CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

One of the biggest storylines over the next month and a half will be what progress, if any, is reached in the CBA negotiations. Will they have any chance of avoiding an uncapped year? A lockout next year?

Well, NYG owner Mara has made the first public statement of an owner, and it is not a very positive one:

[url=http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/sports/football/20labor.html?ref=sports]Giants’ John Mara Cites Lack of Progress in Labor Talks - NYTimes.com[/url]

[QUOTE] Mara said he still had hope that a lockout could be averted.

“I don’t think we’re making any progress,” Mara said in a telephone interview. “We made a proposal in early November. I don’t think we’ve received a meaningful counterproposal. The point that we try to make to them is that the costs and risks are much greater than they ever have been. Especially in this economy. I don’t think there has been enough of a recognition on their part of that concept.”

Mara added, “They want a deal that is equal to or better than the existing one, and that is not acceptable to us.” [/QUOTE]

According to the article the owners are also talking about a rookie salary cap that could be effective as early as this draft. (for what it's worth, the NFLPA president is on record as saying that is an issue for the owners, not a CBA negotiated fact, but that doesn't mean they want that money going anywhere other than players.)

From the article, uncapped seems inevitable, a lockout a very real possibility.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

ugh.. neither side can ever be satisfied.. a lockout would really suck

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=tryfuhl;656832]ugh.. neither side can ever be satisfied.. a lockout would really suck[/quote]

We have our best years during strikes and lockouts, bring it on.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

Ask the MLB and NHL how well their lockouts went.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

What is a lockout No season in 2011

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

I think it would be in the players best interest to make concessions. They are not going to bring the NFL to their knees IMO and with their salaries they won't get any public support. Baseball was hit bigtime with this sort of thing and the players were portrayed as ungrateful, money-hungry prima-donnas. They may have some legitimate gripes but you don't want to kill the goose that layed the golden egg. In this economy it's hard to feel for players (especially rookies) who are guaranteed millions of dollars, no matter what the conditions.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=Redskin301;656837]What is a lockout No season in 2011[/quote]

A lockout means that the owners do not allow the players to come to work. This is unfortunately going to happen in 2011 but I seriously doubt there will be no football in 2011.

A more likely scenario is the owners lock the players out in the offseason which will linger until mid summer and push back the start of the '11 football season (maybe a 14 game season rather than 16 games).

The owners and players have far too much to lose and don't want to screw up the best thing going in sports today with an in season work stoppage.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=53Fan;656841]I think it would be in the players best interest to make concessions. They are not going to bring the NFL to their knees IMO and with their salaries they won't get any public support. Baseball was hit bigtime with this sort of thing and the players were portrayed as ungrateful, money-hungry prima-donnas. They may have some legitimate gripes but you don't want to kill the goose that layed the golden egg. In this economy it's hard to feel for players (especially rookies) who are guaranteed millions of dollars, no matter what the conditions.[/quote]

The ironic thing is that the general public will often show sympathy for billionaires (the owners) over the millionaires (players) by calling the players selfish, greedy, etc.. In no other industry does public perception favor management/ownership over labor so greatly.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

These things always come down to the last minute.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

It's going to take a great deal of compromise but I believe a deal will get done in time to avert a lock-out to the 2011 season. For sure the owners are not content with the deal that's in place now, and for the PU to demand even more concessions is going to present a difficult challenge.

Upshaw was a tough negotiator, his experience now being absent from the process will be an issue most players don't have the knowledge of being without. We'll get a glimpse of the kind of negotiator the new Union boss is going to ultimately be.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

I remember this non sense back in the 80's and it really sucked. Watching those replacement games was just awful and having no football was worse. Although I'll never forget that Monday night against Dallas where Gibbs had Tony Robinson running the option and we beat a Dallas team that had many players cross the picket line. Anyone out there remember that? They carried Gibbs off the field....that was great stuff and one of the best coaching jobs I've ever seen. I don't know which side is being greedy but to me the players really don't have the upper hand here. Playing 18 games is the worst idea I've heard and putting in a rookie salary cap is the best idea I've heard.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

This is like "the replacements" again in real life....again lol.

I was too young to remember the strike in the 80's....maybe i will finally get to see replacement players again.

Bring it on!

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

I agree, that a rookie pay scale need to be in place. An unproven player coming out and getting drafted in the first round is like winning the lottery. These guys make way to much money to start. I believe it will make the rookies better in the long run because they know they have to earn their money. Nothing would be given to them.

