Lewis & Reed
 

After sitting here watching the colts completely shut down Baltimore, I started thinking to myself.. And I asked are Ray Lewis and Ed reed the best players to ever play their positions? I'm only 23 so I really never saw lott or LT play in their primes, but there is no doubt in my mind that in the 17 years that I've watched football that Lewis is the best LB I've seen. He is simply dominant, and as far as reed goes.. He has got to be the best playmaking safety ever. I just wanted to discuss something different ( plus I'm bored). What do you all think?

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

I think that I am out of alcohol and judging by this thread you are too. JK

I would never take anything away from Lott or LT. I mean Lott amputated his finger to continue to play in a game. Reed and Lott are two different types of safties actually. The same goes for LT and Lewis. LT was one of the first effective pass rushing OLB's. Ray Lewis is just a wild man who has a knack for finding the ball and making tackles. It is hard to say that any is better than the other because they all bring something different and spectacular to the table.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

I don't know if Ray Lewis is the best LB ever, but IMO he's the best since LT. You also have to think of guys like Butkus, Lambert, and Nitschke. I'd have him in the top three with LT and Butkus.

Ed Reed is amazing. As far as the past 20+ years go, I'd probably take him over Ronnie Lott and Rod Woodson.

You can make a strong argument that they are the two best to ever play their respective positions.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

Lawrence Taylor and Jack Lambert are the best LB's I've ever seen, Ronnie Lott was a great safety as was Ken Houston (2 different eras). Reed and Lewis are great but in my opinion if I was building a team I would take Taylor and Lott. By the way, if it was possible to make a trade I would send Landry and Moss to Baltimore for Reed.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

I wouldn't put Lewis in the class of LT or Singletary. Ive never seen Ray Nitchke, Butkus or Lambert play but they were dominant in an era when the game was much more violent. Lewis is probably the premier Middle Linebacker of his time but I think Patrick Willis will surpass him if he gets a better team around him.

Ed Reed amazes me. I've never seen a Safety control the secondary like him. I think Lott was a better all around Safety because he was so dominant in the running game and intimidating WRs. I wish I could've seen Ken Houston play...

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

Yeah, when LT was in his prime I was like 8 years old, so I don't remember a lot of him. Ray is the best LB I've ever seen as an adult.

I'd take Reed over any other safety just because he so often makes those huge momentum type plays that really change a game.

And I stand by the statement that barring injury, Sean Taylor would have wound up as the best safety of all time.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

It's pretty hard to compare Ray Lewis and LT since they played completely different positions and were thus asked to do different things. As far as modern MLB's go, Lewis is the gold standard.

And I think it's very likely that in 20 years people will talk about Reed as a Mt. Rushmore safety.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

Let me start by saying that it makes me sick to say this - What makes Ray Lewis so incredible is how smart he plays. Having him on the field is like having a D-coordinator out there. He's constantly moving his guys into position and sniffing out plays before the snap. I think part of the reason that he has been so effective for so long is that he just knows what's happening on just about every snap so he can avoid the blockers and the tricks.

I don't know about best ever but he has to be in the conversation.

And Ed Reed is just a fantastic player.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

I think Ray Lewis is a great linebacker who is the most intense player to ever play at that position, but not the most dominant. If there was ever a defensive player that epitomized warrior and raw emotion, it's most definitely Ray Lewis.

As far as Reed goes, besides Lawrence Taylor, he's the most dominant player in NFL history. I know some will disagree with that statement, especially given the position Reed plays. But I've pretty much followed the guy, like most here, since the U and he consistently comes up with either game winning or game changing plays; week after week, year after year. Ed Reed is undoubtedly the best saftey to ever play in the National Football League. Yes, Ronnie Lott included. Another thing Reed rarely get's credit for is his football IQ. I guess that's because he's so athletic and versatile, but he's probably one of the most intelligent if not [I]the[/I] most intelligent defensive player in the game today.

