Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

I wanted to broach this topic in a non-partisan and intelligent way on the day of the eight year anniversary since the United States occupied Afghanistan. To be clear, let's get past bashing Bush for a moment and deal with the [I]present [/I]debate regarding the war on terror under the [I]current[/I] administration. This is now President Obama's war.

The United States is about to double down in Afghanistan and send an additional 40,000 troops there, and it seems the idea of actually capturing or being close to capturing Bin Laden isn't often discussed. He's no longer in our consciousness like he was during the aftermath of 9/11.

President Obama declared during the campaign that he would kill Osama (not related to Obama) if the opportunity presented itself. But here's the rub, in a study published online February 17 by the[I] MIT International Review[/I], the geographers report that simple facts, publicly available satellite imagery and fundamental principles of geography place the mastermind behind the Sept. 11 attacks against the U.S. in one of three buildings in the northwest Pakistan town of Parachinar, in the Kurram tribal region near the border with Afghanistan.

Now I'm not one easily, if ever, given to conspiracies but if the United States knows the general area where this son of bitch is located, why can't we just focus there? If we have the most capable intellingence and military personnel in the world, how come we can't get a whiff, some DNA, a hair fragment, a video machine, anything that let's us know Osama Bin Laden's whereabouts.

My question to you fellow Warpathers is, if we caught Bin Ladin tomorrow would you still be in favor of sending 40,000 troops into Afghanistan or at least drawing down? It seems to me that the government, and to an extent the media, has controlled the narrative and have done a good job continuing to justify and selling the war on terror; particularly in Afghanistan.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

12th I hear ya and I would love to partake in this discussion, but my beliefs, ideas, and theory's would turn some heads and even piss many people off. Needless to say I will be reading but not contributing. Good luck!

I will give you this, I am just glad that it is not my decision to have to make.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=Angry;603916]12th I hear ya and I would love to partake in this discussion, but my beliefs, ideas, and theory's would turn some heads and even piss many people off. Needless to say I will be reading but not contributing. Good luck!

I will give you this, I am just glad that it is not my decision to have to make.[/quote]

As your a military man(or were) I'd love to hear your opinion even if I end up disagreeing with it.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

Well let me see if I can kick this off with a couple of thoughts.

I think President Obama is determinded to go in Afghanistan no matter what. This is the one area where he has broad Republican support. The cynic in me wonders if he's so desperate to add a bi-partisan bullet point to his resume that he's leaning towards giving General McChrystal what he wants.

But I also wonder if he would flip on his promise if we magically come up with Bin Laden? I think public sentiment would sharply turn against us being there at that point. And the conspirosist in me wonders if we've long held off from capturing Bin Laden because of the politics of war.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=Angry;603916]12th I hear ya and I would love to partake in this discussion, but my beliefs, ideas, and theory's would turn some heads and even piss many people off. Needless to say I will be reading but not contributing. Good luck!

I will give you this, I am just glad that it is not my decision to have to make.[/quote]

Were you in the Marine Corp?

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

If I had my way everyone would know where Osama was. He's be in the radio-active dust cloud circling the globe.

There is basic tenant to warfare that was taught by Sun Tzu. Long protracted wars bankrupt countries and drain a nation's health.

This whole BS makes me sick. I think it's a lie. It stinks of money if you ask me. I find it awfully convenient that we're spending a lot of money to keep oil in the ground when China needs it the most. It's also convenient that the Chinese want to decouple oil prices with dollars.

This war that we're being shown is only a small part of the larger economic war that the West (& Russia) is fighting against China. When the West wants to ramp up the war, Iran will get lit up, not because of Nukes but to keep China from getting oil out of the Persian Gulf.

I don't believe anything that I hear on television or read in newspapers.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=12thMan;603910]I wanted to broach this topic in a non-partisan and intelligent way on the day of the eight year anniversary since the United States occupied Afghanistan. To be clear, let's get past bashing Bush for a moment and deal with the [I]present [/I]debate regarding the war on terror under the [I]current[/I] administration. This is now President Obama's war.

The United States is about to double down in Afghanistan and send an additional 40,000 troops there, and it seems the idea of actually capturing or being close to capturing Bin Laden isn't often discussed. He's no longer in our consciousness like he was during the aftermath of 9/11.

President Obama declared during the campaign that he would kill Osama (not related to Obama) if the opportunity presented itself. But here's the rub, in a study published online February 17 by the[I] MIT International Review[/I], the geographers report that simple facts, publicly available satellite imagery and fundamental principles of geography place the mastermind behind the Sept. 11 attacks against the U.S. in one of three buildings in the northwest Pakistan town of Parachinar, in the Kurram tribal region near the border with Afghanistan.

