Second look at Ramsey
 

I went back last night and watched the game from where Ramsey came in to get a second look, and while checking out another board I came across this [url="http://extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73809"]post[/url] which was exactly what I was going to post, so rather than waste my time here it is:

[quote]Watched the game again, and recorded all the passing plays he was in on, here goes:

1st play: Ramsey is sacked, it was a playaction play that the Giants didnt buy for a second, not his fault at all, he never stood a chance, he did a good job just holding onto it.

2nd play: WR Screen to Coles complete for 9 yards.

3rd: Rollout to left, throws deep ball to Gardner down the left sideline, good throw to recognize the tight coverage and purposely underthrow it, Gardner made a nice adjustment and came back to get it but his foot was just out of bounds, all and all a good idea. Result: incompletion

4th: BIG 3rd and 12 play. 7 step drop, hit his 7th step, planted, hopped and fired, nice work, that shows how much he's improved, he got the ball out on time. Result- hit Portis in the numbers for would-be 15 yard gain and first down, however it was dropped-incompletion.

5th: Rollout to the right, set up quickly and fired, another sign that he is getting this getting rid of the ball thing down. Result- 51 yard pass to Gardner (nice catch). Good read to see the single coverage and that Gardner had a step on him.

6th: 5 step drop, hit 5th step, popped up, set and fired, once again beautiful footwork and decisiveness. Result - 5 yard pass to Coles.

7th: Nice quick read and good anticipation on this one to see who was going to become open, got rid of it quickly and fired a strike to Gardner. Result- hit Gardner in both hands, dropped TD. Take note folks, on Ramsey's first real drive in the game (first one Portis fumbled) he would have led us to a TD if Gardner wasnt so shaky.

8th: Went to throw to corner of endzone where Coles was open, good read, but he had to double clutch due to pressure and he threw it too late and not far enough into the corner he should have just tried to run for it or something. Result- INT

9th: WR screen to Coles for 2 yards

10th: Nice checkdown to Portis, however it didnt count due to a Rod Gardner not paying attention penalty. I think Gardner has ADD, they should check that out and get him some aderol.

11th: Ramsey blitzed, 7 step drop, hit 7th step, then stepped up and pocket, showing good awareness took off up the field, very smart play. Result- 18 yard gain + facemask penalty.

12th: Ramsey blitzed again, 5 step drop, Ramsey pops and fires from his 5th step. Result - Strike to Coles, good job getting rid of it, also good blitz pickup by line/backs - 15 yards

13th: Wow, 15 yard TD pass to Portis. Not many people can make this throw, it was ridiculous. Seriously what a play by Ramsey and what a catch by Portis. Whoa.

14th: Rollout left, deep ball down left sideline to Gardner, close but just a bit too far, good read though he had Gardner on a safety. - Pass interference called.

15th: Another 7 step drop, Ramsey once again does a great job of hitting that last step and firing it, really looks good to me. But the ball is batted at the line.

16th: HUGE 3rd and 9 play: Rollout right, sets and fires strike to tightly covered Gardner (Gardner catches!!!). His arm strength really came in handy there, Brunell could not have fit that in.

17th: INT- Coles faked the out and went to cut back in however Peterson was sneaky and held Coles's arm so he couldnt get back in. So it went right to the Giant. Note this INT was not Ramsey's fault.

18th: Fumbled snap- Friedman's fault.

19th: 7 step drop, once again right on time from Ramsey- good pass and catch to Coles, nice block from Portis- gain of about 20

20th: Ramsey flushed out right- worst pass i've ever seen him throw, I dont know what he was doing but he even said in an interview that it was just stupid, this is uncharacteristic of him if you ask me, he is usually pretty good at not making stupid turnovers if you ask me. Goes right to Giants guy-INT should have just thrown it away or Portis was open right in front of him, just a bad play, everyone has them.

21st: Sack- he stepped up in the pocket and did everything he could, just got swarmed around and nobody appeared to be open but I couldnt tell b/c the TV view.

