With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

I decided to start this thread so that i could talk about the subject without taking the other threads off topic.

As you now know, My good friend Josh Doll was killed in May by 88 year old Charles Clevenger, who had allegedly had either a revoked or suspended license and had not driven in years due to his need of a full-time oxygen tank.

We were talking about this in the other thread:[URL="http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/34086-brett-favre-starting-trend-old-qbs-2.html"]http://www.thewarpath.net/redskins-locker-room/34086-brett-favre-starting-trend-old-qbs-2.html[/URL]

So now your discussion can go here, so that I dont take the other thread off topic like i had been doing. Sorry.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Russell_Weller]George Russell Weller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

This is the guy behind the farmer's market massacre in 2003 that left 10 people dead and i think a dozen more injured. The incident at the time really sparked a debate over whether or not the nation needed some kind of checks and balances when it comes to old people that may be unsafe to keep their license.

I know in Virginia, we do not have any kind of testing to see if you are still physically fit to keep your license other than the vision test (check to see if you see flashing lights). I dont mean to sound discriminatory, but i think that over a certain age, or after a serious surgery/debilitating injury, you should have to retake a driving test in order to keep your license. The only people who should be worried about it are the people who obviously cannot still safely drive. I know plenty of people in their 60's and 70's who would pass it just fine....but i know even more that wouldnt even stand a chance.

What do you think? read the examples given of Charles Clevenger and Russell Weller, and see if what happened was fair. Neither man was given any jail time due to their age.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

I knew one elderly man who was on medication, but the doctors had given him permission to drive. One day, according to him, while on his medications, he still had a seizure and killed two teens. He served 3 years in prison, lost his retirement, and the doctor involved paid out zero through a settlement his insurance reached.

It's not true that elderly won't be punished, but testing and medical certifications after some basic age, 65/70, would certainly make sense.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

Yes there should be more strict testing requirements of drivers over a certain age. But at the same time, if someone wants to get in a car and drive regardless of whether they have a license or not, not much you can do to stop that.

As far as tossing elderly people in jail, not sure I really see the benefit of making them a financial burden on the state.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

Here is some good info to chew on

[url=http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/olderdrivers/]III - Older Drivers[/url]

Part of the increase of course is just due to an increased population.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;640493]I knew one elderly man who was on medication, but the doctors had given him permission to drive. One day, according to him, while on his medications, he still had a seizure and killed two teens. He served 3 years in prison, lost his retirement, and the doctor involved paid out zero through a settlement his insurance reached.

[B]It's not true that elderly won't be punished,[/B] but testing and medical certifications after some basic age, 65/70, would certainly make sense.[/quote]

Which is something that I think keeps getting lost in this discussion

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

i think its just a bad situation for all involved. nobody wants to send an old person to jail, but at the same time people say that probabtion is not severe enough, especially when people are killed.

I understand that inmates of any age are the burden of a state. But like Russell Weller, he would have only lived a few years at the most, and then died in prison.

I guess i'm saying they should have the same punishment as anyone who would committ the crime. I'm 25....if i had killed 10 people by vehicular manslaughter, i would have served 18 years in jail at least....much more money spent by the state instead of if a guy is 90 and might only live 1 or 2 more years....

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

As most know I'm in the insurance business and sometimes I see a driving record and wonder how the person even has a valid lic. I think DMV needs to start with bad drivers first as they are probably more of a risk. Now for older drivers. I see it on the claims side as some people get older you start to see them have alot of fender benders. One lady who comes to mind had 3 at fault accidents in one year. I have seen other customers who cannot remember what bills they have paid or not paid and are loosing it but are still on the road. I have even called a customers family to talk to them about their parents and their driving issues. If I remember correctly the loss trends on people above 70 is close to that of new young drivers but I could be off some on that. I also think family members turn a blind eye to their parents driving because if they turn in their lic. who will have to get them around? I had one customer around 70 stop in the middle of a busy road that has a speed limit of 50 mph to pick up some plastic flowers. A person rear ended him a luckly his car went right missing him while he stood in front of his car picking up flowers. He drove for another 2 years and had several other fender benders. People say why don't the insurance co. just cancel them but thats tough when they have been a customer for 30 years. Now that I think about it I also remember one customer who had like 6 accidents in like 2 years and I don't think DMV ever contacted him about his lic. Finally after his last accident which was pretty bad the family stepped in and had him surrender his lic.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

Your numbers are correct, firstdown. The link a few posts above to that iii.org page shows that the number of fatal accidents caused by old drivers are on par with new, young drivers.

