the new health care?
 

[URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30672330/"][COLOR=#0066cc]Industry reps offer $2 trillion in health savings [/COLOR][/URL]
i don't know about you guys, but this scares the shit out of me. that these companies are this eager to get that bill passed

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote]The upfront tab for the federal government from Obama's proposed expansion of health coverage will be due right away while the savings he expects from wringing waste and inefficiency from the health care system will take longer to show up.[/quote]

I know it has been said many times, and many ways, but since when have we relied on the government to decrease inefficiencies?

Re: the new health care?
 

One time this weed dealer told me the first bag of weed is 70% off.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=dmek25;556492][URL="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30672330/"][COLOR=#0066cc]Industry reps offer $2 trillion in health savings [/COLOR][/URL]
i don't know about you guys, but this scares the shit out of me. that these companies are this eager to get that bill passed[/quote]
Not sure why it would scare the sh%^ out of you if corporations are looking to reduce cost? I personally think if the goverment can get the health industry to start looking for each and every way to reduce cost that is the best way to start. I do know that if goverment try's to take over health ins. it will only get worse and more expensive.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;556495]I know it has been said many times, and many ways, but since when have we relied on the government to decrease inefficiencies?[/quote]

In the 1930's and 40's. It was called Fascism and National Socialism, Mr. Mussolini made the trains run on time.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;556537]In the 1930's and 40's. It was called Fascism and National Socialism, Mr. Mussolini made the trains run on time.[/quote]

And Wilson promised a Chicken in every pot or something like that, but in both cases the economic and social prices seem awfully high. (and just because something runs on time doesn't mean its doing it efficiently. I am not saying his wasn't efficient, just pointing out a faulty analogy on your part ;) )

Re: the new health care?
 

Democracy is a beautiful thing. Go get people to vote for your preferred policy and you too can enjoy whatever form of government you want. It's a shame the jazz in some people's mouth is still so worm they have to resort to using cliché and buzz words like fascism and socialism. Terrible shame.

I hear Somalia is great this time of the year. Don't forget to get a tan, we don't want you to standout.

[YT]7QDv4sYwjO0[/YT]

Re: the new health care?
 

saden, you know the word change is equal to the word fear in alot of peoples minds. the thing that worries me is that these money making machines are so anxious to get this bill passed, even before congress actually even sees it. there must be a whole lot of incentives( $) in it for them. and in turn, this usually means the average Joe's, like me and you, are getting screwed. don't get me wrong, im for universal health care. but i would like to see it done right

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556544]Democracy is a beautiful thing. Go get people to vote for your preferred policy and you too can enjoy whatever form of government you want. It's a shame the jazz in some people's mouth is still so worm they have to resort to using cliché and buzz words like fascism and socialism. Terrible shame.

I hear Somalia is great this time of the year. Don't forget to get a tan, we don't want you to standout.

[yt]7QDv4sYwjO0[/yt][/quote]

I'm with you that all "ism" words get thrown around so much they loose their meaning.

Re: the new health care?
 

Wow. Let's all just miss the point.

Democratic governments, by nature are less efficient b/c they are concerned with fairness. National Socialism, Facism and other autocratic/authoritarian forms of government are more likely to be "efficient" b/c they need not worry about being re-elected.

The original comment was something like "when have we relied on governments reducing inefficiency". I only used the fascist/national socialism example b/c of the infamous quote about Mussolini and the trains. To me, it summed up the inevitable price we pay for living in a democracy.

Obviously, their are exceptions, but, in general, and b/c we value fairness, any time we devise a system to determine how benefits should be divided, built into that system will be ways to challenge and test the fairness of the govt's actions. An authoritarian form of govt. (such as Nazism or Fascism) is not bound by these strictures and simply says "You get X, if you don't like it tough sh**."

That was my only point.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556544]Democracy is a beautiful thing. Go get people to vote for your preferred policy and you too can enjoy whatever form of government you want. It's a shame the jazz in some people's mouth is still so worm they have to resort to using cliché and buzz words like fascism and socialism. Terrible shame.

I hear Somalia is great this time of the year. Don't forget to get a tan, we don't want you to standout.