22nd: Nice pass while under great pressure, nice to see him use some touch b/c he usually just fires it, its good to see that he was working on his touch passes- however it was dropped by Coles, would have been a first down and then some.

23rd: Blitz, nice job avoiding pressure and good pass to Coles for 12 yards.

24th: 4th and 4- nothing really was open, was forced to fire one to Portis- incomplete

25th: he was sacked but just throw this out b/c it was a hail mary.[/quote]
Upon watching him again and comparing notes with this person's post, when you break down what he did well and what he didn't do well, he really played better than the numbers show. Despite what some people might think, I think he really has improved his footwork and getting the ball out more quickly and decisively. I certainly don't see a QB we should be looking to give up on. Yeah he made some bad plays, but they overshadowed some of the really positive things he did.

Perhaps Brunell's injury is a blessing in disguise. We all talk about how Ramsey needs experience and playing time to learn and grow, well, here's his opportunity. Let's hope he runs with it and never looks back.

I really think the potential is there and [u]he is improving[/u], maybe not as quickly as some of you would like from a [i]3rd year QB with limited experience[/i] but that's a whole other topic. ;)

Matty, you've said all along and it's obvious. Ramsey is a work in progress, and he is showing signs of improvement. Yeah, 3 int's....there's no excuse for that, but let's think about the circumstances. Ramsey was simply trying to win the game and he obviously was pressing too hard. Lavar even said himself yesterday on the John Thompson radio show....."You can say what you want about Patrick, but the point is, is that all he was trying to do was win the game and he was just pressing too much" more Lavar...."all the mistakes Patrick made are FIXABLE!"


I'm done arguing with all the PR haters. I believe he can get it done, and nothing will change that. If the coaches and players have his back, then that must tell you something.

Dude, if Gardiner doesn't play like a moron, and blow the TD, I think Ramsey doesn't press and throw that last INT.

Dude, Ramsey lost this game. He threw the first INT on the 7 yard. The pass was late, too short and no zip at all. The second INT I blame him for also. Coles wasn't within 10 ft. of the ball and Peterson had locked him up before Ramsey threw the ball. Ramsey was focused on just completing the ball to Coles and not throwing the ball away. The 3rd INT was the most dumb INT I've seen from Ramsey. He claimed there was pressure on him as he threw it. But if you review it, he rolled out to his right and tried to under throw the ball and have Gardner come back for it with double coverage? One great play, one stupid play. He should be moving along far better than this dude. What was training camp for?

Great play by play Matty, but Ramsey decision making has affected his ability to execute under pressure. I can throw a ball all day without pressure on me, but he should be used to this by now. If I had been sacked as many times as he had, I would have to look for an alternative to protecting my head. He just doesn't get it.

These days there are not many works in progress in the NFL. Tom Brady was pushed into the starting role and delivered a super bowl win. I'm trying to think of project QBs that have done anything recently in the NFL and I can't. Bottom line is today's NFL is not about building, its about winning now and if a QB isnt a quick study he will be looking for another line of work. Hopefully PR can get it going by week 8.

[QUOTE=Drift Reality]Dude, if Gardiner doesn't play like a moron, and blow the TD, I think Ramsey doesn't press and throw that last INT.[/QUOTE]
If Gardner makes the TD catch, he might not make [u]any[/u] of the INT's.

Gardner's TD puts the team up 21-20. Assuming the D holds (a fair assumption, since they have had all of three points scored against them this year that weren't the result of a turnover), Patrick has no need to force the ball downfield with ill-advised throws. We would be in three-TE sets, getting four yards every 40 seconds when we had the ball.

I'm certainly not saying Ramsey is without sin here. Every member of the offensive unit has questions to answer. That drop was an absolute back-breaker though.