Now I'm not one easily, if ever, given to conspiracies but if the United States knows the general area where this son of bitch is located, why can't we just focus there? If we have the most capable intellingence and military personnel in the world, how come we can't get a whiff, some DNA, a hair fragment, a video machine, anything that let's us know Osama Bin Laden's whereabouts.

My question to you fellow Warpathers is, if we caught Bin Ladin tomorrow would you still be in favor of sending 40,000 troops into Afghanistan or at least drawing down? It seems to me that the government, and to [SIZE=4]an extent the media, has controlled the narrative and have done a good job continuing to justify and selling the war on terror; particularly in Afghanistan.[/quote][/SIZE]

I have actually seen more in the media asking the question if we should stay in Aghanistan then I have seen in support of building up even more troops.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

We're going to be in Afghanistan long term. This is way past Bin Laden at this point. Lots of problems in the region that aren't going away in our lifetimes. We will always be able to use the "instability" of the Afghan gov't as a justification to be there. Afghanistan is too strategic with everything going on in the region. Permanent presence there allows us to project firepower quickly where necessary.

Even if we wanted to leave the country would quickly destabilize and breed many more Bin Ladens. Another issue of major concern is the stability of Pakistan's nuclear weapons. We've seen Pakistan's government isn't exactly on rock solid ground either.

To your conspiracy theory, it definitely isn't outside the realm of possibility. Or another conspiracy theory is that he's already dead and these "tapes" that occasionally surface are fakes created by us.

from wiki:
As of July 2008, hundreds of millions of dollars were being spent on permanent infrastructure for foreign military bases in Afghanistan, including a budget of $780-million to further develop the infrastructure at just the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_Air_Field"][COLOR=#0000ff]Kandahar Air Field[/COLOR][/URL] base, described as "a walled, multicultural military city that houses some 13,000 troops from 17 different countries - the kind of place where you can eat at a Dutch chain restaurant alongside soldiers from the Royal Netherlands Army."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-NATO_Base_In_Afghanistan_Gets_Major_Expansion-180"][COLOR=#0000ff][181][/COLOR][/URL] The [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_Air_Base"][COLOR=#0000ff]Bagram Air Base[/COLOR][/URL], run by the U.S. military, was also expanding according to military officials, with the U.S military buying land from Afghan locals in different places for further expansion of the base.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-NATO_Base_In_Afghanistan_Gets_Major_Expansion-180"][COLOR=#0000ff][181][/COLOR][/URL]
As of January 2009, the U.S. had begun work on $1.6 billion of new, permanent military installations at [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar"][COLOR=#0000ff]Kandahar[/COLOR][/URL].[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-181"][COLOR=#0000ff][182][/COLOR][/URL]
In February 2009, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Times"][COLOR=#0000ff]The Times[/COLOR][/URL] reported that the U.S. will build two huge new military bases in southern Afghanistan.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-British_to_play_smaller_role_as_US_troops_fight_.E2.80.98losing_battle.E2.80.99-182"][COLOR=#0000ff][183][/COLOR][/URL] One will be built in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_province"][COLOR=#0000ff]Kandahar province[/COLOR][/URL] near the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmand"][COLOR=#0000ff]Helmand[/COLOR][/URL] border, at [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiwand"][COLOR=#0000ff]Maiwand[/COLOR][/URL] - a place famous as the site of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maiwand"][COLOR=#0000ff]destruction of a British army[/COLOR][/URL] during the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Afghan_War"][COLOR=#0000ff]Second Anglo-Afghan War[/COLOR][/URL]. The other new U.S. military base will be built in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabul"][COLOR=#0000ff]Zabul[/COLOR][/URL], a province now largely controlled by the Taliban and criminal gangs.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-British_to_play_smaller_role_as_US_troops_fight_.E2.80.98losing_battle.E2.80.99-182"][COLOR=#0000ff][183][/COLOR][/URL]
[B][SIZE=2]Geo-strategic military build-up[/SIZE][/B]

