Ethical question:
 

Hey Guys,

I have a quick question for you. I'm kinda interested where people stand on the fence on this issue. I've asked a few people and the responses have been all over the place. I'm currently studying for a Calculus exam. I feel like I understand all of the material, have done countless examples, etc.

During the exam, we are free to use any calculator we want. I currently run a TI-89 Titanium which is absolutely studly. While I still do all the work by hand so I can get partial credit if I make a mistake, I use the calculator to quickly check my answers and to do other functions that save time (factor, etc)

Since the professor told us we could use calculators but never put any restrictions on it -- is it fair game to type formulas into the calculator's text editor. Being able to use the formulas is the most important, but I'm terrible at memorizing material -- especially math equations. That's why I do well in history, I remember most everything, but if I had to recite exactly what my teacher said -- I'd be in trouble!

Do you think using every aspect of the calculator is cheating or not. Regardless of the opinion on the board, I doubt I'll put the formulas in just to avoid any chance of getting in trouble. But what are the thoughts of the folks here about it?

Re: Moral based question:
 

I don't see it as cheating, I mean think of it this way 4 years from now if you need to use calculus for your job what are you going to do? Chances are you will look in a book or remember that you programed your calculator with the formulas. Also, anyone can have a copy of the formulas but if you don't know how to use them then you still are screwed. And my last point if the professor told the class that you can use any calculator you can bet your bottom dollar other classmates are going to program the formulas into their calculators...

Re: Moral based question:
 

LOL...We faced a similar predicament in our Calculus II during our finals and let me tell you the result for one particular cheater (yes, putting it on your calculator is cheating) was not pretty. The professor was able to somehow tell that he was cheating and came to his seat, asked him for his calculator, checked to see if there were formulas typed into it, took the exam papers from him and told him he's free to go home. The professor then proceeded to tell the entire class that if anyone else has formulas on their calculator they'll suffer the same fate and will be brought up for violating the school's code of conduct.

The moral of the story is don't cheat, it's not worth it.

p.s. We were told we can have a single cheat-sheet and that we may not store formulas into our calculators for the final exam.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Part of college is learning about life. You are supposed to use everything you can to your advantage in life, so I'd say you'd be foolish not to.

Also, I had a friend that took a book and programmed a very nice calculator to plug and play many physics equations for our entire semester before the class even started. A couple of people caught wind after a couple of weeks and complained to the prof, who said, "If he's smart enough to program the material into a calculator, he must have a grasp on what I'm teaching."

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=EternalEnigma21;543514]Part of college is learning about life. You are supposed to use everything you can to your advantage in life, so I'd say you'd be foolish not to.
[/quote]

Wait a second, you say college is in part about learning about life, and then you follow up it by saying he'd be foolish NOT to cheat? So he's learning about life that's it's cool to cheat to get ahead? Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but that's what it sounds like you're saying.

I think the question here is how would the prof see it? He said "no restrictions." But what does that mean? If he knew you had formulas plugged in would he consider it cheating? If the answer is yes, I'd say it's not worth it.

I put a few formulas in my TI-82 back in AP Physics in high school. I didn't get caught, but I felt bad enough about it afterwards that I never did it in college. For what it's worth.

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=GMScud;543515]Wait a second, you say college is in part about learning about life, and then you follow up it by saying he'd be foolish NOT to cheat? [/quote]


No I didn't. Don't impose your opinion on my statement. I said it would be foolish not to use everything he can to his advantage. I don't believe it's cheating. Its certainly not cheating in life.

Re: Moral based question:
 

I also don't consider it cheating, because I've done the work to learn how to use the formulas. I think being forced to memorize them is quite silly. What does forcing a student to memorize a formula really prove?

When it comes down to one thing -- it's if it would be considered cheating. I've heard examples from others. If the professor had said you can't program equations into your calc -- this would be a non-discussion, IMO. That's cheating. This is grey area, which ethics is all about.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Why don't you ask your teacher, then you'll know.

I'm puzzled to why you haven't already unless you already know.

If you're coming on here to get justification for your actions right or wrong just remember, you have to look yourself in the mirror in the morning, not us.

In the long run the easy road only looks that way until you walk down it.

Memorize the formulas. That's what I did and I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I'll bet you can too.

It's not hard. Finding an excuse for knocking up your girlfriend when your already married is hard.

Re: Moral based question:
 

If you are willing to tell you instructor that you are using formulas in your Calc then it's not cheating.
If you have to hide it from your Prof, it's cheating.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Trample: First of all, take a quick moment and get the sand out of your vagina. Now that we've taken care of that, please read my post, especially this part: [b]I doubt I'll put the formulas in just to avoid any chance of getting in trouble. But what are the thoughts of the folks here about it?[/b].

