Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

I know that Santana is going to get heat over the HGH scandal. In fact, it started on this board before it was announced publically. But here is why I have no ill feelings towards Moss over this.

Santana Moss gave me three "sit on my knee" memories since he has been here. The first one I will mention is the Giant's game at Fed Ex in 2005. Santana had 3 touchdowns (including one from Patrick Ramsey after Brunell was knocked out of the game). That performance beat me for a fantasy championship but, more importantly, kept the momentum going for the Redskins 2005 playoff run.

Second, the Jacksonville home game in 2006. I was there in person and his two touchdowns (including a game winner in overtime) were electrifying. I still remember seeing him put on "circle button" spin moves on helpless defenders. My tickets were near the end zone where he ran in the last touchdown.

Last but not least, the Ring of Honor Sodomization. I will freely admit that I literally fell asleep during that game. Our offense was a joke. The only thing that I vaguely remember in the third quarter was Roy Williams ending a drive or two but for some reason I woke up with about 7 minutes left in the 4th and that was when business picked up. I firmly believe that those two touchdowns gave Gibbs credibility in his second go around. The offense was pathetic in all of 2004 and seemed to continue on that path in 2005. Without those two plays, we do not make the playoffs in 2005. Without those two plays Gibbs may not even coach in 2006.

So, am I going to defend Moss for taking HGH? No. Am I going to badmouth him and treat him like the next "Haynesworth"? No. He allegedly took these treatments to heal. I am not going to hold it against him that he took something to fix his broken down body and extend his career. He has been the Redskins best receiver every year since he has been here. He has paid his dues for this franchise and the fans and he will continue to sacrifice for the Redskins going forward.

Santana Moss has been a great Redskin. He does not have any Championship moments but I am not going to crucify him like Jared LaCanfora's butt buddy, Jason Reid, has. Reid wasn't around here when Moss was winning games and giving a legend some credibility.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

Santana has had some great moments...sadly they've been few and far between. I completely agree with Shanahan's appraisal of the situation -- employing a wait-and-see approach is the most appropriate given the type of investigation this is shaping up to be.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

I don't think the Comish is going to agree with you.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

Tom Brady

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

I mean look at it.. the guy didn't get bigger faster stronger.. you can pop cortisone and any number of pain killers and be fine but can't use something to actually promote healing? So assbackwards, thanks American medical system.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

HE HAD A TUMOR!!!! That's right, Moss had a tumor.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

I like some of the points of the OP, who has stated for the record that Moss has been a great redskin. This is obviously true.

However, being a great player, or a fan favorite, should not get him a free pass. Marvin Harrison is one of the best of all times, and definatley a fan favorite, but questions surrounding him and a shooting have kept him out of the game since then...he had to be held accountable.

Ben was popular up in Pittsburgh until the rape happened. My point is, players that go off and do these dumb things know that sooner or later they are going to get caught. Santana, for all that he is, fan favorite and all, knew that HGH was a banned substance and using it in ANY way, even to heal, would certainly be against the league's policy.

I think we will see at least a 4 game suspension when it is all said and done.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=NM Redskin;702538]I don't think the Comish is going to agree with you.[/quote]

I agree with you about that. If he used them, he deserves 4 games. My thought is that he does not deserve the holier than though criticism that always comes with instances like this.

If his choice was to do these treatments or possibly have to retire, I don't blame him one bit. Moss' game has always been based on elite speed. You take that away, he is marginal at best.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=tryfuhl;702541]Tom Brady[/quote]

Is Brady the big name? I haven't seen it come out yet but it certainly would make sense. It will be interesting to see how the NFL protects the Golden Boy in this situation.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;702553]I like some of the points of the OP, who has stated for the record that Moss has been a great redskin. This is obviously true.

However, being a great player, or a fan favorite, should not get him a free pass. Marvin Harrison is one of the best of all times, and definatley a fan favorite, but questions surrounding him and a shooting have kept him out of the game since then...he had to be held accountable.

Ben was popular up in Pittsburgh until the rape happened. My point is, players that go off and do these dumb things know that sooner or later they are going to get caught. Santana, for all that he is, fan favorite and all, knew that HGH was a banned substance and using it in ANY way, even to heal, would certainly be against the league's policy.

I think we will see at least a 4 game suspension when it is all said and done.[/quote]


See, I don't think you can compare Moss to Big Blumpkin and Marvin Harrison. The allegations that they are fighting are in a different category. The sad thing is that the league treats a guy who may have raped a woman the same as a guy who wanted to extend his career.