[YT]7QDv4sYwjO0[/YT][/quote]

Can't access the imbedded photo or video at work and don't particularly care. Democracy [I]is[/I] a beautiful thing. When have I advocated differently? See my post above for the point I was making. Before implying people are cocksucker's, maybe you might want try be sure you understand their point.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=dmek25;556549]saden, you know the word change is equal to the word fear in alot of peoples minds. the thing that worries me is that these money making machines are so anxious to get this bill passed, even before congress actually even sees it. there must be a whole lot of incentives( $) in it for them. and in turn, this usually means the average Joe's, like me and you, are getting screwed. don't get me wrong, im for universal health care. but i would like to see it done right[/quote]

I don't think fear is the issue. There are plenty of examples of national health care, and while it offers some benefits for the mob, more efficiency is not one of them, which was the only statement I was making originally. As for the rest of this thread ... whatever.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;556553]Can't access the imbedded photo or video at work and don't particularly care. Democracy [I]is[/I] a beautiful thing. When have I advocated differently? See my post above for the point I was making. Before implying people are cocksucker's, maybe you might want try be sure you understand their point.[/quote]


We all infer what we want. I'm affirming the beauty of democracy and how the "transformation" of this country is in accordance with democratic principles. As for the Jazz jab, what can I say, the world is full of cocksuckers (tea baggers come to mind) who are still bitter they lost the election. If you're one of them god bless you. It's nothing personal.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556544]Democracy is a beautiful thing. Go get people to vote for your preferred policy and you too can enjoy whatever form of government you want. It's a shame the jazz in some people's mouth is still so worm they have to resort to using cliché and buzz words like fascism and socialism. Terrible shame.

I hear Somalia is great this time of the year. Don't forget to get a tan, we don't want you to standout.

[/quote]
Our government structure is, imo, the best style going.(although still evil Joe) - pure democracy is not a beautiful thing, and I would be surprised Saden, if you felt it was. There always needs to be some check on the simple majority, because otherwise the minority gets trampled. I was damn close to going to Somalia under Clinton and I didn't want to then and don't now. No government is called Anarchy, not Libertarian. Very poor post for you Saden, not very reflective, and relatively inaccurate departure from your norm.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;556558]Our government structure is, imo, the best style going.(although still evil Joe) - pure democracy is not a beautiful thing, and I would be surprised Saden, if you felt it was. There always needs to be some check on the simple majority, because otherwise the minority gets trampled. I was damn close to going to Somalia under Clinton and I didn't want to then and don't now. No government is called Anarchy, not Libertarian. Very poor post for you Saden, not very reflective, and relatively inaccurate departure from your norm.[/quote]

That's where the constitution and the court system come into play. No system can ever be perfect including ours (see locking up people without trial) but it sure beats a lot of other systems except the system used by the Federation where people "live and work to better themselves" and the Federation exists "to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life forms and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556560]That's where the constitution and the court system come into play. No system can ever be perfect including ours (see locking up people without trial) but it sure beats a lot of other systems except the system used by the Federation where people "live and work to better themselves" and the Federation exists "to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life forms and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before."[/quote]

Any comment I could add to that could be a spoiler so we will let it fly.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556544]Democracy is a beautiful thing. Go get people to vote for your preferred policy and you too can enjoy whatever form of government you want. It's a shame the jazz in some people's mouth is still so worm they have to resort to using cliché and buzz words like fascism and socialism. Terrible shame.

I hear Somalia is great this time of the year. Don't forget to get a tan, we don't want you to standout.

[YT]7QDv4sYwjO0[/YT][/quote]

That's why we have (had) a Republic and not a Democracy. The people will vote for any damn thing they feel like unless there are laws to stop them. Democracy is nothing more than Mob Rule. Just because voters have the mine to say, vote for free housing or a free Hummer with gold platted rims, doesn't mean it's lawful.
I'm sick right now but I don't expect anyone to take care of me. Why should I pay more money to pay for someone else's health? How is it that liberals want to seperate Christianity from government but still expect non-Christians like myself to be my "so-called" brother's keeper?
You forgot to include Progressivism in your list. It's not much of a "change" either, just see how Woodrow Wilson wanted to make the world safe for Democracy by going to war with countries that never attacked us. Does that sound familiar? Your lovely Progressive movement gave us the Federal Reserve. Now we get to have free health care just like they have in England and Cuba. Thanks :vomit:

Re: the new health care?
 