These are the types of decisions that truly show what ethics are, there's an argument to each side. I think if we took this example out of the realm of education and into the realm of business, folks would be telling me to use the tools to my advantage. I'm going to just take the test normally (jotting down a million formulas the second the test starts), but personally wouldn't consider this action cheating. If he said no using memory/applications/editors/etc then it's absolutely cheating.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Honestly though, we all know putting formulas into your calculator isn't sanctioned by most professors. I don't think you can justify it without asking the professor where they stand on the issue. ToE and jamf make good points.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Perhaps not sanctioned, but if something is not known as illegal, is it? That's the real meat of the argument. I'm trying to figure out what would make something 'cheating.' It may not be looked upon favorably, but it also hasn't been addressed at all. I think it's somewhat harsh to punish someone who didn't know and has no way of knowing if something is sanctioned or not.

Just to be clear, I'm not going to put the formulas in, simply because even if there were a 100% chance I was caught and a 5% chance that it meant honor committee I wouldn't take the chance. I'm not going to sacrifice my diploma for a few points. It's not worth it. This just struck me as a good 'real world' type of example.

Re: Moral based question:
 

See this completely depends on the class and what is specified by the professor. In high school during our AP Stat test we were encouraged to put calc programs to help us speed up the calculations, infact our teacher frantically uploaded the program on several peoples calculators before the exam, because they didn't clear the calculator for the AP exam.

In other classes, like my calc ones it was expected you cleared your calculator and if you didn't have work to prove you knew what was up, you would get in trouble. But honestly if you can pick your calculator and it says nothing in the syllabus then honor committee shouldn't be able to do jack shit.

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=Daseal;543527]Perhaps not sanctioned, [B]but if something is not known as illegal, is it? That's the real meat of the argument. I'm trying to figure out what would make something 'cheating.' [/B] It may not be looked upon favorably, but it also hasn't been addressed at all. I think it's somewhat harsh to punish someone who didn't know and has no way of knowing if something is sanctioned or not.

Just to be clear, I'm not going to put the formulas in, simply because even if there were a 100% chance I was caught and a 5% chance that it meant honor committee I wouldn't take the chance. I'm not going to sacrifice my diploma for a few points. It's not worth it. This just struck me as a good 'real world' type of example.[/quote]

In the "real world", if it's against the rules and you break the rules to gain an advantage, it's cheating. Pretty plain and simple. If you don't know or suspect it's against the rules, and you actively seek to be ignorant of the rules then it is still cheating if it's against the rules. By definition, it's not cheating if it's not against the rules. Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse. What's the ethical thing to do? Seek clarification and obey the rules to ensure a fair test for all.

The real question on ethics is this: You ask your teacher and he/she says it's okay, but only for those students who seek prior approval. Later, your friend says to you "Boy, I sure wish I could program formulas into my calculator". Do you say nothing or tell them it's okay (note, he did not ask a question so silence is not a lie). Suppose it's not a friend but someone you don't like. Further, suppose the test is graded on a curve rather than a straight scale.

Re: Moral based question:
 

I'd say it's cheating and you probably already know it.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Did you ask the professor?

Re: Moral based question:
 

dont cheat. if your not sure, ask.

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=saden1;543512]LOL...We faced a similar predicament in our Calculus II during our finals and let me tell you the result for one particular cheater (yes, putting it on your calculator is cheating) was not pretty. The professor was able to somehow tell that he was cheating and came to his seat, asked him for his calculator, checked to see if there were formulas typed into it, took the exam papers from him and told him he's free to go home. The professor then proceeded to tell the entire class that if anyone else has formulas on their calculator they'll suffer the same fate and will be brought up for violating the school's code of conduct.

The moral of the story is don't cheat, it's not worth it.

p.s. [B]We were told we can have a single cheat-sheet and that we may not store formulas into our calculators for the final exam[/B].[/quote]

That's the way my profs always did it too with the cheat sheet. Anything you could fit on one piece of paper was fair game.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Daseal, you have to check your school's honor policy. At Richmond, we had a strict one and anyone found guilty of cheating was automatically expelled for good, with readmittance 100% not an option. If your school is like mine, I wouldn't eff around.

The kids on the honor council sit in classes with you, you never know if one of them is sitting near you.

As to whether this is cheating, it's a gray area. But depending on the honor policy it may not be worth it.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Who is to say that your prof makes everybody delete any saved info before the test starts. If you were not prepared this would really suck.

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=Mattyk72;543541]That's the way my profs always did it too with the cheat sheet. Anything you could fit on one piece of paper was fair game.[/quote]

Same here.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Cheating never pays because in the end if you get caught or not you lose. I hated hated English class when growing up espically spelling. I think I cheated on most spelling test and now today I suffer becasue I am the worst speller I know.

