taxes and health care
 

[URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29703278"][COLOR=#07519a]NYT: Obama open to healthcare tax[/COLOR][/URL]
boy, i hope they don't go thru with this. and if they do, does it include congress?

Re: taxes and health care
 

[quote=dmek25;537040][URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29703278"][COLOR=#07519a]NYT: Obama open to healthcare tax[/COLOR][/URL]
boy, i hope they don't go thru with this. and if they do, does it include congress?[/quote]

dmek, how can you be for universal healthcare but not for this?

Re: taxes and health care
 

[quote=Schneed10;537043]dmek, how can you be for universal healthcare but not for this?[/quote]
Schneed these are two different things. This idea would tax the person who receivies health ins. from their employer as income. So if your employer provides you health insurance and it cost them $6,000 per year you will be taxed on that as income. Now, the business can write it off as an expense and the employer receives the benifit without having to pay taxes on this benefit. Universal Health Ins. is goverment run health Insurance and they tax businesses and individuals to pay for the program. This is just another way for Obama to raise taxes while they say they are not increasing taxes just saying you have to pay taxes for this benefit. There will be more so just sit back and hold on to your wallet.[IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon13.gif[/IMG]

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We wouldn't be in this mess if more people were like me. I haven't seen a doctor since 1992 and I feel fantastic. "No quack sawbones is going to apply their leaches to me."

Re: taxes and health care
 

Health insurance is a racket. I stopped mine when I got into an auto accident and they wouldn't pay for my emergency room visit. That means I was paying a hundred dollars a month for squat.

Do what I do. If you really need to go to the doctor then find a good family doctor and pay him cash. Mine gives me a discount for cash.

If you've a serious injury go to the emergency room. What's money when you're bleeding to death or your skull's split open? If you don't have insurance they give you a discount too! This happened to me the last time an old lady got her foot stuck in the acclerator and broadsided me in a parking lot. As soon as they found out I had no insurance they gave me a 45% discount right off the top.

If you have kids then you'll have to find a different schtick.

If you really want to stick it to the man. Go to the hospital and tell them your name is (Jose Lorca Ramirez Gonzalez Canseco Cruz) when anything hurts or you just have a sniffle. Make sure you disguise your voice like the Taco Bell dog. Give them some dummy SSN from some dead person, pay for one, or just make one up. They don't fingerprint you! When they send you a bill (assuming you gave them the right address) tell them that that person moved back to their country of origin, or you're Jose Ramirez and you don't know Jose Canseco. Didn't he play for the As? There you go, free national health care courtesy of the U.S. tax payer.

Think it doesn't work? Millions of people do it everyday. Why do you think it cost so much now? I mean it's not like they've cured cancer or AIDS.

Disclaimer: I have never committed fraud and do not advocate that anyone does for any reason. I've always used my SSN and have never gone by anything other than my given name or hey you.

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[quote=firstdown;537048]Schneed these are two different things. This idea would tax the person who receivies health ins. from their employer as income. So if your employer provides you health insurance and it cost them $6,000 per year you will be taxed on that as income. Now, the business can write it off as an expense and the employer receives the benifit without having to pay taxes on this benefit. Universal Health Ins. is goverment run health Insurance and they tax businesses and individuals to pay for the program. This is just another way for Obama to raise taxes while they say they are not increasing taxes just saying you have to pay taxes for this benefit. There will be more so just sit back and hold on to your wallet.[IMG]http://www.thewarpath.net/images/icons/icon13.gif[/IMG][/quote]

Thanks, I'm well aware of the differences. But taxing employees on their health insurance and taxing to fund universal health care have one important thing in common: increased taxes.

I don't see how you can be for universal health care but at the same time against this. Unless you're completely oblivious to the funding source.

Re: taxes and health care
 

[quote=Schneed10;537139]Thanks, I'm well aware of the differences. But taxing employees on their health insurance and taxing to fund universal health care have one important thing in common: increased taxes.

I don't see how you can be for universal health care but at the same time against this. Unless you're completely oblivious to the funding source.[/quote]
The crowd for Universal Health care look at it as something great but taxing their current coverage is just money out of their pocket. If universal health insurance does ever get passed it will be real interesting to see how peoples views change as their taxes go up 7 to 9 grand per year.