LOL...Hope you can afford your medical bills, we don't have universal healthcare yet.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy"]Representative Democracy[/URL]:
[quote]"the United States relies on [B]representative democracy[/B], but [its] system of government is much more complex than that. [It is] not a simple representative democracy, but a [B]constitutional republic[/B] in which majority rule is tempered by minority rights protected by law."[/quote]

Ron Paul lost. I'm so sorry for your loss.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556578]LOL...Hope you can afford your medical bills, we don't have universal healthcare yet.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy"]Representative Democracy[/URL]:


Ron Paul lost. I'm so sorry for your loss.[/quote]
I currently pay around $650 per month for a family plan and I'm sure its much better and cheaper then anything the goverment can come up with. I do believe we need to overhaul health insurance I just don't want it run by the goverment.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=firstdown;556581]I currently pay around $650 per month for a family plan and I'm sure its much better[B] and cheaper then anything the goverment can come up with[/B]. I do believe we need to overhaul health insurance I just don't want it run by the goverment.[/quote]

How can $650 a month be cheaper than free???

[/sarcasm]

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=firstdown;556581]I currently pay around $650 per month for a family plan and I'm sure its much better and cheaper then anything the goverment can come up with. I do believe we need to overhaul health insurance I just don't want it run by the goverment.[/quote]

Yeah, because private health care providers[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/10/AR2009051002243.html?hpid=topnews"] aren't going to screw you[/URL] like the government.

For the lazy and those who don't particularly care:

[quote]...The firm eventually pleaded guilty to charges that it overbilled state and federal health plans, paying a record $1.7 billion in fines. [/quote]

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556584]Yeah, because private health care providers[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/10/AR2009051002243.html?hpid=topnews"] aren't going to screw you[/URL] like the government.

For the lazy and those who don't particularly care:[/quote]


Hey thats just another arguement of why the goverment should not be involved in health ins.. It will be fill with fraud just like you kindly pointed out with your link.

Re: the new health care?
 

Since someone mentioned Ron Paul, who is a medical doctor, I thought it would be important to hear what he says about health care:

[quote]We should remember that HMOs did not arise because of free-market demand, but rather because of government mandates. The HMO Act of 1973 requires all but the smallest employers to offer their employees HMO coverage, and the tax code allows businesses -- but not individuals -- to deduct the cost of health insurance premiums. The result is the illogical coupling of employment and health insurance, which often leaves the unemployed without needed catastrophic coverage.

While many in Congress are happy to criticize HMOs today, the public never hears how [URL="http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=474"]the present system was imposed upon the American people by federal law.[/URL][/quote]

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=firstdown;556600]Hey thats just another arguement of why the goverment should not be involved in health ins.. It will be fill with fraud just like you kindly pointed out with your link.[/quote]

We have all heard of the $5,000 toilet seat. Get ready for the $5,000 sepository.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=Beemnseven;556604]Since someone mentioned Ron Paul, who is a medical doctor, I thought it would be important to hear what he says about health care:[/quote]

Good one!

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556578]LOL...Hope you can afford your medical bills, we don't have universal healthcare yet.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy"]Representative Democracy[/URL]:


Ron Paul lost. I'm so sorry for your loss.[/quote]

You just backed up my argument dingus. Yeah, I pay for my own health care, nor would I want "free" medicine. Ron Paul was not nominated by a major party last time?

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=Beemnseven;556604]Since someone mentioned Ron Paul, who is a medical doctor, I thought it would be important to hear what he says about health care:[/quote]
The federal goverment also mandates that health ins co have all sorts of coverages that the average person does not need. Its more like one ploicy fits all and it drives up the cost to everyone who purchases ins. I don't have a problem with the estabishment of a basic type policy and then allow comsumers to add additional coverages they feel their family needs.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;556613]We have all heard of the $5,000 toilet seat. Get ready for the $5,000 sepository.[/quote]

Man that's just gotta hurt!

Re: the new health care?
 

I don't know why they only promised 2 trillion. They could have said 10 trillion since everyone knows it's a load of b.s. anyways. If they hang around Obama's people long enough they will eventually learn this lesson. By providing the administration with this phony cost cutting fig leaf, they have guaranteed their continued viability and profitability. It is the best money they will never have to spend.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=70Chip;556629]I don't know why they only promised 2 trillion. They could have said 10 trillion since everyone knows it's a load of b.s. anyways. If they hang around Obama's people long enough they will eventually learn this lesson. By providing the administration with this phony cost cutting fig leaf, they have guaranteed their continued viability and profitability. It is the best money they will never have to spend.[/quote]
You're exactly right. Great move by the AMA and pharmacutical lobby. It's simple Sales 101, throw out a cost leader ($ 2T in savings over 10 years, unquantified). Get cozy with the current Administration and Congress as they jam a MASSIVE entitlement program down the throat of the American people. At the end of the day come away with 46 million new customers and the other 250+ million need to play by the rules set by the Obama admin and Dem congress (which I'm sure will be quite favorable for the AMA and pharm cos. as long as they continue to endorse and fund Dem campaigns).

