HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Really the question going into the draft is who are the Redskins most comfortable going into the season with as a starter. Redskins.com did profiles on both players within the last week:

Blades article- [url=http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/In_Third_Season__Blades_Could_Emerge_As_a_Starter_33382.jsp]In Third Season, Blades Could Emerge As a Starter[/url]

Heyer article- [url=http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Heyer_Enters_Offseason_With_a_Higher_Purpose_33251.jsp]Heyer Enters Offseason With a Higher Purpose[/url]

If you were on the coaching staff or in the FO, with the likelihood we aren't going to get starters at RT, SLB and DE (we're likely going to go with the Daniels/Wynn/Buzbee/Jackson rotation) from the draft, who are you more comfortable going into 2009 as a starter? (Mods-can we poll this?)

I'd lean towards Heyer. He's got 12 starts already in his 2 years and has come a long way. This is how you get the most value out of available players, find a player who fits what you do and coach him in the way you want things done. Buges loves him and he seems to have a nice upside. RT is a key position in pass protection and I've been pretty consistent in saying that I'm wary about drafting a LT at #13 and then changing his position immediately. While we need to think long term about replacing Samuels, do we need to address it in this draft when we either have a RT on the roster already or we can draft a T in the 3rd or 4th round and develop him?

Blades worries me because of his lack of size on the outside. I'm afraid he's going to get exposed vs. the pass all season. He's built for the middle, where I think he can be very solid once Fletcher retires but he's a liability outside.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Good question. We can put up a poll...but what about Jansen at RT?

I'm less uncomfortable with Heyer/Jansen at RT than Blades at LB. I like Blades but more in spot duty as a versatile backup. I guess I'm just not sold on him yet as a starter.

All that said, if Oher is available at 13 I'd still take him. Because I don't know how often we'll get an opportunity to get an OT like that.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I think Blades but thats mainly because we'll have that tank lining up in the middle for 12 to 14 games next year. Still I think we should go for a guy like Tryone McKenzie or Marcus Freeman in the third to shore things up.

Of course one of the best scenarios would be to see Heyer and Rhinehart develop into consitent starters that could dominate at the POA. However Rhinehart might be a year or two away if that and Heyer, for some reason can't stay consitent. I wonder though how good he is if he learns to bend his knees properly. In that case maybe he could eventually be a starting RT for us while our hopeful 1st round pick eventually replaces Samuals at LT.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I would go in the opposite direction. The improvements on the D-line will free up the LB's to make more plays. Any LB pass rushers should have better gaps to shoot if Haynesworth in taking on double teams, and LB's in coverage will hopefully have shorter times to work.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=SmootSmack;543625]Good question. We can put up a poll...but what about Jansen at RT?

I'm less uncomfortable with Heyer/Jansen at RT than Blades at LB. I like Blades but more in spot duty as a versatile backup. I guess I'm just not sold on him yet as a starter.

All that said, if Oher is available at 13 I'd still take him. Because I don't know how often we'll get an opportunity to get an OT like that.[/quote]

Well since Heyer won the job out of camp last year, Buges and Cerrato both were effusive in their praise of him this offseason I am operating under the assumption that he is the starter going into camp (unless a T is drafted). I think if it were not cap prohibitive, Jansen would have already been cut.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;543626]I think Blades but thats mainly because we'll have that tank lining up in the middle for 12 to 14 games next year. Still I think we should go for a guy like Tryone McKenzie or Marcus Freeman in the third to shore things up.

Of course one of the best scenarios would be to see Heyer and Rhinehart develop into consitent starters that could dominate at the POA. However Rhinehart might be a year or two away if that and Heyer, for some reason can't stay consitent. I wonder though how good he is if he learns to bend his knees properly. [b]In that case maybe he could eventually be a starting RT for us while our hopeful 1st round pick eventually replaces Samuals at LT.[/b][/quote]
That speaks to my other issue with drafting a T at #13. We're either drafting one to change positions or to be a backup? We've got other needs that have to be addressed.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Im more comfortable with Blades than Heyer. But really, Im not totally uncomfortable with either. It's Jansen that kills me. However, if we stay pat at 13 -- I want an OT (unless Bj Raji falls).

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Good question. Of course, it also has to do with what players are available at #13. I actually think that Heyer and Blades are fairly similar in that they both have shown some potential but both also have liabilities. I'd actually say that I was more comfortable with H.B. Blades if you held me to it. I think his liabilities are mostly due to his lack of size whereas Heyer's are due in part to a lack of ability/athleticism. So what I am saying is that I think Blades is a better football player of the two. Very close though.