What made Ronnie Lott unique to me is that he played like a linebacker in a safety's body. He absolutely had no regard for his physical well being or that of his opponent. If Ronnie Lott played in this era, he'd get hit with fines every other week. People forget that he started out playing corner and moved to safety later in his career. Great player though.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

I would have loved to see lott play in his prime, IMO reed is by far the best since the lott era. Lewis is just a beast , he has got to be in the top 4 ever . Like I said I was just bored and wanted to start a good conversation lol

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;655474][B]Lawrence Taylor and Jack Lambert are the best LB's I've ever seen, Ronnie Lott was a great safety as was Ken Houston [/B](2 different eras). Reed and Lewis are great but in my opinion if I was building a team I would take Taylor and Lott. By the way, if it was possible to make a trade I would send Landry and Moss to Baltimore for Reed.[/quote]

Jack Lambert was probably my favorite player all time and Ken Houston was amazing. All of these guys made defense fun to watch. It would be hard to say any LB was better than Taylor. The dude was an animal on the field. LT probably had the biggest impact on the OLB position than anyone but as far as MLB...I'd take Lambert. I'd take Houston as my safety.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;655484]I would have loved to see lott play in his prime, IMO reed is by far the best since the lott era. Lewis is just a beast , he has got to be in the top 4 ever . Like I said I was just bored and wanted to start a good conversation lol[/quote]

Ronnie Lott was just a bad ass. Plain and simple. He would just slam into guys and they'd hit the ground like they just got hit by a 250lb linebacker. That's one of the reasons he had to move to safety, all the rugged play just took it's toll on his body.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=53Fan;655485]Jack Lambert was probably my favorite player all time and Ken Houston was amazing. All of these guys made defense fun to watch. It would be hard to say any LB was better than Taylor. The dude was an animal on the field. LT probably had the biggest impact on the OLB position than anyone but as far as MLB...I'd take Lambert. I'd take Houston as my safety.[/quote]

I never really bought into the hype about Jack Lambert. Don't get me wrong, he was awesome. But he had Mean Joe Green, LC Greenwood, Mel Blount, Jack Ham, and a gang of other perennial Pro-Bowlers on defense. The Steelers were stacked.

Actually in today's NFL, Lambert wouldn't stand a chance. I think he weighed something like 218 pounds, 220 pounds on a good day.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

Two words - Sean Taylor

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=WaldSkins;655492]Two words - Sean Taylor[/quote]

Love ST but he didn't get that chance :( he would have been a HOF

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=12thMan;655490]I never really bought into the hype about Jack Lambert. Don't get me wrong, he was awesome. But he had Mean Joe Green, LC Greenwood, Mel Blount, Jack Ham, and a gang of other perennial Pro-Bowlers on defense. The Steelers were stacked.

Actually in today's NFL, Lambert wouldn't stand a chance. I think he weighed something like 218 pounds, 220 pounds on a good day.[/quote]

Well with the increase in speed and size in todays game, yeah, there would be a difference. But at the time, he was dominant. Ray Lewis has had some pretty good teamates in his career too. As did most of those mentioned. In spite of his size, he was one mean, dominant MF who intimidated the opposition. They wouldn't have played someone that size in the middle if he wasn't. You can't measure heart.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

Adam Archuleta is the best safety of all time.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=53Fan;655496]Well with the increase in speed and size in todays game, yeah, there would be a difference. But at the time, he was dominant. Ray Lewis has had some pretty good teamates in his career too. As did most of those mentioned. In spite of his size, he was one mean, dominant MF who intimidated the opposition. They wouldn't have played someone that size in the middle if he wasn't. You can't measure heart.[/quote]

True. Maybe I just hated Lambert with a passion.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=53Fan;655496]Well with the increase in speed and size in todays game, yeah, there would be a difference. But at the time, he was dominant. Ray Lewis has had some pretty good teamates in his career too. As did most of those mentioned. In spite of his size, he was one mean, dominant MF who intimidated the opposition. They wouldn't have played someone that size in the middle if he was'nt. You can't measure heart.[/quote]

And when he looked at you with no front teeth, you would shit your pants. I don't give a crap who surrounded Lambert that guy was scary as was Lawrence Taylor. Let's not forget "The Assassin" Jack tatum and today's Troy Palumalu.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=WaldSkins;655497]Adam Archuleta is the best safety of all time.[/quote]

Damn and we cut him!!! I hope BA has enough sense to keep our best players.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=SFREDSKIN;655499]And when he looked at you with no front teeth, you would shit your pants. I don't give a crap who surrounded Lambert that guy was scary as was Lawrence Taylor. Let's not forget "The Assassin" Jack tatum and today's Troy Palumalu.[/quote]

I had forgot about Tatum, and Pittsburgh's D is not nearly the same without Polamalu.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