The Josh accident was personal to me, but it started way before. In 2007, my dad had to make the decision to put his grandmother, who was then 88 or 89, in a nursing home. She had lived with us for the past year, after having an accident in her apartment building where she fell out of an elevator shaft and broke both hips and fractured her skull.

Right before that, she still drove semi-weekly. She was in bad shape physically. She could barely walk, or turn her head side to side. In January of 2007, she slammed her car into a concrete near her apartment building, injuring herself and 4 other people. A pedestrian was nearby who would have been killed if the car was 1 foot to the right.

The police charged her, but never did she lose her license or face any other kind of penalty. Thank goodness my dad mercifully stepped in when he did. I think most people feel shame to take away their parents licenses, or maybe to the point where they know they would have to drive them around, etc.

I know in Winchester, nearby to here, there is a bus service that takes elderly people around....its non profit and it is aimed at making the streets safer by keeping them off the road.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

whats wrong with requiring them to take the test when they reach the age of 65? and every year after? the older drivers that are around here, for the most part, are an accident waiting to happen

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

While we're at it how about more restrictions on drivers under 20? Seems that whenever I see someone on the road pulling a dick move, it's usually some kid who doesn't even look old enough to be driving.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=dmek25;640515]whats wrong with requiring them to take the test when they reach the age of 65? and every year after? the older drivers that are around here, for the most part, are an accident waiting to happen[/quote]

Thats my whole point. If they are physically OK and mentally OK, they can pass the test with no worries. The only people crying "age discrimination" are the ones who know they have no chance in hell at passing the test.

But i believe more likely, that most of the really old people know that they probably shouldn't drive, and know they would be up the creek if their state starting making them do a driving test over a certain age.

My great grandma shouldnt have driven....and in her senile brain somewhere she knew that...but she was putting her "independance" above peoples' safety, and possibly lives. She was the kind of person who wouldnt have understood what they had done...and my dad did the right thing.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;640514]Your numbers are correct, firstdown. The link a few posts above to that iii.org page shows that the number of fatal accidents caused by old drivers are on par with new, young drivers.

The Josh accident was personal to me, but it started way before. In 2007, my dad had to make the decision to put his grandmother, who was then 88 or 89, in a nursing home. She had lived with us for the past year, after having an accident in her apartment building where she fell out of an elevator shaft and broke both hips and fractured her skull.

Right before that, she still drove semi-weekly. She was in bad shape physically. She could barely walk, or turn her head side to side. In January of 2007, she slammed her car into a concrete near her apartment building, injuring herself and 4 other people. A pedestrian was nearby who would have been killed if the car was 1 foot to the right.

The police charged her, but never did she lose her license or face any other kind of penalty. Thank goodness my dad mercifully stepped in when he did. I think most people feel shame to take away their parents licenses, or maybe to the point where they know they would have to drive them around, etc.

I know in Winchester, nearby to here, there is a bus service that takes elderly people around....its non profit and it is aimed at making the streets safer by keeping them off the road.[/quote]

You have to remember that when an older person gives up their lic. its alot more to them then just a lic. Its their freedom to come and go when they want, they now have to depend on other for thing like going to the store, doctors, church, etc... and that why so many have a problem handing them over. Plus alot of time when they have an accident they blame it on the other person when its clearly their fault. Its not that they are trying to pull a fast one but thing happen so quick they get confused.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;640516]While we're at it how about more restrictions on drivers under 20? Seems that whenever I see someone on the road pulling a dick move, it's usually some kid who doesn't even look old enough to be driving.[/quote]

They did raise the age here. It used to be you got your learner's at 15...the way it was with me in 1999. But now it's 15 and 6 months....making the age of driver's license 16 and 6 months.

Also now if you are under 21 and you get any kind of ticket, you have to go to a DMV driver improvement course or you lose your license. I think that was made a law in like 2003 or 04'

They have been trying to raise it to 18 for a long time around here. I dont know if it would be good or bad. The roads would probably be safer no doubt, but the schools would have to buy more buses, driver, etc....to accomodate all the kids who normally wouldnt be riding the bus....

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;640517]Thats my whole point. If they are physically OK and mentally OK, they can pass the test with no worries. The only people crying "age discrimination" are the ones who know they have no chance in hell at passing the test.

[SIZE=4]But i believe more likely, that most of the really old people know that they probably shouldn't drive,[/SIZE] and know they would be up the creek if their state starting making them do a driving test over a certain age.

My great grandma shouldnt have driven....and in her senile brain somewhere she knew that...but she was putting her "independance" above peoples' safety, and possibly lives. She was the kind of person who wouldnt have understood what they had done...and my dad did the right thing.[/quote]

I don't think thats true and most think they are just fine to drive. The ones I have seen it takes 3 or 4 things or something really bad happening before they start to get that maybe they should not be driving.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;640519]They did raise the age here. It used to be you got your learner's at 15...the way it was with me in 1999. But now it's 15 and 6 months....making the age of driver's license 16 and 6 months.

