The virtue of patience
 

I posted something similar to this on another board a couple months back but I thought it'd be relevant with all of the "IR/Bench" Kelly sentiment around here..

There's so much negativity about JC and our rookies from last year I wanted to give a little recent (this decade) historical perspective on patience with letting players develop..

QB- in his first 28 starts he compiles stats of 29 TD, 31 INT, averaging right around 200 yards per game, 6.7 yards per completion, 79.7 QB rating while posting a sub .500 record. He's roundly criticized by his team's fan base for his lack of production, lack of consistency, accuracy and leadership abilities. Their was excitement was boundless when his replacement was sought, even though it was publicly botched.

WR- in his rookie year as a first day pick he plays in 15 games, starting 1, gets 10 catches for 154 yards and no TD. He's got a ton of raw talent but fans and media wonder if he will ever amount to anything because he's a bit of a knucklehead.

WR- in his rookie year as a first day pick he misses 11 games with a knee injury, playing in only 5 games. He amasses 2 catches for 40 yards and no TD and is widely criticized as a player who will always be injured and will struggle to be a consistent performer for his team.

TE- in his rookie year he comes in as a first day pick. Starts 10 games in a pass friendly offense and racks up 29 catches and 1 TD. His tools are unquestionable but his production pales in comparison.

At a glance, what would you have felt about those players at the points of their careers that JC, Thomas, Kelly and Davis are at right now? Any guesses about who those players were/are?

Re: The virtue of patience
 

Overall people just need to calm down, it's freaking May. Save the drama for training camp.

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The QB is drew brees.

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and Santanna is one of the WR's (the injury prone one). No clue on TE or other WR.

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^Correct on both..

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Steve Smith is the other WR

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[quote=Paintrain;554875]
QB- in his first 28 starts he compiles stats of 29 TD, 31 INT, averaging right around 200 yards per game, 6.7 yards per completion, 79.7 QB rating while posting a sub .500 record. He's roundly criticized by his team's fan base for his lack of production, lack of consistency, accuracy and leadership abilities. Their was excitement was boundless when his replacement was sought, even though it was publicly botched.[/quote]

Drew Brees

EDIT: Late to the party I see. That's what I get for looking away from the computer to try and noodle it over!

Re: The virtue of patience
 

The TE is Clark from Indy.

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So what do we win?

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[quote=JoeRedskin;554891]So what do we win?[/quote]

An extra large bucket of pride. :)

Seriously, the point is acting the way we're acting we would have given up on Drew Brees, Santana Moss, Steve Smith and Dallas Clark. Not to project that Campbell, Kelly, Thomas and Davis will become those types of players but so many 'fans' are so willing to throw in the towel on guys early in their careers it's mind blowing.

Re: The virtue of patience
 

that was fun. I wanna play again.

Re: The virtue of patience
 

[quote=Paintrain;554894]An extra large bucket of pride. :)

Seriously, the point is acting the way we're acting we would have given up on Drew Brees, Santana Moss, Steve Smith and Dallas Clark. Not to project that Campbell, Kelly, Thomas and Davis will become those types of players but so many 'fans' are so willing to throw in the towel on guys early in their careers it's mind blowing.[/quote]

I 100% agree. I think too many fans look around the league and see one or two (skill-position) rookies really having impacts every year and 8-12 second year guys and forget about the 100+ 3+ year players having huge impacts. For every Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco there are 5 or 6 Heath Shulers, Ryan Leafs, Tim Couchs, Kyle Bollers, etc..

For every Desean Jackson there are DOZENS or WRs who don't do suat for at least 3 years.

It is the way it is. Hell even the mighty Sean Taylor, as good as he was, struggled at times his rookie year. And he is pretty roundly considered our best draft pick in probably 25 years.

Patience is part of it but I also think it requires fans to actually know what the hell is going on and have some kind of clue what they are talking about. For each person on this site that tries to stay informed and knowledgeable there are 100 who read Peter King and JLC as gospel every now and again and think they know what is "wrong" with the Skins. Not that they need to spend hours of their life on message boards discussing this stuff and educating themselves but most fans are dolts and don't know it. There's a reason why it is hard to win in the NFL. If it was as easy as most dolt fans think then more dolt fans would be running teams.

Re: The virtue of patience
 

I think for the most part fans have been patient w/ JC. I see a little impatience w/ MK, DT, and Fred Davis. I think most fans are willing to give JC a full year this year to see how he progresses.

