You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

After seeing many rants about the same tired old criticisms (Snyder sucks/Vinny sucks - very original), people faulting one player or one unit for the loss, I want to bring up an underlying issue that set the tone for our team's loss on Sunday...team discipline.

Santana Moss, our supposedly #1 WR got into an unnecessary scuffle that resulted in a 15 yrd penalty, which was luckily offset by the opponents PF.

Laron Landry seemed more focus on getting his revenge on Brandon Jacobs than playing the game, the result a 15 yrd. penalty.

Both Carter and Haynesworth had encroachment penalties. D. Hall had a block in the back penalty; Rogers had an illegal contact penalty; and Campbell had an illegal forward pass.

These are all starters, all players that have experience and talent, yet they committed these easily avoidable penalties. You add this to the questionable playcalling, being in a hostile environment, and add the other mental mistakes made by the team, that results in a whole team effort in the loss.

Penalties were an issue during the preseason, and I see that not much has changed. They need to get their act together on this.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

Good post!

Like I said in one thread, Zorn continue to shows inexperience coaching.. Someone really needs to wake him up.. I'm disappointed with Blache, he also underutilized his team.. Our D was weak; barely no QB pressures.. CBs continue to play soft, Landry is moving as if he is THE man, which is someone who he could be but he appears just doesn't get it.. All coaches need to sit down together and talk to each other; get everyone on same page and open it up..

Raiders just got Seymour few days ago, and already they are totally utilizing him.. He played all positions on the line.. We have Haynesworth, and not to mention Daniels who is big enough to be DT.. Carter, Haynesworth, Daniels (or Jarmon later in the season?), and Orakpo on passing downs, this should take care of it..

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Ruhskins;589340]After seeing many rants about the same tired old criticisms (Snyder sucks/Vinny sucks - very original), people faulting one player or one unit for the loss, I want to bring up an underlying issue that set the tone for our team's loss on Sunday...team discipline.

Santana Moss, our supposedly #1 WR got into an unnecessary scuffle that resulted in a 15 yrd penalty, which was luckily offset by the opponents PF.

Laron Landry seemed more focus on getting his revenge on Brandon Jacobs than playing the game, the result a 15 yrd. penalty.

Both Carter and Haynesworth had encroachment penalties. D. Hall had a block in the back penalty; Rogers had an illegal contact penalty; and Campbell had an illegal forward pass.

These are all starters, all players that have experience and talent, yet they committed these easily avoidable penalties. You add this to the questionable playcalling, being in a hostile environment, and add the other mental mistakes made by the team, that results in a whole team effort in the loss.

Penalties were an issue during the preseason, and I see that not much has changed. They need to get their act together on this.[/quote]

good post

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

We did have some costly penalties in the game but good teams find a way to over come them and pull out a win.
Moss was a no show and he could not beat 1on1 coverage of Jason Webster. He could have prevented the int when Campbell threw it passed the LOS. Im so dissapointed in Santana's like of immaturity and focus. Laron Landry is a far cry from Sean 21 Taylor. Chris Horton and Reed D. are decent against the run but are a liablity in pass coverage.
Our corners were playing soft and gave to much cushion to the G-Men WR. Fred Smoot missed a tackle on Manningham that lead to his TD. The D-Line played well against the run but the pass rush is still lacking. Phillip Daniels should not be starting at DE he just doesnt have the quickness N plays to stiff . He is better suited as a DT. We need to let Jarmon and C. Wilson play DE use Daniels more on the inside. Anyone have a take on that?

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Ruhskins;589340]After seeing many rants about the same tired old criticisms (Snyder sucks/Vinny sucks - very original), people faulting one player or one unit for the loss, I want to bring up an underlying issue that set the tone for our team's loss on Sunday...team discipline.

Santana Moss, our supposedly #1 WR got into an unnecessary scuffle that resulted in a 15 yrd penalty, which was luckily offset by the opponents PF.

Laron Landry seemed more focus on getting his revenge on Brandon Jacobs than playing the game, the result a 15 yrd. penalty.

Both Carter and Haynesworth had encroachment penalties. D. Hall had a block in the back penalty; Rogers had an illegal contact penalty; and Campbell had an illegal forward pass.