Luckly I took a likening to math. I would say if you cheat you are only screwing yourself. It is true in the "real world" Excel or my HP 10BII ( I know it is crappy but gets the job done plus I use Ecel 99% of the time) does the work of actual claculating the formulas but with out knowing the methodology behind those formauls Excel and my HP would be useless.

Basically don't cheat yourself and just learn the crap.

Re: Moral based question:
 

I would just ask the professor. If he ahsn't said you can't and said you can use your calculator then it isn't really cheating to me. But I'd still make sure based on the "If it's too good to be true" philosophy.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Also, if you have it, check the rules they handed out at the beginning of the semester. When I went, everything was laid out fairly clearly in those. Like most have said, if you are not sure ask first and that way you don't have to worry.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Ask the Prof. Your conscience wil be clear. All will be well, and the teach will respect for it! And if that doesn't work for you, see if you can buy a copy of the exam

Re: Moral based question:
 

Morally, I'd clear it up with the professor. Ask the professor to clarify his response by asking if calculators are to be cleared, and would you be able to program in any formulas you would need to use. That way you are in the clear and it can't be used against you...

However, what I always laugh at (not that Daseal would do this) was those students who programmed stuff into their calculators/cheat sheets and didn't know how to use the information. They just assumed that having the formulas, they would be able to figure out when to use them. I had several friends fail out of statistics and calculus because they didn't study and figured they could "cheat" their way to an A with the stuff programmed into the calculators, and then used the wrong formulas and equations.

Re: Moral based question:
 

For it not to be considered wrong everybody in the class would need to have the formulas stored in their calculator. Anybody that has them stored now has a competitive advantage over someone that doesn't. Most teachers are smart enough to realize this. I'll bet the professor didn't consider or simply forget to include the fact that you can't store the formulas. Maybe, his tests are geared so that the formulas are already provided. Who knows?

Follow your conscience, though. Like gibbsisgod (do we still call him giggity or was that somebody else?) said: the professor may have everyone clear their memory before the test starts.

Re: Moral based question:
 

If you think its cheating then its probably is cheating. Ask and see what the professor say's but that might not be popular with the class as then they would all know its cheating and would loose that arguement if caught.

Re: Moral based question:
 

This discussion had gone the wrong way. People are breathing me a bit too far into it. As I've said multiple times, I'm personally not willing to take any chance of an honor code violation -- simply because the reward isn't worth the risk. Personally, I feel like if the professor doesn't say something isn't allowed, then that means it is allowed. But I was curious how people felt about something like this.

724Skinsfan -- every student is allowed to use a calculator. Thus everyone has access to plugging formulas into their calculators if they so choose. As BDBohnzie said, you can have all the formulas in the world, but practice is what makes them happen. I think I have a good idea of the basic thoughts of the community. Seems somewhere around 60/40 for cheating/not cheating. Pretty close. Interesting.

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=Daseal;543522]Trample: First of all, take a quick moment and get the sand out of your vagina. Now that we've taken care of that, please read my post, especially this part: [b]I doubt I'll put the formulas in just to avoid any chance of getting in trouble. But what are the thoughts of the folks here about it?[/b].

These are the types of decisions that truly show what ethics are, there's an argument to each side. I think if we took this example out of the realm of education and into the realm of business, folks would be telling me to use the tools to my advantage. I'm going to just take the test normally (jotting down a million formulas the second the test starts), but personally wouldn't consider this action cheating. If he said no using memory/applications/editors/etc then it's absolutely cheating.[/quote]

He He He. :laughing-

I'm so very pleased that I could upset you so much. Why don't you stop being a vagina and stop beating around the bush.

Why come on here and ask silly rhetorical questions? Well I could eh. . . . but I doubt eh . . . . Do you think eh . . . .

I doubt I'll do it because I don't want to get caught. That speaks volumes. It's not about right or wrong, you just don't want to take the risk.

The answer is in black and white. It isn't a formula or some pie in the sky college debate. Cheating is what ever the professor and the college says it is. That's all there is to it.

Since when has there been ethics in Business? There is only one rule in the business world and that's to make money. That's why it's called business.

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;543624]The answer is in black and white. It isn't a formula or some pie in the sky college debate. Cheating is what ever the professor and the college says it is. That's all there is to it.

Since when has there been ethics in Business? There is only one rule in the business world and that's to make money. That's why it's called business.[/quote]

Paragraph 1: Ends don't justify means - Regardless of whether or not you could gain an advantage by breaking the rules, to do so is wrong. (I may be reading this wrong as Trample may be merely affirming that "cheating" is a definable term without attaching any ethical implications to the definition).

Paragraph 2: Ends justify means. - Regardless of the rules, the goal is the only thing that matters and anything done in pursuit of that goal is right.