I am sure more than one of you will agree that just because you were a star in college gives you no right to come into the NFL and start making veteran star player money. This is ridiculous. The Teams who miss with thier top picks become hindered by a failing rookie, because of his contract. Look at the Raiders for example and Jamarcus Russel. The dude is terrible, but he will never have to work a day in his life if he is smart with his cash.

There are so MANY reasons why the NFL needs a rookie pay scale.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

If a rookie wage scale is in place before this years draft, it dramatically increases the likelyhood that we'll be able to find a team willing to trade up to get our #4 overall pick.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;656914]If a rookie wage scale is in place before this years draft, it dramatically increases the likelyhood that we'll be able to find a team willing to trade up to get our #4 overall pick.[/quote]
Even if no trade benefits for us, it's long overdue. Crabtree proved it.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;656835]Ask the MLB and NHL how well their lockouts went.[/quote]

Actually don't ask. MLB's revenues now are the highest they have ever been - - and approach those of the NFL. Today, the majority of NHL teams are profitable and that was certainly not the case before the season-long lockout.


The sad reality is that both of those lockouts helped the economics of MLB and the NHL far more than they hurt the economics.


Pissed off fans vent and holler but they don't stay pissed off. They come back and spend their money.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;657017]Actually don't ask. MLB's revenues now are the highest they have ever been - - and approach those of the NFL. Today, the majority of NHL teams are profitable and that was certainly not the case before the season-long lockout.


The sad reality is that both of those lockouts helped the economics of MLB and the NHL far more than they hurt the economics.


Pissed off fans vent and holler but they don't stay pissed off. They come back and spend their money.[/quote]

I don't think the lockout in MLB should be given as much credit as you are giving it. I think raised ticketing and merchandising prices are mainly to credit for the league raising revenue.

Here's some food for thought (doesn't exactly support or refute your point) but it shows how player's salaries affect the league's profit margin. It may not be how most of us thought it would be:
[URL="http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/aajoe7/135024/"]Sporting News - Your expert source for MLB Baseball, NFL Football, NBA Basketball, NHL Hockey, NCAA Football, NCAA Basketball and Fantasy Sports scores, blogs, and articles[/URL]

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=Rajmahal33;657031]I don't think the lockout in MLB should be given as much credit as you are giving it. I think raised ticketing and merchandising prices are mainly to credit for the league raising revenue.

Here's some food for thought (doesn't exactly support or refute your point) but it shows how player's salaries affect the league's profit margin. It may not be how most of us thought it would be:
[URL="http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/aajoe7/135024/"]Sporting News - Your expert source for MLB Baseball, NFL Football, NBA Basketball, NHL Hockey, NCAA Football, NCAA Basketball and Fantasy Sports scores, blogs, and articles[/URL][/quote]

If I read this right, the salary cap actually increases player salaries? Interesting.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=skinsfan69;656892]I remember this non sense back in the 80's and it really sucked. Watching those replacement games was just awful and having no football was worse. Although I'll never forget that Monday night against Dallas where Gibbs had Tony Robinson running the option and we beat a Dallas team that had many players cross the picket line. Anyone out there remember that? They carried Gibbs off the field....that was great stuff and one of the best coaching jobs I've ever seen. I don't know which side is being greedy but to me the players really don't have the upper hand here. Playing 18 games is the worst idea I've heard and putting in a rookie salary cap is the best idea I've heard.[/quote]

Actually I have very fond memories of the scabs! We had the best owner in the NFL or in all sports Jack Kent Cooke; arguably the best front office mastermind in Bobby Beathard ; and future hall of famer Joe Gibbs! Those were the Golden Days! A small reminder

1987-Scab Game: No team in the NFL had more players cross the picket line during the 1987 strike than the Cowboys, who were 2–0 with their "scab" players entering a game with the Redskins on Monday Night Football. Washington had also won their two games during the strike, but without any veterans. For this game the Cowboys had Danny White, Randy White, Tony Dorsett, Ed Jones among other veterans, but were upset by the replacement Redskins players, 13-7, in a game former Washington head coach Joe Gibbs called "one of my greatest experiences and wins." The Redskins finished 3–0 with the replacements, the strike ending the following week. The Redskins would go on to win Super Bowl XXII later that season. In 2000, Warner Bros. made a movie loosely based on the 1987 Redskins called "The Replacements."

