Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Ok, you know, the more I have thought about why our offense is just NOT helping us over the top, I started to realize something...

Wide Receiver is STILL the most glaring weakness on this football team, over O-Line & D-Line.

I am kind of combining thoughts I put on other various threads, but here are some points I want to make:

[B]What we HAVE at receiver[/B]:

* One short, above-average receiver who was doubled for the MAJORITY of the season. (Moss)
* One short receiver who really isn't a "receiver" that runs crisp routes, escapes jams, and is finding holes in the D. (Randel El)
* One “tall” receiver who only started one year as a WR in college and doesn't seem very bright as the coaches & QB didn't REALLY trust him being out there as a target on plays. (Thomas)
* One “tall” receiver with the knees of a 37 year-old offensive lineman and again, not too bright with the playbook as he was healthy enough at times and still was INACTIVE. (Kelly)
* TWO really good receiving tight ends (Cooley & Davis) playing in a West Coast Offense that doesn't exactly use the Gibbs two TE set that often. (lol) It's SUPPOSED to be a 3 WR set most times

[B]Why this was a HUGE issue for us in 2008[/B]:

Our Wide Receivers made EVERYONE else on offense look worse. Think about many of the sacks/runs by Campbell had this year and you notice that many times he would plant and hold or pump fake, because no one was open down field. I really do think this was the reason for at LEAST a quarter of the sacks this season, which made our O-Line look bad.

Our running game suffered at the end of the season because the rest of the league figured out that they needed to just play up at the line, jamming Moss/Randel El and cover Moss over the top as well as the simple fact that EVERYONE figured out that our offense WAS the run game and started playing up tight with linebackers & safties with no fear of our receivers. If we had even an AVERAGE passing offense (that included stretching the field), the run game would come back.

[B]Why this is STILL a huge issue for 2009[/B]:

Basically, I am pretty sure we are going to have the same well below average WRs as this year (because I just don't see Cerrato going there again).

We have to hope that:
* One gets smart quick (Thomas)
* One gets Earnest Ainsley to HHHEEEAAAALL (!) those knees (Kelly)
* Zorn figures out how to use TWO TE's in the WCO (Davis).

[B]My Opinion[/B]:

Imagine if we were to do something at WR this offseason? People would flip out after taking 2 in the 2nd round last year.

I know I may get reamed for this but, I REALLY think that we might be well served to go after a T.J. “Whoseyourmamma” Houshmandzadeh. Really.

If we have him & Moss as 1 & 2, then Randel El/Thomas/Kelly can battle it out for the 3rd receiver in our 3 man sets. The main thing is... we'd have a REAL wide RECEIVER that knows how to run routes, has great hands and is PROVEN in the league. I also think that it would have a TREMENDOUS effect on Santana Moss' success. Think about it. Since he's been here, there has been absolutely NO threat on the other side of the field at WR... it could only open things back up for him. And our O-Linemen look SOOOO much better when receivers are open, Campbell is getting rid of the ball & not holding it, and all of this softens the defense for the run game.

I know that I'm gonna be called crazy for saying spend money on him over a lineman, but I think our entire draft should be focused on the O& D-Lines and that Samuels/Kendall/Rabach/Thomas/Jansen/Heyer can be effective for another year until Rinehart & whoever we draft get ready.

What are your thoughts on our WR crew for 2009? Who will line up for us? Who should? Do you have faith that Thomas & Kelly will help us win next year?

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;517068]Ok, you know, the more I have thought about why our offense is just NOT helping us over the top, I started to realize something...

Wide Receiver is STILL the most glaring weakness on this football team, over O-Line & D-Line.

I am kind of combining thoughts I put on other various threads, but here are some points I want to make:

[B]What we HAVE at receiver[/B]:

* One short, above-average receiver who was doubled for the MAJORITY of the season. (Moss)
* One short receiver who really isn't a "receiver" that runs crisp routes, escapes jams, and is finding holes in the D. (Randel El)
* One “tall” receiver who only started one year as a WR in college and doesn't seem very bright as the coaches & QB didn't REALLY trust him being out there as a target on plays. (Thomas)
* One “tall” receiver with the knees of a 37 year-old offensive lineman and again, not too bright with the playbook as he was healthy enough at times and still was INACTIVE. (Kelly)
* TWO really good receiving tight ends (Cooley & Davis) playing in a West Coast Offense that doesn't exactly use the Gibbs two TE set that often. (lol) It's SUPPOSED to be a 3 WR set most times

[B]Why this was a HUGE issue for us in 2008[/B]:

Our Wide Receivers made EVERYONE else on offense look worse. Think about many of the sacks/runs by Campbell had this year and you notice that many times he would plant and hold or pump fake, because no one was open down field. I really do think this was the reason for at LEAST a quarter of the sacks this season, which made our O-Line look bad.

Our running game suffered at the end of the season because the rest of the league figured out that they needed to just play up at the line, jamming Moss/Randel El and cover Moss over the top as well as the simple fact that EVERYONE figured out that our offense WAS the run game and started playing up tight with linebackers & safties with no fear of our receivers. If we had even an AVERAGE passing offense (that included stretching the field), the run game would come back.