These are all starters, all players that have experience and talent, yet they committed these easily avoidable penalties. You add this to the questionable playcalling, being in a hostile environment, and add the other mental mistakes made by the team, that results in a whole team effort in the loss.

Penalties were an issue during the preseason, and I see that not much has changed. They need to get their act together on this.[/quote]

I like this post. You will hear the commentators of the Redskin's games say, "It all depends on which Redskins' team shows up". It doesn't matter who they're playing, where they're playing, or what commentator it is. I hear it all the time.

The Redskins need to show mental toughness 24/7 and they don't. I don't fault Haynesworth and Carter as much as Moss and Landry. Since Haynesworth has come here he's done what he's been asked to do. I wasn't crazy about him coming here but on Sunday he did his job. Stopping Brandon Jacobs on a goal line 4th and one is good to go in my book. Carter has, for the most part, acted like a professional since he's been here. The reason I put in the disclaimer is simple, I just can't remember him doing anything silly?

Moss and Landry are different birds. Moss should be benched or traded. I could care less if he's the so-called #1. So was TO, and Dallas is doing just fine without him. The other two got fooled. It happens. Moss is selfish and has a short temper. I don't need to explain why I say that. Everyone one has watched the games. Landry was thinking about himself not his team. He's overrated too IMO. What the secondary is doing now is what pissed me off about Shawn Taylor. He cared more about getting on the high-light reel than making the tackle. For every big hit he laid out two more plays scored touch downs. In Taylors defense, he started to get it. If he had more time to developed his mental toughness along with his talent, he would've been a HOFer, hands down. Moss on the other hand should know better. Landry needs to get it and quick.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Ruhskins;589340]After seeing many rants about the same tired old criticisms (Snyder sucks/Vinny sucks - very original), people faulting one player or one unit for the loss, I want to bring up an underlying issue that set the tone for our team's loss on Sunday...team discipline.

Santana Moss, our supposedly #1 WR got into an unnecessary scuffle that resulted in a 15 yrd penalty, which was luckily offset by the opponents PF.

Laron Landry seemed more focus on getting his revenge on Brandon Jacobs than playing the game, the result a 15 yrd. penalty.

Both Carter and Haynesworth had encroachment penalties. D. Hall had a block in the back penalty; Rogers had an illegal contact penalty; and Campbell had an illegal forward pass.

These are all starters, all players that have experience and talent, yet they committed these easily avoidable penalties. You add this to the questionable playcalling, being in a hostile environment, and add the other mental mistakes made by the team, that results in a whole team effort in the loss.

Penalties were an issue during the preseason, and I see that not much has changed. They need to get their act together on this.[/quote]

Excellent post. I completely agree. Players should be fined for every penalty in practice or in games as a way of creating greater discipline.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Lotus;589509]Excellent post. I completely agree. Players should be fined for every penalty in practice or in games as a way of creating greater discipline.[/quote]

or benched.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

Very well said Ruhskins!

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Ruhskins;589340]After seeing many rants about the same tired old criticisms (Snyder sucks/Vinny sucks - very original), people faulting one player or one unit for the loss, I want to bring up an underlying issue that set the tone for our team's loss on Sunday...team discipline.

Santana Moss, our supposedly #1 WR got into an unnecessary scuffle that resulted in a 15 yrd penalty, which was luckily offset by the opponents PF.

Laron Landry seemed more focus on getting his revenge on Brandon Jacobs than playing the game, the result a 15 yrd. penalty.

Both Carter and Haynesworth had encroachment penalties. D. Hall had a block in the back penalty; Rogers had an illegal contact penalty; and Campbell had an illegal forward pass.

These are all starters, all players that have experience and talent, yet they committed these easily avoidable penalties. You add this to the questionable playcalling, being in a hostile environment, and add the other mental mistakes made by the team, that results in a whole team effort in the loss.