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=SUPERMUSTI2;657065]Actually I have very fond memories of the scabs! We had the best owner in the NFL or in all sports Jack Kent Cooke; arguably the best front office mastermind in Bobby Beathard ; and future hall of famer Joe Gibbs! Those were the Golden Days! A small reminder

1987-Scab Game: No team in the NFL had more players cross the picket line during the 1987 strike than the Cowboys, who were 2–0 with their "scab" players entering a game with the Redskins on Monday Night Football. Washington had also won their two games during the strike, but without any veterans. For this game the Cowboys had Danny White, Randy White, Tony Dorsett, Ed Jones among other veterans, but were upset by the replacement Redskins players, 13-7, in a game former Washington head coach Joe Gibbs called "one of my greatest experiences and wins." The Redskins finished 3–0 with the replacements, the strike ending the following week. The Redskins would go on to win Super Bowl XXII later that season. In 2000, Warner Bros. made a movie loosely based on the 1987 Redskins called "The Replacements."[/quote]

It turned into a dream season for us, no doubt. Great memories! Welcome to The Warpath SUPERMUST12!

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;657017]Actually don't ask. MLB's revenues now are the highest they have ever been - - and approach those of the NFL. Today, the majority of NHL teams are profitable and that was certainly not the case before the season-long lockout.


The sad reality is that both of those lockouts helped the economics of MLB and the NHL far more than they hurt the economics.


[B]Pissed off fans vent and holler but they don't stay pissed off. They come back and spend their money.[/B][/quote]

I'm just one guy but I have forgiven neither baseball nor the NHL. They haven't seen a penny from me since they disgusted me. Their problems made me more of a soccer and lacrosse fan.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=Lotus;657121][B]I'm just one guy but I have forgiven neither baseball nor the NHL[/B]. They haven't seen a penny from me since they disgusted me. Their problems made me more of a soccer and lacrosse fan.[/quote]

That's funny because I was into baseball a little bit and always watched the World Series. Since the strike I haven't watched 1 complete game and couldn't even tell you who won the World Series last year. That strike really turned me off of baseball.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=Lotus;657121]I'm just one guy but I have forgiven neither baseball nor the NHL. They haven't seen a penny from me since they disgusted me. Their problems made me more of a soccer and lacrosse fan.[/quote]



I reacted slightly differently. I counted the number of days that MLB was on strike and then I doubled that number. For that many days after the players and management settled, I did not give them a dime of my money.


Then I went back to seeing games - - but not at the same rate that I did before the strike for an interesting reason. In my "boycott period", I discovered how interersting it is to watch minor league baseball.


Even today, I see a greater number of minor league baseball games every year than I do major league games - - although I spend far more on the major league games in total than I do for the minor league games.


Sadly, in the DC area, there is no really interesting "minor league football" - - aka college football. Probably the most interesting place to go is Navy; I only do that about once every other year. Maryland used to be interesting but is no longer. Same goes for UVa. Va Tech is just too far to drive in a day. I have gone to see Delaware play a few times too over the years. My sister is an alum and has access to good tix once in a while.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

I watch a lot of NHL games on TV and go to at least a dozen games a year. But it took me awhile. As for baseball, I haven't watched a game since the strike. The disparity is even greater now. I do watch several minor league games a year (I'm fortunate enough to live in an area where there are several leagues).
I think a lockout would hurt the NFL as far as casual fans are concerned but most of us that spend time on boards will still watch the games.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

While these things often go down to the last minute, this one is a lot more likely to go to a lockout because the players are asking for a deal worth more money than they're currently getting. Owners are opting out of the current deal, and asking for a better one. One side is going to have to accept a deal yielding less $ for them than the status quo.

In previous years, impasses have been resolved as they've found a way to ensure both sides get a slight increase. That can't happen this time. Someone's going to lose money, so they're a lot more willing to sit the 2011 season in an effort to avoid that.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

The scab win over the Cowboys is probably one of the best upsets in league history.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=Schneed10;657239]While these things often go down to the last minute, this one is a lot more likely to go to a lockout because the players are asking for a deal worth more money than they're currently getting. Owners are opting out of the current deal, and asking for a better one. One side is going to have to accept a deal yielding less $ for them than the status quo.