[B]Why this is STILL a huge issue for 2009[/B]:

Basically, I am pretty sure we are going to have the same well below average WRs as this year (because I just don't see Cerrato going there again).

We have to hope that:
* One gets smart quick (Thomas)
* One gets Earnest Ainsley to HHHEEEAAAALL (!) those knees (Kelly)
* Zorn figures out how to use TWO TE's in the WCO (Davis).

[B]My Opinion[/B]:

Imagine if we were to do something at WR this offseason? People would flip out after taking 2 in the 2nd round last year.

I know I may get reamed for this but, I REALLY think that we might be well served to go after a T.J. “Whoseyourmamma” Houshmandzadeh. Really.

If we have him & Moss as 1 & 2, then Randel El/Thomas/Kelly can battle it out for the 3rd receiver in our 3 man sets. The main thing is... we'd have a REAL wide RECEIVER that knows how to run routes, has great hands and is PROVEN in the league. I also think that it would have a TREMENDOUS effect on Santana Moss' success. Think about it. Since he's been here, there has been absolutely NO threat on the other side of the field at WR... it could only open things back up for him. And our O-Linemen look SOOOO much better when receivers are open, Campbell is getting rid of the ball & not holding it, and all of this softens the defense for the run game.

I know that I'm gonna be called crazy for saying spend money on him over a lineman, but I think our entire draft should be focused on the O& D-Lines and that Samuels/Kendall/Rabach/Thomas/Jansen/Heyer can be effective for another year until Rinehart & whoever we draft get ready.

What are your thoughts on our WR crew for 2009? Who will line up for us? Who should? Do you have faith that Thomas & Kelly will help us win next year?[/quote]

I wouldn't have too much of a problem if they made moves in the WR area (because God knows that I would not put money down on any of last year's draft choices) as long as:

1. We first address both lines.

2. They are smart value moves to upgrade, not using all of our draft picks or breaking the bank for a Randle El type receiver.

But essentially I do agree with you, not that our OL doesn't have problems but certainly the lack of multiple big play receiving threats did not help.

I would make a play for TJ. but pass if the price gets too high. Maybe even go for a lower priced veteran receiver in FA or use a lower pick on one after line needs are addressed. Essentially we need a WR that is smart, with size and speed. He doesn't have to be a Jerry Rice. We can get that with a modest price and hope that at some point Thomas or Kelly can grow into that role.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Otis Wonsley;517070]I wouldn't have too much of a problem if they made moves in the WR area (because God knows that I would not put money down on any of last year's draft choices) as long as:

1. We first address both lines.

2. They are smart value moves to upgrade, not using all of our draft picks or breaking the bank for a Randle El type receiver.

But essentially I do agree with you, not that our OL doesn't have problems but certainly the lack of multiple big play receiving threats did not help.

I would make a play for TJ. but pass if the price gets too high. Maybe even go for a lower priced veteran receiver in FA or use a lower pick on one after line needs are addressed. Essentially we need a WR that is smart, with size and speed. He doesn't have to be a Jerry Rice. We can get that with a modest price and hope that at some point Thomas or Kelly can grow into that role.[/quote]


Well... problem is... the WR FA Class is VERY thin looking. Here's what's going to be available as of right now...

T.J. Houshmandzadeh UFA
Bobby Engram UFA
Devery Henderson UFA
Shaun McDonald UFA
Hank Baskett RFA
Jabar Gaffney UFA
Dante Hall UFA
Sam Hurd UFA
Brandon Jones UFA
Ashlie Lelie UFA
Koren Robinson UFA
Amani Toomer UFA
Roydell Williams UFA
Cedrick Wilson UFA

Houshmandzadeh is clearly the best, most proven receiver out there, which, yes, is bad news in that he'll make BANK... that's why I say we won't go after him... but I'm saying he would be what we NEED to make the rest of the offense better... looks like we have to hope for the things I listed to happen to the guys we have... lol

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

My thoughts....I hope that in the off season our two rookie WR's start eating and weight lifting and put on some meat and resemble Randy Moss or T.O. in size so we have two excellent WR's in the future. I hope they get rid of Yodder and utilize Davis and have two pass catching TE threats next yr for teams to worry about in Zorn's 2 TE sets we see little of. I hope they can coach up the young O-line guys and start replacing the older ones with the young ones and use the older ones as backups; ie: Jansen, who they can't cut due to his cap hit. Make him realize he's now getting paid to help coach up the younger guys.

I hope we bring in a new WR's coach...one that knows how to teach the WR's to get open, and run crisp routes. I hope they decide what to do at the O-line coach's position. I love Buges and he's an awsome teacher but he has said in the past and perhaps it was even during Gibbs first tenure he does not like how the Bronco's line are taught to play....ie; zone blocking and cut blocking. obviously due to it causing injuries.

I hope Zorn succeeds. Honestly. I want to see him do well so we don't have to change coach's again and again. but he has a lot to learn or to teach in the offseason ie; 2 min. drills, adjusting during games.

