Police Execution?
 

Is [URL="http://www.ktvu.com/news/18412851/detail.html#-"]this[/URL] an execution or a justifiable shooting? You be the judge:

[YT]IKy-WSZMklc[/YT]

Re: Police Execution?
 

this is horrible! I wonder if the officer thought he was going for his teaser. I noticed cops wear their guns with the butt pointing behind and the teaser the butt is pointing forward.

If that guy they were arresting had no weapons this was an execution!

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=mredskins;518164]this is horrible! [B]I wonder if the officer thought he was going for his teaser[/B]. I noticed cops wear their guns with the butt pointing behind and the teaser the butt is pointing forward.

If that guy they were arresting had no weapons this was an execution![/quote]


I wonder if that's possible. Can you confuse teaser with a gun? I know we have a former Police Officer in the forum, maybe he can answer that.

Re: Police Execution?
 

there is no excuse for what happened. the guy was in custody, laying face down, handcuffed. why he would even have a gun pointed at him is a mystery

Re: Police Execution?
 

I don't see how you confuse the two. I mean I guess you could grab one for the other but to draw it, point it and fire, especially based on the video, would be basically impossible unless the guy just panicked. I wish we could hear more but seriously that was f'ed up. I think it is hard to be a police officer. You have to walk a very thin line between protecting yourself and those around you versus going overboard. Unfortunately I think the culture within that field gravitates towards over-reaction. I appreciate the jobs that police do but based on every single cop I have met and known I can't say there is one I have personally liked. I don't why that is but they all just seem like big a-holes to me. I am pretty biased against cops I guess. Am I crazy?

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=dmek25;518175]there is no excuse for what happened. the guy was in custody, laying face down, handcuffed. why he would even have a gun pointed at him is a mystery[/quote]

The guy was not handcuffed at that point. It looks as the officer is trying to pull the mans arm out from under him and then steps back and fires. Did he think he saw a weapon? Who Knows but it almost looked that way as he pulled his arm out and stepped back. I'd hate to think he just backed off and fired but its just too hard to tell.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[B]I appreciate the jobs that police do but based on every single cop I have met and known I can't say there is one I have personally liked. I don't why that is but they all just seem like big a-holes to me. I am pretty biased against cops I guess. Am I crazy?[/B]

I agree most are d*cks, they have this better then you type aura about them and my Grandfather was a 25 year vet of the Providence Police Dept. and he was a d*ck.

Basically I look at cops as Kevin James in Mall Cop, useless.

Re: Police Execution?
 

there is definitely a pretty big problem with the authority cops get in the us. i don't know if its the prerequisites and pay, or what but there's a certain personality type that gravitates toward that job, and then the seniors in positions at the departments generally promote a certain behavior that borders extreme and paranoia.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[I]Absent additional facts[/I], it was a cold-blooded execution and the police officer should be facing murder charges.

As a general matter, let me say that police have a very dangerous job and the overwhelming majority of officers are honorable, competent, well-intentioned, and deserve our respect and thanks. However, I also think there are far too many police officers with poor character, who were motivated to become police officers for the wrong reasons, and who abuse their power. Worse still, I believe a significant minority of police officers are too quick to use physical or deadly force and, all too often, get off with a minor slap on the wirst.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;518227][I]Absent additional facts[/I], it was a cold-blooded execution and the police officer should be facing murder charges.

As a general matter, let me say that police have a very dangerous job and the overwhelming majority of officers are honorable, competent, well-intentioned, and deserve our respect and thanks. However, I also think there are far too many police officers with poor character, who were motivated to become police officers for the wrong reasons, and who abuse their power. Worse still, I believe a significant minority of police officers are too quick to use physical or deadly force and, all too often, get off with a minor slap on the wirst.[/quote]

I agree it should be be viewed as murder knowing what we know.