Penalties were an issue during the preseason, and I see that not much has changed. They need to get their act together on this.[/quote]

I have a feeling that both encroachment penalties were the Redskins thinking they knew the snap count ala Woodson.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;589529]or benched.[/quote]

Correct. That is also a good solution.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

Great Post Ruh. The problem is no one in the organization has the balls to implement any kind of dicispline. My thought to this end is that Jim Zorn is trying so hard to constantly win the team over to his style of coaching that he lacks a certain amount of respect among the players. To that end he will not be able to practice good discipline when he is constantly trying to remain on the god side of his team. This is one fundamental flaw JZ has as a head coach.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

god=good.. once again I have made this mistake. :)

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Lotus;589509]Excellent post. I completely agree. Players should be fined for every penalty in practice or in games as a way of creating greater discipline.[/quote]


I like that idea, many coaches probably feel the same way, but the union would have a lot to say about that one.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

Excellent observation. I dont see Zorn being that type of disciplinary coach, and he seems like he has too much on his plate to worry about penalties. Blache seems like he will kick the defense's ass for their stupid mistakes and lack of focus. A couple of comments about Landry up above I see, which I think are appropriate. He needs to wrap up when he tackles and not lead with his head down.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;589546]Great Post Ruh. The problem is no one in the organization has the balls to implement any kind of dicispline. My thought to this end is that Jim Zorn is trying so hard to constantly win the team over to his style of coaching that he lacks a certain amount of respect among the players. To that end he will not be able to practice good discipline when he is constantly trying to remain on the god side of his team. This is one fundamental flaw JZ has as a head coach.[/quote]

I see it differently. This isn't a JZ problem. It's an organizational problem. There are a few players that have the ear of upper management IMO. I don't have proof, but this is what I've heard from past players. This is also how it appears to me.

Zorn should've been the man to stick foot to ass. He's more than capable of doing it. Have you noticed his demeanor this year? It's Mr. Nice Guy now. The fire is gone. Clinton Portis should've benched for talking trash about his coach. Santana Moss should've been fined and benched for punching that guy in the helmet. Did it happen?

It was the same way with Joe. Joe is a notorious coddler though. Look at the rat faced brat he has racing for him. I'm not bad mouthing Joe. He just very, Christian. That's who he is. He had to eat a lot of crow because of these players. That's why he's gone. Don't believe that BS about his grandson. He's out there with his race team all the time, February through November.

They could've had a foot to ass coach. He was actually the only person I think that wanted the job, Greg Williams. The point is upper management powder puffs the players. On Sundays that's who we see, softies. Not every player fits that mold, but too many do.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Longtimefan;589553]I like that idea, many coaches probably feel the same way, but the union would have a lot to say about that one.[/quote]

Fining players for penalties has been practiced before and I'll bet some squad is doing it now. At the end of the year the fine money is given to charity. Then it becomes hard for even the union to complain.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Ruhskins;589340]After seeing many rants about the same tired old criticisms (Snyder sucks/Vinny sucks - very original), people faulting one player or one unit for the loss, I want to bring up an underlying issue that set the tone for our team's loss on Sunday...team discipline.[/quote]

The criticisms of upper management that you call "tired" only seem that way to you because the long list of mistakes made by Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato are one of the few constants of Snyder's reign as the owner of the Redskins. Naturally, those of us who believe that it all starts at the top are going to bring this up over and over again because the issue never goes away. It is the elephant in the room and it cannot be ignored.

Let me ask you this. Does it make any sense to you whatsoever that Dan Snyder would hire Joe Gibbs to establish a culture of winning at Redskins Park by building a coaching staff, roster, and style of play that could be carried into the future and then, when Joe left, not hire someone from the Gibbs coaching tree to carry the work forward? I think that was a huge mistake by Snyder that made virtually everything that Gibbs did for the Redskins a waste of time and effort.

Having the foundation built for him by Joe Gibbs and then moving away from that by hiring someone from another coaching tree was an act of extreme hubris on Snyder's part. I remember that, when Gibbs left, Snyder was asked during a press conference what he learned from Joe Gibbs. After a long pause, he finally said "patience". The truth is he learned next to nothing.