I hope the defense figures out where our problems were. I don't think it had anything to do with Taylor. If there's no collapse of pocket then the RB can pick up either Taylor or Carter leaving a place for he QB to run. None of our DT were double teamed meaning the DE's were easily picked up. Our DB's would look better if we had some form of pass rush causing the QB to either throw the ball away or take a sack. Simply what happened to us all yr. We never had time to develope a play and JC had to throw it away or take the sack. Sometimes he ran for his life. LOL.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I don't agree that WR is more of a concern than our lines.

OL & DL have been neglected for some time now. I personally have been clamoring for DE's since the 2005 season where it was five in a row or we don't go. That season we had the same problem that we do now where our defense was stout but we'd give their QB tons of time in the pocket.

Andre Carter was a nice pickup but it shouldn't have stopped there. We needed 2 or 3 guys like him in our ranks. That position much like OL was neglected in part, I believe, because they are unglamorous positions. Washington loves it's skill players and seems to solve their superficial issues by overcompensating our weaknesses with the respective skill player.

I believe if you want to build competitive consistency you have to have a great OL & DL. If we had that we could've consistently dominated the teams that we were supposed to, like the Lions, Rams and the Bengals.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[B][quote=Skinny Tee;517095]I don't agree that WR is more of a concern than our lines.
[/B]
OL & DL have been neglected for some time now. I personally have been clamoring for DE's since the 2005 season where it was five in a row or we don't go. That season we had the same problem that we do now where our defense was stout but we'd give their QB tons of time in the pocket.

Andre Carter was a nice pickup but it shouldn't have stopped there. We needed 2 or 3 guys like him in our ranks. That position much like OL was neglected in part, I believe, because they are unglamorous positions. Washington loves it's skill players and seems to solve their superficial issues by overcompensating our weaknesses with the respective skill player.

I believe if you want to build competitive consistency you have to have a great OL & DL. If we had that we could've consistently dominated the teams that we were supposed to, like the Lions, Rams and the Bengals.[/quote]

Our lines are and should be our top concern going into the draft. But even when our lines hold every once in awhile a wr never seems to get open. WR seems to be a weak point but its the WR coach not the players.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I know I put this in the "I guess you guys don't like Vinne" thread but it deserved to be said here and I couldn't bear to type it again.

[B]Then I would say we are screwed. Not cause I don't want an elite WR but cause we have basically a college coach trying to teach pros how to run routes. It has not worked in 5 yrs, we have had no production from our WR's in the last 5yrs, and anyone we picked up in the hopes they will make this team better appear to suck or can't get on the field due to lack of knowlege of the plays/routes. But lets not hold anyone accountable cause we can always pick up more next yr or draft another WR in hopes he will work out. The only reason Moss, ARE, and Thrash have worked out for us is cause they were trained prior to Hixon being here. Moss trained with the Jets, ARE trained with Pitt, and Thrash started here and got fine tuned in the WCO with the Eagles. No one else has produced. No one else has been developed since Hixon has gotten here. Everyone who had talent according to the team came, did ok or nothing at all, left and did better then here...ie; Coles, Patton, and Lloyd ring a bell. I'm afraid to ask where Mix went.[/B]

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Also for those of you who wanted the Skins to pick up Marcus Monk(including myself) it shows he was cut from the Giants roster on NFL.com. Anyone still want a 6-4 212 WR? Also Mix is still available and he was supposed to be the next Burress.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

McMullen was cut by Seatle....wasn't he the WR who caught everything during preseason for us? Nows the time to start looking at all the ...cuts guys and start seeing if they could help us Snyder. This includes all the DL and DE's. I know they were cut for a reason but no harm in looking at the list to see if any are servicable or trainable since they don't like to get first round DL/DE's.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;517095]I don't agree that WR is more of a concern than our lines.

OL & DL have been neglected for some time now. I personally have been clamoring for DE's since the 2005 season where it was five in a row or we don't go. That season we had the same problem that we do now where our defense was stout but we'd give their QB tons of time in the pocket.

Andre Carter was a nice pickup but it shouldn't have stopped there. We needed 2 or 3 guys like him in our ranks. That position much like OL was neglected in part, I believe, because they are unglamorous positions. Washington loves it's skill players and seems to solve their superficial issues by overcompensating our weaknesses with the respective skill player.

I believe if you want to build competitive consistency you have to have a great OL & DL. If we had that we could've consistently dominated the teams that we were supposed to, like the Lions, Rams and the Bengals.[/quote]


That's fair enough.

However, why are you picking on the defense that was #4 in the NFL in yards/points allowed, while our offense (passing in particular) was #28 overall ... and obviously sucked?

When was the last time we had a top 10 offense? When Mark Rypien was QB? (JK) I mean... Trent Green had a good year moving our pass offense, as did Brad Johnson, but since then... we have been NO CONSISTENT threat to a team's secondary. We have relied on Moss to carry our pass game for too long... we NEED another receiver to help. If some think that a new WR Coach would make Thomas and/or Kellyquality NFL starters, OK. But to say that reveiver isn't the weakest group on the team is tough to understand.