My understanding is that Moss used these treatments to rehab an injury. There is a difference. Now if he was using them his whole career, I would view it differently.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;702544]HE HAD A TUMOR!!!! That's right, Moss had a tumor.[/quote]

what?

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

Moss has certainly given the Redskins some great moments (but he's also had boneheaded "take off my helmet on the field, jump up and down, and pout" moments), and I understand the temptations and pressures to stay on the field. Still....there were plenty of other players under those same pressures and temptations who didn't succumb.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

the bottom line is he used a banned substance. now it obviously wasnt for malicious intent, or to gain an edge like these guys that use PED's, but he still should have known better.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

I don't think it matters how much we love him or hate him. The facts are the facts. Did he use or was given a substance thats on the banned list? If yes then to be fair he should be punished. The only reason Cushing is getting bashed is the fact that he received a reward and has excepted it. Even after his issues came to light and everyone found out he cheated/used and banned substance. If Moss was in the same boat to be fair I'd say the same things about Moss.

Is Moss an evil person? No. Did he use if to get bigger or faster? I doubt it, atleast until all the facts come out. Was it for personal gain? Technically yes. It, I presume, was to help him heal faster and if its on the banned list then we have to lable him a cheater.

I have my own reasons for thinking we should move on from Moss. Part of it is age, part when I think of him I think of him often injured with a hammy or groin pull. Last yr did not do him service in Zorn's crappy offense either. It seemed teams doubled up him. I hope if and when he starts to play this yr he comes out guns a blazing. That would be a big step in me forgetting his past few yrs.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=SBXVII;702591]I don't think it matters how much we love him or hate him. The facts are the facts. Did he use or was given a substance thats on the banned list? If yes then to be fair he should be punished. The only reason Cushing is getting bashed is the fact that he received a reward and has excepted it. Even after his issues came to light and everyone found out he cheated/used and banned substance. If Moss was in the same boat to be fair I'd say the same things about Moss.

Is Moss an evil person? No. Did he use if to get bigger or faster? I doubt it, atleast until all the facts come out. Was it for personal gain? Technically yes. It, I presume, was to help him heal faster and if its on the banned list then we have to lable him a cheater.

I have my own reasons for thinking we should move on from Moss. Part of it is age, part when I think of him I think of him often injured with a hammy or groin pull. Last yr did not do him service in Zorn's crappy offense either. It seemed teams doubled up him. I hope if and when he starts to play this yr he comes out guns a blazing. That would be a big step in me forgetting his past few yrs.[/quote]

He's slowed more than a step, and while still quick, his frequent hamstring and groin injuries make him no more than a solid number 2 receiver, maybe even a 3rd at this stage in his career. He seems like a good guy, and he would be a good mentor to the young receivers. He has been in some big games and made good plays, and has tons of advice to give..

I still think the team should sign T.O. to fill in while Moss is gone. Most likely T.O. plays so well that we can integrate them both.....

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

Maybe nows the time for the league to look into having specific doctors for the most common ailments players get. The players visit those doctors only and get treated by them. Kinda like an HMO. These would be doctors that work for the league and know the rules. If a player or team has any question about the drugs or vitamines they are interested in taking then the doctor should be able to answer the question for them. Hopefully it would also eliminate players getting their hands on substances that are on the banned list. If a player is found to have used after all that then it's definitly on the player for "cheating."

If the player chooses to use his own doctor then he runs the risk of getting into trouble and punished if he takes a banned prescription drug.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

Moss has been probably my favorite Redskin over the last decade, but if he cheated he should first come out and state it and give an explination why. Then he should be punished by the commish, probably looking at 4 games. No pass here. I think he probably used to get through injury, but cheating is cheating...

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=SmootSmack;702560]Moss has certainly given the Redskins some great moments (but he's also had boneheaded "take off my helmet on the field, jump up and down, and pout" moments), and I understand the temptations and pressures to stay on the field. Still....there were plenty of other players under those same pressures and temptations who didn't succumb.[/quote]

His current situation is synonymous with your description. Players need to understand the importance of making good decisions. The decision by Moss to be involved in the use of HGH was a bad one, the consequences are his alone.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

This is why I cannot get mad at him.

[quote]>> The player told authorities he never knowingly received HGH. He got IV drips, injections to his knees, and B-12 shots to his arm.[/quote]

[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/canadian-doctor-charged-with-s.html"]Redskins Insider - Canadian doctor charged with supplying HGH was traveling to treat player in Washington[/URL]

It's not like he was doping up with it with the intent of making himself stronger or a better athlete. He was trying to get healthy and wrongfully trusted a doctor in the process. Judging from what I think I know of his character he just doesn't seem like the guy who would try to cheat to put up big numbers. His play on the field didn't reflect that of an abuser either.