I am basing my thoughts on police officers on the signifcant amount of them that I know well enough to pass some informed judgement on their character and personality. I don't know why they become police officers. I would speculate that most do so out of honor and a sense of decency. I do know that the culture must instill into them a superior attitude because I, without even a hint of hyperbole, have never known one that I thought was a decent person overall. Everey single one I ever knew was at best just an a-hole towards non-officers. I know I am seriosuly generalizing and I can certainly admit that there has to be a good amount of decent and honrable police officers. I applaud most all cops, dicks and non-dicks, for putting their life on the line to protect us. I respect what they do a great deal. But I don't like them and I can certainly see where a second year cop with perhaps a little bit of panic in a hostile environment can draw a weapon, aim it and fire on an unprotected suspect. I think it's because they only see the bad in people always.

Re: Police Execution?
 

This is cold blooded murder. If the kid was squirming it was probably because of unnecessary pain he was put in. It was obvious he was against the wall and cooperating. Why not ask him to stand, put his hands behind his back, etc. Instead they just roll him over and start tugging.

Re: Police Execution?
 

:bump::bump::bump:I BUMPED THIS THREAD SO HOPEFULLY PEOPLE WILL GO TO THE LAST PAGE AND CONTINUE THE DISCUSSION THERE,
THIS HAPPENED IN 2009, not NOV 2010

[quote=Sheriff Gonna Getcha;518227][B][I]Absent additional facts[/I][/B], it was a cold-blooded execution and the police officer should be facing murder charges.

As a general matter, let me say that police have a very dangerous job and the overwhelming majority of officers are honorable, competent, well-intentioned, and deserve our respect and thanks. However, I also think there are far too many police officers with poor character, who were motivated to become police officers for the wrong reasons, and who abuse their power. Worse still, I believe a significant minority of police officers are too quick to use physical or deadly force and, all too often, get off with a minor slap on the wirst.[/quote]

I agree with this whole post. But it is key to say "absent additional facts". In neither video can one see clearly what is happening, and if the victim is taking that long to be cuffed, I promise you he is not cooperating. There are many small dangerous items that he could have started to pull out that threatened these cops. Or it could have been the stupidest, coldest of murders. I doubt that this BART security guy had an intent before the wrestling started to execute a man on a public platform (where undoubtedly surveillance cameras are located as well as two shaky cell phone views, one of which does not show the shooting at all). And chances are he will lose his job, and probably go to jail, but its still awful hard to believe he just came to work hoping for a chance to kill.
Bottomline, I hope the truth (whichever way it falls) comes out, and justice is done(but I doubt that - again - whichever way it falls).

Re: Police Execution?
 

That, if it is how it looks, is just about the most appalling video i've ever watched. I mean that I don't see the kid really thrashing in a struggle - i think the criterion here is whether his behavior could cause death to the officers or a bystander, and it clearly looks as though he could not have - nor does it look like at anytime he reached for a weapon. Indeed if he did not even have a gun on him this is flat out murder.

I'm very derisive of police officers and wouldn't say more except that many have already made similar comments. IMHO all law enforcement officials should be held to the highest standard(s) and thus punishment should be just as sweeping. If that kid didn't have a gun the officer should be executed by a court of law (i want to say publicly executed but for all we know the meatheaded shitsack has a decent family...). The other officers should have stopped him from drawing his weapon and therefor should be fired and barred from ever serving again anywhere.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=Daseal;518381]This is cold blooded murder. If the kid was squirming it was probably because of unnecessary pain he was put in. It was obvious he was against the wall and cooperating. [B] Why not ask him to stand, put his hands behind his back, etc[/B]. Instead they just roll him over and start tugging.[/quote]

So you were there? you know what they told him to do? They had the others handcuffed, logic would say that somehow he was resisting that idea? Maybe when he raised his hands the first time, and was described by an onlooker as saying its ok, is actually when they first attempted to handcuff him, and he pulled his hands back and told the security guards to back off. I was not there, we don't hear the conversation, and clearly the girl was more sympathetic to the fighters than the guards. Go figure.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;518409]So you were there? you know what they told him to do? They had the others handcuffed, logic would say that somehow he was resisting that idea? Maybe when he raised his hands the first time, and was described by an onlooker as saying its ok, is actually when they first attempted to handcuff him, and he pulled his hands back and told the security guards to back off. I was not there, we don't hear the conversation, and clearly the girl was more sympathetic to the fighters than the guards. Go figure.[/quote]

Well, all this may be true and the officer will have his opportunity in court to present any and all explanations. But police kill people a lot in this country, especially minorities, and I think it's sad that so often the burden of proof seems to fall on the guy that got killed. In this case, in which both a witness and a video strongly suggest excessive violence on the part of the police officer, your reaction is to give presumption to the officer, questioning the credibility of the witness and even the video itself.