Now, the FO, has been impatient w/ JC and lacks anything resembling a plan. Actually, they did have a plan to alienate our starting qb on multiple occasions all the while misleading him and us along the way. So, maybe they did have that plan.

So I'm patient w/ JC and want to give him a full year to show his improvement. I want to see him do that. If he doesn't show any signs of having the so called "it" we've been talking about, well, we have a decision to make.

Re: The virtue of patience
 

Excellent thread. :food-smil

Re: The virtue of patience
 

Whenever comparisons are made, they are usually made with someone who is the exception to the rule. Disappointment is inevitable in most cases. If comparisons were made with the norm, there wouldn't be so much reason for panic. You would understand that[B] most[/B] receivers take 2-3 years to develop. That the WCO takes 2-3 years to become efficient. That QB's do better when playing in the same system instead of changing every year or two. This isn't bad, it's just normal. Impatience says we want it to happen now, not after the time it has been proven to normally take. But then again there's always the exception to the rule, and that's what we continue to make comparisons to. "Well Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco took their teams to the playoffs in their rookie years and they had a new system." Once again, an exception to the rule. Drew Brees did'nt. Peyton Manning didn't. Troy Aikman didn't. Realistic expectations based on history make for a sound outlook. Unrealistic expectations based on the exceptions of a few create anxiety and disappointment. :twocents:

Re: The virtue of patience
 

[quote=53Fan;554934]Whenever comparisons are made, they are usually made with someone who is the exception to the rule. Disappointment is inevitable in most cases. If comparisons were made with the norm, there wouldn't be so much reason for panic. You would understand that[B] most[/B] receivers take 2-3 years to develop. That the WCO takes 2-3 years to become efficient. That QB's do better when playing in the same system instead of changing every year or two. This isn't bad, it's just normal. Impatience says we want it to happen now, not after the time it has been proven to normally take. But then again there's always the exception to the rule, and that's what we continue to make comparisons to. "Well Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco took their teams to the playoffs in their rookie years and they had a new system." Once again, an exception to the rule. Drew Brees did'nt. Peyton Manning didn't. Troy Aikman didn't. Realistic expectations based on history make for a sound outlook. Unrealistic expectations based on the exceptions of a few create anxiety and disappointment. :twocents:[/quote]

well that's all good and well. so we get to the SB this year right?? ;)

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;554936]well that's all good and well. so we get to the SB this year right?? ;)[/quote]

Oh yeah. Of course. :)

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[quote=53Fan;554934]Whenever comparisons are made, they are usually made with someone who is the exception to the rule. Disappointment is inevitable in most cases. If comparisons were made with the norm, there wouldn't be so much reason for panic. You would understand that[B] most[/B] receivers take 2-3 years to develop. That the WCO takes 2-3 years to become efficient. That QB's do better when playing in the same system instead of changing every year or two. This isn't bad, it's just normal. Impatience says we want it to happen now, not after the time it has been proven to normally take. But then again there's always the exception to the rule, and that's what we continue to make comparisons to. "Well Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco took their teams to the playoffs in their rookie years and they had a new system." Once again, an exception to the rule. Drew Brees did'nt. Peyton Manning didn't. Troy Aikman didn't. Realistic expectations based on history make for a sound outlook. Unrealistic expectations based on the exceptions of a few create anxiety and disappointment. :twocents:[/quote]

Most receivers who had rookie statistics comparable to Devin Thomas' never become adequate NFL receivers. Steve Smith and Brandon Marshall are actually exceptions in that regard. Few receivers have tremendous rookie campaigns, but 25-40 catches for 400-600 yards is something you would like to see from the 34th pick. So it is actually bending statistics in the other direction when you simply say it takes 2-3 years for a WR to "develop." Yes and no. It typically does take time before you get big production, but you also don't typically see a guy go from completely lost to suddenly becoming a stud receiver.

But that is fine. We all hope they both become contributers. I mean I haven't see a single serious person suggest that either Thomas or Kelly should get jettisoned at this point. Expressions of concern about Kelly's knee are not calls for his release. I think the descriptions of fan "impatience" are overstated, at least judging by serious people on this site (who cares about other people). The most serious impatience this offseason has been the front office's very public desire to dump Campbell before giving him a second year in Zorn's offense.

Re: The virtue of patience
 

[quote=Paintrain;554875]I posted something similar to this on another board a couple months back but I thought it'd be relevant with all of the "IR/Bench" Kelly sentiment around here..

There's so much negativity about JC and our rookies from last year I wanted to give a little recent (this decade) historical perspective on patience with letting players develop..