To be fair though he should have to serve a 2-4 game suspension because the rules are the rules. In my mind however, I am never going to look at Tanna differently because he is a good character guy.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=Angry;702604]This is why I cannot get mad at him.



[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/canadian-doctor-charged-with-s.html"]Redskins Insider - Canadian doctor charged with supplying HGH was traveling to treat player in Washington[/URL]

[B]It's not like he was doping up with it with the intent of making himself stronger or a better athlete.[/B] He was trying to get healthy and wrongfully trusted a doctor in the process. Judging from what I think I know of his character he just doesn't seem like the guy who would try to cheat to put up big numbers. His play on the field didn't reflect that of an abuser either.

To be fair though he should have to serve a 2-4 game suspension because the rules are the rules. In my mind however, I am never going to look at Tanna differently because he is a good character guy.[/quote]

I know very little about HGH and other types of illegal substances like HGH, so I do not pretend to be an expert. So I went on line to read a little about it. The first some what trusted news source (wall street journal) article I found says there is now Clinical proof that HGH does improve certain athletic skills like SPRINTING by 4%.

From the article.

"New England Journal of Medicine study published two decades ago found HGH had anti-aging effects on men over 60. That sparked the creation of an entire industry, notable for its testimonials by creepy-looking men who seem to have acquired 40-year-old bodies beneath their 65-year-old heads. (Some of those claims have sparked a warning appended to the NEJM study saying the research has “been cited in potentially misleading e-mail advertisements.”)

But there wasn’t much evidence to show that HGH did much to make athletes run faster, jump higher or hit more home runs, as the Health Blog reported in 2008. That is, until earlier this month, when researchers published the first evidence suggesting HGH has limited effects on athletic performance.

The randomized trial of more than 100 recreational athletes of both sexes was sponsored by the World Anti-Doping Agency (which bans the use of HGH in competitive athletes) and published in the Annals of Internal Medicine. It found that growth hormone improved sprinting ability by about 4% but not other measures of athletic performance the researchers tracked, such as endurance, strength or power. Men who also got testosterone injections saw an 8% boost in sprinting performance. Researchers said the study was too small to gauge the safety of HGH; side effects reported by study participants were minor and included swelling and joint pain.

It’s not clear whether the same results would translate to elite athletes, [B]but the researchers told the AP that applying the improvement to a 10-second, 100-meter sprint would make the difference between winning and finishing last.[/B]

[url=http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2010/05/19/does-human-growth-hormone-actually-do-anything-for-athletes/]Does Human Growth Hormone Actually Do Anything for Athletes? - Health Blog - WSJ[/url]

Sorry this post is so long. I think we need more research on this to make a definitive claim, but clearly almost every legitimate sport has banned HGH. There is a reason . I do not think we can say Moss should get a pass on this just because he was using for injury.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

I am not gonna give Moss a pass....but I also don't really care. I just don't. I didn't care when Merriman got caught, I didnt care when Cushing got caught, I dont care now that Moss got caught. Moss broke the rules, he should face the same types of penalties anyone else does. If it comes out Tom Brady was with this guy, he should be right there too. Do I wish the game was 100% clean, without a doubt. I wish there was not a single drug in any sport... but I know thats never going to be a realistic thing, so I just am kind of over it right off the bat.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Angry
This is why I cannot get mad at him.



Redskins Insider - Canadian doctor charged with supplying HGH was traveling to treat player in Washington

It's not like he was doping up with it with the intent of making himself stronger or a better athlete. He was trying to get healthy and wrongfully trusted a doctor in the process. Judging from what I think I know of his character he just doesn't seem like the guy who would try to cheat to put up big numbers. His play on the field didn't reflect that of an abuser either.

To be fair though he should have to serve a 2-4 game suspension because the rules are the rules. In my mind however, I am never going to look at Tanna differently because he is a good character guy.[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=Pocket$ $traight;702554]I agree with you about that. If he used them, he deserves 4 games. My thought is that he does not deserve the holier than though criticism that always comes with instances like this.

If his choice was to do these treatments or possibly have to retire, I don't blame him one bit. Moss' game has always been based on elite speed. You take that away, he is marginal at best.[/quote]


I agree with you...there is a precedent about HGH suspensions already and the fact is they ARE banned, even if he used them for healing an injury instead of cheating/performance enhancement.