[QUOTE=irish]These days there are not many works in progress in the NFL. Tom Brady was pushed into the starting role and delivered a super bowl win. I'm trying to think of project QBs that have done anything recently in the NFL and I can't. Bottom line is today's NFL is not about building, its about winning now and if a QB isnt a quick study he will be looking for another line of work. Hopefully PR can get it going by week 8.[/QUOTE]


Good point. Tim Couch is no longer in the NFL. Cade McNown is longer in the NFL. Sometimes the pressure to produce immediately causes young QB's to digress or remain stagnant. Joey Harrington is leading the Lions. Carr is leading the Texans and Brady is commandeering his Patriots to a 18-0 winning streak and Ramsey is a work in progress. Is this what we want to settle for with all of the money we have spent?

We'll see what Ramsey can do on Monday. He is a work in progress because he is learning a completely different system that the one he has been in the past two years. Like Matty pointed out, he is improving on many of his "bad habits" he had or had developed last season. Brunell was brought in specifically to tutor him, no matter which one of them is starting....and be assured that Mark will be in his ear on the sidelines giving him tips and advice.
He'll get a full week of work with Gibbs and the first team offense this week, and I'm curious to see how he does in a full game...

But I think this is becuase of salary cap/free agent issues, not becuase of talent or anything. People just can't afford to develop peospects, or so it seems. But Chad Pennington was a backup for quite a while with the Jets, for example. ANd it's not like Peyton Manning led the colts to lots of victories early on. I think also that GMs/coaches give up to quickly on guys. It's just win NOW, baby, or see ya. Anyway, the reason Brunnell is here is to give Gibbs and Co. time to develop PR. They are old school in that sense, though they took a lot of shi* for spending that money.

Nice points JW

How about Brad Johnson and Trent Green? Those guys spent years riding the pine

it's kinda funny how we try to rationalize some things when everything gets chaotic. plain and simple we all know ramsey can do some things other qbs on our staff can't do but then he also does some things no qbs should ever do.

Thanks for breaking that down for us (or at least copying it for us). That was actually quite interesting.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Dude, Ramsey lost this game. He threw the first INT on the 7 yard. The pass was late, too short and no zip at all. The second INT I blame him for also. Coles wasn't within 10 ft. of the ball and Peterson had locked him up before Ramsey threw the ball. Ramsey was focused on just completing the ball to Coles and not throwing the ball away. The 3rd INT was the most dumb INT I've seen from Ramsey. He claimed there was pressure on him as he threw it. But if you review it, he rolled out to his right and tried to under throw the ball and have Gardner come back for it with double coverage? One great play, one stupid play. He should be moving along far better than this dude. What was training camp for?[/QUOTE]

First of all, you can't blame Ramsey for losing the game.. Was he in when Portis fumbled and it was taken in for a TD? Was he in when Brunell threw his INT? Was he at fault for Portis's other fumble? He made 2 bad throws and Coles ran the wrong route on the other one. To blame him for losing the game is silly.. I agree, he should be farther along than he is, let's see how he does while Brunell is out and coming in with a game plan for him and 0-0 on the scoreboard rather than coming in down 20-7 in the 2nd half.

[QUOTE=Paintrain]I agree, he should be farther along than he is, let's see how he does while Brunell is out and coming in with a game plan for him and 0-0 on the scoreboard rather than coming in down 20-7 in the 2nd half.[/QUOTE]

If we want to get technical, the score when Ramsey was in the game was Redskins 7 , Giants 0.

[quote]Good point. Tim Couch is no longer in the NFL. Cade McNown is longer in the NFL. Sometimes the pressure to produce immediately causes young QB's to digress or remain stagnant. Joey Harrington is leading the Lions. Carr is leading the Texans and Brady is commandeering his Patriots to a 18-0 winning streak and Ramsey is a work in progress. Is this what we want to settle for with all of the money we have spent?[/quote]

hmm.. trent green... matt hasselbeck... they are lots of others, and all those guys you listed spent more than 1 offseason in their system before doing anything i believe.