As for the Lott / Reed comparison they played in a different time so its hard to say Reed doesnt have the intimidation factor that Lott had... I mean back when Lott played you could pretty much take a wr's head off when he went over the middle and that was part of the game. Now you brush up against them and its a 1st down. Yeah Lott brought the pain but you have to wonder if he would be the same player in todays BS rules.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=DBUCHANON101;655502]As for the Lott / Reed comparison they played in a different time so its hard to say Reed doesnt have the intimidation factor that Lott had... I mean back when Lott played you could pretty much take a wr's head off when he went over the middle and that was part of the game. Now you brush up against them and its a 1st down. Yeah Lott brought the pain but you have to wonder if he would be the same player in todays BS rules.[/quote]

Lott was one tough SOB but you make a good point. There's no way Jack Tatum could play the way he did today either. That's why I like Houston better. I think he had better skills and he could knock you sideways without headhunting.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=53Fan;655503]Lott was one tough SOB but you make a good point. There's no way Jack Tatum could play the way he did today either. That's why I like Houston better. I think he had better skills even though he could knock you sideways.[/quote]

I would still take Lott, if there was a player that I think would have been great as Lott is our own Sean Taylor.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYVvQ6-9ZGk&feature=related]YouTube - Ronnie Lott Highlights[/ame]

ENJOY!!

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

great video. thanks for sharing that.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

Great vid SFREDSKIN! Talk about heart! One receiver said, "Ronnie Lott knocked the taste out of my mouth". LOL. I agree about ST. I think he could have been the best ever.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=WaldSkins;655497]Adam Archuleta is the best safety of all time.[/quote]

And Warrick Holdman is the greatest LB of all time

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;655479]Let me start by saying that it makes me sick to say this - What makes Ray Lewis so incredible is how smart he plays. Having him on the field is like having a D-coordinator out there. He's constantly moving his guys into position and sniffing out plays before the snap. I think part of the reason that he has been so effective for so long is that he just knows what's happening on just about every snap so he can avoid the blockers and the tricks.

I don't know about best ever but he has to be in the conversation.

And Ed Reed is just a fantastic player.[/quote]

This^^^^ Peyton talked about the chess match with Ray Lewis, plus his abilty to make plays anywhere, could be argued as best LB ever, inteligently.

Ed Reed is great but not in the best ever conversation, could be top 5/10 if he continues to play at the level he does.

Sean Taylor still best talent I have seen play at Saftey bar none. He was just coming into his own, and would have been one of the greatest of all time if not the best. God Bless, 21.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;655512]And Warrick Holdman is the greatest LB of all time[/quote]

LOL. I still can't believe he started for us.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

Well this is interesting, apparently Reed is considering retirement: [url=http://views.washingtonpost.com/theleague/nflnewsfeed/2010/01/reed-says-hell-consider-retirement.html]NFL News Feed: Reed says he'll consider retirement - Mark Maske[/url]

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=ArtMonkDrillz;655520]Well this is interesting, apparently Reed is considering retirement: [URL="http://views.washingtonpost.com/theleague/nflnewsfeed/2010/01/reed-says-hell-consider-retirement.html"]NFL News Feed: Reed says he'll consider retirement - Mark Maske[/URL][/quote]
I will believe it when I see Brett....ehr Ed do it

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

I get choked up when I think about our beloved Sean Taylor. What a shame!

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

ST would've been up there with Reed for sure...

Just to point out one thing, Ray Ray (by his own admission) didn't do shit until they drafted Ngata to replace Siragusa and Sam Adams. He credits the solid DT's with allowing him to play and dominate in his style. I think Lewis was blessed with a system that Marvin Lewis installed, that he mastered and was able to adapt to suit his strengths. Remember he isn't exactly a superstar in coverage. This meant that he had a GM, various coaching staffs, and an ownership structure that were willing to build around him and to allow him to be a field general of the defense. That type of freedom and support is rare for other LB's around the league. Urlacher has/had some elements of that but even his word doesn't hold the clout that Ray's does in B'more. Ozzie went out and drafted the guys to address positions that Ray Lewis personally (and publicly) lobbied for. Those guys turned out to be studs too (one after the other). I don't think LT had that level of support on and off the field throughout his career.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=LandrySlice;655526]I get choked up when I think about our beloved Sean Taylor. What a shame![/quote]

One day i was off work and the wife and kids were gone. I went to youtube and watched a few ST vids.... waterworks started and i had to turn it off. RIP #21

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=Rajmahal33;655532]ST would've been up there with Reed for sure...