The dramatic build-up of an indefinite American/American-led military presence in Afghanistan has unsettled some regional powers, including Russia. However Russia has agreed to let the United States and NATO to use its airspace for logistical purposes[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-NATO_Base_In_Afghanistan_Gets_Major_Expansion-180"][COLOR=#0000ff][181][/COLOR][/URL]
"Is it all to fight a number of Taliban - 10,000, 12,000 Taliban?" Zamir Kabulov, Russia's ambassador to Kabul, has questioned. "Maybe this infrastructure, military infrastructure, [is] not only for internal purposes but for regional also."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-NATO_Base_In_Afghanistan_Gets_Major_Expansion-180"][COLOR=#0000ff][181][/COLOR][/URL]
Russia views the large and indefinite military build-up as a potential threat "because Afghanistan's geographical location is a very strategic one," Kabulov said. "It's very close to three main world basins of hydrocarbons: Persian Gulf, Caspian Sea, Central Asia." [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-NATO_Base_In_Afghanistan_Gets_Major_Expansion-180"][COLOR=#0000ff][181][/COLOR][/URL]
Other observers have also noted that through a stronger military presence in Afghanistan, the U.S. may be seeking to strengthen its own position in the region to counter increasingly warm relations among India, China and Russia.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-Karzai_Hints_at_Permanent_U.S._Military_Basing-179"][COLOR=#0000ff][180][/COLOR][/URL]
Along with its proximity to the vast Central Asian and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea"][COLOR=#0000ff]Caspian Sea[/COLOR][/URL] energy sources and being in the midsts of the regional powers of India, China, and Russia, Afghanistan also holds strategic significance given its border with Iran.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-Afghan_riots_bode_ill_for_US_long-term_plans-178"][COLOR=#0000ff][179][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-Permanent_U.S._bases.3F_Afghans_see_an_election_issue-183"][COLOR=#0000ff][184][/COLOR][/URL]

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;603937]We're going to be in Afghanistan long term. This is way past Bin Laden at this point. Lots of problems in the region that aren't going away in our lifetimes. We will always be able to use the "instability" of the Afghan gov't as a justification to be there. Afghanistan is too strategic with everything going on in the region. Permanent presence there allows us to project firepower quickly where necessary.

Even if we wanted to leave the country would quickly destabilize and breed many more Bin Ladens. Another issue of major concern is the stability of Pakistan's nuclear weapons. We've seen Pakistan's government isn't exactly on rock solid ground either.

To your conspiracy theory, it definitely isn't outside the realm of possibility. Or another conspiracy theory is that he's already dead and these "tapes" that occasionally surface are fakes created by us.

from wiki:
As of July 2008, hundreds of millions of dollars were being spent on permanent infrastructure for foreign military bases in Afghanistan, including a budget of $780-million to further develop the infrastructure at just the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_Air_Field"][COLOR=#0000ff]Kandahar Air Field[/COLOR][/URL] base, described as "a walled, multicultural military city that houses some 13,000 troops from 17 different countries - the kind of place where you can eat at a Dutch chain restaurant alongside soldiers from the Royal Netherlands Army."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-NATO_Base_In_Afghanistan_Gets_Major_Expansion-180"][COLOR=#0000ff][181][/COLOR][/URL] The [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_Air_Base"][COLOR=#0000ff]Bagram Air Base[/COLOR][/URL], run by the U.S. military, was also expanding according to military officials, with the U.S military buying land from Afghan locals in different places for further expansion of the base.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-NATO_Base_In_Afghanistan_Gets_Major_Expansion-180"][COLOR=#0000ff][181][/COLOR][/URL]
As of January 2009, the U.S. had begun work on $1.6 billion of new, permanent military installations at [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar"][COLOR=#0000ff]Kandahar[/COLOR][/URL].[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-181"][COLOR=#0000ff][182][/COLOR][/URL]
In February 2009, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Times"][COLOR=#0000ff]The Times[/COLOR][/URL] reported that the U.S. will build two huge new military bases in southern Afghanistan.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-British_to_play_smaller_role_as_US_troops_fight_.E2.80.98losing_battle.E2.80.99-182"][COLOR=#0000ff][183][/COLOR][/URL] One will be built in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_province"][COLOR=#0000ff]Kandahar province[/COLOR][/URL] near the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmand"][COLOR=#0000ff]Helmand[/COLOR][/URL] border, at [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiwand"][COLOR=#0000ff]Maiwand[/COLOR][/URL] - a place famous as the site of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maiwand"][COLOR=#0000ff]destruction of a British army[/COLOR][/URL] during the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Afghan_War"][COLOR=#0000ff]Second Anglo-Afghan War[/COLOR][/URL]. The other new U.S. military base will be built in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabul"][COLOR=#0000ff]Zabul[/COLOR][/URL], a province now largely controlled by the Taliban and criminal gangs.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-British_to_play_smaller_role_as_US_troops_fight_.E2.80.98losing_battle.E2.80.99-182"][COLOR=#0000ff][183][/COLOR][/URL]
[B][SIZE=2]Geo-strategic military build-up[/SIZE][/B]