Also now if you are under 21 and you get any kind of ticket, you have to go to a DMV driver improvement course or you lose your license. I think that was made a law in like 2003 or 04'

They have been trying to raise it to 18 for a long time around here. I dont know if it would be good or bad. The roads would probably be safer no doubt, but the schools would have to buy more buses, driver, etc....to accomodate all the kids who normally wouldnt be riding the bus....[/quote]

They also limited when they can drive and how many passengers they can have in the car.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=firstdown;640520]I don't think thats true and most think they are just fine to drive. The ones I have seen it takes 3 or 4 things or something really bad happening before they start to get that maybe they should not be driving.[/quote]

What i meant was, its not so much that they are thinking "Screw You, I'm driving no matter what", they start to think about it when they start having trouble getting around, getting short of breath, etc....they start to realize it.

They offset the risk in their minds probably by thinking "oh i only go out once a week, or they think the trip is short enough to home that they wont be dangerous. They are banking on something not happening.

Charles Clevenger would have probably been fine that may evening had nobody been coming down the road. But Josh was....

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;640516]While we're at it how about more restrictions on drivers under 20? Seems that whenever I see someone on the road pulling a dick move, it's usually some kid who doesn't even look old enough to be driving.[/quote]
Totally.........if you want to protect society from the oldsters.......then the youngsters cannot be allowed to menace the roadways either.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

i got rear ended then side swiped by a real old lady once. she was swerving all over the road then smacked into me. it was dark, kinda icy and she said she couldnt see b/c of her defrosters.

we exchange info then her daughter calls asking me to not report the accident to her insurance and that she would pay for the repair. she said her mom was on a fixed budget, needed the car and the insurance would drop her.

i told the daughter that your mom really shouldnt be on the road. when i talked with her while were pulled over she was confused, britle and just not thinking right nor had the physical ability and reaction time to safely operate a vehicle.

long story short, i dont call her insurance and never called her daughter back so i ended up with a messed up bumper and a long streak down the driver side of my car. oe of those times i was being too good for my own good.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

See i would be the exact opposite in that situation. I would always report a crash or something of that nature because at some point, some how, people have to be protected from themselves. OTM, if it hadn't been you, it would be someone else that she would have hit.

It would have caught up to her eventually. My great grandma's accident, there was no way for her to try and hide it or get away...she was too messed up, and there were too many witnesses. But my dad still had a tough decision to make....

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=over the mountain;640534]i got rear ended then side swiped by a real old lady once. she was swerving all over the road then smacked into me. it was dark, kinda icy and she said she couldnt see b/c of her defrosters.

we exchange info then her daughter calls asking me to not report the accident to her insurance and that she would pay for the repair. she said her mom was on a fixed budget, needed the car and the insurance would drop her.

i told the daughter that your mom really shouldnt be on the road. when i talked with her while were pulled over she was confused, britle and just not thinking right nor had the physical ability and reaction time to safely operate a vehicle.

long story short, i dont call her insurance and never called her daughter back so i ended up with a messed up bumper and a long streak down the driver side of my car. oe of those times i was being too good for my own good.[/quote]
Maybe she was just drunk.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

I got blasted by an old lady in Yorktown. I was parked. She plowed into me because her old ass got her clod-hopper stuck in the accelerator. She blasted me so hard I saw lucky charms. Oh did I mention that she tried to drive off but a landscaper threw a shovel at her. I hate old people. When I get that old I'm taking the long walk.

Old people shouldn't be on the road, period.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=firstdown;640542]Maybe she was just drunk.[/quote]

Mom??????

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

See thats what happened with my great g-ma....she would have tried to get away, but her car was wrecked...she had injured passengers, and there were too many witnesses at the apts that knew her, where she lived etc.

And like Russell Weller, they proved it in court that he tried to speed away from the carnage, but his car became stopped because the bodies caught underneath the car raised the front wheels off the ground, thereby stranding it....

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

There are so many bad drivers on the road, young, old and in between that the states might as well retest everyone every so often (5-10 years) then close the gap to every 1-2 years once you hit 65ish (while using the same gap between 16 and 21).