To me it would come down to the players available. If it is between Oher and Cushing I'd go with Oher because he is a much better player and I don't like Cushing (more than whether I feel more comfortable with Blades or Heyer). If it is Oher or Everette Brown, now you are making it tough. Bottom line, though, if Oher is there is SHOULD be the pick. It is in a doomsday scenario where all four OT's go in the top 10 that things start getting tricky. Mayock's latest mock top 10 actually had an interesting scenario. He had all four OTs going in the top 9 and Crabtree falling out of the top 10. Imagine a scenario where you had none of the OTs, Everette Brown, Aaron Maybin, and Michael Crabtree. Wonder what Cerratto would do.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=Paintrain;543628]Well since Heyer won the job out of camp last year, Buges and Cerrato both were effusive in their praise of him this offseason I am operating under the assumption that he is the starter going into camp (unless a T is drafted). I think if it were not cap prohibitive, Jansen would have already been cut.[/quote]

[url=http://views.washingtonpost.com/theleague/nflnewsfeed/2009/02/zorn-says-he-and-portis-are-solid.html]NFL News Feed: Zorn Says He and Portis Are 'Solid' - The League at washingtonpost.com[/url]

[quote]In an interview this morning with a couple Washington-area reporters, Zorn said that Jon Jansen will be considered the incumbent starter in the competition with Stephon Heyer for the team's right tackle job.

"Jon ended up as the starter at the end of the season," Zorn said. "That hasn't changed. Stephon Heyer is very competitive and so is Jon. It'll be a battle there. But Jon, right now he's our starting right tackle."[/quote]

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=SC Skins Fan;543633]Good question. Of course, it also has to do with what players are available at #13. I actually think that Heyer and Blades are fairly similar in that they both have shown some potential but both also have liabilities. I'd actually say that I was more comfortable with H.B. Blades if you held me to it. I think his liabilities are mostly due to his lack of size whereas Heyer's are due in part to a lack of ability/athleticism. So what I am saying is that I think Blades is a better football player of the two. Very close though.

To me it would come down to the players available. If it is between Oher and Cushing I'd go with Oher because he is a much better player and I don't like Cushing (more than whether I feel more comfortable with Blades or Heyer). If it is Oher or Everette Brown, now you are making it tough. Bottom line, though, if Oher is there is SHOULD be the pick. It is in a doomsday scenario where all four OT's go in the top 10 that things start getting tricky. Mayock's latest mock top 10 actually had an interesting scenario. He had all four OTs going in the top 9 and Crabtree falling out of the top 10. Imagine a scenario where you had none of the OTs, Everette Brown, Aaron Maybin, and Michael Crabtree. Wonder what Cerratto would do.[/quote]

Yes, it depends on who's available. It's possible that if Everette Brown, Robert Ayers, or Tyson Jackson are available, which one will be, we could jump on the DE. Wynn and Daniels can play inside as well so maybe DE. I'm not comfortable w/ Heyer at RT. Who knows what will happen. I will say that VC normally does a good job drafting 1 round picks for us. Damn, i just complimented VC, thats a first. I've heard on NFL Network, Ayres, Jackson, Everette Brown should be able to step right into a starting lineup at DE. I wouldn't be upset w/ that or OL.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Really neither are worthy of starting, but I would take heyer because he has more starts...blades is awful in coverage but heyer us injury prone

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

RT is definitely more of a need. Jansen wouldn't be on the roster if it weren't for his contract. I hate that shit. Heyer is a mediocre back up at best.
I think both positions will get filled before the season. One in the draft and the other by picking up a final cut from another team. I would not rule out a small trade in preseason wuth a team that is about to cut someone due to numbers and we give them a conditional 6th in 2010. I do not see us staying pat with Heyer and Blades. Although I like Blades as our future MLB. I am not sure he is explosive enough to be an OLB. .

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I'm holding out faint hope that Jansen can rebound and have a good season. That said I still hope we take a RT at #13 if one of the top guys are available.

Blades is probably better suited for a backup on the outside. Maybe we can find someone off the June 1 trash heap. If not we're probably looking at some sort of rotation between him and Fincher.

But again, a lot depends on what happens with the draft.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I'd rather go in with HB Blades starting than Heyer IF we can get one of the big 4 tackles in the draft.

I think HB is a fringe starter, but more of a backup for sure. However, I think our defense as a whole (especially with the addition of Big Al) is strong enough to compensate for HB's weaknesses.