Anything that goes wrong during Zorn's tenure is ultimately the fault of Dan Snyder because he's the man that blew up the foundation Joe Gibbs built for him.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

Well, you are delusional if you believe that Snyder is going away anytime soon. Unless there is an untimely death, he is here to stay. Owenership of the Reskins is not some political office that you get to vote for. You just have to suck it up and hope that someday that he puts it all together. With that being said, I believe that it is reasonable to expect more professionalism from those players on the field and the coaching regardless of who the owner of the team is.

As a coach you either have to make a decision, either get your players in line and keep your job or you can play kiss ass and lose it. As the old cliche goes if you want to make an omelet you have to break a few eggs. The coaching staff cannot be affraid of breaking some of Mr. Snyders prized eggs to serve him his omelet.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Angry;589622]Well, you are delusional if you believe that Snyder is going away anytime soon. Unless there is an untimely death, he is here to stay. Owenership of the Reskins is not some political office that you get to vote for. You just have to suck it up and hope that someday that he puts it all together. With that being said, I believe that it is reasonable to expect more professionalism from those players on the field and the coaching regardless of who the owner of the team is.

As a coach you either have to make a decision, either get your players in line and keep your job or you can play kiss ass and lose it. As the old cliche goes if you want to make an omelet you have to break a few eggs. The coaching staff cannot be affraid of breaking some of Mr. Snyders prized eggs to serve him his omelet.[/quote]

I wrote nothing to suggest that Snyder would ever go away or that I had any say in his tenure as the owner of the Redskins. You made that up all by yourself.

Where did you get the idea that Zorn is kissing the players' posteriors? I don't sense that. Besides, I don't see lack of discipline as Zorn's problem.

The primary problem for Zorn is that he is running a dinky offense that he makes worse with his atrocious play calling. The D played well enough to win but the O didn't get the job done.

Still, I can't blame Zorn too much. He's trying very hard. He can't help it that he's over his head in a job that he never should have been hired to do in the first place.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;589601]The criticisms of upper management that you call "tired" only seem that way to you because the long list of mistakes made by Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato are one of the few constants of Snyder's reign as the owner of the Redskins. Naturally, those of us who believe that it all starts at the top are going to bring this up over and over again because the issue never goes away. It is the elephant in the room and it cannot be ignored.

Let me ask you this. Does it make any sense to you whatsoever that Dan Snyder would hire Joe Gibbs to establish a culture of winning at Redskins Park by building a coaching staff, roster, and style of play that could be carried into the future and then, when Joe left, not hire someone from the Gibbs coaching tree to carry the work forward? I think that was a huge mistake by Snyder that made virtually everything that Gibbs did for the Redskins a waste of time and effort.

Having the foundation built for him by Joe Gibbs and then moving away from that by hiring someone from another coaching tree was an act of extreme hubris on Snyder's part. I remember that, when Gibbs left, Snyder was asked during a press conference what he learned from Joe Gibbs. After a long pause, he finally said "patience". The truth is he learned next to nothing.

Anything that goes wrong during Zorn's tenure is ultimately the fault of Dan Snyder because he's the man that blew up the foundation Joe Gibbs built for him.[/quote]

I think that the point is that Danny is with us to stay so complaining about him serves no purpose. We might as well find other things to talk about because ripping Danny, even if he merits it, is a pointless exercise.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=KI Skins Fan;589601]The criticisms of upper management that you call "tired" only seem that way to you because the long list of mistakes made by Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato are one of the few constants of Snyder's reign as the owner of the Redskins. Naturally, those of us who believe that it all starts at the top are going to bring this up over and over again because the issue never goes away. It is the elephant in the room and it cannot be ignored.

Let me ask you this. Does it make any sense to you whatsoever that Dan Snyder would hire Joe Gibbs to establish a culture of winning at Redskins Park by building a coaching staff, roster, and style of play that could be carried into the future and then, when Joe left, not hire someone from the Gibbs coaching tree to carry the work forward? I think that was a huge mistake by Snyder that made virtually everything that Gibbs did for the Redskins a waste of time and effort.

Having the foundation built for him by Joe Gibbs and then moving away from that by hiring someone from another coaching tree was an act of extreme hubris on Snyder's part. I remember that, when Gibbs left, Snyder was asked during a press conference what he learned from Joe Gibbs. After a long pause, he finally said "patience". The truth is he learned next to nothing.