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;543636]Paragraph 1: Ends don't justify means - Regardless of whether or not you could gain an advantage by breaking the rules, to do so is wrong. (I may be reading this wrong as Trample may be merely affirming that "cheating" is a definable term without attaching any ethical implications to the definition).

Paragraph 2: Ends justify means. - Regardless of the rules, the goal is the only thing that matters and anything done in pursuit of that goal is right.[/quote]

What I mean is that the professor and the college set the rules and or guidelines. To go outside of them is cheating. If those rules are unclear then they, not a blog, should be consulted. To come on here and ask seems like self-justification.

I was BSing on the last paragraph. I deal with people who try to cheat my business every day. To put ethics and business in the same phrase is just funny to me, especially these days. There are a lot of ethical business people. I just don't work with many of them.

It's my nature to think of the worst first. I'm sure Dasael is an all right dude.

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;543585]Morally, I'd clear it up with the professor. Ask the professor to clarify his response by asking if calculators are to be cleared, and would you be able to program in any formulas you would need to use. That way you are in the clear and it can't be used against you...

However, [B]what I always laugh at (not that Daseal would do this) was those students who programmed stuff into their calculators/cheat sheets and didn't know how to use the information. They just assumed that having the formulas, they would be able to figure out when to use them[/B]. I had several friends fail out of statistics and calculus because they didn't study and figured they could "cheat" their way to an A with the stuff programmed into the calculators, and then used the wrong formulas and equations.[/quote]

Yeah seriously. Some of my buddies in high school would spend HOURS programming every last word and number from their notebooks into their calculators before Calc and Physics tests, and they would still get very mediocre grades. If they had just spent that time actually studying....

Re: Moral based question:
 

Trample: In that case, this situation isn't cheating. If the professor didn't want this then he has multiple options:

1. No Calculators. 2. Only a 4 function calculator. 3. Explicitly say "No programs, text, etc in the calculators." The rules are set by both the in class syllabus and what the professor says. I keep seeing people say, on a regular basis, 'breaking the rules.' However, there are no rules in place. This is an easy situation for a professor to avoid, if they want to, and all professors fully understand what these calculators are capable of doing.

At this point, it doesn't matter. I know all but one -- and thats getting going straight from me reading 500 times right before the test to where people normally put their names.

Re: Moral based question:
 

Daseal, I guess I missed the answer to this, but did you ever point blank ask the professor? Or the TA's if the class has them?

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=Daseal;543673]Trample: In that case, this situation isn't cheating. If the professor didn't want this then he has multiple options:

1. No Calculators. 2. Only a 4 function calculator. 3. Explicitly say "No programs, text, etc in the calculators." The rules are set by both the in class syllabus and what the professor says. I keep seeing people say, on a regular basis, 'breaking the rules.' However, there are no rules in place. This is an easy situation for a professor to avoid, if they want to, and all professors fully understand what these calculators are capable of doing.

At this point, it doesn't matter. I know all but one -- and thats getting going straight from me reading 500 times right before the test to where people normally put their names.[/quote]

I knew you could do it.

Re: Moral based question:
 

As someone who's already done this (on a TI-84 never-the-less), it's definitely cheating. With that said, it's not particularly helpful cheating. If you have to go to the formulas every few seconds, it's going to be tough to stay in a rhythm that is conducive to successful test taking.

In general, I prefer not to cheat because I treat grades as more of a way to see how apt I am/am not at certain lessons rather than a chance to show everything I know. If I feel I'm going into a situation where clearly, the test is just going to be an unmitigated disaster that's totally unhelpful to me, I'm not above doing something to show that I do understand what I'm supposed to.

From either perspective, I'd say you are making the right decision.

Re: Moral based question:
 

From the same perspective, Holding is cheating in blocking. If you do it and don't get caught, you've saved your team from failure, but that doesn't change the fact that you screwed up and were out of position. If you do it and get caught, you are penalized ten yards, best case scenario.

The spirit of the rule is that you are supposed to not hold a man who has beaten you fairly. But if that was the direct result of the rule, there would never be any holding. It's still a part of the game, even though it's technically cheating the opponent.

Re: Moral based question:
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;543676]Daseal, I guess I missed the answer to this, but did you ever point blank ask the professor? Or the TA's if the class has them?[/quote]

Well, of course not, then there would be no "moral" dilemma.

Only in ignorance do we contemplate morality. <-- I am not sure what that means, but it sure sounds deep.

Re: Moral based question:
 

JoeRedskin, you're a lawyer. If there's a practice that's looked down upon, but a corporation can do it via a loophole. Is it wrong? Answer: absolutely not, it's legal. I'm just trying to find out what makes this situation any different in the minds of most folks.