He took a gamble and because the doc is in trouble himself, he'll get caught because of that. I'm convinced players all around the league also use them for injuries, not necessarily to become faster/stronger/better. The gamble is relying on the doctor himself not getting in any legal trouble and outing you. Most players won't have to go through this, but many will and that's where the real risk of getting caught comes from. Since there is no test, the NFL has to rely on the legal system to locate these offenses. It's a crapshoot. The players know this but getting over injuries so they can keep playing or come back quicker, with minimal punishment even if caught, makes it worth it.

Moss will not be any different in my eyes because I know he's one of many, or MOST players around the league and even on the Redskins who use this for injuries. We're not talking about steroids or performance enhancing cheating, it's medical treatment...nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=Gmanc711;702615]I am not gonna give Moss a pass....but I also don't really care. I just don't. I didn't care when Merriman got caught, I didnt care when Cushing got caught, I dont care now that Moss got caught. Moss broke the rules, he should face the same types of penalties anyone else does. If it comes out Tom Brady was with this guy, he should be right there too. Do I wish the game was 100% clean, without a doubt. I wish there was not a single drug in any sport... but I know thats never going to be a realistic thing, so I just am kind of over it right off the bat.[/quote]

You're mixing things up here.

Merriman, Cushing = roids = blatant cheating, gained strength and ability
Moss = HGH = injury treatment, no performance benefits

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

People need to understand that HGH is not steriods ... i hate all the fuss about HGH .. if there is something out there that can help a player or person heal at all why not use this ? Why is not legal period. Steroids are a different animal...........Moss will not even sniff a suspension on this matter .. they don't test for HGH so wtf did you do against the rules ?? I'll await your responses....

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=Buster;702630]You're mixing things up here.

Merriman, Cushing = roids = blatant cheating, gained strength and ability
Moss = HGH = injury treatment, no performance benefits[/quote]

You're right but HGH does have the ability to increase athletic performance, it all depends on the application of the drug. We lump those who might be using HGH for rehabilitation purposes in with those who use if for performance enhancing purposes because the NFL PED policy makes no differentiation, using is using. It's also hard to determine at what point the application of HGH is no longer necessary to rehab the injury, meaning if the injury has healed and the drug continues to be applied then you could be enhancing performance.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=Angry;702604]This is why I cannot get mad at him.



[URL="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/canadian-doctor-charged-with-s.html"]Redskins Insider - Canadian doctor charged with supplying HGH was traveling to treat player in Washington[/URL]

It's not like he was doping up with it with the intent of making himself stronger or a better athlete. He was trying to get healthy and wrongfully trusted a doctor in the process. Judging from what I think I know of his character he just doesn't seem like the guy who would try to cheat to put up big numbers. His play on the field didn't reflect that of an abuser either.

To be fair though he should have to serve a 2-4 game suspension because the rules are the rules. In my mind however, I am never going to look at Tanna differently because he is a good character guy.[/quote]

I like most of have only know about Hgh thru what i read from sports reporters in their sports articles. i thought, like the article defensewins links, Hgh can provide an enhancement, however the benefit is marginal or small. (marginal compared to what? roids?).

but if santana was only getting IV drips, etc and not HgHG, why did he have to set up appointments with this canadian doctor in hotel rooms in DC? why couldnt he just get IV drips from the skins training staff or any local medical provider?

I dont know if santana was doing it to heal, enhance his body or both but like redskins134425 and i said earlier, there seems to be no way of telling how much and where a person injected HgH so a player is always going to say he was doing it to rehab and speed up healing of an injury.

Dcto AZ - the rodney harrison suspension is almost identical to moss'. while there is no current test for HgH which the NFL has adopted, if a player admits to using it or is under investigation by the feds, that right there is your positive test. santana already admitted to using HgH to feds in sept. '09 (i believe). we'll just have to wait and see how this shakes out but if there are 20 someodd nfl players on the list of players this doctor has treated (one being a huge name in the nfl), this could get messier and bigger real quick.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

As of about 12:30 PM, the other name being tossed out there is Tom Brady.....

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

1230 yesterday heh

HGH is usually taken in conjunction with other things for performance

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=Buster;702630]You're mixing things up here.