A D-Line next year of Carter, Griffin, Montgomery, Golston, Alexander, Taylor, R Jackson, D Evans is a lot better looking than our WR group I think, even if it is a bunch of run stuffers and OLD pass rushers.

Now, that's not to say that the D-Line does not need an interior PASS rusher... cause we do. I am just saying that the D-Line is getting old and we need to build it through the draft. This thread is supposed to be strictly about our wide reveivers and what needs to be done to make our 2009 pass offense more successful.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Hail to the Redskins,
Look where drafting WR's has gotten Detroit Lions: 0-16, GM fired, Coach fired.

Detroit's 1st round picks:
2002 QB
2003 WR
2004 WR
2005 WR
2006 OLB
2007 WR

This is not Fantasy Football or a Madden video game.
In the real world NFL flashy-glamorous picks are not usually successful.
Look at consistently good/talented teams like Pittsburgh Steelers or NE Patriots.
They draft (1)defense and (2) lineman.
New Englands QB Brady is a 6th round pick. Their star WR's were picked up for cheap on trades. Since 2000 they invested heavy in the draft by picking Offensive and Defensive lineman. Look at what Parcells did in Miami in 2008. He drafted a ton of lineman and picked up his QB in a trade for cheap. See a trend?
It is not flashy but it works. It is a proven way to build a team.
Build you lines first.
Skill position players are easy to get. Every offseason there are a good quantity of quality QB's, WR's and RB's available that are released for cap reasons.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

^....but your bashing a team that picked the best available player at the time?

and...I stand corrected the preseason catcher was Maurice Mann. He's available also. All three or four are 6-1 or above. Pick them all up Danny and hire a WR's coach and get them on the field.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Defensewins;517106]Hail to the Redskins,
Look where drafting WR's has gotten Detroit Lions: 0-16, GM fired, Coach fired.

Detroit's 1st round picks:
2002 QB
2003 WR
2004 WR
2005 WR
2006 OLB
2007 WR

This is not Fantasy Football or a Madden video game.
In the real world NFL flashy-glamorous picks are not usually successful.
Look at consistently good/talented teams like Pittsburgh Steelers or NE Patriots.
They draft (1)defense and (2) lineman.
New Englands QB Brady is a 6th round pick. Their star WR's were picked up for cheap on trades. Since 2000 they invested heavy in the draft by picking Offensive and Defensive lineman. Look at what Parcells did in Miami in 2008. He drafted a ton of lineman and picked up his QB in a trade for cheap. See a trend?
It is not flashy but it works. It is a proven way to build a team.[/quote]

Are you tyring to agree with me here or disagree?

I DEFINITELY did not even come close to saying that we should draft a receiver...

If you read the post, I said get a PROVEN receiver and use the all of our draft on both lines (well.. maybe one LB would be nice if not picked up in FA)

If what you are saying is that we should go after receivers a different way, other than the draft, then yeah... I totally agree.

Bottom line is that receivers are NOT guaranteed out of college. Look at Colston in New Orleans and then look at the Ashlie Lelies, Troy Williamsons of the NFL and you realize that trading for them or free agency is a MUCH better idea in that you get a PROVEN commodity... which is EXACTLY what we need right now.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Why is it that every other NFL team knows how to draft a quality rookie who can produce in their first year and we are always trying to feel out how our rookies can contribute next year. (I.E. the eagles and Jackson). Didn't these WR's all have first round grades? I think that Zorn should have started Thomas after a few games opposite Santana and put Randel El in the slot, and for god sake he should have replaced Randel El in the return game at the beginning of the season.......Oh I'm sorry, I'm getting off track..

1. Keep Moss as the number one.

2. Have D. Thomas and Kelly battle for the number two spot, Devin has great speed and just needs a little more coaching and some patience by the fans and the coaches and I think he can eventually move into the number one spot in a couple of years. (I'm pulling for Devin).

3. Have the loser of the Thomas/Kelly battle fight with Randel El for the slot position. This would be and ideal position for Kelly, given his size.

4. Seriously think about trying to trade Randel El, I personally like Randel El, however I just don't think he is a quality starting receiver.

5. Pick up a receiver in the draft or via free agency.

6. We have two quality tightends, we need to get Davis involved in the off. more, he looks like he could be a mini A. Gates.

7. Hey just get Cooley the ball as much as possible and stand back and watch him work.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;517105]That's fair enough.

However, why are you picking on the defense that was #4 in the NFL in yards/points allowed, while our offense (passing in particular) was #28 overall ... and obviously sucked?

When was the last time we had a top 10 offense? When Mark Rypien was QB? (JK) I mean... Trent Green had a good year moving our pass offense, as did Brad Johnson, but since then... we have been NO CONSISTENT threat to a team's secondary. We have relied on Moss to carry our pass game for too long... we NEED another receiver to help. If some think that a new WR Coach would make Thomas and/or Kellyquality NFL starters, OK. But to say that reveiver isn't the weakest group on the team is tough to understand.[/quote]

I think that a large part of our offensive woes could be handled if we reinforced our offensive line.

