he would be a pro-bowler.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

While Sally La Canfora's bla, bla, bla gets tired as our O-line, he makes some valid points. He just enjoys it to much........

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;513216]I'm with you on that one!

It's pretty simple really. Yes, the Redskins have talent (but need more) but plenty of the talent isn't playing enough yet. But heaven forbid we should give any of the players time[/quote]

I remember a time when people on here used to beg for us to develop draft picks, and now that we're doing that, they're becoming impatient.

Canfora is pretty much right, so to everyone who wants to fire Zorn and bench Campbell.....and thats another thing, people say they want continuity, but they want us to start all over in the offseason? Losing sure brings out the retard in people

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

I think JLC nailed it. The problem with the redskins starts at the head...chop it off...

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;513189]He makes a lot of good points here:

[url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/12/larry_michael_vouches_for_the.html]Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You? - Redskins Insider[/url][/quote]

Normally i hate this guy, but he makes alot of valid points BUT......

[COLOR="Red"]His strengths are not in coverage and that's no knock on LaRon. [/COLOR]

^^that Is Non-sense, our whole defensive scheme is based on Dirty's ability to play Cover 1 as the single deep safety and patrol the deep ALONE

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

It is hard to argue. I watch other, "less talented" teams and their #1 WR gets open for at least 6-7 balls a game, and they are able to get open down field. I just dont think Santana is a #1 WR in the NFL. I use to argue that for a couple of years, but i can't anymore. He is the same size as Steve Smith. He gets open ALL THE TIME, and he is basically the only option on the Panthers. Moose is a nice compliment, but he is 34 and no where near the player he was early 2000's.
Campbell just doesn't seem to want to take chances. QB's in this league, with a true #1 WR take chances, they allow them to make plays on the ball. I watch teams and see them completing balls 30 yards down field, hell even 20 yards down field and just wonder why the hell can't we do that!! Well, I think it comes down to Moss not being as good as we all would like to think he is.
Know, I know there are a ton of other factors. He is our ONLY threat, so he gets doubled under and over, which leads me to Randel El....he stinks. He is in no way a #2 receiver. I have said it since we gave him 30 million, he is way over paid.. .and not that good. He is a #3, maybe. We have no WR threats at all. Cooley would is a threat, just imagine what he would do if we could field two, three pretty good WR's!!

Offensive line...seriously...old and under talented! 3 or 4 years ago, they were pretty solid, but we let a good guard go by not offering him a decent contract when he had 1 year remaining on his deal. (i know what he signed for in buffalo was way too much!) but we should have signed him to an extension. the line is not that good despite the early success.
D- line, must we go there? they need to blow that whole thing up. Keep Montgomery, he plays the run fairly well and is improving. Still not sure about Golston. Carter is a waste in my opinion. He can not get pressure and can't play the run, same with Jason taylor
Line backers - pretty solid, but need someone to take Marcus's spot. He is done.
secondary is pretty solid as well, and pretty young with Rogers, Hall, Landry and Horton. good foundation.

overall, we are not very talented in my opinion... we have some decent talent but not very good at Key positions.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=djnemo65;513211]I read that. It's hard to argue with a lot of JLC's points. Taken for what it is, a case for keeping Zorn, I think the post is very compelling.[/quote]

That's the main point I took from it, blaming Zorn for these issues after being here for only 10 months is absurd.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

i was always a over evaluator of talent. this article is pretty obvious. the skins do have talent. just not enough of it. and i disagree with not playing the rookies. its different if your in a big playoff push, but the skins have been getting ready for the off season the last couple of weeks

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;513210]Ya know, I really can't stand either JLC or Larry Michael. I really wish they could have a Freaky Friday incident and have to live in the other's world for half a season. That would be fun to watch!!![/quote]

That's a show I would watch. Or put them together like" Hannity and Colmes " on Fox, but make it about the Redskins instead of politics. I don't have much love for either one, but it was a good article for the purpose it was written. Zorn is not the one to blame here. He deserves more time.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

I don't have a problem with JLC at all. Yes, he's tough on the team, but he should be. We all should be. This team has been chronically [and almost criminally] mismanaged for years. I don't care if JLC is a Ravens fan, it doesn't make his criticisms any less valid. Worry about the accuracy of his points, not about anything else.

And Larry Michael is a douche nozzle. The less said and written about him, the better.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=Spence;513253]I don't have a problem with JLC at all. Yes, he's tough on the team, but he should be. We all should be.[/quote]

Being "tough" (i.e., excessively critical) isn't virtuous. I want journalists covering the Redskins to be "fair" (i.e., recognizing the good and the bad).

Like Hog1 said, JLC makes some good points, but he seems to enjoy criticizing the team far too much. His personal distaste for Vinny and Danny is palpable and unprofessional.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

12-18-2008 09:36 AM
Mattyk72 Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by djnemo65
I read that. It's hard to argue with a lot of JLC's points. Taken for what it is, a case for keeping Zorn, I think the post is very compelling.