QB- in his first 28 starts he compiles stats of 29 TD, 31 INT, averaging right around 200 yards per game, 6.7 yards per completion, 79.7 QB rating while posting a sub .500 record. He's roundly criticized by his team's fan base for his lack of production, lack of consistency, accuracy and leadership abilities. Their was excitement was boundless when his replacement was sought, even though it was publicly botched.

WR- in his rookie year as a first day pick he plays in 15 games, starting 1, gets 10 catches for 154 yards and no TD. He's got a ton of raw talent but fans and media wonder if he will ever amount to anything because he's a bit of a knucklehead.

WR- in his rookie year as a first day pick he misses 11 games with a knee injury, playing in only 5 games. He amasses 2 catches for 40 yards and no TD and is widely criticized as a player who will always be injured and will struggle to be a consistent performer for his team.

TE- in his rookie year he comes in as a first day pick. Starts 10 games in a pass friendly offense and racks up 29 catches and 1 TD. His tools are unquestionable but his production pales in comparison.

At a glance, what would you have felt about those players at the points of their careers that JC, Thomas, Kelly and Davis are at right now? Any guesses about who those players were/are?[/quote]

The probelm with Kelly is he couldn't even get on the field at all. He couldn't even practice. Nothing. At least Thomas got in games and played on teams. Sorry but staying patient with Kelly really isn't an option at this point. If he can't get on the field by training camp then someone is going to take his job. His roster spot is too valuable and other guys are being signed that can play teams and be a 3rd or 4th wr. I'm much more willing to be patient with Thomas cause he can help out on teams and he's got game experience. I think with Fred Davis it's only a matter of time. To be honest he's got more ability than Cooley. It all boils down to if he can learn how to be a professional. If he does then there is no way he's not going to be on the field.

Re: The virtue of patience
 

Here's a few more "who are they?" players. All of these players were drafted within the last ten years.

1) This quarterback was sacked on a very high 7% of his attempts as a rookie, behind an offensive line that was, at the time, considered to be a young, talented one. He completed an acceptable 60% of his passes that year, while not even throwing for 3,000 yards. He had a respectable 14-12 TD/INT rate as a rookie. He also has multiple playoff victories and is considered a fiery leader and a winner. This quarterback has never been to a pro-bowl.

2) This first day NFL Draft selection is currently the unquestioned starter of an NFL team. As a rookie, he completed only 56.1% of his passes. His sack rate increased from his rookie year to his second year by 1.5%. He is a career 1:1 TD/INT guy, who has never had 2,700 yards passing in a single season, despite starting 23 career games. Despite a winning record as a starter, his teams have never really been competitive for a playoff spot. Part of that is due to an extensive injury history and a horrific quarterback situation behind him.

3) This tight end is a four time pro-bowler, all with the same team. As a rookie, he started 12 games, but only recorded 330 yards and 3 TDs. Despite the slow start, he scored 5+ TDs in four consecutive NFL seasons. No tight end in the history of his division has come anywhere close to his career production. Injuries eventually did him in: he started in 62 of 64 games during his four pro bowl seasons, but has missed games the last two seasons.

4) This running back is a former top ten draft pick, who flamed out so badly with his first team that he was universally considered a collassal bust after his third season. After being released by the team that drafted with him, he got signed by the team that had won the super bowl the prior season, and had a career-saving season. The following season, he signed a big-money deal, and since then, he has increased his productivity every season, playing in a super bowl, and enjoying a career year at age-30 where he was elected to the pro-bowl for the first time.

5) This former first round draft pick wide receiver did not even combine for 1,000 yards in his first two years in the NFL. Up until that point, he had been considered an effective deep threat with hands that would never allow him to be a quality starting receiver. In his second NFL season, he didn't even get in the end zone. Faced with the proposition of many bad investments on offense over the prior four years, his team changed coaches and quarterbacks, and he responded with a 1,200+ yard breakout season. The following year, this clear cut No. 1 receiver was elected to the pro bowl, and he helped take his team to the playoffs.

6) After two NFL seasons, it was hard to see where this former first round WR was going to fit in. He had marginal productivity for a 2 year veteran, and was blocked by one of the greatest receivers to ever play. Finally, in his third year, his team found a place in the starting lineup for him, and he flourished. This three time pro-bowler has a consecutive starts streak that spans six seasons, and has 1,000 yards receiving in five consecutive seasons, while having totaled 53 career touchdowns.

Who are these guys?

Re: The virtue of patience
 

[quote=GTripp0012;554960]Here's a few more "who are they?" players. All of these players were drafted within the last ten years.