[quote]Dude, Ramsey lost this game. He threw the first INT on the 7 yard. The pass was late, too short and no zip at all. The second INT I blame him for also. Coles wasn't within 10 ft. of the ball[/quote]

umm... the score was 20-7 when he came in and 20-14 at the end... he didn't lose it, he just didn't win it... and ramsey threw to where coles should have been... thats how routes in the nfl work. You said he was held up before ramsey threw it, but unless you were there, i see no way from the tv angles you could have seen what coles was or wasn't doing when ramsey let go...

Saying Ramsey lost the game is BS w/o Ramsey throwing the Skins wouldn't have been in it! Wack ass Brunell's arm got exposed in week 1. HE'S TOO OLD. Ramsey will grow out of pressing so much...there's no cure for the game passing you by. Brunell can't hack it, he plays scared. I can't remember if it was a play where Brunell fumbled (I think so) but he rolled out after a blitzer was PICKED UP by Clinton Portis, Brunell rolled right into a sack and I believe a turnover. Last week Brunell had at least 3 possessions end because he checked down and didn't go for the first down on third and long. Maybe taking a shot is better than throwing a 7 yard curl to Coles with 2 defenders on top of him as soon as he catches on a 3rd and 12 play.

In addition to his arm, he makes bad decisions. He made another hand off this week that he shouldn't have made. This one didn't result in a fumble, but when he's falling down and trying to hand the ball to Portis, he's essentially stripping him as soon as the ball gets there. Brunell is a mistake. They should let Ramsey learn.

Ramsey did make some horrible decisions against the Giants. However, had he not driven them for one score the Skins wouldn't have been in this game. Brunell wouldn't have done it. It's not in him anymore. I don't care how many picks he threw, if Ramsey plays he'll learn not to do it. They should go with Ramsey and leave him alone.

Everyone on this board calls Ramsey a "work in progress." That's fine. I'd like to point out that if the Redskins had any patience whatsoever he would be a great QB right now. Harrington and Carr are both playing well, they got to start from day 1. Ramsey has seen spot starting and a starting job that got him planted everytime they called a pass play. As far as his inability to call audibles in that system; take a look at the tape again Matty, everytime Brunell audibled the play materialized into nothing. Ramsey will be a good QB, he has better physical skills than any of the other 2 QB's he was drafted with, they just need to start him and not make him look over his shoulder. He's the better QB.

[QUOTE=SUNRA]Dude, Ramsey lost this game. He threw the first INT on the 7 yard. The pass was late, too short and no zip at all. The second INT I blame him for also. Coles wasn't within 10 ft. of the ball and Peterson had locked him up before Ramsey threw the ball. Ramsey was focused on just completing the ball to Coles and not throwing the ball away. The 3rd INT was the most dumb INT I've seen from Ramsey. He claimed there was pressure on him as he threw it. But if you review it, he rolled out to his right and tried to under throw the ball and have Gardner come back for it with double coverage? One great play, one stupid play. He should be moving along far better than this dude. What was training camp for?[/QUOTE]

The second interception was defensive holding....its called a timing route the CB saw it coming and had no other choice. Not even close to Ramseys fault...had coles gotten free and was able to finish his route you would be touting it as a well timed completion....

Patrick Ramsey did NOT lose the game on Sunday. Let's not get carried away here. That loss was a total team effort.

Patrick Ramsey did NOT look good in the game on Sunday. If you want to say that he had great footwork in the pocket and a timed release of the ball and is ready for his nomination to Canton Ohio, you are free to do so. You are also getting carried away in the other direction.

Gardner's drops were horrendous and did not help the Skins and made Ramsey's efforts less than wonderful. By the same token, Gardner's catch on Ramsey's "50 yard heave" was a circus catch. The ball was overthrown and Cardner put the Skins in a position to score with his extraordinary effort. It was not nearly enough.