Re: taxes and health care
 

[quote=firstdown;537195]The crowd for Universal Health care look at it as something great but taxing their current coverage is just money out of their pocket. If universal health insurance does ever get passed it will be real interesting to see how peoples views change as their taxes go up 7 to 9 grand per year.[/quote]

Maybe that's the issue, maybe folks aren't understanding exactly how expensive it would be to cover everybody (unless you want shoddy coverage).

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Taxing private health benefits is retarded. Instead of dancing around and trying to be "creative" they aught tax everyone equally. I think Oprah said it best, "you get taxed, you get taxed, you get taxed, everyone gets taxed."

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[quote=saden1;537213]Taxing private health benefits is retarded. Instead of dancing around and trying to be "creative" they aught tax everyone equally. I think Oprah said it best, "you get taxed, you get taxed, you get taxed, everyone gets taxed."[/quote]

Man card, please. You're quoting Oprah.

If everyone is getting taxed equally for the healthcare portion of their taxes, aren't you simply eliminating all choice? I would no longer pay for my private insurance, neither would my employer, instead I'd get taxed for a universal plan which may or may not fit my needs. I don't see how that's better.

Secondly, there's a reason so many people go without health coverage right now, they can't afford it. Just because you're coming up with a universal plan doesn't mean it will be any less expensive than HMOs available now. If you're adding a level tax to everyone to cover it, the poor will not be able to afford it.

Re: taxes and health care
 

It should be noted that the word "universal" does not mean universal coverage. It means it covers all citizens.

It absolutely does not mean all medical expenses would be covered. To make universal coverage remotely feasible from a financial perspective the coverage would have to be akin to what Medicaid HMOs currently provide (ie, terrible). You'd be hard pressed to get coverage for elective (non-emergency) surgeries.

Re: taxes and health care
 

[quote=Schneed10;537220]You'd be hard pressed to get coverage for elective (non-emergency) surgeries.[/quote]

What kinds of surgeries are these?

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[quote=Schneed10;537217]Man card, please. You're quoting Oprah.

If everyone is getting taxed equally for the healthcare portion of their taxes, aren't you simply eliminating all choice? I would no longer pay for my private insurance, neither would my employer, instead I'd get taxed for a universal plan which may or may not fit my needs. I don't see how that's better.

Secondly, there's a reason so many people go without health coverage right now, they can't afford it. Just because you're coming up with a universal plan doesn't mean it will be any less expensive than HMOs available now. If you're adding a level tax to everyone to cover it, the poor will not be able to afford it.[/quote]
I agree the quoting of Oprah. Well for any plan to get passed a heavy burden of the taxes will be on the employer then on the individual. This will cause the employer to cut back to make up the money in other ways. The poor will still get a free ride under any plan.

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[quote=FRPLG;537222]What kinds of surgeries are these?[/quote]

Angioplasties to clear a blocked artery. Pacemaker implants to regulate an irregular heartbeat. Gastric Bypass and Lapband surgeries for obesity. And many many more.

Some HMOs out there deny coverage for some of these types of procedures. Which is semi-retarded because many of them prevent more costly treatment down the road.

Re: taxes and health care
 

[quote=Schneed10;537217]Man card, please. You're quoting Oprah.

If everyone is getting taxed equally for the healthcare portion of their taxes, aren't you simply eliminating all choice? I would no longer pay for my private insurance, neither would my employer, instead I'd get taxed for a universal plan which may or may not fit my needs. I don't see how that's better.

Secondly, there's a reason so many people go without health coverage right now, they can't afford it. Just because you're coming up with a universal plan doesn't mean it will be any less expensive than HMOs available now. If you're adding a level tax to everyone to cover it, the poor will not be able to afford it.[/quote]

LOL, it's a play on "you get a car," plus I am comfortable with my masculinity.


I think going in the plan was to get everyone base insurance (prevention) and if people want more than can pay for it. The Japanese model, the one That Guy loves so much, might be worth looking into.

Re: taxes and health care
 

[quote=Schneed10;537225]Angioplasties to clear a blocked artery. Pacemaker implants to regulate an irregular heartbeat. Gastric Bypass and Lapband surgeries for obesity. And many many more.