That's the main point I took from it, blaming Zorn for these issues after being here for only 10 months is absurd.


I guess it’s hard to argue with this article and the lessons to take from it are that we should keep Zorn if that is what you already felt. I think that’s called preaching to the converted.

For those of us that have seen this team increasingly fall apart the longer the season has gone on the argument for keeping Zorn seems lass difficult to argue.

Most of the points raised in this article were as valid at the beginning of the season as they are now. I think it has taken Zorn’s input to progressively turn this team into something approaching a joke.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

Like it's been said before, JLC makes some good points but he really seems to enjoy kicking the Redskins when they are down. I guess I had never done a full roster analysis like he did here but when you look at it, we are lacking in a lot of areas.

He overstated in some instances (putting Portis 4th in the division?, comparing ARE to Sincorce Moss?, expressing concern about Landry's development in his 2nd year when he's playing out of position, saying Cerrato drafted a punter 'high') but pointed out some flaws across the board.

I'm not saying that coaching is the complete problem, nor advocating a change but I think great coaches adjust to their players strengths and we've had some very stubborn coaches (Gibbs in general, Grilliams with Lavar, Blache not sending his DL upfield after the QB, Zorn not embracing JC more in the shotgun) that have not allowed our talent to be maximized. It's not always about the best talent (see Cowboys the past 2 years, Patriots in the SB, Ravens in '00) but getting the most out of it.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=Spence;513253]I don't have a problem with JLC at all. Yes, he's tough on the team, but he should be. We all should be. This team has been chronically [and almost criminally] mismanaged for years. I don't care if JLC is a Ravens fan, it doesn't make his criticisms any less valid.[B] Worry about the accuracy of his points[/B], not about anything else.

And Larry Michael is a douche nozzle. The less said and written about him, the better.[/quote]

I do. Thats why I'm usually skeptical about the stuff he writes.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=Angry;513214]I see eye to eye with him except when he calls Moss a number 2. I would take Moss over any other WR in the Division. It is not Moss's fault that he has no one lined up opposite of him to take some heat off.[/quote]

I agree that he is far off the mark on Moss. It's actually amazing what Moss has in fact accomplished given the lack of an additional threat.

I will say, though, that I think JLC is right on the money about ARE.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

Garbage article, dripping with vitriol and sarcasm.

Waste of space.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

IMO Moss is an awesome talent, just lacks the size to be a true #1. I love the way Moss plays though.

I do think JC should take more chances and let Moss try to make plays. He is great at catching the deep ball in traffic.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

I really just think Zorn is caught in a catch-22. On the one hand he wants to install the WCO so we can learn how to win with it. That takes time and a lot of repetition. On the other hand, because we BARELY made the playoffs last year we are expected to win now. So what do we do? He can play to our strengths and go outside of the WCO to try and get wins, or he can keep going with the WCO with the idea that once the players get it, things will start working. Of course going outside of the WCO takes away from learning how to win within it which is ultimately where he thinks we will have our greatest success. So should he just scrap it and try to get wins this year even though it will set the process back even further? Installing the WCO AND getting wins in the first year, especially with an inconsistent o-line, seems like an arduous task to say the least. Andy Reid wasn't able to do it. I believe he was 5-11 his first year. I'm not sure anyone has to the extent we expect Zorn to. Just give the guy another year and if there is no improvement...deal with it then. Constant turnover has been our problem... not the answer.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

I think a top-shelf #1 WR should get in the end zone 8 times a year. That's once every other game over the course of a season.

Santana Moss has been in the league 8 years; he's met or exceeded 8 TDs in a season twice; the last time was in 2005.

Yes, I realize that in his rookie season for the Jets he only played in 4 games due to an injury, so I'll spot him that season...


The most insightful comment in this thread was the one that identified Larry Michael as a douche nozzle. This man makes sycophants all over the world look like iconoclasts...

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=BrunellMVP?;513225]I think JLC nailed it. The problem with the redskins starts at the head...chop it off...[/quote]

DS wants to win more than anyone else in the organization. The problem is that he also wants to be able to stand in front of the mics when they win and say "see what I did", "I told VC to pick him", "I knew he was a big time player thas why I recommended we draft him", etc. Just accepting the trophy on behalf of the organization isnt enough, it has to be about how football smart he is. Until that changes this team is doomed to its current state.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

I don't agree with him on Portis either. I'd take him over Jacobs and Barber. Westbrook is more dynamic but he's also not a guy you can line up and pound 25 times a game.