Just to point out one thing, Ray Ray (by his own admission) didn't do shit until they drafted Ngata to replace Siragusa and Sam Adams. He credits the solid DT's with allowing him to play and dominate in his style. I think Lewis was blessed with a system that Marvin Lewis installed, that he mastered and was able to adapt to suit his strengths. Remember he isn't exactly a superstar in coverage. This meant that he had a GM, various coaching staffs, and an ownership structure that were willing to build around him and to allow him to be a field general of the defense. That type of freedom and support is rare for other LB's around the league. Urlacher has/had some elements of that but even his word doesn't hold the clout that Ray's does in B'more. Ozzie went out and drafted the guys to address positions that Ray Lewis personally (and publicly) lobbied for. Those guys turned out to be studs too (one after the other). I don't think LT had that level of support on and off the field throughout his career.[/quote]

I remember the draft when they selected Ngata, didnt Ray pretty much give the FO an altimatum like draft this guy or i retire?

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

I strated watching football in 1972 . LT and Lott IMO were as good as it gets . Reed is awesome , I also think Troy P. < Steelers > is top notch . Lott was a pro bowl CB and FS ... had we drafted Lott in '81 , then D. Green '83 ... I say we have 1 more V. Lombardi trophy siiting @ Redskins park . 53 is right , K. Houston was awesome , a 100% HOF'er !! Butkus , Lambert and Singletary were mean mothers , I would guess that R. Lewis should be talked about as all time greats . Sadly we will not see ST going into the HOF as a 9-10 time pro bowler .

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=Rajmahal33;655532]ST would've been up there with Reed for sure...

Just to point out one thing, Ray Ray (by his own admission) didn't do shit until they drafted Ngata to replace Siragusa and Sam Adams. He credits the solid DT's with allowing him to play and dominate in his style. I think Lewis was blessed with a system that Marvin Lewis installed, that he mastered and was able to adapt to suit his strengths. Remember he isn't exactly a superstar in coverage. This meant that he had a GM, various coaching staffs, and an ownership structure that were willing to build around him and to allow him to be a field general of the defense. That type of freedom and support is rare for other LB's around the league. Urlacher has/had some elements of that but even his word doesn't hold the clout that Ray's does in B'more. Ozzie went out and drafted the guys to address positions that Ray Lewis personally (and publicly) lobbied for. Those guys turned out to be studs too (one after the other). I don't think LT had that level of support on and off the field throughout his career.[/quote]

So you're saying that Lewis, while great, owes a lot of his success to several other factors that fell into place for him? OK, but my question is, how does that make him different than nearly every other great player in the history of football? No man is an island in the ultimate team sport.

And I think it's tough to argue that LT didn't have a solid situation himself. He played on historically great teams.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

L.T is easily the best linebacker that i have seen. Lott and Reed are 2 totally different players. and with the way the rules are right now, Lott would dramatically have to change his game. he played on toughness, and physicality. all of his helmet to helmet stuff is now illegal. Reed is a down right play-maker. i would say that Woodson was the closest thing to Reed.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

[quote=Rajmahal33;655532]ST would've been up there with Reed for sure...

Just to point out one thing, Ray Ray (by his own admission) didn't do shit until they drafted Ngata to replace Siragusa and Sam Adams. He credits the solid DT's with allowing him to play and dominate in his style. I think Lewis was blessed with a system that Marvin Lewis installed, that he mastered and was able to adapt to suit his strengths. Remember he isn't exactly a superstar in coverage. This meant that he had a GM, various coaching staffs, and an ownership structure that were willing to build around him and to allow him to be a field general of the defense. That type of freedom and support is rare for other LB's around the league. Urlacher has/had some elements of that but even his word doesn't hold the clout that Ray's does in B'more. Ozzie went out and drafted the guys to address positions that Ray Lewis personally (and publicly) lobbied for. Those guys turned out to be studs too (one after the other). I don't think LT had that level of support on and off the field throughout his career.[/quote]

Ngata wasn't drafted until 2006. Ray was drafted in !996. To say he "didn't do shit" until Ngata got there is just wrong.

Re: Lewis & Reed
 

Looks like Ed Reed is mulling retirement. He's dealing with a bad neck injury.

[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4833327]Baltimore Ravens safety Ed Reed unsure if he'll return next season; receiver Derrick Mason, too - ESPN[/url]