Campbell Comparables
 

Decided to start a new Campbell thread since the OP in the "Campbell's numbers don't lie" thread is now 6 weeks old, and no one is going to read through 1,000 posts.

Bill Barnwell at FO provides us this PFR query for Jason Campbell's season, based on the explosion of his sack rate. He compares Campbell's numbers to the 17 closest seasons in the last thirty years.

The link is here:

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/WnSlC"]Player Season Finder Query Results | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL]

Barnwell's analysis is here:

[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2009/jason-campbells-sack-rate]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Jason Campbell's Sack Rate[/url]

The most interesting thing is the two closest seasons to the season Campbell is having now, out of every QB season in the last 30 years, were Ben Roethlisberger's worst two seasons. There's little doubt that Roethlisberger is seeing downfield right now a lot better than Campbell is, but I'm not sure that's always been the case.

Question is, exactly how did the Steelers get that offense to where they are right now? And how can the Redskins prevent this situation from finishing out as bad as it started.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

regardless of how many pro- Campbell post are out there, Jason doesn't make the best decisions during the course of the game and cannot lead his team to victory. He is a better manager, than a leader. Right now the Redskins need a leader.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

The other thread is still alive and well...it's 6-weeks old because it's going to be an ongoing thread for the entire season.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

I thought JC had his best game in weeks on sunday. A few times in the first half he had his head down while moving in the pocket. They even commented on it in the booth. But he was under crazy pressure. He settled down & made some nice plays. His accuracy was about as good as it's been all year.

I'm not expecting much, but if Buges et al can keep the fire lit under the o line like they did in the 2nd half sunday, I think JC will play well. I was very impressed w/him sunday, he showed a lot of heart & poise to play the way he did after getting sacked 5 times.

I wonder if the new o line w/Jones at Lt, Heyer at RT will be an improvement?

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

I haven't heard anyone say that Campbell did poorly against Atlanta; only that it's too little too late at this point.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=diehardskin2982;623362]regardless of how many pro- Campbell post are out there, Jason doesn't make the best decisions during the course of the game and cannot lead his team to victory. He is a better manager, than a leader. Right now the Redskins need a leader.[/quote]

Exactly. Zero in the leadership department. A complete flushing out of the offense is what we need. Bye Bye JC!!!!

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=Chico23231;623384]Exactly. Zero in the leadership department. A complete flushing out of the offense is what we need. Bye Bye JC!!!![/quote]

Actually if we had a running game and our defense would be as elite as we pay them, then we would be fine with a game manager.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=GTripp0012;623372]I haven't heard anyone say that Campbell did poorly against Atlanta; only that it's too little too late at this point.[/quote]

That certainly is the sentiment at this point. I don't know that I would count him out entirely yet. If he plays well & the offense gets going (relatively speaking), it could make for a tough decision in the offseason. What if he plays like the 6-2 run of last year?

At this point it's highly likely that a qb is brought in via draft or free agency in 10, but that doesn't have to mean that JC is out. I agree that it's likely, but I could also see a new coach and/or GM keeping him here to compete for the job. The cba will have a lot to do w/it I think.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=freddyg12;623368]I thought JC had his best game in weeks on sunday. A few times in the first half he had his head down while moving in the pocket. They even commented on it in the booth. But he was under crazy pressure. He settled down & made some nice plays. His accuracy was about as good as it's been all year.

I'm not expecting much, but if Buges et al can keep the fire lit under the o line like they did in the 2nd half sunday, I think JC will play well. I was very impressed w/him sunday, he showed a lot of heart & poise to play the way he did after getting sacked 5 times.

I wonder if the new o line w/Jones at Lt, Heyer at RT will be an improvement?[/quote]

I did too. I was impressed. It's hard to criticize him when he's getting pummeled the way he is, BUT he wasn't under duress the first 4 games of the season. It wasn't until Samuels went down that the line broke-down completely. In terms of sacks, he was in the bottom third of all starters after 4 games. And even during the 6-2 start last year, when the running game was best in the league, and he was getting ample time he only threw 8 TDs (16 TD pace).