As for Moss I tend to agree he's better suited as a #2 option. He's definitely an explosive WR but he tends to disappear for stretches and he's just not reliable enough for me to call a true #1.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;513210]Ya know, I really can't stand either JLC or Larry Michael. I really wish they could have a Freaky Friday incident and have to live in the other's world for half a season. That would be fun to watch!!![/quote]

Ironically they would fix each others faults. Redskins Insider would move away from Redskins Insider Vendetta and Redskins Nation would finally have a host that wouldn't agree with everything the team said. Of course eventually they would just fall back to their bad habbits and after while it woudn't be much different.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

We need JLC to balance Larry Michael's "rose colored" reporting. While I don't agree with everything JLC says, the macro view that this team is flawed with less talent than they're willing to admit is right on the money.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

Knowing JLC's disdain for Vinny, Danny, and Larry Michael, I take all of this with a pretty darn big grain of salt. However, as far as relating personnel issues to the question of Zorn's job security, he's right on IMO. We've been mismanaged pretty badly on many occasions, particularly on the O and D lines. None of this stuff is Zorn's fault.

I don't much like JLC, but I can't friggin stand Larry Michael.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

Michael is nothing more than a Snyder puppet- hardly credible.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

I still think the DL is getting a really bad rap for what it is/isn't doing given the circumstances. We have great individual talent on the DL. Here's the problem: most of it is 29 or older. At DT, we are young, at least. We need a replacement for Griffin when his contract expires, but I think he will play out the deal here.

DE has actually been a strength for us this season, as weird as that sounds, even considering that Taylor has busted (although I think we could salvage his HOF pass rushing skills if we used him properly, he's a feather-weight against the run), but I could see it being a problem in the future. Jason Taylor is 34. Andre Carter is 29. Demetric Evans is also 28 (and a free agent). Chris Wilson, the new kid on the block, is actually 26. Rob Jackson is 23, but I have no idea if he can develop into our RE of the future.

So I do think it's a position that needs an injection of talented, reliable youth, much like the OL needs it. But, in my opinion, probably no more so than LB.

But yeah, the problems with the offense probably go something like this:

1. Rabach
2. Randy Thomas
3. Devin Thomas
4. Malcolm Kelly
5. Jon Jansen
6. James Thrash
7. Todd Yoder
8. Santana Moss
9. Fred Davis
10. Stephon Heyer
11. Jim Zorn

So obviously, we have much more to correct before it all falls on Zorn. Some need time to develop. Others will just have to be replaced. And others still can remain problems we can live with. I think Zorn falls into the first category.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

couple things he mentions i disagree with.
but overall hes right. especially his issues with the WR,OL,DL,& LB Cores.

"The run game carried the offense until the old and brittle offensive line broke down again"

Alot of truth. ok...so what next? who knos what will transpire this offseason all the way down the roster.

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

JLC does a great job, if he takes too many jabs at danny & vinny I think it's because of their handling of media, which has not been very smooth. He has learned through experience that he can't trust them, but not only that it sounds as if they've been unprofessional at times.

I can't argue w/his analysis; we are not that talented. Age has to factor into it as well, talented & old to me = less talented. We've got some good old guys, but there's nobody on the bench in many cases we can be confident about taking their place.

I really fear 09. It could be a total rebuilding year. That's not so bad if the team plans on it, but in this case I see it being more like 06 when we thought we had something & ended up winning 5 games. Please don't spend tons of $ on free agents next year, the market just isn't there & neither is the team close to winning big. It will take 2 years IMO to build this roster back up to any level we could call "talented."

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

[quote=GTripp0012;513370]I still think the DL is getting a really bad rap for what it is/isn't doing given the circumstances. We have great individual talent on the DL. Here's the problem: most of it is 29 or older. At DT, we are young, at least. We need a replacement for Griffin when his contract expires, but I think he will play out the deal here.

DE has actually been a strength for us this season, as weird as that sounds, even considering that Taylor has busted (although I think we could salvage his HOF pass rushing skills if we used him properly, he's a feather-weight against the run), but I could see it being a problem in the future. Jason Taylor is 34. Andre Carter is 29. Demetric Evans is also 28 (and a free agent). Chris Wilson, the new kid on the block, is actually 26. Rob Jackson is 23, but I have no idea if he can develop into our RE of the future.

So I do think it's a position that needs an injection of talented, reliable youth, much like the OL needs it. But, in my opinion, probably no more so than LB.

But yeah, the problems with the offense probably go something like this:

1. Rabach
2. Randy Thomas
3. Devin Thomas
4. Malcolm Kelly
5. Jon Jansen
6. James Thrash
7. Todd Yoder
8. Santana Moss
9. Fred Davis
10. Stephon Heyer
11. Jim Zorn

So obviously, we have much more to correct before it all falls on Zorn. Some need time to develop. Others will just have to be replaced. And others still can remain problems we can live with. I think Zorn falls into the first category.[/quote] Interesting take on the hierarchy of offensive blame. I agree that Rabach is a problem, but I would put Jansen much higher. I don't know how to enumerate it, but the fact that Thrash and Yoder are even on the list has to be no lower than problem #3!

Re: Michael Vouches for Abundant Talent; How About You?
 

Right now this is how I feel about the "abundance" of talent on the team.

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