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556584]Yeah, because private health care providers[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/10/AR2009051002243.html?hpid=topnews"] aren't going to screw you[/URL] like the government.

For the lazy and those who don't particularly care:[/quote]
Your article and point actually re-emphasize first's point.

The company was fined $ 1.7B, which means it probably overcharged at least 4x that amount. Over $ 6B. Do you think a private or public company would allow their insurance carrier to do this? Absolutely not! The billing would be scrutinized closely and if there were excessive overcharges the company would find a new insurer. Free market solves the problem.

However as firstdown pointed out, when you get Gov't involved they have a monopoly for certain programs. There is no option to change insurers. You have GS-5 & 7s reconciling the bills at the Fed or state agencies, and GS-13s playing office politics and hanging around until retirement, that's when this type of fraud goes unchecked.

Also, it's nice to see how much you respect folks who have a different view than you on the direction the current Administration and Congress is going (cocksuckers/teabaggers was the term, I believe). Disappointing.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;556656]Your article and point actually re-emphasize first's point.

The company was fined $ 1.7B, which means it probably overcharged at least 4x that amount. Over $ 6B. Do you think a private or public company would allow their insurance carrier to do this? Absolutely not! The billing would be scrutinized closely and if there were excessive overcharges the company would find a new insurer. Free market solves the problem.

However as firstdown pointed out, when you get Gov't involved they have a monopoly for certain programs. There is no option to change insurers. You have GS-5 & 7s reconciling the bills at the Fed or state agencies, and GS-13s playing office politics and hanging around until retirement, that's when this type of fraud goes unchecked.

Also, it's nice to see how much you respect folks who have a different view than you on the direction the current Administration and Congress is going (cocksuckers/teabaggers was the term, I believe). Disappointing.[/quote]

Perhaps it's also time to privatize the military as it is currently inefficient and sustainable to fraud. Instead of blaming the government how about blaming the fraudsters? Your argument is no different than that of people who want to ban guns because they kill people.

I am sorry but I can't bring myself to respect people who think this country is heading down the toilet because of the new Administration and Congress. There's nothing to respect about these people's views. Nothing! What's disappointing is that somehow you think they should be respected.


To be honest I too want his kidneys to fail.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556668]Perhaps it's also time to privatize the military as it is currently inefficient and sustainable to fraud. Instead of blaming the government how about blaming the fraudsters? Your argument is no different than that of people who want to ban guns because they kill people.

I am sorry but I can't bring myself to respect people who think this country is heading down the toilet because of the new Administration and Congress. There's nothing to respect about these people's views. Nothing! What's disappointing is that somehow you think they should be respected.


To be honest I too want his kidneys to fail.[/quote]

Where have you been? They've already privatized the military. Wishing death on someone that isn't Bin Laden just makes you a jerk.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556668]Perhaps it's also time to privatize the military as it is currently inefficient and sustainable to fraud. Instead of blaming the government how about blaming the fraudsters? Your argument is no different than that of people who want to ban guns because they kill people.

I am sorry but I can't bring myself to respect people who think this country is heading down the toilet because of the new Administration and Congress. There's nothing to respect about these people's views. Nothing! What's disappointing is that somehow you think they should be respected.


To be honest I too want his kidneys to fail.[/quote]
I think it is hilarious that people say conservatives are the ones who are hateful and close-minded.

And its not like a $1.8 trillion dollar deficit is excessive or anything, where 46% of the budget is borrowed money. Lets solve our recession that was caused by borrowing too much money by borrowing a whole lot more money. That makes perfect sense.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556668][B]Perhaps it's also time to privatize the military as it is currently inefficient and sustainable to fraud.[/B] Instead of blaming the government how about blaming the fraudsters? Your argument is no different than that of people who want to ban guns because they kill people.

I am sorry but I can't bring myself to respect people who think this country is heading down the toilet because of the new Administration and Congress. There's nothing to respect about these people's views. Nothing! What's disappointing is that somehow you think they should be respected.