The names on GTRIPPs list, Elway, Jaworski, Big Ben, Simms, etc. may have have performed comparably when they had similar sack totals, but what they did in other years was vastly better than Campbell has shown himself capable of. But I know there are other factors like coaching, wide receivers, systems, etc. Maybe he's been permanently damaged by the Skins, maybe he'll do well with another team, maybe he's just average no matter what the circumstances. We may never know.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=Chico23231;623384]Exactly. Zero in the leadership department. A complete flushing out of the offense is what we need. Bye Bye JC!!!![/quote]

Until you are in the huddle, or around the team for a considerable amount ot time, assumptions like this are asinine.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=44Deezel;623412]The names on GTRIPPs list, Elway, Jaworski, Big Ben, Simms, etc. may have have performed comparably when they had similar sack totals, but what they did in other years was vastly better than Campbell has shown himself capable of. But I know there are other factors like coaching, wide receivers, systems, etc. Maybe he's been permanently damaged by the Skins, maybe he'll do well with another team, maybe he's just average no matter what the circumstances. We may never know.[/quote]Well, you're right. They have (with the exception of Carr). But a lot of them hadn't prior to the high sack season.

The main point of starting this thread was to pose the question: what can we do as a team to get more out of our quarterback position? The Pittsburgh comparison is really close because that's a team that lost Faneca and had a poor offensive line for basically a 16-game season, and Roethlisberger played skittish and inconsistent all year.

Right now, Ben's damn near 70% completion and he's getting good protection from his line. He's having an MVP type season. Admittedly, their OL is much younger than ours is, but it's 4 of the same 5 guys who played last year when they struggled. Zorn and Arians run similar schemes, although I certainly don't feel they are equals.

The Steelers had a really bad offense last year, and got it fixed in one offseason (plus a postseason). I'm not even suggesting that the Redskins should even attempt to fix this crap in a single offseason, but my question is: what would we have to do to get a similar result?

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=cpayne5;623419]Until you are in the huddle, or around the team for a considerable amount ot time, assumptions like this are asinine.[/quote]I just assumed he was in the huddle. He sounded confident.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

I have seen nothing out of Jason this year that says he is anything more than a backup QB, and i definatley don't see him staying here next year.

I do not think jason is a bad quarterback. But i don't think he is a starter because he lacks motivation and doesnt seem to be able to "fire up" the team. He will go somewhere and do well as a backup, ala Charlie Batch. Come in and play a game or 2 and the team at least has a chance....but he isn't the answer for 16 games..

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;623426]I have seen nothing out of Jason this year that says he is anything more than a backup QB, and i definatley don't see him staying here next year.

I do not think jason is a bad quarterback. But i don't think he is a starter because he [B]lacks motivation[/B] and doesnt seem to be able to "fire up" the team. He will go somewhere and do well as a backup, ala Charlie Batch. Come in and play a game or 2 and the team at least has a chance....but he isn't the answer for 16 games..[/quote]

Statements like that amaze me.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=cpayne5;623419]Until you are in the huddle, or around the team for a considerable amount ot time, assumptions like this are asinine.[/quote]

Dont need to be in a huddle to see. I see it in interviews, his demeanor on the field, and most important in the win-loss column.

Im not attacking his character, his seems to be a fine likeable person. Hell, I wanted him to succeed. Thats not the issue. Im thinking of the body of work and his ability to carry a team to a win, ability to lead a team a tough patch in a season, and make people around him better. You either got it or you dont. I dont think he has it.

I pretty sure the FO is convinced and will being persuing other options in the offseason like they did last offseason, so we are really debating nothing at this point.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=Chico23231;623430][B]Dont need to be in a huddle to see. I see it in interviews, his demeanor on the field, and most important in the win-loss column. [/B]

Im not attacking his character, his seems to be a fine likeable person. Hell, I wanted him to succeed. Thats not the issue. Im thinking of the body of work and his ability to carry a team to a win, ability to lead a team a tough patch in a season, and make people around him better. You either got it or you dont. I dont think he has it.