Anything that goes wrong during Zorn's tenure is ultimately the fault of Dan Snyder because he's the man that blew up the foundation Joe Gibbs built for him.[/quote]

Well, a couple of points with this.

Many of the coaches did return after Gibbs left.

But I think what you're trying to say is why go with Zorn and the WCO as your head coach and offensive system? To which I would say, as much as I revere Joe Gibbs a) he didn't really leave us with any strong head coach (some would argue Gregg Williams, personally not a fan of his as a head coach) and b) even in Gibbs' four years the style of play was a bit inconsistent. 2004-Joe Gibbs mainly get his feet wet again, 2005-Gibbs brings Musgrave in to be the QB coach and Musgrave convinces Gibbs to start using the shotgun and add a little WCO flair (and we put up strong offensive numbers), 2006-Gibbs brings in Al Saunders (more similar to Gibbs than Musgrave, but still a bit more complex and pass happy), 2007-Gibbs reluctantly brings Saunders back.

So I guess the question is what style of play were we actually carrying over. And, interestingly enough, when Williams was coaching in Buffalo they ran a West Coast Offense. Personally I wish we still had Musgrave on the staff, but that's a topic for another time

I believe he has learned patience. I just hope that he's not patient just to show that he's patient. Meaning that if a change is needed at the end of this season we make that change. Not just continue as is to prove any point.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;589558]I see it differently. This isn't a JZ problem. It's an organizational problem. There are a few players that have the ear of upper management IMO. I don't have proof, but this is what I've heard from past players. This is also how it appears to me.

Zorn should've been the man to stick foot to ass. He's more than capable of doing it. Have you noticed his demeanor this year? It's Mr. Nice Guy now. The fire is gone. Clinton Portis should've benched for talking trash about his coach. Santana Moss should've been fined and benched for punching that guy in the helmet. Did it happen?

It was the same way with Joe. Joe is a notorious coddler though. Look at the rat faced brat he has racing for him. I'm not bad mouthing Joe. He just very, Christian. That's who he is. He had to eat a lot of crow because of these players. That's why he's gone. Don't believe that BS about his grandson. He's out there with his race team all the time, February through November.

They could've had a foot to ass coach. He was actually the only person I think that wanted the job, Greg Williams. The point is upper management powder puffs the players. On Sundays that's who we see, softies. Not every player fits that mold, but too many do.[/quote]

You maybe on to something here. Greg Williams a no non sense coach who would get in players ass.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

Interesting point...discipline.
Our players did not play in control. They appeared nervous, some played and acted like rookies.
I think Campbell, Moss and Hall's play best displayed it.
Campbell was having one of those frustrating days where the harder he tried the worse his performance got. Campbell seems to be not only battling the other team, he is battling himself. Campbell needs to occasionally have some fun on the field. Laugh a little. His ass hole is so tight during big games he couldn't shit a BB. Basic things like stepping up in the pocket, holding the ball higher and sensing the pass rush, all basic stuff went out the window. He needs to get laid before kick off. Something. Smoke a fatty. Something to relax that brain, he is thinking way too much.
Another basic fundamental tackling. Greg Williams (hate him or not) was the first person I thought of Sunday when I saw that pathetic display of tackling. That was the worst display of tackling I have seen on a Redskins defense since the Spurrier Days. What happened to wrapping up, tackling at the waist? This is all fundamentals and basic shit.
We have an incredibly talented defense. But why is that Blache can not disguise a blitz to save his life. It is almost like he tells the blitzing player, 'after you break the huddle run up to the line of scrimmage, jump up and down, stomp your feet and make the QB aware that you are blitzing.'
This was one game and we will rebound against the weaker teams.
However, if we are still playing like this in in week 7 against Philly or week 10 against the Cowboys, there is a bigger issue here than just early season jitters.

Re: You Win as a Team and You Lose as One - Discipline Issues
 

In Hall's defense, he did own up to not performing well. I watched the interview. He didn't just blow off or dismiss his lack of skill, like some of his other team mates have done in the past. There was no smile or BS attitude, he was strait faced and I he spoke English. I think he made the effort but he came up short as far as skill comes.