If our OL can dominate a game then any NFL receiver would be able to get open. Last year Romo had forever to throw balls and was getting it to the likes of Sam Hurd and Crayton, who is a 7th round pick. Granted dallas is pass heavy but if you give your offense time, ANY NFL QB & WR are going to be able to connect.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Defensewins;517106]
Skill position players are easy to get. Every offseason there are a good quantity of quality QB's, WR's and RB's available that are released for cap reasons.[/quote]
Not many QB's, WR's probably the top for skill.. RB's are here and there, often seem to be trades

maybe I'm wrong, just what I've noticed

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Sorry but I strongly disagree that Wide Receiver is an issue on this team. We have to solid targets in Moss and Cooley, as well as talent coming up in Davis, Thomas, and Kelly. Sure one or two of them might end up as bust but the fact remains that we have two receiving threats off the LOS and in the NFL that's more then enough.

This receiving corps was more then enough during 6-2 when we were running the ball like mad men. It was when the running game broke down where the passing game fell apart. If you remember during those first 8 weeks CP led the league in rushing with 944 yards (on pace for 1,888) and 7 TD's. In the second half of the season he averaged 3.5 ypc with 2 TD's.

So with the running game gone our O-line, who was breaking down from old age at midseason, started to become a liability when teams decided they could unload on our QB and easily get the ball back after 3 and outs.

If anything we need new blood on the O-Line. Even if it means adding a RT, G, and C with our first three picks in the first three rounds (in this scenario we trade back) or better yet we get Jordan Gross in Free agency, draft Duke Robinson in the late first and find a quality center that falls through the cracks like Alex Mack. Maybe get a DT in between. Of course maybe I'm just a dreamer. Anyway we're a team that lives and dies with the running game just like the Vikings. I mean does anyone here think for a second that Tavaris Jackson is half as good as he is without the Vikings running game?

Trust me, O-Line play means much more then Recievers. I mean look at the Cardinals they got two of the best receivers in the league paired with a quality QB in Warner and they barely went 9-7 in possibly the worst division in football. Of course we're not much better going 8-8 but our problems started when the running game went downhill.

Join me brothers in helping the Redskins rebuild a glorious offensive front.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

^ I agree with you but I still say this;

[B]Then I would say we are screwed. Not cause I don't want an elite WR but cause we have basically a college coach trying to teach pros how to run routes. It has not worked in 5 yrs, we have had no production from our WR's in the last 5yrs, and anyone we picked up in the hopes they will make this team better appear to suck or can't get on the field due to lack of knowlege of the plays/routes. But lets not hold anyone accountable cause we can always pick up more next yr or draft another WR in hopes he will work out. The only reason Moss, ARE, and Thrash have worked out for us is cause they were trained prior to Hixon being here. Moss trained with the Jets, ARE trained with Pitt, and Thrash started here and got fine tuned in the WCO with the Eagles. No one else has produced. No one else has been developed since Hixon has gotten here. Everyone who had talent according to the team came, did ok or nothing at all, left and did better then here...ie; Coles, Patton, and Lloyd ring a bell. I'm afraid to ask where Mix went.[/B]

We can draft for the Lines. pick up some good LB, S, CB in free agency and if the coach had any balls replace Hixon with someone who will make a difference at their position and bring back Maurice Mann, McMullen, Mix, and pick up Marcus Monk....all WR's over 6-1 and have been cut by their teams. Develope them the right way and we have several decent WR's to use.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SBXVII;517136]^ I agree with you but I still say this;

We can draft for the Lines. pick up some good LB, S, CB in free agency and if the coach had any balls replace Hixon with someone who will make a difference at their position and bring back Maurice Mann, McMullen, Mix, and pick up Marcus Monk....all WR's over 6-1 and have been cut by their teams. Develope them the right way and we have several decent WR's to use.[/quote]

I'm sure there'll be more 6'4''+ WR's coming out in this years draft that you can get just as excited for. Though unless their receiving skills catch up with their physical dimensions they won't be able to make an NFL roster.

Having an OL that can dominate the LOS will pinpoint where problems lie in our offensive skill positions. Until then it is speculation as to who exactly is the liability in our offense.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

^ again agreed. If we can't stop the rush or can't give JC time to let plays develope it won't matter who is back at QB we won't have a decent passing game.

but I'll add Hixon has not developed anyone in the 5 yrs he's been here. Not one WR. We have no young talent except for Thomas and Kelly whome we picked up last yr and some are calling them busts. So we pick 2-3 WR's in hopes that one works out? McMullen didn't even though we didn't draft him, Maurice Mann didn't, Mix was supposed to be the next Plexico. What happened? We let him go but keep Thrash based solely on his ST play? Cartwright did most of the tackling on kick offs. and Horton. Basically we kept a vet WR on the team cause of his ST abilities alone and he didn't even use them all that much cause Cartwright made most of the tackles. I'd of rather let him go as much as I was a fan of him and kept the younger guys for the future.

again though it doesn't matter who you bring in if our WR coach can't coach anyone or develope anyone. All will suck in the end.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Skinny Tee;517140]I'm sure there'll be more 6'4''+ WR's coming out in this years draft that you can get just as excited for. Though unless their receiving skills catch up with their physical dimensions they won't be able to make an NFL roster.