I think this reaction is far too common - to assume that the victim must have been doing [I]something[/I] wrong - and it helps explain the shocking frequency with which police officers walk away from these types of incidents unpunished.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;518409]So you were there? you know what they told him to do? They had the others handcuffed, logic would say that somehow he was resisting that idea? Maybe when he raised his hands the first time, and was described by an onlooker as saying its ok, is actually when they first attempted to handcuff him, and he pulled his hands back and told the security guards to back off. I was not there, we don't hear the conversation, and clearly the girl was more sympathetic to the fighters than the guards. Go figure.[/quote]

R u a cop? As I said the burden of proof from what i understand is the suspect must pose a life-threatening risk to the officers or bystanders to justify lethal force. R u seriously contending anything about that looked life threatening?

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=djnemo65;518413]Well, all this may be true and the officer will have his opportunity in court to present any and all explanations. But police kill people a lot in this country, especially minorities, and I think it's sad that so often the burden of proof seems to fall on the guy that got killed. In this case, in which both a witness and a video strongly suggest excessive violence on the part of the police officer, your reaction is to give presumption to the officer, questioning the credibility of the witness and even the video itself.

I think this reaction is far too common - to assume that the victim must have been doing [I]something[/I] wrong - and it helps explain the shocking frequency with which police officers walk away from these types of incidents unpunished.[/quote]

Well said. Thank you!!!

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=The Goat;518415]R u a cop? As I said the burden of proof from what i understand is the suspect must pose a life-threatening risk to the officers or bystanders to justify lethal force. R u seriously contending anything about that looked life threatening?[/quote]

I was a military policeman for a few years, and personally I don't really trust or like most cops. That said, from the video presented you don't see the victim clearly, or I couldn't. You can't hear what is said, or what is happening on the ground. Believe me, the burden of proof absolutely lies with the group of security guards. [B]They had 3 men trying to control one man, they will have to show that the victim indeed did have a weapon and was in a position to use it. [/B]
My point is that female witness did not see it, she said she was distracted. And that the video that did show the shooting is not clear enough(again no audio, no clear view of the victims hands), and that the victim was resisting. As I said before-
I hope that the truth comes out (whichever way it goes) and that justice is served. I don't have very much faith in our system that either of those two things will happen.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=djnemo65;518413]Well, all this may be true and the officer will have his opportunity in court to present any and all explanations. But police kill people a lot in this country, especially minorities, and I think it's sad that so often the burden of proof seems to fall on the guy that got killed. In this case, in which both a witness and a video strongly suggest excessive violence on the part of the police officer, your reaction is to give presumption to the officer, questioning the credibility of the witness and even the video itself.

I think this reaction is far too common - to assume that the victim must have been doing [I]something[/I] wrong - and it helps explain the shocking frequency with which police officers walk away from these types of incidents unpunished.[/quote]

My reaction is to not be knee jerk about it. If the killing was unwarranted he should be treated as a murderer. But to say based on that video that you have the insight of being on the scene is outrageous. The reason a cop gets the benefit of the doubt is simple:
At the start of the incident the guard is not involved in any illegal activity, the victim is. The victim was initially the aggressor. That is why the guard came into contact with him to begin with.