What Ramsey lacks is consistency - same for Gardner. Is that lack of experience or lack of concentration or what? I don't read minds; I don't know. Here is what I do know. In September 2004, Patrick Ramsey is not capable of being the starting QB for an NFL football team that expects to go deep into the playoffs. Maybe a lightbulb will go off in his head and he'll "get it" all of a sudden and lead this team somewhere positive this year. But until I see on field evidence of that "got it" position, I'm not going to feel very confident if he as to start the next few games.

Kyle Boller is a second year QB with limited experience. He has played about as well as Ramsey has. Is anyone here ready to anoint Boller as a great QB yet? I didn't think so.

Marc Bulger has about the same experience base as Ramsey. Which one is better right now? Neither is star quality, but if you think Ramsey is better, you are deluding yourself.

Rex Grossman has significantly LESS experience than Ramsey. Who is the better starting QB FOR NEXT SUNDAY ?

How about AJ Feeley? I think I prefer Ramsey, but not by much?

Do not even put Ramsey in the same paragraph with Harrington or Carr as of September 2004. It makes no sense to do that.

And if you want to revel in the fact that Couch and McNown are out of the NFL (as is Akili Smith from that same draft), please do not forget to recall that Donovan McNabb and Duante Culpepper are still around and seem to have "gotten it" a whole lot sooner than Ramsey and those other guys. Or is someone here about to say that he'd rather have Ramsey over McNabb and/or Culpepper?

The play-by-play was interesting to read, but you could see a definite bias throughout it. One example: on one late throw, he said Ramsey double-clutched "due to pressure". Well I did not see it that way, and neither did Aikman who commented about his indecisiveness and the double-clutch. There are more like this, but no use dragging out details.

Bottom line is, we ALL hope Ramsey miraculously turns it around and becomes a stud - our QB of the future. The only difference is that some of use feel it has reached the point where it is an extremely remote possibility, and others of you feel he is just about there now.

As far as losing the game, the offense did it for sure. Ramsey played a big part, Gardner played a BIGGER part, and Portis/Brunell helped some. Now we gotta get ready to kick some cowboy ASS!!!!!!

Culppepper has been though his growing pains but has been given time, McNabbs sucess is not based on his QB skills but the sucess of the team in general in my oppinion. He hasn't had alot of offensive tools but Feely took the keys to the Eagles and they hardly missed a beat a few years ago.

Look at the situation he was put into he starts his glittering NFL career as possible trade bait with the Bears then being mentored by Shane mathews and Dany W and inducted into the NFL under the toutelage of Steve Spurrier who changed QBs like his socks. The point of this... yes he should be further on his career but then his career could have been better thus far...

[QUOTE=bedlamVR] McNabbs sucess is not based on his QB skills but the sucess of the team in general in my oppinion. [/QUOTE]

That sounds like the Rush Limbaugh opinion (NOT referring to the racial aspect of it). The fact is, that the TEAM got better when McNABB arrived, not the reverse. His excellent presence in the pocket and running skills turned a less than average offense around.

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]If we want to get technical, the score when Ramsey was in the game was Redskins 7 , Giants 0.[/QUOTE]
Ramsey entered the game on the 1st drive of the 2nd half. The halftime score was 20-7 Giants.

No I'm saying, If it were to be 0-0 when Ramsey entered the game... It was Redskins 7 Giants 0

i used to think mcnabb was just another mediocre QB, but i've changed my opinion on that a bit ;)

TO helps... he outplayed culpepper last night easily... but the eagles D is quite a bit better than the vikings D too...

McNabb wouldn't be at the top of my list, but he's definately be in the top 8 or so...

No doubting the team got better when McNabb got there but he is a peice not the key, the team does not live through his physical talents. I cannot rember who he took over from but I seem to remember Pete ws thier starter for a while. McNabb is good don't get me wrong but he has a team, coaching staff and fan base that belive in him and he went some though some very rocky periods and you only have to look at his career compleation rate to wonder where he lies in notable mentions at the Qb position, but theEagles stook with him even after the booing he got from Rasicit bigoted fans they have up there in the City of brotherly love.