1) This quarterback was sacked on a very high 7% of his attempts as a rookie, behind an offensive line that was, at the time, considered to be a young, talented one. He completed an acceptable 60% of his passes that year, while not even throwing for 3,000 yards. He had a respectable 14-12 TD/INT rate as a rookie. He also has multiple playoff victories and is considered a fiery leader and a winner. This quarterback has never been to a pro-bowl.

2) This first day NFL Draft selection is currently the unquestioned starter of an NFL team. As a rookie, he completed only 56.1% of his passes. His sack rate increased from his rookie year to his second year by 1.5%. He is a career 1:1 TD/INT guy, who has never had 2,700 yards passing in a single season, despite starting 23 career games. Despite a winning record as a starter, his teams have never really been competitive for a playoff spot. Part of that is due to an extensive injury history and a horrific quarterback situation behind him.

3) This tight end is a four time pro-bowler, all with the same team. As a rookie, he started 12 games, but only recorded 330 yards and 3 TDs. Despite the slow start, he scored 5+ TDs in four consecutive NFL seasons. No tight end in the history of his division has come anywhere close to his career production. Injuries eventually did him in: he started in 62 of 64 games during his four pro bowl seasons, but has missed games the last two seasons.

4) This running back is a former top ten draft pick, who flamed out so badly with his first team that he was universally considered a collassal bust after his third season. After being released by the team that drafted with him, he got signed by the team that had won the super bowl the prior season, and had a career-saving season. The following season, he signed a big-money deal, and since then, he has increased his productivity every season, playing in a super bowl, and enjoying a career year at age-30 where he was elected to the pro-bowl for the first time.

5) This former first round draft pick wide receiver did not even combine for 1,000 yards in his first two years in the NFL. Up until that point, he had been considered an effective deep threat with hands that would never allow him to be a quality starting receiver. In his second NFL season, he didn't even get in the end zone. Faced with the proposition of many bad investments on offense over the prior four years, his team changed coaches and quarterbacks, and he responded with a 1,200+ yard breakout season. The following year, this clear cut No. 1 receiver was elected to the pro bowl, and he helped take his team to the playoffs.

6) After two NFL seasons, it was hard to see where this former first round WR was going to fit in. He had marginal productivity for a 2 year veteran, and was blocked by one of the greatest receivers to ever play. Finally, in his third year, his team found a place in the starting lineup for him, and he flourished. This three time pro-bowler has a consecutive starts streak that spans six seasons, and has 1,000 yards receiving in five consecutive seasons, while having totaled 53 career touchdowns.

Who are these guys?[/quote]

1)
2) Kyle Orton
3) Alge Crumpler
4) Thomas Jones
5)
6) Reggie Wayne

Still working on 1 and 5...

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#6 Is Reggie Wayne?

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[quote=GMScud;554962]1)
2) Kyle Orton
3) Alge Crumpler
4) Thomas Jones
5)
6) Reggie Wayne

Still working on 1 and 5...[/quote]Crumpler, Jones, and Wayne are all correct. I had someone else in mind at No. 2 besides Orton, although I'm sure all that criteria applies to him as well.

Here's a hint for those trying No. 1: Don't let my use of tense throw you off, it really is the first player you'd think of.

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[quote=GTripp0012;554964]Crumpler, Jones, and Wayne are all correct. I had someone else in mind at No. 2 besides Orton, although I'm sure all that criteria applies to him as well.

Here's a hint for those trying No. 1: Don't let my use of tense throw you off, it really is the first player you'd think of.[/quote]

1) Joe Flacco

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1 is Flacco.

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2) Trent Edwards

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Correct.

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5) Roddy White

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[quote=GTripp0012;554964]Crumpler, Jones, and Wayne are all correct. I had someone else in mind at No. 2 besides Orton, although I'm sure all that criteria applies to him as well.

Here's a hint for those trying No. 1: Don't let my use of tense throw you off, it really is the first player you'd think of.[/quote]

2) Trent Edwards.

I still can't figure out #1

EDIT: woops, didn't see you guys already figured it out.

Nice quiz GTripp.

Re: The virtue of patience
 

Roddy White is No. 5.

Good work guys.

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[quote=GTripp0012;554976]Roddy White is No. 5.

Good work guys.[/quote]

Crap! I had Roddy White but where I checked his stats it started in 2006. I thought that was his first year when he didn't get a TD. SC Skins Fan and GMScud :goodjob: Fun post Tripp! Nice thread Paintrain!