The dramatic build-up of an indefinite American/American-led military presence in Afghanistan has unsettled some regional powers, including Russia. However Russia has agreed to let the United States and NATO to use its airspace for logistical purposes[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-NATO_Base_In_Afghanistan_Gets_Major_Expansion-180"][COLOR=#0000ff][181][/COLOR][/URL]
"Is it all to fight a number of Taliban - 10,000, 12,000 Taliban?" Zamir Kabulov, Russia's ambassador to Kabul, has questioned. "Maybe this infrastructure, military infrastructure, [is] not only for internal purposes but for regional also."[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-NATO_Base_In_Afghanistan_Gets_Major_Expansion-180"][COLOR=#0000ff][181][/COLOR][/URL]
Russia views the large and indefinite military build-up as a potential threat "because Afghanistan's geographical location is a very strategic one," Kabulov said. "It's very close to three main world basins of hydrocarbons: Persian Gulf, Caspian Sea, Central Asia." [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-NATO_Base_In_Afghanistan_Gets_Major_Expansion-180"][COLOR=#0000ff][181][/COLOR][/URL]
Other observers have also noted that through a stronger military presence in Afghanistan, the U.S. may be seeking to strengthen its own position in the region to counter increasingly warm relations among India, China and Russia.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-Karzai_Hints_at_Permanent_U.S._Military_Basing-179"][COLOR=#0000ff][180][/COLOR][/URL]
Along with its proximity to the vast Central Asian and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea"][COLOR=#0000ff]Caspian Sea[/COLOR][/URL] energy sources and being in the midsts of the regional powers of India, China, and Russia, Afghanistan also holds strategic significance given its border with Iran.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-Afghan_riots_bode_ill_for_US_long-term_plans-178"][COLOR=#0000ff][179][/COLOR][/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)#cite_note-Permanent_U.S._bases.3F_Afghans_see_an_election_issue-183"][COLOR=#0000ff][184][/COLOR][/URL][/quote]

Your making my arguement stronger.

[url=http://theoilcard.com/]The Oil Card - Global Economic Warfare in the 21st Century, by Jim Norman[/url]

Believe what you want. This war isn't about freedom or any of that "Mom & Apple Pie" BS the media spews.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;603943]Your making my arguement stronger.

[URL="http://theoilcard.com/"]The Oil Card - Global Economic Warfare in the 21st Century, by Jim Norman[/URL]

Believe what you want. [B]This war isn't about freedom or any of that "Mom & Apple Pie" BS the media spews[/B].[/quote]I'm not disagreeing with you, oil, control of nukes, shutting down future terrorist training grounds, China, Russia, Iran it's all in play here.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

Great points SS33 and Trample . As far as leaving Afganistan if Bin Laden is killed, I doubt we leave anytime soon as SS33 pointed out . I would add , if you saw a rat in your house , it's a good bet it is not the only one , you do not kill just one as they breed like crazy. Oil .... interesting read [url=http://geology.com/news/2007/enormous-oil-seepage-in-the-gulf-of-mexico.shtml]Enormous Oil Seepage in the Gulf of Mexico | Geology.com[/url] . Should we send the 40,000 troops , hope all Americans back the President and our young men and women serving our country.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=budw38;603959]Great points SS33 and Trample . As far as leaving Afganistan if Bin Laden is killed, I doubt we leave anytime soon as SS33 pointed out . I would add , if you saw a rat in your house , it's a good bet it is not the only one , you do not kill just one as they breed like crazy. Oil .... interesting read [url=http://geology.com/news/2007/enormous-oil-seepage-in-the-gulf-of-mexico.shtml]Enormous Oil Seepage in the Gulf of Mexico | Geology.com[/url] . Should we send the 40,000 troops , hope all Americans back the President and our young men and women serving our country.[/quote]

We do what we can.

[url=http://www.pva.org/site/PageServer]Paralyzed Veterans of America: Paralyzed Veterans of America Home[/url]

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;603960]We do what we can.

[URL="http://www.pva.org/site/PageServer"]Paralyzed Veterans of America: Paralyzed Veterans of America Home[/URL][/quote]
Thanks for the link , we can all help a little .

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

Everyone has brought up good points. Essentially it all comes down to oil. The region (Afghanistan is a good example) is simply an unstable region. Very factional and culturally difficult to control. We only care about the region because of oil, they only dislike us because of things we have done because of oil, we're only there because of oil. It all comes back to oil. It is why the energy policy of our nation is of such importance. Forget all the crunchy-granola peace-pipe propaganda about the climate...plain and simple oil is going to put our country in its grave if we don't figure out how to not need it.