And I would like to know the stats on "police kill lots of people" vs the number of people that interact with police in potentially dangerous situations. Or the "shocking frequency" that they walk away. Those two statements sound more like media/cultural myth then real facts.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality]Police brutality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

[quote]While the prevalence of police brutality in the United States is not comprehensively documented, statistics on the use of physical force by law enforcement are available. For example, an extensive U.S. Department of Justice report on police use of force released in 2001 indicated that in 1999, "approximately ]422,000 people 16 years old and older were estimated to have had contact with police in which force or the threat of force was used."[13]

Statistics on police brutality are much less available. The few statistics that exist include a 2006 Department of Justice report, which showed that out of[B] 26,556 citizen complaints[/B] about excessive use of police force among large U.S. agencies (representing 5% of agencies and 59% of officers) in 2002, [B]about 2000 were found to have merit[/B].[14]
[/quote]

The whole article is very interesting, and various numbers and statistics provide reasons to be cynical.
I tried to find some sort of statistic that showed the statement "But police kill people a lot in this country" from djnemo65 to be factual, but couldn't. Partly, it depends on your definition of "a lot".
Googling "police brutality statistics" gives several interesting articles.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=The Goat;518415]R u a cop? As I said the burden of proof from what i understand is the suspect must pose a life-threatening risk to the officers or bystanders to justify lethal force. R u seriously contending anything about that looked life threatening?[/quote]
I like others here do not really have a clue why the officer fired at the kid but watch the second video again. It looks to me that the officer is trying to get the guys arm out from under him and behind his back. When he finally gets his arm out thats when he steps back and fires at the boy. To me it looks like the officer saw something in his hand that may have looked like a gun and he reacted. Then again he could have just shot the kid but that to me just does not make sense with all the witnesses standing around.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=firstdown;518548]I like others here do not really have a clue why the officer fired at the kid but watch the second video again. It looks to me that the officer is trying to get the guys arm out from under him and behind his back. When he finally gets his arm out thats when he steps back and fires at the boy. To me it looks like the officer saw something in his hand that may have looked like a gun and he reacted. Then again he could have just shot the kid but that to me just does not make sense with all the witnesses standing around.[/quote]


He has one officer knee on his head and this guy on his bottom side, on top of that he is faced down. I don't know if he had anything on him but it doesn't makes sense for the officer to get off of him, stand back, wait for the other officer to get off of him, take a few seconds to get his gun out and shoot. Something is wrong with your mental picture, not the video.


This is not Brazil, we're "a nation of laws."

[yt]vlDVaEWsmRo[/yt]

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=saden1;518575]He has one officer knee on his head and this guy on his bottom side, on top of that he is faced down. I don't know if he had anything on him but it doesn't makes sense for the officer to get off of him, stand back, wait for the other officer to get off of him, take a few seconds to get his gun out and shoot. Something is wrong with your mental picture, not the video.


This is not Brazil, we're "a nation of laws."

[yt]vlDVaEWsmRo[/yt][/quote]

Yea, the whole thing is strange I guess I just have a hard time believing that the officer in that situation with all those whitnesses would do that.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;518513][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality]Police brutality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]



The whole article is very interesting, and various numbers and statistics provide reasons to be cynical.
I tried to find some sort of statistic that showed the statement "But police kill people a lot in this country" from djnemo65 to be factual, but couldn't. Partly, it depends on your definition of "a lot".
Googling "police brutality statistics" gives several interesting articles.[/quote]

It was an anecdotal claim, one that can't be verified with statistics since those types of statistics aren't kept by the DOJ. Even if they were, you can't qualify "a lot" as "factual" since it's a relative term.