Re: The virtue of patience
 

there is a problem with patience. this organization doesn't have any. Which translates to the fan base. Everyone has a win now attitude, instead of building a solid foundation from the ground up. We have had this discussion a million times on this board, and no matter how you word it, it is always the same blame game. THE FO! the stink. They give up picks for other people's garbage. Its not coinsidence that teams that have fought for playoffs year in and year out always have 7 or more picks in the draft. and they make quality picks by quality GM's, not by the owner and his yes man. Eagles, Giants, Pats, have built through the draft. Even the Dolphins with Parcells has started to get it right. the Texans were going in the right direction before getting Casserly out. When you are a Redskin fan, you can not have patience because the front office does not allow us to build these young guys. If they dont produce in two years, they are gone.

Mostly, its bad draft picks, and bad decisions, but eventually they will get it right.....wont they?

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[quote=#56fanatic;555479]there is a problem with patience. this organization doesn't have any. Which translates to the fan base.[/quote]

I really don't think it works this way exactly. Both the FO and the fans influence each other when it comes to patience. The Redskins are the #1 sport in the DC area, trumping two baseball teams, a pro basketball team, a pro hockey team, and two renowned college basketball program (G'town & UMD). I think when you garner this much attention in a big market, your fanbase is going to be pretty impatient.

[quote=#56fanatic;555479]We have had this discussion a million times on this board, and no matter how you word it, it is always the same blame game. THE FO! the stink. [B]They give up picks for other people's garbage.[/B][/quote]

Jason Taylor was the last time this happened, and I don't think he was garbage (so do people that talk football for a living).

[quote=#56fanatic;555479]Its not coinsidence that teams that have fought for playoffs year in and year out always have 7 or more picks in the draft. and they make quality picks by [B]quality GM's[/B], not by the owner and his yes man. Eagles, Giants, [B]Pats[/B], have built through the draft. [/quote]

In New England, Darth Hoody calls the shots, no one else. Otherwise I do agree with your points here.

[quote=#56fanatic;555479]When you are a Redskin fan, you can not have patience because [B]the front office does not allow us to build these young[/B] guys. If they dont produce in two years, they are gone.

Mostly, [B]its bad draft picks, and bad decisions[/B], but eventually they will get it right.....wont they?[/quote]

I think the team has built through the draft, it is just that the big flashy trades tend overshadow this. All of these players have been built through the draft: Chris Cooley, Sean Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Rocky McIntosh, Jason Campbell, Derrick Dockery, Kedrick Golston, Anthony Montgomery, Reed Doughty, Laron Landry and Chris Samuels.

And between last year and this year, they continue to build through the draft with Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas, Fred Davis, Chad Rinehart, Chris Horton, Kareem Moore, Brian Orakpo, and Kevin Barnes.

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I can't wait to see the Dolphins finish about 5-11 this year. Then how many people will be honking on the genius of Parcells then?

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[quote=Mattyk72;555522]I can't wait to see the Dolphins finish about 5-11 this year. Then how many people will be honking on the genius of Parcells then?[/quote]

And see the Dolphins' fans trying to convince themselves that Pat White is their QB of the future.

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[quote=Mattyk72;555522]I can't wait to see the Dolphins finish about 5-11 this year. Then how many people will be honking on the genius of Parcells then?[/quote]

I agree, I mean how far can you really go with mostly gimmick plays.

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The Fins had a very easy schedule last year; this year it is tougher.

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Well '09 will tell the tale for sure about JC and those rook WRs from last year.

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[quote=Ruhskins;555518]I really don't think it works this way exactly. Both the FO and the fans influence each other when it comes to patience. The Redskins are the #1 sport in the DC area, trumping two baseball teams, a pro basketball team, a pro hockey team, and two renowned college basketball program (G'town & UMD). I think when you garner this much attention in a big market, your fanbase is going to be pretty impatient.



Jason Taylor was the last time this happened, and I don't think he was garbage (so do people that talk football for a living).



In New England, Darth Hoody calls the shots, no one else. Otherwise I do agree with your points here.



I think the team has built through the draft, it is just that the big flashy trades tend overshadow this. All of these players have been built through the draft: Chris Cooley, Sean Taylor, Carlos Rogers, Rocky McIntosh, Jason Campbell, Derrick Dockery, Kedrick Golston, Anthony Montgomery, Reed Doughty, Laron Landry and Chris Samuels.

And between last year and this year, they continue to build through the draft with Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas, Fred Davis, Chad Rinehart, Chris Horton, Kareem Moore, Brian Orakpo, and Kevin Barnes.[/quote]

Good post Ruh