Merriman, Cushing = roids = blatant cheating, gained strength and ability
Moss = HGH = injury treatment, no performance benefits[/quote]

Its still not a legal substance. As I stated I really dont care all that much, and I dont view Moss any differently now than I did last week at this time...but I have a feeling if this was Roy Williams or Jason Witten or soemthing, we might be singing a little bit of a different tune.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

I just want to reiterate that I do believe that Moss deserves a suspension if it is handed down. I'm just saying that I do not believe that it was his intent to cheat.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

No Marlboro Man for the Cowboys season opener is my fear.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=Angry;702667]I just want to reiterate that I do believe that Moss deserves a suspension if it is handed down. I'm just saying that [B]I do not believe that it was his intent to cheat[/B].[/quote]

But the result is cheating. It has been clinically proven the use of HGH alone with no other additive does provide a 4% increase in running speed. Now if someone is going to say well if you inject this way or that way or snort it....:)
There has to be a line drawn somewhere. It is illegal to use it and no way to test for it or control the use. It needs to stay illegal.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

Looking back at all sports, not just football, you'll see that on most occasions, these "illegal performance enhancing" substances were used to expedite healing from an injury. But none-the-less, it is still an illegal drug obtained illegally. No matter what the intended use.

But I cannot endorse any suspension by the league without evidence.

Has Moss failed any league mandated drug tests? Do they have any evidence they he actually received these treatments?

Players who ARE suspended for performance enhancing drugs, like Brian Cushing and Shawne Merriman, were all implicated by POSITIVE drug testing and by league testing rules and procedures already in place.

As far as I know, all they have on Moss is an afadavit. In other words, this guy said he did, but other than that, there is no physical eveidence this ever took place.

So until the league endorses using "word of mouth" as fool proof eveidence of illegal activity, LEAVE MOSS ALONE AND LET THE MAN PLAY FOOTBALL!

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=Defensewins;702696]But the result is cheating. It has been clinically proven the use of HGH alone with no other additive does provide a 4% increase in running speed. Now if someone is going to say well if you inject this way or that way or snort it....:)
There has to be a line drawn somewhere. It is illegal to use it and no way to test for it or control the use. It needs to stay illegal.[/quote]

Let me rephrase, I do not believe that he knew that he was being injected with HGH. Regardless he should still be punished because he is responsible for what goes into his body.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=sandtrapjack;702697]Looking back at all sports, not just football, you'll see that on most occasions, these "illegal performance enhancing" substances were used to expedite healing from an injury. But none-the-less, it is still an illegal drug obtained illegally. No matter what the intended use.

[B]But I cannot endorse any suspension by the league without evidence.[/B]

Has Moss failed any league mandated drug tests? Do they have any evidence they he actually received these treatments?

Players who ARE suspended for performance enhancing drugs, like Brian Cushing and Shawne Merriman, were all implicated by POSITIVE drug testing and by league testing rules and procedures already in place.

As far as I know, all they have on Moss is an afadavit. In other words, this guy said he did, but other than that, there is no physical eveidence this ever took place.

So until the league endorses using "word of mouth" as fool proof eveidence of illegal activity, LEAVE MOSS ALONE AND LET THE MAN PLAY FOOTBALL![/quote]
I understand your point and it is a legitimate point. But as Ben Roethlisburger is finding out the hard way (LOL!) you do not have to be convicted or have proof positive. It is the illegal or behavior that can get you in trouble. Plus, correct me if I am wrong, but there currently is no test for certain substances that are on the banned list. So....

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

Sandtrap, I agree. I hate that the NFL can suspend people for 'giving the shield a bad name.' While I don't necessarily need a conviction in a court of law, I do need to see significant evidence before suspending anyone. That goes for everyone, past and present, that has been suspended.

That being said, as far as not knowing about HGH or it 'just helping him heal'. HGH is on the banned substances list for a reason. To say he didn't know is a tough pill to swallow. Everyone knows what this Dr. does. If he was really getting blood spinning done, tons of places that are well known and reputable can do blood spinning. This Dr. is a known provider of HGH and I think Moss took it.

We'll wait to see what comes out before I make a determination one way or another, but I think letting him completely off the hook isn't the right way to go. Would you have that same stance if this was Roy Williams from the Cowboys? Steve Smith from the Giants? DeShawn Jackson of the Eagles? I doubt it, you'd want a 4 game suspension, as long as sufficient evidence can be presented.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;702656]As of about 12:30 PM, the other name being tossed out there is Tom Brady.....[/quote]

Ha, I'll give up Santana for a month to see the pretty boy finally get nailed for something.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

I really don't care if the guy injected it. How many guys in the NFL are taking HGH? Probably a lot of them cause they don't test for it. So does it really matter? All this does is gives the media and the fans something to talk about.

Re: Why Santana Moss gets a free pass...
 

[quote=Angry;702699]Let me rephrase, I do not believe that he knew that he was being injected with HGH.[/quote]


Ok,then why have a Doctor or his assistant fly in from Canada to give you a shot ?