Anyway, the issue is not the incidence of police violence in this country (which I'm guessing falls somewhere between Denmark and Zaire, although I don't know and neither do you) but rather the acquittal rate of police officers accused of excessive violence, often in spite of inculpating evidence. Again, speaking anecdotally, the police have walked with little to no punishment in almost every case I can remember. I found it particularly illustrative that, in this case, in which a video and witness testimony appear to be pretty damning for the officer, you have taken it upon yourself to be this cop’s Jonny Cochran - questioning the credibility of the video and witness and everything but the officer himself. I think in such a case as this it is important that we hold the officer to the same standards we hold other citizens. While we all accept the officer’s right to use lethal force when necessary, this comes with limits, and in this case they appear to have been breached.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=firstdown;518548]I like others here do not really have a clue why the officer fired at the kid but watch the second video again. It looks to me that the officer is trying to get the guys arm out from under him and behind his back. When he finally gets his arm out thats when he steps back and fires at the boy. To me it looks like the officer saw something in his hand that may have looked like a gun and he reacted. Then again he could have just shot the kid but that to me just does not make sense with all the witnesses standing around.[/quote]I have to disagree with you. I think that if the officer felt that the victim may have had a weapon he would have acted faster, and altered the other officers. He just seemed to pull his gun out kind of slowly, IMO, like maybe he was just going to threaten the victim and it went off. I also think that if the cop thought he saw a weapon that would have been reported right away because it offers at least some kind of justification.
I kind of agree with MRedskins in that it almost seems like he was going for his taser, but I have no idea how he could have made a mistake like that.

In any case, that is completely horrible and I think that officer needs to be fired immediately and he should face some at least some kind of negligence charges.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/07/BART.shooting/index.html]Spokesman: Officer in subway shooting has resigned - CNN.com[/url]

Witnesses say the poor kid had been encouraging those in his group to cooperate and stay calm. He also asked not to be "tased" because he had a young daughter.

Re: Police Execution?
 

Negligent discharge would be my best guess.

'Execution' is way too incendiary a word but 'Accident' doesn't go far enough.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=RedskinRat;518764]Negligent discharge would be my best guess.

[B]'Execution' is way too incendiary a word[/B] but 'Accident' doesn't go far enough.[/quote]


What about the Brazilian Police video?

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=djnemo65;518752]It was an anecdotal claim, one that can't be verified with statistics since those types of statistics aren't kept by the DOJ. Even if they were, you can't qualify "a lot" as "factual" since it's a relative term.

Anyway, the issue is not the incidence of police violence in this country (which I'm guessing falls somewhere between Denmark and Zaire, although I don't know and neither do you) but rather the acquittal rate of police officers accused of excessive violence, often in spite of inculpating evidence. Again, speaking anecdotally, the police have walked with little to no punishment in almost every case I can remember. I found it particularly illustrative that, in this case, in which a video and witness testimony appear to be pretty damning for the officer,[B] you have taken it upon yourself to be this cop’s Jonny Cochran - questioning the credibility of the video and witness[/B] and everything but the officer himself. I think in such a case as this it is important that we hold the officer to the same standards we hold other citizens. While we all accept the officer’s right to use lethal force when necessary, this comes with limits, and in this case they appear to have been breached.[/quote]
I really wasn't trying to question the credibility, just pointing out limitations on what was shown. The same standard as other citizens would theoretically be "innocent until proven guilty" but we all know that is a joke.

finally, here is another view, this one is much clearer, I believe as you can hear the onlookers comments and get a better feel. And yes it does look like the guard came in with a purpose and intent to "get this guy".

[url=http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/01/06/18559091.php]New Footage of Oakland Man Murdered By BART Cop : Indybay[/url]

Re: Police Execution?
 

I'm going overly aggressive dumb cop committing gross negligence. [B]IF[/B] he freaked out and meant to grab the taser but grabbed his gun and still followed through with his intent to fire at the victim then he needs to find a different, less stressful job. He's already resigned but I don't think he should ever be employed as a law enforcement official and the BART should pay the $20 million, or whatever, to the victim's family.

No matter what angle you see this with, this sucks all around for everyone.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[url=http://www.ktvu.com/news/18434205/detail.html]Emotions Erupt; Dozens Arrested In Violent BART Protest - News Story - KTVU San Francisco[/url]

I guess this was to be expected.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=djnemo65;518752]It was an anecdotal claim, one that can't be verified with statistics since those types of statistics aren't kept by the DOJ. Even if they were, you can't qualify "a lot" as "factual" since it's a relative term.