Some HMOs out there deny coverage for some of these types of procedures. Which is semi-retarded because many of them prevent more costly treatment down the road.[/quote]

Is the theory that most employees won't be working for a company and won't have that same insurance when the repurcussions come to pass? So insurers don't want to pay for preventative measures that some other insurance company will enjoy someday? Or are they simply obtuse?

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[quote]Which is semi-retarded because many of them prevent more costly treatment down the road.[/quote]

Kinda when my dental insurance wouldn't pay for some sort of sealant for my teeth that prevents damage down the road. My parents paid out of pocket, I'm 25 and still never had a cavity.

Schneed, how do other countries make the healthcare work. I know many people look up the the way France has set up their health care, they have private practices setup, but the state reimburses 85% of the bill.

I just think it's sad that people have to choose between feeding their kids and getting healthy in many situations.

A word of advice to any uninsured that need to have a procedure done. Send the hospital a letter saying you have intentions to pay but currently can't and setup a payment schedule. It won't destroy your credit, and you might get a kind person like I did. A local hospital wiped out my medical bills from a procedure I had done -- mainly because I was proactive and willing to work with them. This is the type of act that won't go unnoticed. The second I have any money I want to donate, that hospital is the first place I'm going.

Re: taxes and health care
 

It's obviously not a real big secret, if you add something that is not currently funded.......it must be paid for. If we are not going to save somewhere else to accomodate the new expense........> taxes.

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[quote=Daseal;537231]Kinda when my dental insurance wouldn't pay for some sort of sealant for my teeth that prevents damage down the road. My parents paid out of pocket, I'm 25 and still never had a cavity.

Schneed, how do other countries make the healthcare work. I know many people look up the the way France has set up their health care, they have private practices setup, but the state reimburses 85% of the bill.

I just think it's sad that people have to choose between feeding their kids and getting healthy in many situations.

A word of advice to any uninsured that need to have a procedure done. Send the hospital a letter saying you have intentions to pay but currently can't and setup a payment schedule. It won't destroy your credit, and you might get a kind person like I did. A local hospital wiped out my medical bills from a procedure I had done -- mainly because I was proactive and willing to work with them. This is the type of act that won't go unnoticed. The second I have any money I want to donate, that hospital is the first place I'm going.[/quote]
Well the number of uninsured is actually not a true number in people who cannot afford coverage. You have young people who feel they do not need coverage. You have peeple who can afford coverage but choose not to carry health insurance. Also in that number are people who are between jobs and choose not to pay for their health insurance but they are uninsured for a short period of time. I've read that the true noumber of people who need insurance but cannot afford the coverage is about half. So now we want to totaly alow goverment to control our health ins. for a small % of people. While 20 million seems high in the actual number of people here in theUS it very small. Why not find a way to get them covered then to allow congress to ruin what we have. I also find it strange that congress has an approval rating of less then 20% and people are so willing to alow them to control something as important as health ins. and about 7 to 8% of our enconomy.

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I saw someone mentioned Japans health insurance but this article does not paint much of a pretty picture.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_in_Japan]Health care in Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

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The problem with trying to compare other countries....anything to our own is the incompatibilty that may exist. We probably do not have much in common with the Japanese. This country is still largely European, and naturally more easily compared to the Euro countries (some anyway)

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i was under the impression that universal health care meant that employers would no longer carry insurance for the work force. the government would supply health care to everyone. i am more in favor of something like this, then the working mass pay for the uninsured

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[quote=dmek25;537268]i was under the impression that universal health care meant that employers would no longer carry insurance for the work force. the government would supply health care to everyone. i am more in favor of something like this, then the working mass pay for the uninsured[/quote]

OK, well how do you imagine the government being able to afford to provide care for everyone?

Re: taxes and health care
 

>>>>Tx's

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taxes, just like everything else

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[quote=Hog1;537257]The problem with trying to compare other countries....anything to our own is the incompatibilty that may exist. We probably do not have much in common with the Japanese. This country is still largely European, and naturally more easily compared to the Euro countries (some anyway)[/quote]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here...healthcare is an economical matter not a cultural matter. Plus good ideas transcend culture.

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[quote=dmek25;537277]taxes, just like everything else[/quote]

OK. Even tax on everyone? A tax amounting to practically nothing on the poor but tons on the rich? Or mostly tax increases to corporations?