As for Afghanistan, the biggest mistake that's been made, and the same error made in Iraq, was the definition of our goals. Dumdum Bush and his administration had this ridiculous notion that they could sell a war in the middle east as a simple national security issue.One that could be solved via toppling of a few despots in the region and some mild rebuilding. Voila! Stability. In fact the stability of the region, by our definition and for our own benefit, will only come from a protracted presence of our own troops. This has always been the case. There never was a magic bullet strategy for going in, doing the job and getting out. The JOB is to be there. Removing the Taliban was th easy excuse but ultimately bullcrap. It was simply step one in a decades long list of things we need to do there. That's what we committed ourselves to with the first bullet. Decades. Most Americans didn't know this but our politicians, Dems and Reps both, sure knew it. And if there were a few that didn't then they're dumdum donkey idiots. If we're going to be there, and we can't leave, then we need to send every single troop that's needed. I'd rather we send an extra 40k, 100k or a million if we had it and cut down the casualties. Otherwise we're stuck executing Rumsfeld's ill-fated strategy of light and fast which as we've found out actually means half-assed and dangerously.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=FRPLG;603968]..... [B]I'd rather we send an extra 40k, 100k or a million if we had it and cut down the casualties....[/B].[/quote]If we're sending more troops (which i have no problem with if they have a defined short-term mission) the higher ups and civilian leadership (SECDEF, Congress) need to make the rules of engagement such that we protect our kids rather than leave them under fire for fear of injuring civilians.

[URL="http://hamptonroads.com/2009/09/oceana-pilots-face-new-restrictions-afghanistan?page=2"]Oceana pilots face new restrictions in Afghanistan | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com[/URL]

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=FRPLG;603968]Everyone has brought up good points. Essentially it all comes down to oil. The region (Afghanistan is a good example) is simply an unstable region. Very factional and culturally difficult to control. We only care about the region because of oil, they only dislike us because of things we have done because of oil, we're only there because of oil. It all comes back to oil. It is why the energy policy of our nation is of such importance. Forget all the crunchy-granola peace-pipe propaganda about the climate...plain and simple oil is going to put our country in its grave if we don't figure out how to not need it.

As for Afghanistan, the biggest mistake that's been made, and the same error made in Iraq, was the definition of our goals. Dumdum Bush and his administration had this ridiculous notion that they could sell a war in the middle east as a simple national security issue.One that could be solved via toppling of a few despots in the region and some mild rebuilding. Voila! Stability. In fact the stability of the region, by our definition and for our own benefit, will only come from a protracted presence of our own troops. This has always been the case. There never was a magic bullet strategy for going in, doing the job and getting out. The JOB is to be there. Removing the Taliban was th easy excuse but ultimately bullcrap. It was simply step one in a decades long list of things we need to do there. That's what we committed ourselves to with the first bullet. Decades. Most Americans didn't know this but our politicians, Dems and Reps both, sure knew it. And if there were a few that didn't then they're dumdum donkey idiots. If we're going to be there, and we can't leave, then we need to send every single troop that's needed. I'd rather we send an extra 40k, 100k or a million if we had it and cut down the casualties. Otherwise we're stuck executing Rumsfeld's ill-fated strategy of light and fast which as we've found out actually means half-assed and dangerously.[/quote]
How much oil is in Afganistan ? If we only cared for oil , why haven't we stopped supporting Isreal , if we let the Islamic countries in that region destroy Isreal we would have $ 10 barrels of oil . So by your account , even if AL Qaeda / Bin Laden run terror camps out of New Zealand , Bush would have set our troops to Afgan'st ? We were in Iraq / Kuwait in 1991 , how much oil have we taken in almost 20 years ? I'm not saying oil , like any commodity does not have an effect on policy , but in this case I think thats a stretch . After 9-11 , are you suggesting we should have done nothing , thinking they would not try a more deadly attack , just asking ?

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

Well I say its more of a fight of power then oil. If we sat back and let nations like China or Russia gain too much control of the oil then we are in deap shit. We can come up with all the clean energy we want (which does help) but we cannot protect ourself with out oil. I can't see troops stopping to plug in their tanks before advancing.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=firstdown;603980]Well I say its more of a fight of power then oil. If we sat back and let nations like China or Russia gain too much control of the oil then we are in deap shit. We can come up with all the clean energy we want (which does help) but we cannot protect ourself with out oil. I can't see troops stopping to plug in their tanks before advancing.[/quote]
Are you trying to say we can't put solar panels on a tank and power it ? Guys , not to change the subject , but don't be shocked if the day comes where wars are fought over water .... just saying

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=budw38;603979]How much oil is in Afganistan ? If we only cared for oil , why haven't we stopped supporting Isreal , if we let the Islamic countries in that region destroy Isreal we would have $ 10 barrels of oil . So by your account , even if AL Qaeda / Bin Laden run terror camps out of New Zealand , Bush would have set our troops to Afgan'st ? We were in Iraq / Kuwait in 1991 , how much oil have we taken in almost 20 years ? I'm not saying oil , like any commodity does not have an effect on policy , but in this case I think thats a stretch . After 9-11 , are you suggesting we should have done nothing , thinking they would not try a more deadly attack , just asking ?[/quote]

There were several gas lines scheduled to run through Afghanistan. Central Asia is the big up and coming spot for oil and natural gas.