I worry big time about the right side of our O-line with Randy's decline/injuries and Heyer or Jansen at tackle. My ideal scenario has us taking Oher at 13 and picking up a LB later on down the line in the draft.

I think we should have taken a look at Cato June at weakside. It will also be interesting to see how the Chris Wilson at OLB experiment turns out.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I like H.B. but prefer him in the middle as a starter. I think a healthy Heyer would do fine at RT. Just don't put him at LT.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I think Blades is better overall, but I think he's really out of position at OLB w/a tight end in front of him. His position is MLB & I think they really need to start getting him some reps there. I know it's a hard position to rotate since LF is an every down guy that calls the signals & knows the system. But long-term they need to see if Blades can take over at MLB. That would mean getting a decent OLB in the draft or free agency for this year at least.

Unless Heyer & Jansen make dramatic improvements prior to camp, I think (& hope) a decent rookie can come in and win that job.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Blades right now is what we one day hope Heyer can be. Heyer's pass blocking fundamentals are top notch, but he can't yet seem to consistently translate that into production on a play by play basis yet. He's got some running plays down pat and looks to be a mauler-type at tackle, but everything I love about his pass blocking fundamentals goes out the window with run blocking. He screws up his footwork, his hand placement, and his balance while run blocking. He can't even find guys in traffic. He seems to have a low football IQ.

So while I really hope we can see something from Heyer this year that shows huge leaps forward in improvement, I don't know how we can answer Heyer. He seems like he'd be best off as a project left tackle, but unless the draft changes things, he's being looked at right now as an immediate-fit RT, which he cannot be just yet.

Blades at OLB isn't ideal and he'll likely be used improperly by Blache, but I mean he's so far ahead of where Heyer is, that if we're looking it it as a "who plays tomorrow" kind of thing, Blades wins easily. Unfortunately, the answer is never that simple. Playing Blades a bit out of position because he's the best option would not be a legit reason for not drafting a linebacker in the first three rounds. We need to try to address both these needs.

Consequently, the proper answer to this question is some mix of "H.B. Blades", and "neither".

Good thread.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Great discussion everyone. I am hoping one of these two guys steps it up big next season. I think Heyer needs to step up more than Blades, given that he was given the starting spot last year (at the beginning of the season). Otherwise, he will lose that opportunity.

While I am still convinced we need 1st round talent in the o-line, if the top 4 tackles are gone, I wouldn't mind taking one of the LBs. I'm sure they could start right away.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Blades and Fletcher should be a nickel LB tandem as of right now. That's more than enough snaps for Blades in his third year.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I don't get the proposition...who would be better as a starter because we're limited to one 1st day pick at this point? I mean that seems irrelavent because it would be irresponsible IMHO to enter the season w/ Samuels, JJ and Heyer as our only roster tackles. Samuels coming off major injury, JJ injury prone and old, Heyer surprisingly injury prone for his age and still very raw. IMO we need another starter caliber OT from draft or FA (as guys like Levi Jones are cut after draft day). Per the Blades situation...he's not starting. If we don't get a starter in the draft Marcus will be brought back, or maybe a different vet, for a reasonable contract.

...so i guess the answer is neither :)

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=the goat;543674]i don't get the proposition...who would be better as a starter because we're limited to one 1st day pick at this point? I mean that seems irrelavent because it would be irresponsible imho to enter the season w/ samuels, jj and heyer as our only roster tackles. Samuels coming off major injury, jj injury prone and old, heyer surprisingly injury prone for his age and still very raw. Imo we need another starter caliber ot from draft or fa (as guys like levi jones are cut after draft day). Per the blades situation...he's not starting. If we don't get a starter in the draft marcus will be brought back, or maybe a different vet, for a reasonable contract.

...[b]so i guess the answer is neither[/b] :)[/quote]

lol.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I think that the defensive coaches, in general, are more capable of coaching up players than the offensive side of the ball. Historically (recent history) with this team, developing defensive players has been the strength of the coaching staff, while a weakness appears to be developing the offensive players.