In previous years, impasses have been resolved as they've found a way to ensure both sides get a slight increase. That can't happen this time. Someone's going to lose money, so they're a lot more willing to sit the 2011 season in an effort to avoid that.[/quote]

but don't the owners have all the leverage here? if there's a lockout, the owners can still make money - the players dont.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;657249]but don't the owners have all the leverage here? if there's a lockout, the owners can still make money - the players dont.[/quote]Well, the players get their signing bonuses for the life of their contracts whether there are games to be played or not. It's true that if there is a lockout, they won't get their salaries, but that really only kills the players who were just about to become eligible for free agency. I think the players have a majority of the leverage, even though a lockout is techincally due to the owners.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;657310]Well, the players get their signing bonuses for the life of their contracts whether there are games to be played or not. It's true that if there is a lockout, they won't get their salaries, but that really only kills the players who were just about to become eligible for free agency. I think the players have a majority of the leverage, even though a lockout is techincally due to the owners.[/quote]

i've read that the owners will essentially fire/layoff everyone if theres a lockout and they can use the stadiums for other venues to makeup revenues while there's no games. and the owners still get their portion of revenue from tv deals, whether there are games or not. so the owners will still be generating revenue, but without having to pay for player salaries.

the owners seem well-prepared to weather the storm of a lockout. the players, on the other hand, by all reports have not been saving up money to last them through a potential lockout.

my bold prediction is that the lockout last no more than 4-6 games and we still have a 10-12 game season.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=Mattyk;657240]The scab win over the Cowboys is probably one of the best upsets in league history.[/quote]Plus, it inspired The Replacements. So there's that...

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;657249]but don't the owners have all the leverage here? if there's a lockout, [B]the owners can still make money - the players dont[/B].[/quote]

I don't know about that. Overhead (even outside salaries) is pretty high. If they hire scabs, they gotta pay em. Then there's rents, debt servicing. No games = no revenue.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

So why can't the owners and players get on the same page? Is it that the owners want to pay the players less and the players want more money?

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=CultBrennan59;657349]So why can't the owners and players get on the same page? Is it that the owners want to pay the players less and the players want more money?[/quote]

At this point, the owners are causing the problems. They, not the players, opted out of a deal which could have lasted 2 more years. Things are pretty hush hush, but it would seem that the owners have not put a substantial new concept on the table for the players to either approve or decline. It would seem that the owners are awaiting the resolution of the American Needle case before they proceed in any significant way.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

D Smith is on 106.7 now, and his arguments just ring hollow to me. He pointed to healthcare, saying that an NFL player only gets 5years of healthcare coverage after they leave the league. I wish I got 5 years after I leave my company...

Both sides need to just get over it and reach an agreement. (I imagine I will say that a lot over the next year)

Put a lockout chance at 95%

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;687944]D Smith is on 106.7 now, and his arguments just ring hollow to me. He pointed to healthcare, saying that an NFL player only gets 5years of healthcare coverage after they leave the league. I wish I got 5 years after I leave my company...

Both sides need to just get over it and reach an agreement. (I imagine I will say that a lot over the next year)

Put a lockout chance at 95%[/quote]

I'd even say 99%. Only thing stopping me from saying 100% is the fact that you can never say never. But it comes down to this, the owners want the players accept less than their current deal gives them. People don't like taking pay cuts.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

Schneed, I agree. I do think the players will have a rude awakening when they get out of the NFL and see the type of salaries they're extended in the working world.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

Another big part of the problem is that league owners can't even agree amongst themselves on how to share revenue. They won't know how to deal with the players and a cap until they figure that out.

I doubt anything gets done at all this season, and next off-season they will start to get their numbers together and get approval for revenue sharing. Then, after a lockout and court proceedings, they can deal with the players. Expect next year's draft to move up to February to get all draft picks signed before a March 5 lockout.

Next spring and summer will probably be a long slog of bickering and public pandering, courts, Congressional and Presidential involvement, a real soap opera. I still expect football next Septemper. Money always finds a way to flow.

Re: CBA Progress (or Lack thereof)
 

[quote=Mattyk;656883]These things always come down to the last minute.[/quote]

Exactly. There is nothing to worry about YET. Once they missed the last deadline and it rolled into another contract year with a deadline 12 months away, their negotiating intensity died down. They'll make a deal when time is nearly up, it's a tactic both sides use to put pressure on the other side.

There's no real benefit for them to make a deal now, other than simply to get it done. They want to use the time left to their advantage and that only comes into play near the deadline.