Fire Plug seems to be on a somewhat similar understanding of what I and many others have said. It's not just about oil. It's about de-balling the new up and coming threat, China.

Israel isn't important. Why our government supports them is beyond me? The cynical part of me says Jewish votes. I'm no expert? I have no opinion on the matter. I'd rather be tighter with Egypt and Turkey. They probably already have nukes too.

I don't believe what the politicians say, only what they do. There isn't much of a difference in policy regarding oil as a weapon since it was discovered. We control the price and distribution, we win.

What is being done to China now is what was done to Russia in reverse. Russia decided it was more profitable to play on the side of the big dogs. When gasoline goes up to 4$ dollars a gallon the Russians smile and the Chinese cringe.

I don't buy this war on terrorism garbage anymore. If we wanted the Taliban dead, they'd be dead. If Pakistan wanted them dead, they'd be dead. We're being fed sound bites that nice little girls and boys can get behind. The big boys know better.

Consider this: Chinese currency is valued based off of the dollar. They devalue their currency to make their imports cheap. The spend twice as much for oil. The price of oil is based on dollars. The reserve currency of the world is American dollars. Our major allies and proxies are oil rich: Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Canada, Russia, Kuwait, and a myriad of others. China has next to nothing in oil. Chinese oil infrastucture is inferior. It takes more oil for them to produce energy and they have a hard time burning high sulfur oil. They have to buy light sweet.

This is how nuclear armed superpowers fight, through proxies. It's no different than when we fought the Russians. We never went toe to toe. We faught their proxies: N.Korea, China (not yet a nuclear power), Vietnam, FMLN, Cuba, and all the others we never heard of.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

Trample i agree with most of your points . Of course we are not fighting an Army in Afganistan < like we did in WW2 > . We could destroy the Taliban/ al qaeda if we destroyed the country , massive bombing , which would result in mass civilian deaths . I think that is the main reason they have not been put out of commision . We are not at war with a country , but a movement < ideology > , where the enemy is global . Not disputing what you said . I guess I look at the Oil part this way , if we wanted to , we could have taken it from Kuwait and Iraq in 91 if . Isreal , I'm just making a point , if we had stopped supporting Isreal ... say in 1972 , the Arab nations that make up OPEC would have no reason to hate us , thus making them willing to trade /sell oil at lower levels . I would almost be in favor of hitting the middle east with nukes like we did Japan , but I would rather not . As far as Nat. Gas , we have plenty , and I think Russia supplies Europe Nat. Gas , as Russia has a vast suppy . If you and some of the others are correct , Brazil better become our friends or they might be at war with us next ...[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/19/world/americas/19braziloil.html[/url] as they have ... maybe larger oil fields than Saudia Arabia [url=http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&refer=news&sid=arYFojM6udEI]Petrobras' Tupi Oil Field May Hold 8 Billion Barrels (Update6) - Bloomberg.com[/url]

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;604019]
Israel isn't important. Why our government supports them is beyond me? The cynical part of me says Jewish votes. I'm no expert? I have no opinion on the matter. I'd rather be tighter with Egypt and Turkey. They probably already have nukes too.

[/quote]

I think we will find out in the next few years that Israel is extremely important. And I suspect that a good many things are "beyond you." Unfortunately, you still bloviate about them, and at length.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=budw38;603979]How much oil is in Afganistan ? If we only cared for oil , why haven't we stopped supporting Isreal , if we let the Islamic countries in that region destroy Isreal we would have $ 10 barrels of oil . So by your account , even if AL Qaeda / Bin Laden run terror camps out of New Zealand , Bush would have set our troops to Afgan'st ? We were in Iraq / Kuwait in 1991 , how much oil have we taken in almost 20 years ? I'm not saying oil , like any commodity does not have an effect on policy , but in this case I think thats a stretch . After 9-11 , are you suggesting we should have done nothing , thinking they would not try a more deadly attack , just asking ?[/quote]

We can't just care about the oil countries. The entire region has to be minded for the sake o our oil. Don't confuse me with a peacenik no more war or oil type. I am simply pointing out the obvious. We do next to nothing in Africa when tribal wars erupt and millions die...they have no oil. The middle east though of course does and we're constantly embattled there now.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

Afghanistan has no significant oil, or any natural resources other than smack, and our presence over there is not related to procuring oil or anything else. Had they not attacked us on 9/11 we would not have invaded (as opposed to Iraq, the plans for the occupation of which go back to the Clinton administration). Although FRPLG is partly right when he says that we made a commitment to staying there upon the firing of the first shot. That is not necessarily true, but if we are to see the mission through to its conclusion - which at this point I understand to be the emergence of a stable functioning democracy - it will take several years (decades even) and several hundred thousand more troops. Indeed, current counterinsurgency theory suggests that 1 soldier is needed for every 50 civilians in order to successfully pacify a population, which would put our troop requirement there at well north of 500 thousand. Given that the political will doesn’t exist for that kind of commitment, a much more protracted, and probably ineffective American presence there is likely.