I pretty sure the FO is convinced and will being persuing other options in the offseason like they did last offseason, so we are really debating nothing at this point.[/quote]I think the implied assumption here is that you have to be as smart as you to be able to read between the lines like this, and all of us mindless drones that look at numbers just can't see what you can.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=GTripp0012;623423]I just assumed he was in the huddle. He sounded confident.[/quote]

Im confident he wont be around next season. Best of luck to JC, would like to see him win somewhere else in a stable, well run organization. He has worked too hard.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=GTripp0012;623433]I think the implied assumption here is that you have to be as smart as you to be able to read between the lines like this, and all of us mindless drones that look at numbers just can't see what you can.[/quote]

Not really, i love the stats but just looking past that right now. He stats are what they are...not that great. Mindless drones?...Never

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

Campbell is going to get the hell out of this schizophrenic and disjointed club, move on to a more disciplined and organized franchise, and prove to be a more than decent QB. The 'Skins have probably ruined him from ever reaching true elite status, but he is going to shine somewhere else that isn't the goddamn freak show we've been the past two seasons.

He'll join a host of other players that we let go of and who shined once they got the hell out of here.

I'm fairly certain of that based on nothing but my gut.

And if I were him, I couldn't get out of this circus fast enough.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

Should'nt this be put into #'s don't lie.
Compare wins and losses. Compare redzone stats. Compare thrird down completion percentages. Look at touchdown numbers. Jason campbell is not a franchise quarterback. Lets start looking at QB prospects in the draft.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=Chico23231;623430][B]Dont need to be in a huddle to see. I see it in interviews, his demeanor on the field, and most important in the win-loss column. [/B]

Im not attacking his character, his seems to be a fine likeable person. Hell, I wanted him to succeed. Thats not the issue. Im thinking of the body of work and his ability to carry a team to a win, ability to lead a team a tough patch in a season, and make people around him better. You either got it or you dont. I dont think he has it.

I pretty sure the FO is convinced and will being persuing other options in the offseason like they did last offseason, so we are really debating nothing at this point.[/quote]

Sure you do. Coming to such a damning conclusion, you should have all the details. All of them. Otherwise, it's somewhat baseless.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;623438]Should'nt this be put into #'s don't lie.
Compare wins and losses. Compare redzone stats. Compare thrird down completion percentages. Look at touchdown numbers. Jason campbell is not a franchise quarterback. Lets start looking at QB prospects in the draft.[/quote]

Right, because a new QB will play much better behind this line. ;)

IMO, if JC is willing to stay next year, I say keep him. He's certainly serviceable. Build the team around him, but not necessarily in that sense. If he's not the QB to lead the team to a SB, then draft a young guy in subsequent years. I don't think you're going to get anyone better than him in the draft next year, and at the same time you'd be wasting a pick that could get you an above average OL. It just doesn't make any sense to pick a QB next year when you have so many more pressing needs (that directly affect the QB's play!).

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=cpayne5;623440]Sure you do. Coming to such a damning conclusion, you should have all the details. All of them. Otherwise, it's somewhat baseless.[/quote]

Gotta disagree. I dont have all the details, hell nobody that post here does. Im just telling you how I see it, the body of work, watching him navigate through the ups and downs of the season and how he responds. He is not a rookie, he has been here awhile. In terms of baseless, then go to the stats...like I said prior, there not great.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=Chico23231;623447]Gotta disagree. I dont have all the details, hell nobody that post here does. Im just telling you how I see it, [B]the body of work, watching him navigate through the ups and downs of the season and how he responds[/B]. He is not a rookie, he has been here awhile. In terms of baseless, then go to the stats...like I said prior, there not great.[/quote]

But you're not seeing all of it, as you said.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

jc stats are very deceiving he makes the completions, but he throws to the check down reciever. the easy completion. Never the long ball or the big threat play.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=GTripp0012;623359]Decided to start a new Campbell thread since the OP in the "Campbell's numbers don't lie" thread is now 6 weeks old, and no one is going to read through 1,000 posts.

Bill Barnwell at FO provides us this PFR query for Jason Campbell's season, based on the explosion of his sack rate. He compares Campbell's numbers to the 17 closest seasons in the last thirty years.