With this thinking, I would prefer picking up an offensive player that has already matured enough to be able to play at a high level rather than relying on developing Heyer. That would mean picking up a proven free agent (which the redskins still may do) or pick one of the top 4 OTs in draft. I would think the lesser of the 2 evils is going into the season with a weakness at LB rather than OT because -

1. The defense is the stronger of the 2 units.
2. The defense is better at developing players.
3. The strength of a offensive line is measured by it's weakest link IMO.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Blades hands down. I'm not a big fan of Heyer as a starter but he's a nice back up.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Well, I think that Right Tackle is def. more of a need and I'm more comfortable with Blades at LB than I am with Jansen at this point at RT... I'm more comfortable with Heyer than Jansen I think.... Either way, I want to use #13 on a tackle and I think we'll end up resigning M.Washington to a 1 year deal anyways.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=warriorzpath;543698]I think that the defensive coaches, in general, are more capable of coaching up players than the offensive side of the ball. Historically (recent history) with this team, developing defensive players has been the strength of the coaching staff, while a weakness appears to be developing the offensive players.

With this thinking, I would prefer picking up an offensive player that has already matured enough to be able to play at a high level rather than relying on developing Heyer. That would mean picking up a proven free agent (which the redskins still may do) or pick one of the top 4 OTs in draft. I would think the lesser of the 2 evils is going into the season with a weakness at LB rather than OT because -

1. The defense is the stronger of the 2 units.
2. The defense is better at developing players.
3. The strength of a offensive line is measured by it's weakest link IMO.[/quote]

Nice post...I agree w/ your points basically across the board. Offensively we've got a line coach in Buges who just flat out prefers vets to younger guys...he says so himself. I don't think it's a matter of Buges not wanting to develop a younger player as much as a trust factor. Hixon is a different story. He's never developed a player in the NFL...not one. And you could make the argument the veterans he gets tend to decline under his tutelage - Moss had a phenom season when he was newly signed (sort of picking up where left off) but hasn't been anything great since and Thrash had better seasons w/ the Eagles before working under Hixon. Basically, I don't think any of Hixon's players have ever improved...that's actually hard to fathom IMO but I believe it's really true.

...all that said any offensive rookie may carry a higher "risk" outside of QB and RB, which aren't really needs for us. Maybe it's wise to draft defense and spend our offensive dollars in FA. Levi Jones over Micheal Oher...? Draft Rey or Matthew...?

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I would be more comfortable with Blades at MLB but not so much on the outside. He's just too damn small to play full time there. That said Id go with Heyer over Blades and Jansen.
At least it's a spot he has started before AND has the needed size for the position. However Id still take Oher, Smith, then Rey in that order at #13. No DE merits that spot other than Orakpo. He will be long gone and I think it is easier to fill a LB spot in the 3rd round and RT in the 1st as opposed to the other way around.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

Everyone is making good points. I would just like my SAM backer, who's going to be covering TE's and hopefully putting some pressure on the QB at times, to not be 5'10 and 245. Blades is a tackling machine and his size would not be much of a drawback in the middle (about the same size as Fletch) but, I don't see him possessing the coverage or pass rushing skills needed at the SAM position. Going by the original post, we're not getting another DE, and I don't see a whole lot of pressure on the QB coming from that side. Not as much as I'd like anyway. It would be hard to put much criticism of the RT play last year on Heyer since he really didn't play there that much. Remember that he beat out Jansen last year and only lost the starting job because of injury. If he beats out Jansen this year, I wouldn't be that uncomfortable with him starting. A lot of the time when he did play, he played out of position. If the rest of the line doesn't pick up it's level of play, I'm not sure if it matters who we put there. This has nothing to do with who, or what, I want out of the draft.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

heyer can hold 5 long necks in his hand, and never touch the necks. dudeman is for real. And after 20 or so, beat some ass.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

It's easy to be more comfortable with Heyer since he has already started. I would still take an OT though if one of the top ones is available. You usually need a pretty high pick to get an OT that can project to LT and some of the guys in this draft have that ability. I would rather roll the dice with Blades and have that as a need next year if Blades doesn't pan out. We also could get a LB in round 3 that could compete but we would never get a starting RT in round 3.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I'm more OK with Blades starting on the outside to get through the season. Did he play there at all last year? Campbell needs a brickwall for an OLine to be a successful QB, and if he isn't successful this year, chances are we are starting over next season with someone else, and quite possibly another coach too. Build the offense.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=celts32;543755]It's easy to be more comfortable with Heyer since he has already started. I would still take an OT though if one of the top ones is available. You usually need a pretty high pick to get an OT that can project to LT and some of the guys in this draft have that ability. I would rather roll the dice with Blades and have that as a need next year if Blades doesn't pan out. We also could get a LB in round 3 that could compete but we would never get a starting RT in round 3.[/quote]

I support that, not only Heyer has started but he also has shown the abilities to be good T; he just needs to take it up to next level.. But OT is rich in draft this year, we need to take advantage of it and grab a potentional future LT to take over when Samuels move over to RT, which probably would be in 2 years.. Beside, we managed to stay in top 5 defense with all the injuries.. I'm pretty sure, especially with additional of Haynesworth, we will do fine with Blades/Fincher or Wilson rotating from time to time..