But let's talk about what this war is really about. It's certainly not about oil. We'd get about as much oil invading the Bahamas, and I don't buy the leftist conspiracy theories that the war is about protecting pipelines either. That makes no sense. You don't spend billions and billions in resources to preserve what amounts to a drop in the bucket of the global oil supply. But it's not about Bin Laden either, who as 12th pointed out, probably isn't even in the country any more, and at this point is nothing more than a figurehead within Al Qaeda.

It's about that nuclear armed behemoth to the south, whose crippled government is hanging by a thread with an internal insurgency miles from the capital and ready to step on its throat. Were Afghanistan to destabilize, or were its radical Islamist forces left without anyone to fight, they would be sure to further destabilize Pakistan in turn. We can't have this. Moreover, by building a permanent American military presence over there, as we are currently doing, we give ourselves access to Pakistan should things take a turn for the worse.

I have to believe everything else is peripheral at this point. So in answer to the question, who cares. Killing Obama would be a huge story in America's dumbed down sound bite culture, but it wouldn't amount to a damn thing.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

The shortest distance between two points is a [URL="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3562/3292775161_fab90b095b.jpg"]straight line and having control of those lines[/URL]. Don't be fooled, Afghanistan is a [URL="http://web.archive.org/web/20021210163358/http://www.house.gov/international_relations/105th/ap/wsap212982.htm"]major player in oil and gas transport[/URL].

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=70Chip;604052]I think we will find out in the next few years that Israel is extremely important. And I suspect that a good many things are "beyond you." Unfortunately, you still bloviate about them, and at length.[/quote]

Please enlighten me what is so important about Isreal? Bloviate? Perhaps you would be so good as to offer counter points?

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=70Chip;604052]I think we will find out in the next few years that Israel is extremely important. And I suspect that a good many things are "beyond you." Unfortunately, you still bloviate about them, and at length.[/quote]

Lord knows I'm no fan of TTL but on this one his take is more rational than yours. Don't hold your breath, the rapture won't be coming any time soon.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=FRPLG;604053]We can't just care about the oil countries. The entire region has to be minded for the sake o our oil. Don't confuse me with a peacenik no more war or oil type. I am simply pointing out the obvious. We do next to nothing in Africa when tribal wars erupt and millions die...they have no oil. The middle east though of course does and we're constantly embattled there now.[/quote]
I don't disagree with your points , nor would I judge you< as peacenik >, or anything else . As far as tribal wars in Africa , again you are correct , but I suspect if Sudan or Somalia were to be the stomping ground for Bin Laden we would have gone there ? Nice post ,,, have a good night .

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=saden1;604061]The shortest distance between two points is a [URL="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3562/3292775161_fab90b095b.jpg"]straight line and having control of those lines[/URL]. Don't be fooled, Afghanistan is a [URL="http://web.archive.org/web/20021210163358/http://www.house.gov/international_relations/105th/ap/wsap212982.htm"]major player in oil and gas transport[/URL].[/quote]

Thank you Saden. You may be arrogant but at least you're not stupid.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=budw38;604064]I don't disagree with your points , nor would I judge you< as peacenik >, or anything else . As far as tribal wars in Africa , again you are correct , but I suspect if Sudan or Somalia were to be the stomping ground for Bin Laden we would have gone there ? Nice post ,,, have a good night .[/quote]

Don't forget Nigeria and Executive Outcomes.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

Nice post DJ65 . Not sure about dumbed down culture . We all know that just killing one man is not the end of a war /movement or jihad . Truth is Bin laden is a recuiter , hero and god to many in the middle east , I do hope we kill him , and wouldn't lose sleep in we took Chavez , Akmandingleberryzahd < Iran > out in the middle of the night .

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;604065]Thank you Saden. [B]You may be arrogant[/B] but at least you're not stupid.[/quote]

Nah, I just don't believe in humility especially when it isn't aligned with my self-interest.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

The funny thing about this thread is the improper wording. By the title we assume that we have failed to capture Osama Bin Laden and bring him to justice. On the contrary if people learned to properly spin this they would realize that we have him in captive in one giant prison with standards that are even worse then our own prison system. The Prison I'm talking about is Afghanastan. I mean for gods sake most of the country doesn't even have drinkable water. In fact it's basically a medieval country with guns. This is a place that the NDHR called the " Fifth least developed [I]country in the world[/I]."