People argue the NFL is win now but without patience and giving players time to grow you never will win not now not tomorrow... rome was not built in a day

bedlamVR:

Two simple questions for you.

1. You are the Redskins GM. The Eagles call you and offer to trade Donovan McNabb for Patrick Ramsey even up. Do you tell them to pound sand up their butt or do you go to Joe Gibbs to see what he thinks about that?

2. Same scenario. The Vikes call and want to do the deal for Duante Culpepper even up. What do you do?

Here's a tougher one:

The Jaguars call and offer Leftwich for Ramsey even-up. Joe Gibbs asks your opinion; what do you tell him?

[QUOTE=bedlamVR]No doubting the team got better when McNabb got there but he is a peice not the key, the team does not live through his physical talents. I cannot rember who he took over from but I seem to remember Pete ws thier starter for a while. [/QUOTE]

You are way off on this one. As I said, the team got better when he arrived, and it appeared it was because of him. They were 3-13 in 1998 without him. He played less than half the time (mostly subbing) in 1999, and they were 5-11.

He started full time in 2000. They were 11-5 and made the playoffs - amazing turnaround. Then the next 3 years they went to the NFC championship. And all through that time, as Madden says, they have not had a #1 quality receiver. Their defense was great, and their offense went from horrible to good with McNabb as the catalyst. It should get VERY good now that they have a real #1 receiver.

Hmmm. Some guys are willing to give Ramsey a chance, but no one is letting Gardner off the hook. Overall, it wasn't too bad a game. The score supported that.

[QUOTE=That Guy]umm... the score was 20-7 when he came in and 20-14 at the end... he didn't lose it, he just didn't win it... and ramsey threw to where coles should have been... thats how routes in the nfl work. You said he was held up before ramsey threw it, but unless you were there, i see no way from the tv angles you could have seen what coles was or wasn't doing when ramsey let go...[/QUOTE]

I was there. Sorry the TV angles didn't get that part.

My problem with Gardner was not this game (not even close). It is his pattern ever since he was drafted, of choking - dropping easy passes in critical situations - 3rd down passes that would make a 1st, and TD's when we are behind. His occasional circus catch does not offset this. Unfortunately, like Norv Turner's occasional wins, it just enables him to keep his job.

hogskin, just cause they started winning with him doesn't mean he's awesome, it could have been that the last guy was just REALLY bad... though i'd agree that he's a very important (and good) part of the offense... him and T.O. are the #1 and #2, and they seem to be able to make things go just fine...

anyone who wouldn't take daunte or mcnabb over ramsey is silly... though i wish daunte didn't fumble so damn much :(

for leftwich, i don't know, i've never been on BL's bandwagon, and i've watched him a couple times, but not enough to really know if he's worth much...

i would take ramsey over flutie, testes, boller, feely, warner, grossman, dorsey, mccown, rattay, and maybe leftwich or bledsoe, and i wouldn't trade him for oldies like gannon or maddox (not that old i know)... i know that gives him benefit of the doubt...

as far as 2nd stringers, gus, roth., or collins would be decent... manning is in a different class (money/talent wise), and for a future elite QB is still raw (his bro came in much more polished)...

that about as extensive as i can be without really refering to stat charts, tape and the like...

[QUOTE=Paintrain]First of all, you can't blame Ramsey for losing the game.. Was he in when Portis fumbled and it was taken in for a TD? Was he in when Brunell threw his INT? Was he at fault for Portis's other fumble? He made 2 bad throws and Coles ran the wrong route on the other one. To blame him for losing the game is silly.. I agree, he should be farther along than he is, let's see how he does while Brunell is out and coming in with a game plan for him and 0-0 on the scoreboard rather than coming in down 20-7 in the 2nd half.[/QUOTE