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[quote=dmek25;537277]taxes, just like everything else[/quote]
OK name any major goverment program that runs well, cost efficient, or has not not grown way out of wack.

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Is it just me or is any health care system, anywhere based on the assumption that a majority of people will get less than what they pay for in any given time frame so that a minority can get vastly more than they pay for? In other words if every person in great Britain availed themselves of even the minimum level of care, the system would be completely overwhelmed. Isn't that so? And isn't it also true, that having the government run the system does nothing to alter this fundamental flaw?

Re: taxes and health care
 

[quote=Daseal;537231]Kinda when my dental insurance wouldn't pay for some sort of sealant for my teeth that prevents damage down the road. My parents paid out of pocket, I'm 25 and still never had a cavity.

[/quote]


I bet your parents have the rust proof undercoating on their car as well.

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[quote=70Chip;537308]Is it just me or is any health care system, anywhere based on the assumption that a majority of people will get less than what they pay for in any given time frame so that a minority can get vastly more than they pay for? In other words if every person in great Britain availed themselves of even the minimum level of care, the system would be completely overwhelmed. Isn't that so? And isn't it also true, that having the government run the system does nothing to alter this fundamental flaw?[/quote]

It's not a "flaw", it's the fundamental nature of a risk sharing pool. You do the same with homeowners insurance, auto insurance, life insurance, etc.

But stemming from this strange post of yours I am deriving a point: however you choose to share the risk (through government or through private means), it does nothing to change the underlying costs of delivering care.

The nation must face this simple fact: healthcare science & technology has gotten so advanced and expensive that it just flat out costs a buttload. You can bring down some costs, like malpractice claims, and if you simplified reimbursement you'd need far fewer financey people like me supporting providers. But ultimately, if you want drastic cost reduction the only way to get it is through drastic reductions in utilization. How?

1) Stay healthy.
2) If you're a vegetable just pull the plug.
3) If something hurts flat out suck it up.

All way easier said than done.

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[quote=firstdown;537301]OK name any major goverment program that runs well, cost efficient, or has not not grown way out of wack.[/quote]
the post office

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schneed, i have a question. why does any other insurance offer price breaks for people that really dont use it. except for medical?

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[quote=dmek25;537366]the post office[/quote]
Stamps keep going up in price and have you been to a post office in the past 10 years? I order stamps by fax to avoid going to the post office and the mail man delievers them in a couple of days. The few times I do go there is always 3 people doing snail work and a very long line.

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the only reason that the post office even works anymore (of course i would argue it doesn't) is because the load is reduced thanks to email faxing and a boatload of other technologies. Likewise, UPS ships 2 day ground, and I can track it with amazing accuracy, ship something USPS 2-3 day priority and try tracking it. Even if you pay for the ability too. Good luck
The government is meant to --- GOVERN, not efficiently run a business.

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.42 cents for a letter to travel from coast to coast. cant beat that

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[quote=dmek25;537372].42 cents for a letter to travel from coast to coast. cant beat that[/quote]

email works for me-fax does too.

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Some people will be getting visits from Wilfred Brimley:

[yt]6nKlzQo3Wqo[/yt]

[YT]Rg_4z2adv6Q&feature=related[/YT]

Re: taxes and health care
 

[quote=dmek25;537368]schneed, i have a question. why does any other insurance offer price breaks for people that really dont use it. except for medical?[/quote]

It's an incentive for less risky people to become customers. They're not going to use/abuse your service as much as other customers therefore they're the kind of customers that will help your bottom line. They're less likely to default, get into an accident, suffer health issues (life insurance), etc...cash-cow customers as opposed to [URL="http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.npr.org%2Ftemplates%2Fstory%2Fstory.php%3FstoryId%3D101152431&ei=8uW-SeC4KIqmsQOioIWvDA&usg=AFQjCNFY7B6ngKxRczI4Jd1xfwNwdtltWQ&sig2=3zhsey_XFdHyS51ZXd0eiA"]deadbeat customers[/URL].

Re: taxes and health care
 

[quote=dmek25;537372].42 cents for a letter to travel from coast to coast. cant beat that[/quote]
Well OK it would be tough to say weater the Posat Service is good or bad but is that the best you can do with all that goverment does now days?