To be honest I too want his kidneys to fail.[/quote]

Saden, still you seem swallowed up in this one.

I doubt any military person will tell you it is run efficiently. I can tell you from my experience, that having 30 people stand and look over several Humvees is not very efficient. As for fraud, I would refer back to the 5000 dollar toilet seat. Sure the military gets the job done, and remember THAT is specifically in the Constitution(not a standing army per se, but the defense of the nation), clearly it is not the same as nationalized health care.

I think if, as I assume, you are for National Healthcare, than you would be able to acknowledge the obvious flaws, and point out your perceived benefits, that is that everyone would have some basic protection, and that could be construed as within the structure of the government's charge to promote the general welfare. I think you would be promoting the ideals that it ascribes to, and not bashing those who see a different side of the coin.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;556670]Where have you been? They've already privatized the military. Wishing death on someone that isn't Bin Laden just makes you a jerk.[/quote]


I see your point about privatizing the military...we're not there yet but we're getting there.

I can't honestly say I would ever consider donating a kidney to Rushbo or Osama. These two inviduals who want America to fail aught to die a painful death don't you think?

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=steveo395;556671]I think it is hilarious that people say conservatives are the ones who are hateful and close-minded.

And its not like a $1.8 trillion dollar deficit is excessive or anything, where 46% of the budget is borrowed money. Lets solve our recession that was caused by borrowing too much money by borrowing a whole lot more money. That makes perfect sense.[/quote]


There's nothing funny about the truth. If it's not the gays, it's the Mexicans, if it's not the Mexicans it's the minorities, and if it's not the minorities it's the government.

Yeah, you should first talk to your boys in the GOP...they've singed off on every Bush bill and when he left office he left America a 1.3 trillion dollar annual deficit.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556675]There's nothing funny about the true. If it's not the gays, it's the Mexicans, if it's not the Mexicans it's the minorities, and if it's not the minorities it's the government.

Yeah, you should first talk to your boys in the GOP...they've singed off on every Bush bill and when he left office he left America a 1.3 trillion dollar annual deficit.[/quote]
Yea, except its not true. Sorry for wanting our laws enforced and the Constitution upheld.

And sorry, I don't have any boys in the GOP. The GOP sucks just like the democrats do. Bush was horrible when it came to spending and now Obama is making it even worse, but for some reason it is ok when Obama does it.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=saden1;556673]I see your point about privatizing the military...we're not there yet but we're getting there.

I can't honestly say I would ever consider donating a kidney to Rushbo or Osama. These two inviduals who want America to fail aught to die a painful death don't you think?[/quote]

You aught to be bright enough than to run with someone else's spin. Limbaugh said he wants Obama to fail. What's wrong with that? Didn't you want Bush to fail? If he had been a great president then we wouldn't have Obama. That idiot Sikes went and twisted it like Obama is America. So by wanting Obama to fail you then want America to fail? That makes no sense. If I wanted Bush to fail on some of his policies that means I didn't want Harriot Myers to be a Supreme Court Justice. That would've been bad for America. What's good for a politician isn't exactly good for the nation.

Re: the new health care?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;556672]Saden, still you seem swallowed up in this one.

I doubt any military person will tell you it is run efficiently. I can tell you from my experience, that having 30 people stand and look over several Humvees is not very efficient. As for fraud, I would refer back to the 5000 dollar toilet seat. Sure the military gets the job done, and remember THAT is specifically in the Constitution(not a standing army per se, but the defense of the nation), clearly it is not the same as nationalized health care.

I think if, as I assume, you are for National Healthcare, [B]than you would be able to acknowledge the obvious flaws, and point out your perceived benefits, that is that everyone would have some basic protection, and that could be construed as within the structure of the government's charge to promote the general welfare.[/B] I think you would be promoting the ideals that it ascribes to, and not bashing those who see a different side of the coin.[/quote]

This is what the [URL="http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec8"]Constitution says[/URL]:

[quote]The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and [B]provide for the common [SIZE=3]Defence[/SIZE] and general [/B][B][SIZE=3]Welfare[/SIZE] of the United States[/B]; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;[/quote]I think I have articulated my position on health care in the past. I know and understand that I can be a d*ck at times but I'm only a d*ck when it's warranted. These teabaggers aught to be [URL="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/16/10-most-offensive-tea-par_n_187554.html"]ashamed of themselves[/URL].