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;640560]There are so many bad drivers on the road, young, old and in between that the [B]states might as well retest everyone every so often (5-10 years)[/B] then close the gap to every 1-2 years once you hit 65ish (while using the same gap between 16 and 21).[/quote]

Virginia has this already, I think. They test me every five years.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=BDBohnzie;640560]There are so many bad drivers on the road, young, old and in between that the states might as well retest everyone every so often (5-10 years) then close the gap to every 1-2 years once you hit 65ish (while using the same gap between 16 and 21).[/quote]

That is a....better idea as any other sort of plan would be viewed as discriminatory and no doubt is.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;640516]While we're at it how about more restrictions on drivers under 20? Seems that whenever I see someone on the road pulling a dick move, it's usually some kid who doesn't even look old enough to be driving.[/quote]

Agreed. It seems that there a few demographics that in general have no friggin clue what they are doing behind the wheel (cough-females-cough). My grandmother is 86 years old, her knees are pretty much shot, and she still drives. Not long distances, but just around town for errands and such. She should NOT be driving. She's mentally sharp as a tack, but her reaction time is like 1/10th of what most normal drivers have. My mom and I have tried to talk her out of it, but she's stubborn. It makes me really nervous.

I think once you're over 70 you should have to pass some sort of mental/physical acuity test to keep your license.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;640573]Virginia has this already, I think. They test me every five years.[/quote]

The only thing i know of is the vision test if you have restrictions on your license like daytime only or "X" for corrective lenses...

I just renewed my license in September...didnt have to take a vision test at all....and my new one is good until 2016 i think....

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

sounds good.....a little additional testing should improve things?

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;640593]The only thing i know of is the vision test if you have restrictions on your license like daytime only or "X" for corrective lenses...

I just renewed my license in September...didnt have to take a vision test at all....and my new one is good until 2016 i think....[/quote]

I've had to retake the whole thing a few times. Then again, I've had a few . . . . adventures.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

Well i know if you lose your license because of like DUI, or something like that, you have to go through it all again.....

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

Don't worry folks, ObamaCare's death panels will take care of these old sons of bitches.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;640624]Well i know if you lose your license because of like DUI, or something like that, you have to go through it all again.....[/quote]
If so thats a new law. Most people who get a DUI only have their Lic. sus. for a short time and can get a restricted lic to go to work and other thing like that. The only DMV requirment is taking the driver improvment course which is a joke and file an FR44 which use to be an SR22.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

I should have clarified....if your license is revoked from your for a time for whatever, you have to go through the whole ordeal again. There is a guy i work with that had 3 DUI's...the 2nd one he lost his license for 5 years....the third one he lost it for good....

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=saden1;640677]Don't worry folks, ObamaCare's death panels will take care of these old sons of bitches.[/quote]
why do you have to start? and happy holidays to you :)

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;640495]Yes there should be more strict testing requirements of drivers over a certain age. But at the same time, if someone wants to get in a car and drive regardless of whether they have a license or not, not much you can do to stop that.

As far as tossing elderly people in jail, not sure I really see the benefit of making them a financial burden on the state.[/quote]
Agreed . Nice post .

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;640516]While we're at it how about more restrictions on drivers under 20? Seems that whenever I see someone on the road pulling a dick move, it's usually some kid who doesn't even look old enough to be driving.[/quote]

seriously. and i think the age should vary more area to area, like in bumbfuck north dakota they can drive around 15, but here in nova or in ny where there is crazy traffic and constant road work they should make the age much higher.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

This is a topic that is a huge pet peeve of mine. I feel like the elderly are the most dangerous demographic on the road. First of all, judges are far less likely to strip the license of a 65 year old man than a 19 year old kid. When a 19 year old does something stupid, driving is a privilege; when an old man does something stupid, he needs his license to go to the Dr., etc etc.

I feel that past the age of 65 mandatory vision and road tests should be required. I don't think it's too much to ask that someone proves they can see and operate a vehicle safely. I know a lot of people bring up young drivers, but keep something in mind. Young drivers need to actually drive to get better. Elderly drivers will only get worse. There's no doubt that young drivers are dangerous and do stupid things, but with experience they will get better. Much like drinking, nothing really changed between 18-21 with the drinking age except people dying from alcohol related incidents 3 years later than they may have normally.

Also, they are adding much more restrictions to young drivers. Can't drive with passengers (besides guardians), can't drive after dark, etc. These are fairly common laws in many states I do believe. I think it's more for the ages of 16-18 in many states, Regardless, they have a step-up system.

And Matty, when I see a dick move, it's normally a Maryland tag -- regardless of age.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

[quote=Mattyk72;640516]While we're at it how about more restrictions on drivers under 20? Seems that whenever I see someone on the road pulling a dick move, it's usually some kid who doesn't even look old enough to be driving.[/quote]I still think we have the drinking age and the driving age backwards.

Re: With a rise in fatal accidents caused by elderly drivers; does the nation need stricter rules on licenses?
 

While were at it, how about euthanasia for the elderly?