I can blame Ramsey for losing a game just as much as I can praise him for winning a game. The problem you have is facing the reality that a work in progress in really a work of digress. Show me won QB who hasn't had to learn a new system every year. Every year new plays are introduced to the QB. If the QB can not execute those plays does he continue to start? Hell no. He's benched like Ramsey was benched. Ramsey had all training camp to get at least the mechanics of a QB down and he still comes out holding on to the ball. Lastly, against Dallas we know what they are going to bring. They will step it up a notch or two. If Ramsey isn't ready in practice he will get buried in this game. And then none of you will have to worry about defending his mistakes.

and if we win you'll eat the crow?>

[QUOTE=That Guy]and if we win you'll eat the crow?>[/QUOTE]

I was born in Washington, D.C. at D.C.General Hospital. The hospital is right across the street from RFK Stadium. I'll eat the crow, just like I unfortunately had to shake the hand of Giants fans as I left the stadium.

Sunra, your post brought back some great memories. In the 60's I was doing software support for IBM, and DC General was one of my many accounts. Spent a lot of time there. AND spent a LOT of time at REDSKIN games in the 50's through 80's. Sure do miss going out to the stadium. Some great Sundays. And like you said earlier, you sure see a lot from a good seat that the cameras miss.

I think one of the key things here in Mattys origional post is that it wasn't down to Ramsey alone recivers dropped balls/didn't finish routes etc.

When he came into the game at 20-7 his only option was to try and win the game had he done nothing not thrown and interception and not turn the ball over yet the scoreline stayed the same would that have been better? At least with him in the game we had a chance .

As for the comment about every QB has to learn a new system every year you will find the sucessful teams are the ones whe the OC and offensive philosophy stay the same. Sure the Vikes offence for example will have new wrinkles in it every year, but with the same coach and philosophy these wrinkles will be minor changes building on what was working last year. Players have confidence in a winning system and execute it far better. When you undergo such dramatic change in personel as the Skins did this year then it is like starting afresh. Many people point at the changes the Giants underwent this year also yet they really didn't win this game as opposed the the Skins loosing it.

Sure players have training camp to get the fundementals of any new system down but until you get into the season and against live fire it is hard for any players to translate it into game play .

Ramsey has a long way to go. Under Gibbs he could be a very good QB. Burnell if younger would also be what we need . But he is not. His arm is weak and is moving down not up. What we need from him is to teach Ramsey! I remember another Redskin QB that looked so bad the fans wanted to run him out of town. He worked out fine Joe T!!!! So I hope Ramsey makes it because if not Burnell will not make it all the way through a season and we will need to look for someone else next year!

Maybe I'm just a hopeful Patrick Ramsey Apologist ass, but- When Ramsey came in the game for an already injured Brunell (ok, who had week two in the pool?) I felt like he gave our offense a chance to win, (something I haven't gotten from Brunell.) I think that when Brunell was brought in, it was as a veteran QB who would not LOSE games for us. No one expected him to come in here and light it up. But, if not for stellar play from our defense in week one, you have to say Brunell gave it his best shot at losing us that game by fumbling near our endzone. I just don't see him being able to put the team on his back and win any for us. His whole value is based upon experience and decision making and I don't believe that with what we've seen from both QB's so far that you can give a decided advantage to either in the decision making phase of the game. As for PR, 3 picks when you're forcing the ball to try and win as the clock ticks down? Give me a break, yeah it's not great, but what do you expect, that's the time of the game when you have to gamble to win. I was just as dumbstruck by that last INT as ya'll were, but I understood the first two. Bottom line, Ramsey has physical skills Brunell doesn't. Brunell has experience that PR lacks. But if we don't see the benefit of that experience on Sundays, what good does it do?

Anyway, we played a 100% awful game on offense. Period. If we had lucked out, scored and won, would you all feel a lot better? I don't know about you, but I was screaming at my tv during that game. I'm not down on this team, but sometimes a good ass beating isn't the worst thing for a team to get, better than a cheap win that over inflates the collective ego.