The link is here:

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/WnSlC"]Player Season Finder Query Results | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL]

Barnwell's analysis is here:

[url=http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2009/jason-campbells-sack-rate]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Jason Campbell's Sack Rate[/url]

The most interesting thing is the two closest seasons to the season Campbell is having now, out of every QB season in the last 30 years, were Ben Roethlisberger's worst two seasons. There's little doubt that Roethlisberger is seeing downfield right now a lot better than Campbell is, but I'm not sure that's always been the case.

Question is, exactly how did the Steelers get that offense to where they are right now? And how can the Redskins prevent this situation from finishing out as bad as it started.[/quote]

I just hope that we haven't damaged JC and made him permanently gun shy like what happened to Carr.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=cpayne5;623449]But you're not seeing all of it, as you said.[/quote]

But what I am seeing is Tony Romo, Big Ben, Kurt Warner, Eli Manning lead teams who dont have the physical abilities JC has. JC has it all the physical tools. Mental side seems to be a different story. Now our line is bad....but not the entire time JC has been here. Even when he get times to throw he check down to fast, miss guys who are open, get happy feet, and get gun shy.
Eli, come on, no physical tools comparison, lead a Giants team to a superbowl win against a better team. IMO biggest superbowl upset all time. Led the team in a game winning drive. Led the team with ex players said he couldnt in the media capital of the world.
Warner washed up vet? Hell no, lead a team with a bad defense and average to bad Oline to the Superbowl. He cant throw the ball like he use to, leadership helped.
Romo, I hate this guy, but he is better than JC. Huge Playmaker, average oline, overrated defense.
Big Ben, Leader to the fullest. Throwing the ball he is kinda weak. Big playmaker, Bad Oline.

Now I dont know all the details, but these guys are better. Just some Campbell Comparables.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

Can we please stop talking about this guy... He won't be here next season so give it up!!

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=GTripp0012;623359]Decided to start a new Campbell thread since the OP in the "Campbell's numbers don't lie" thread is now 6 weeks old, and no one is going to read through 1,000 posts.

Bill Barnwell at FO provides us this PFR query for Jason Campbell's season, based on the explosion of his sack rate. He compares Campbell's numbers to the 17 closest seasons in the last thirty years.

The link is here:

[URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/tiny/WnSlC"]Player Season Finder Query Results | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL]

Barnwell's analysis is here:

[URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/extra-points/2009/jason-campbells-sack-rate"]FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Jason Campbell's Sack Rate[/URL]

The most interesting thing is the two closest seasons to the season Campbell is having now, out of every QB season in the last 30 years, were Ben Roethlisberger's worst two seasons. There's little doubt that Roethlisberger is seeing downfield right now a lot better than Campbell is, but I'm not sure that's always been the case.

[B]Question is, exactly how did the Steelers get that offense to where they are right now? And how can the Redskins prevent this situation from finishing out as bad as it started.[/quote][/B]

[B]It's very simple. Ben R. is a better QB. Ben can extend plays and for every bad play he makes, he'll make two that can win the game. JC simply can't do what Ben does. But Ben's also got better wr's and plays in a better system. [/B]

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=Chico23231;623477]But what I am seeing is Tony Romo, Big Ben, Kurt Warner, Eli Manning lead teams who dont have the physical abilities JC has. JC has it all the physical tools. Mental side seems to be a different story. Now our line is bad....but not the entire time JC has been here. Even when he get times to throw he check down to fast, miss guys who are open, get happy feet, and get gun shy.
Eli, come on, no physical tools comparison, lead a Giants team to a superbowl win against a better team. IMO biggest superbowl upset all time. Led the team in a game winning drive. Led the team with ex players said he couldnt in the media capital of the world.
Warner washed up vet? Hell no, lead a team with a bad defense and average to bad Oline to the Superbowl. He cant throw the ball like he use to, leadership helped.
Romo, I hate this guy, but he is better than JC. Huge Playmaker, average oline, overrated defense.
Big Ben, Leader to the fullest. Throwing the ball he is kinda weak. Big playmaker, Bad Oline.