Having an OL that can dominate the LOS will pinpoint where problems lie in our offensive skill positions. Until then it is speculation as to who exactly is the liability in our offense.[/quote]

Agreed. Good post Tee.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

What we need to do is send them to a Jerry Rice camp, show them how to run WC routes.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=NYCskinfan82;517146]What we need to do is send them to a Jerry Rice camp, show them how to run WC routes.[/quote]

Worked for Desean Jackson

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Our wr's are below average. Not much else needs to be said. If Kelly and Thomas develop then this unit will improve. If not then back to the drawing board.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Patience is a necessity with WR. I posted this elsewhere but just to reinforce how foolish it is to judge a WR by their first year:

Just a snapshot of some of the rookie stats from WR on this season's leaderboard in catches and/or yards
[b]
Steve Smith-10 catches, 154 yds, 0 TD

Roddy White- 29 catches, 446 yds, 3 TD

Brandon Marshall- 20 catches, 309 yds, 2 TD

Vincent Jackson- 3 catches, 59 yds, 0 TD

TJ Housmanzadeh- 21 catches, 228 yds, 0 TD[/b]

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

You could give us Randy Moss and Steve Smith at WR, and it wouldn't matter if Campbell is getting hit every time he drops back to pass. I'm confident that all of the young receivers drafted last year have enough talent, but until we get better pass protection up front, our passing game is going nowhere.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=SBXVII;517136]^ I agree with you but I still say this;

[B]Then I would say we are screwed. Not cause I don't want an elite WR but cause we have basically a college coach trying to teach pros how to run routes. It has not worked in 5 yrs, we have had no production from our WR's in the last 5yrs, and anyone we picked up in the hopes they will make this team better appear to suck or can't get on the field due to lack of knowlege of the plays/routes. But lets not hold anyone accountable cause we can always pick up more next yr or draft another WR in hopes he will work out. The only reason Moss, ARE, and Thrash have worked out for us is cause they were trained prior to Hixon being here. Moss trained with the Jets, ARE trained with Pitt, and Thrash started here and got fine tuned in the WCO with the Eagles. No one else has produced. No one else has been developed since Hixon has gotten here. Everyone who had talent according to the team came, did ok or nothing at all, left and did better then here...ie; Coles, Patton, and Lloyd ring a bell. I'm afraid to ask where Mix went.[/B]

We can draft for the Lines. pick up some good LB, S, CB in free agency and if the coach had any balls replace Hixon with someone who will make a difference at their position and bring back Maurice Mann, McMullen, Mix, and pick up Marcus Monk....all WR's over 6-1 and have been cut by their teams. Develope them the right way and we have several decent WR's to use.[/quote]

Dude can you post that part in bold in a couple more threads cause i'm not sure [I]everyone[/I] on the board has seen it yet :cool:. Seriously, you and I are on the same page. I won't believe it if Zorn and the FO keep Hixon around, because I truly believe he's got the worst track record of any WR coach in the league right now. To my knowledge, and if i'm wrong on this someone please don't hesitate to correct me, Stan Hixon has not developed a single NFL receiver in 5+ years!!! That's incredible. He's inherited a few guys but certainly not taken anyone to a higher/better level then the day they showed up @ Redskins Park. [B]Hixon must go.[/B]

On the flip side, I believe we have the talent we need @ WR to be very competitive. We need a vast improvement in performance from this group but I believe the right coach can make it happen. It's a different story on the o-line, where there must be some personnel changes, but nonetheless we need vast improvement from this group as well. Finally, JC has to get to the next level. Of the 3 "units" I have the most confidence in JC getting there because Zorn is HC. We'll know whether the WR corp is going to improve based on Hixon retention. The o-line however will remain a wildcard IMHO until opening day of the regular season.

Hail!

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I think our WRs corps is fine, they just need better coaching, and as it has been repeatedly said, Hixon must go. The main problem has been the offensive line, we need a group of o-lineman that can play a whole season, not just half of it. In the second half of the season, JC had no time to throw. When he did have time to throw, the WRs where not open (hence the need for better coaching in that position).

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Ruhskins;517205]I think our WRs corps is fine, they just need better coaching, and as it has been repeatedly said, [B]Hixon must go[/B]. The main problem has been the offensive line, we need a group of o-lineman that can play a whole season, not just half of it. In the second half of the season, JC had no time to throw. When he did have time to throw, the WRs where not open (hence the need for better coaching in that position).[/quote]

You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit. How do any of us know whether or not Hixon is any good? We're not inside Redskin Park. But if we look at our wr's anyone can see that they're just not really that good. People crack me up when they actually think we have good wr's. We don't. And when they get open JC either doesn't have time to get them the ball or he misses the read and holds on to the ball.