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=Paintrain;543623]
If you were on the coaching staff or in the FO, with the likelihood we aren't going to get starters at RT, SLB and DE (we're likely going to go with the Daniels/Wynn/Buzbee/Jackson rotation) from the draft, who are you more comfortable going into 2009 as a starter? (Mods-can we poll this?)
[/quote]

Does starting one mean that the other guy gets replaced by a draft pick?
Or does it mean that their replacement come from the current roster?

B/c if Blades doesn't start now then who would Fincher?
With this current Roster, Blades would have to start b/c he doesn't appear to have a capable back-up on the roster.

But, if Heyer didn't start then Jansen could at least has experience and would be serviceable for awhile.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I feel way more comfortable with Heyor but look forward to Blades proving me wrong this offseason. We should go after a versatile outside LB who can also play DE just in case Blades or Fincher break through. We do not have a DE that will "break through" since Carter's end is secure and Daniels/Wynn in decent. Blades/Fincher does not impress, we have a starter OLB. Wynn/Daniels gets injured/does not impress/dies of natural causes due to old age, we have a starter there. Verdict: Orakapo

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

I know Jansen struggled last year, but i wouldn't be so quick to say he is done. Last season he was coming off a pretty severe injury, in which it takes some time to get back to your quickness and that seems to be what was killing him last year. He was still a pretty damn good run blocker, but just wore down towards the end of the year, just as did everyone else. I am going on the record as saying Jansen will be better this year than last. He has had an entire off season to get back into good shape not having to go through any procedures with the knife, and I really think he can still be our starting RT. I think that he will also have all the motivation with everyone saying he is done. This guy has been a rock at RT for a number of years and when healthy is pretty damn good. And he's BUGES guy, so dont quit on him yet.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=#56fanatic;543851]I know Jansen struggled last year, but i wouldn't be so quick to say he is done. Last season he was coming off a pretty severe injury, in which it takes some time to get back to your quickness and that seems to be what was killing him last year. He was still a pretty damn good run blocker, but just wore down towards the end of the year, just as did everyone else. I am going on the record as saying Jansen will be better this year than last. He has had an entire off season to get back into good shape not having to go through any procedures with the knife, and I really think he can still be our starting RT. I think that he will also have all the motivation with everyone saying he is done. This guy has been a rock at RT for a number of years and when healthy is pretty damn good. And he's BUGES guy, so dont quit on him yet.[/quote]

Yeah I'm holding out some hope for a rebound year by JJ too. Sounds like he's taken off some weight and is in good shape, and determined to claim the RT spot. If there's one thing we can't question it's the guy's heart. He's gonna go down swinging no matter what.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

The thing that sticks out in my mind about Jansen and also about Heyer - is seeing them get embarrassed a few times last year in their individual matchups. That left a lasting impression with me. I hope that Jansen comes back and plays well again and also that Heyer will drastically improve, but I can't trust that they will until I see it.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;543853]Yeah I'm holding out some hope for a rebound year by JJ too. Sounds like he's taken off some weight and is in good shape, and determined to claim the RT spot. If there's one thing we can't question it's the guy's heart. He's gonna go down swinging no matter what.[/quote]

It would be nice if he bounces back, but I've thought Jansen was done since '06. I've seen him get pushed back into the QB way too many times to want to see him out there again.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

The only reason I'm holding out some hope for Jansen is the fact he didn't need some sort of major surgery this offseason and he should be stronger and healthier this year than he's been in quite some time.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;543882]The only reason I'm holding out some hope for Jansen is the fact he didn't need some sort of major surgery this offseason and he should be stronger and healthier this year than he's been in quite some time.[/quote]

I'm rooting for Jansen always, he's our longest tenured player & always a class guy that plays w/pain. Maybe he's got a comeback in him & he really is healing/adjusting to the injuries of the past few years.

Either way though, this team needs 2 young tackles to add to the roster.

Re: HB Blades or Stephon Heyer?
 

We all love Jansen but honestly I do not want to see him win the RT job. What will happen is that he will look great in September and in to October and then by November he will wear down and either get hurt or his play will deteriorate. I would rather have him as a healthy reserve and have him step in later in the year if Heyer is not getting it done.