Now I dont know all the details, but these guys are better. Just some Campbell Comparables.[/quote]

Nothing wrong with going with your gut. How many times has an announcer say they think Big Ben is a top 5 qb yet statistics don't show it. Disagree on JC having all the physical tools tho. His release is slow and he is definitely a slow runner. I feel like Romo and Ben can make plays with their feet that JC normally struggles with.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

On a side note I think it's time for both parties to move on. I really wish JC well. He can play in the NFL if he's in the right offense and has the players around him. He's a high character stand up guy and hopefully he will find some stability w/ another team.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

I use to think that Josh Freeman was going to be comprable to Campbell but thats already starting to be proven wrong.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

I was a big JC advocate over the last two seasons. My thinking was Zorn's QB-coach experience would pay huge dividends and Jason would take a big leap forward in decision-making and accuracy. I've also been a realist about our "league-worst" FO situation and the atrocious roster decisions regarding the oline. While it's real tempting to look and say Jason is getting killed out there and doesn't have much to work with, I'm focused on games 2 thru 4 when the line was better intact and we were playing the other really bad teams in football. I haven't seen any leadership from Jason in good, or bad, situations. Our offense is disgustingly sloppy regardless of who's healthy or what factors are involved, from Moss to Sellers to CP it's just a shit-show out there.

Now I'm well aware the discipline thing starts at the top. "Attitude reflect leadership" as they say, and the leadership which should start within the FO (NOT THE OWNER, but in our sad case it's one and the same) falls somewhere between non-existent and barely detectable at Redskins Park. Again the weird little toady Snyder insists on having as the face of the franchise utterly lacks inter-personal skills, as admitted even by Snyder's biggest apologists here and elsewhere, and therefor nobody expects anything from Cerrato in the leadership dept. But Jason is the guy holding the ball on game-day, he's the only guy left to demand a strong performance and solid execution from the guys surrounding him (don't tell me that should be Zorn's job, Snyder hired the gee-wiz coach precisely because Zorn isn't a fiery personality). I don't think anyone can honestly argue Jason has proven to be a leader. It has nothing to do w/ sacks or knock-downs or any other QB stat so far as I can tell. Have you ever seen Jason get into Moss', Seller's, or any of his teammates face after they gave up on a play or killed the 3rd down conversion? Never. On the sidelines. On the way to the locker room. Never. I see Brady (who I don't even like) do it. I see Peyton do it on the effing field in full view of everyone watching. I see Brees do it but you can always see a look of encouragement there too which I find exceptional. I expected to see it from Jason this year, but it's not gonna happen. He's not a leader and therefor I don't really see his numbers as important...the results will never be there.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

Campbell will never win a super bowl but he is not the main reason for this team messing up as bad as it has.

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[quote=rbanerjee23;623501]Campbell will never win a super bowl but he is not the main reason for this team messing up as bad as it has.[/quote]

I would def agree with him not being the main problem, that would be Vinny.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=Lotus;623472]I just hope that we haven't damaged JC and made him permanently gun shy like what happened to Carr.[/quote]You've inspired (sort of) my new sig.

Note that I'm not saying that new team can't be the 2010 Redskins. I just mean change in the most abstract sense.

And if he does have David Carr disease, well, a bunch of people are waiting in line to tell me "I told you so".

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;623491]I use to think that Josh Freeman was going to be comprable to Campbell but thats already starting to be proven wrong.[/quote]Nominated for conclusion jump of the week (CJOW for the acronymn fans among us).

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=GTripp0012;623513]Nominated for conclusion jump of the week (CJOW for the acronymn fans among us).[/quote]

Lol, which conclusion? Freeman being good, or Freeman being like soup? Because if it's the latter I got that part from Freemans draft profile on NFL.com and ran with it.

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;623545]Lol, which conclusion? Freeman being good, or Freeman being like soup? Because if it's the latter I got that part from Freemans draft profile on NFL.com and ran with it.[/quote]

Dirtbag, where is your sig from? I've forgotten where I saw that "are belong to us" phrase. Is that from Space Invaders?

Re: Campbell Comparables
 

[quote=Lotus;623472]I just hope that we haven't damaged JC and made him permanently gun shy like what happened to Carr.[/quote]
Well if that is the case then he is not a winner or a QB that should be a starter. Never hear this stuff said about big Ben who by the way has been sacked 215 times in 5 yrs to JC's 91 and if you just look at the past three yrs JC has 84 and Ben 116.