Was ARE ever a #2 wr at Pittsburgh? No
Is Santana Moss a true #1 NFL wr? No.
Was James Thrash ever a good NFL wr? No
Do most rookie wr's struggle in their 1st years? Yes.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[B]Goat[/B], I thought maybe you went blind. LOL. I presume your being sarcastic;

[B]Dude can you post that part in bold in a couple more threads cause i'm not sure everyone on the board has seen it yet . [/B]

You didn't have my back on this one so I had to post it in as many places as possible in order to find you. lol. just kidding. Atleast I got someones attention.

[b]Skinsfan[/B], I took exception to the remark about Thrash never being good....so I took it upon myself to look up his stats on NFL.com. Amazingly enough your kinda right. He started out slow with us but he was the blue collar player people were rooting for kinda like Heyer when he came. Thrash had 2 rec. for 24yrds his first yr, 10 rec. for 163yrds his second yr, 3 rec. for 44 yrds his third yr, and 50 rec. for 653 yrds and ony 1 TD the whole 4 yrs. He did better his 5th yr in Philli but declined each yr, he only had 2 TD's the whole time with them. but he was always more of the positional WR. Someone to get you the first down and that was it.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;517133]Sorry but I strongly disagree that Wide Receiver is an issue on this team. We have to solid targets in Moss and Cooley, as well as talent coming up in Davis, Thomas, and Kelly. Sure one or two of them might end up as bust but the fact remains that we have two receiving threats off the LOS and in the NFL that's more then enough.

This receiving corps was more then enough during 6-2 when we were running the ball like mad men. It was when the running game broke down where the passing game fell apart. If you remember during those first 8 weeks CP led the league in rushing with 944 yards (on pace for 1,888) and 7 TD's. In the second half of the season he averaged 3.5 ypc with 2 TD's.

So with the running game gone our O-line, who was breaking down from old age at midseason, started to become a liability when teams decided they could unload on our QB and easily get the ball back after 3 and outs.

If anything we need new blood on the O-Line. Even if it means adding a RT, G, and C with our first three picks in the first three rounds (in this scenario we trade back) or better yet we get Jordan Gross in Free agency, draft Duke Robinson in the late first and find a quality center that falls through the cracks like Alex Mack. Maybe get a DT in between. Of course maybe I'm just a dreamer. Anyway we're a team that lives and dies with the running game just like the Vikings. I mean does anyone here think for a second that Tavaris Jackson is half as good as he is without the Vikings running game?

[B]Trust me, O-Line play means much more then Recievers. I mean look at the Cardinals they got two of the best receivers in the league paired with a quality QB in Warner and they barely went 9-7 in possibly the worst division in football.[/B] Of course we're not much better going 8-8 but our problems started when the running game went downhill.

Join me brothers in helping the Redskins rebuild a glorious offensive front.[/quote]
Great points Dirtbag. I also think we should take a hard look at Hixon as I've stated before. But Dirtbag has hit our biggest problem right on the head as far as I'm concerned. Can anyone imagine our Super Bowl teams without the HOGS? We had great Wideouts and a great RB but without the HOGS opening holes and giving our QB's time to throw the ball, does anyone really think we would have won 3 Super Bowls? How would they have done with the line we have now? These guys were so good you could tell the opposition what we were going to do and they couldn't stop it. Ask Riggo how important these guys were. Ask Williams, Theisman, or Rypien what it was like to play behind these guys. We'll get better behind a strong line. Remember Portis saying he would like to see what he could do behind some of the other lines in the league? [B]The line gets better, we get better[/B]. Jason needs to step up. It would probably be easier if he didn't have to wonder how the line was going to hold up from play to play.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

i know we all have high expectations for our 08 Draft Picks at WR.
BUT....What about...
[B]T.J. Houshmandzadeh[/B]
he could be a Free Agent. Him & Moss would be a deadly Starting Duo. I think Campbell would hit Houshy all day. I could see him being what we need.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

Build the lines and the talent at the skill positions will suddenly look much better.

We've got to give Thomas and Kelly more time as well.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

matty, why does that seem too hard for people to see? seems really obvious to me

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I cant see us drafting a WR...unless we get a big play WR (which I still find to be unlikely). I truely believe size has alot to do with our WR's. Santana is good but no steve smith...he is not a number one. Randle El is a joke. My hope is we utilize both Davis and Cooley somehow. Also I hope Thomas or Kelly breakout, but Im not holding my breath for that. The bottom line is we have hope with davis, thomas, and kelly, and because of that hope we won't get anyone else. We have too many needs elsewhere were there is no hope due to age (OL).

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

This is absurd. Our WR's looked just fine before the offensive line broke down. While not an elite unit by a mile or three, they are good enough to be successful when the rest of the offense is functioning correctly, as we saw earlier in the season. There are too many more glaring needs to be addressed on this team before we can even think about bringing in another wideout.

Moreover, I really do expect more from at least one of the rookies next year, and I think it's conceivable they could all contribute a lot more. Regardless though, when we drafted 3 receivers in the second round last year Vinnie effectively made our bed for the next couple seasons.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

I just think Devin Thomas in specific and solely should be getting with the program and will make an impact next season. Santana will always look impressive without question.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=djnemo65;517393]This is absurd. Our WR's looked just fine before the offensive line broke down. While not an elite unit by a mile or three, they are good enough to be successful when the rest of the offense is functioning correctly, as we saw earlier in the season. There are too many more glaring needs to be addressed on this team before we can even think about bringing in another wideout.