Anyway, the issue is not the incidence of police violence in this country (which I'm guessing falls somewhere between Denmark and Zaire, although I don't know and neither do you) but rather the acquittal rate of police officers accused of excessive violence, often in spite of inculpating evidence. Again, speaking anecdotally, the police have walked with little to no punishment in almost every case I can remember.[I][U] I found it particularly illustrative that, in this case, in which a video and witness testimony[B] appear[/B] to be pretty damning for the officer, you have taken it upon yourself to be this cop’s Jonny Cochran - questioning the credibility of the video and witness and everything but the officer himself. I think in such a case as this it is important that we hold the officer to the same standards we hold other citizens.[/I][/U] While we all accept the officer’s right to use lethal force when necessary, this comes with limits, and in this case they appear to have been breached.[/quote]

"Appear" is the key word here. I agree it [I]appears[/I] pretty damning. Does that mean the guy should be denied his day in court? Are we now going to put every crime up to a vote based on appearances? Because we [I]are[/I] a nation supposedly subject to the Rule of Law, the cop is entitled to "the same standards we hold other cititzens". If it's a slam dunk case (as it appears), fine. Let him present evidence in his defense and then he can be judged. Right now, any assertion as to the reasons for his actions are highly speculative.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote]IF he freaked out and meant to grab the taser but grabbed his gun and still followed through with his intent to fire at the victim then he needs to find a different, less stressful job.[/quote]

Hopefully his new job is banging out license plates in a state prison. After a long day of that, his roommate, bubba, has a long day stamping his license plate.

Re: Police Execution?
 

While I don't agree with what seemed to have transpired in this incident, nobody is talking about what got the police all fired up and called out there in the first place. If these people were not causing trouble of some sort, why were the cops called? 2am on New Years...get your ass home and stay out of trouble, its really not that difficult if you ask me.

It's like the professional athletes that we see get in trouble for DUI, drugs, etc. Keep yourself isolated from potential trouble and the chances of you being arrested, harrassed, or even shot by the police are very minimal.

Re: Police Execution?
 

It's New Years!!!! If there's one day of the year where people have a legit reason to be out at 2 am it's f'ing New Years!!! Especially if they're riding the train rather than getting hammered and driving!

Re: Police Execution?
 

[url=http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/08/BART.shooting/index.html]Riots erupt in Oakland after slain father laid to rest - CNN.com[/url]

At least 105 people arrested and probably going to get worse. I think a little common sense does wonders here as to what really happened. Obviously the police chief, DA and mayor would want to do everything possible to justify what happened and calm people down. The most cogent statement they could make is something to the effect of "the kid had a gun on his person" or "officers saw what they thought was a gun" or something to that effect. All we have is silence, and remember there are at least 3 videos of the incident they have reviewed - two station cameras and the phone video - which tells a reasonable person there is nothing that shows a weapon of any kind. Add the simple fact nobody at the scene, including the cops, have mentioned anything about a weapon.

Re: Police Execution?
 

Seems to me like no on is trying to make any excuses for the officer. I believe in innocent until proven guilty, I champion it, but that's a seriously damning video. Even if the kid verbally assaulted the officer, or had a knife on his person, hell, even if he had a gun on him there's no excuse for the sequence of action that took place as seen in the video. Clearly if he had a gun he could have used the gun on the officers, you know, before they had him on the ground, facing down and with two of them on top of him.

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=saden1;518992]It's New Years!!!! If there's one day of the year where people have a legit reason to be out at 2 am it's f'ing New Years!!! Especially if they're riding the train rather than getting hammered and driving![/quote]

Very true...but I just don't understand the circumstances of those people being yanked off the train in the first place. Was it a random? Was it a hit? Were they causing trouble? Even if they were causing trouble I am sure it was nothing to get shot over, but my point is if you weren't causing trouble your ass wouldn't be sitting against a wall being detained by the police in the first place.

Re: Police Execution?
 

what i dont understand is all the vilolence thats happening because of this. the cop will get his. what does burning shit, and stealing stuff have to do with it?

Re: Police Execution?
 

[quote=dmek25;519091]...what does burning shit, and stealing stuff have to do with it?[/quote]

It's a [I]TRADITION[/I], FFS!