Think about it if he's lucky he'll get captured by us. In the meantime he lives running from cave to cave while we shoot his comrades in one of the worst countries on the face of the Earth.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;604149]The funny thing about this thread is the improper wording. By the title we assume that we have failed to capture Osama Bin Laden and bring him to justice. On the contrary if people learned to properly spin this they would realize that we have him in captive in one giant prison with standards that are even worse then our own prison system. The Prison I'm talking about is Afghanastan. I mean for gods sake most of the country doesn't even have drinkable water. In fact it's basically a medieval country with guns. This is a place that the NDHR called the " Fifth least developed [I]country in the world[/I]."

Think about it if he's lucky he'll get captured by us. In the meantime he lives running from cave to cave while we shoot his comrades in one of the worst countries on the face of the Earth.[/quote]

Wow. I think you summed this up for me really well.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

I have thought about the living conditions bin-laden and his band of goons are living under . However , I would love to bring his ass back to the good ol USA and show all of his worshippers that he is not god like . Great thread , nice not to see blaming and bickering .

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;604149]The funny thing about this thread is the improper wording. By the title we assume that we have failed to capture Osama Bin Laden and bring him to justice. On the contrary if people learned to properly spin this they would realize that we have him in captive in one giant prison with standards that are even worse then our own prison system. The Prison I'm talking about is Afghanastan. I mean for gods sake most of the country doesn't even have drinkable water. In fact it's basically a medieval country with guns. This is a place that the NDHR called the " Fifth least developed [I]country in the world[/I]."

Think about it if he's lucky he'll get captured by us. In the meantime he lives running from cave to cave while we shoot his comrades in one of the worst countries on the face of the Earth.[/quote]

Utter nonsense. You have no idea where he is and even worse you speak of what he aught to find pleasurable. Not all men derive pleasure from running water nor are luxuries and desires of this world perceived the same by all. Osama bin Laden walked away from a billion dollar empire and choose this gorilla/terrorist life. He is a free man and he is free to plot and kill Americans...and so long as that's the case the cage you speak of is nonexistent.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=saden1;604226]Utter nonsense. You have no idea where he is and even worse you speak of what he aught to find pleasurable. Not all men derive pleasure from running water nor are luxuries and desires of this world perceived the same by all. Osama bin Laden walked away from a billion dollar empire and choose this gorilla/terrorist life. He is a free man and he is free to plot and kill Americans...and so long as that's the case the cage you speak of is nonexistent.[/quote]

I am agreeing with Saden, and disagreeing with Dirtbag, wow I must have gone through the transporter during an electrical storm!

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;604242]I am agreeing with Saden, and disagreeing with Dirtbag, wow I must have gone through the transporter during an electrical storm![/quote]

It's a strange world when we agree with Saden. There were a bunch of stupid twirps in college that tried to make it into a have and have not arguement. If Bin Laden had wanted to he could have turned Afghanistan into a paradise. He had the money and the connections. He chose to make it into a terrorist training camp.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;604246]It's a strange world when we agree we Saden. There were a bunch of stupid twirps in college that tried to make it into a have and have not arguement. If Bin Laden had wanted to he could have turned Afghanistan into a paradise. He had the money and the connections. He chose to make it into a terrorist training camp.[/quote]

Awww, I'm feeling all the love guys.


Nah, Osama was a freedom fighter when we were helping him fight the Soviets. Of course the Soviets thought he was a terrorist. For some time he actually did good building roads and schools and shit in Afghanistan...then he got bored, found a new enemy and turned terrorist on us.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

[quote=saden1;604226]Utter nonsense. You have no idea where he is and even worse you speak of what he aught to find pleasurable. Not all men derive pleasure from running water nor are luxuries and desires of this world perceived the same by all. Osama bin Laden walked away from a billion dollar empire and choose this gorilla/terrorist life. He is a free man and he is free to plot and kill Americans...and so long as that's the case the cage you speak of is nonexistent.[/quote]

True, he walked away from billions but he didn't walk away from the public spotlight. Which tells me, to some extent, Bin Laden absolutely cares about the desires of this world, as twisted and sinister as they may be. No, he may not give a shit about running water or ESPN, but in his own way I think he's concerned about his image and the perception he has around the world. He strikes me as a man that is self absorbed. This is not your run of the mill suicide bomber or attention seeker. In fact, he just might be the biggest coward of all.

Sure he's free, I suppose. But is his definition of freedom the same right now as it was eight years ago? And as long as we're keeping score, Bin Laden hasn't inflicted harm on Americans in eight years; knock on wood.

Re: Eight Long Years: Where Is Osama Bin Laden?
 

Isn't Bin Laden a Whitney fan? He must be pissed he can't get her new album out in the caves