Moreover, I really do expect more from at least one of the rookies next year, and I think it's conceivable they could all contribute a lot more. Regardless though, when we drafted 3 receivers in the second round last year Vinnie effectively made our bed for the next couple seasons.[/quote]

I agree with everyone that states that the offensive line is a much bigger priority than the WR position. Our Wideouts were fine in the first half of the season, when there was some semblance of pass protection, and Portis ran the ball well.

If we are going to look at tweaking our WR group, then I really don't think you need to get a TJ Housh. I think our rooks have talent, and have the potential to be very good next season. They got their kinks out of the way this year, and they will have a full training camp to get them up to speed, which in turn will help them get in sync with Campbell. That along with Moss, ARE, and Cooley, I just don't see the need to bring or draft anymore wideouts, save maybe for a replacement for Thrash.

Earlier I criticized the coaching of wideouts, b/c I noticed throughout the latter part of the season, that in those rare moments when Campbell had time to throw, the WRs were not open beyond the 1st down marker. I think this even happened earlier in the season when they were doing well. So maybe a new position coach can help develop the rookies, and help our wideouts get open.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

[quote=Hail to the Redskins;517068]Ok, you know, the more I have thought about why our offense is just NOT helping us over the top, I started to realize something...

Wide Receiver is STILL the most glaring weakness on this football team, over O-Line & D-Line.

I am kind of combining thoughts I put on other various threads, but here are some points I want to make:

[B]What we HAVE at receiver[/B]:

* One short, above-average receiver who was doubled for the MAJORITY of the season. (Moss)
* One short receiver who really isn't a "receiver" that runs crisp routes, escapes jams, and is finding holes in the D. (Randel El)
* One “tall” receiver who only started one year as a WR in college and doesn't seem very bright as the coaches & QB didn't REALLY trust him being out there as a target on plays. (Thomas)
* One “tall” receiver with the knees of a 37 year-old offensive lineman and again, not too bright with the playbook as he was healthy enough at times and still was INACTIVE. (Kelly)
* TWO really good receiving tight ends (Cooley & Davis) playing in a West Coast Offense that doesn't exactly use the Gibbs two TE set that often. (lol) It's SUPPOSED to be a 3 WR set most times

[B]Why this was a HUGE issue for us in 2008[/B]:

Our Wide Receivers made EVERYONE else on offense look worse. Think about many of the sacks/runs by Campbell had this year and you notice that many times he would plant and hold or pump fake, because no one was open down field. I really do think this was the reason for at LEAST a quarter of the sacks this season, which made our O-Line look bad.

Our running game suffered at the end of the season because the rest of the league figured out that they needed to just play up at the line, jamming Moss/Randel El and cover Moss over the top as well as the simple fact that EVERYONE figured out that our offense WAS the run game and started playing up tight with linebackers & safties with no fear of our receivers. If we had even an AVERAGE passing offense (that included stretching the field), the run game would come back.

[B]Why this is STILL a huge issue for 2009[/B]:

Basically, I am pretty sure we are going to have the same well below average WRs as this year (because I just don't see Cerrato going there again).

We have to hope that:
* One gets smart quick (Thomas)
* One gets Earnest Ainsley to HHHEEEAAAALL (!) those knees (Kelly)
* Zorn figures out how to use TWO TE's in the WCO (Davis).

[B]My Opinion[/B]:

Imagine if we were to do something at WR this offseason? People would flip out after taking 2 in the 2nd round last year.

I know I may get reamed for this but, I REALLY think that we might be well served to go after a T.J. “Whoseyourmamma” Houshmandzadeh. Really.

If we have him & Moss as 1 & 2, then Randel El/Thomas/Kelly can battle it out for the 3rd receiver in our 3 man sets. The main thing is... we'd have a REAL wide RECEIVER that knows how to run routes, has great hands and is PROVEN in the league. I also think that it would have a TREMENDOUS effect on Santana Moss' success. Think about it. Since he's been here, there has been absolutely NO threat on the other side of the field at WR... it could only open things back up for him. And our O-Linemen look SOOOO much better when receivers are open, Campbell is getting rid of the ball & not holding it, and all of this softens the defense for the run game.

I know that I'm gonna be called crazy for saying spend money on him over a lineman, but I think our entire draft should be focused on the O& D-Lines and that Samuels/Kendall/Rabach/Thomas/Jansen/Heyer can be effective for another year until Rinehart & whoever we draft get ready.

What are your thoughts on our WR crew for 2009? Who will line up for us? Who should? Do you have faith that Thomas & Kelly will help us win next year?[/quote]

This is Vinny C logic. Games are won on the line of scrimage...until our front office starts thinking that way we will never have sustained success.

Re: Our WRs in 2009... My Thoughts
 

It would be absurd to draft a WR in 2009. We need to focus on O-line, D-line, and maybe a LB in the later rounds with Fletch getting older and MW falling off.