Should We Go After Another QB in Offseason
 

Many people expect us to go after Brees...should we??? Providing Ramsey and Brunell don't impress, who's an option for qb next year? Draft sux, plus gibbs doesn't have time to rebuild

No

It really depends on Brunnel's health and what Gibbs is really thinking about Ramsey. I think that the teams we are getting ready to face are going to force us to throw. When that happens, Brunnel is going to take some hits and I've already seen him come up limping a couple of times. I'm not sure if he can hold up for three years (or even this year). The way Gibb's thinks, he will either 1) Not go after another QB and that means he really is happy with grooming Ramsey or, 2) Draft or aquire another QB and get rid of Ramsey. I think Brunnel is staying like it or not. I hope Ramsey stays too. I guess well see.

i dunno, brees is having an amazing season...and if hes not starting ramsey now...makes u wonder

Thats why we should be playing Ramsey now. Lets see what we have before we get rid of it.... we know Brunell is not the future, Ramsey is a question mark.... lets awnser that question now so we know what we have to do in the offseason.

I really wouldnt want to get Breese. He is having an amazing season, but I dont know if this is somthing that he can keep up.

Yes. Brunell 's salary will hurt us against the cap if he leaves within three years but I just can't see Brunell starting next year unless he gets an arm and leg transplant. So another QB would be the best option. But we get another rookie and dump Ramsey? That's a question that has probably entered the coaching staffs mind numerous times this year. Warner's contract is up but that's like shooting yourself in the foot again. Brees would probably be the best choice .

In all honesty, the only way we can even think about looking at another QB is if Brunell decides to retire. There is no way we could afford the CAP hit (somewhere around 7 million or so if I am not mistaken) if we release or trade (not that anyone would take him the way he is playing and the cost of his contract) Brunell. The only thing we can do is hope he finds a way to earn his paycheck.

The next 2 years are really going to hurt us if the Salary Cap isn't increased. We have a lot a big time talent (like Smoot) that aren't getting paid what they deserve. And don't think Pierce and the other players that have stepped up this year won't ask for a bigger contract. I am really concerned what is going to happen with the Cap and all. I think Brunell's contract is really going to hurt us even if he never takes another snap.

[QUOTE=Big C]i dunno, brees is having an amazing season...and if hes not starting ramsey now...makes u wonder[/QUOTE]

I wonder where all the Bree's fan's were last season, apparently he was worse than Ramsey, now all of a sudden he's Johnny U. makes you wonder what playing time and experience in a system can do for a QB's development, he would look great in burgondy and gold sitting on the bench while he learn's a new system, and the way Brunell is fighting his gut's out I don't see anyway Bree's could unseat Brunell. :stop:

Here's the really big question for all the anti Ramsey pro Bree's guy's out there, why did the Charger's draft Phillip River's? Take your time. :D

I guess the fact that Ramsey has made no dent here is good sign that he has no real future with the Redskins. We will be on the upswing by next year and will not have time for Ramsey to develop, because the team will be held back. So the best thing for Ramsey is probably to get traded to a team that will give him some practice snaps and a shot at the starting lineup.

I think we will probably trade for another veteran, draft a quarterback at some level, and give Hasselbeck a legitimate shot to compete in training camp.

I think we spent as much as we can spend on QBs with regard to salary cap space. Brunell's big contract isn't going to go away. We didn't pay him a 9.1 million dollar signing bonus to start for one year then be a backup for the rest of his contract. But can we afford to release him?

Ramsey is due to make 3.5 million over the next two years...which is pretty hefty for someone who can't beat out Brunell despite his terrible performance.

Hasselbeck is not starter material. Period.

I think we have to think about looking at a mid to late round QB to draft and hope we get lucky.

If we were to cut Brunell after this season, we'd probably wait to cut Brunell until after June 1st so as to defer the cap hit (of about $6 million) until the 2006 season. Even still, its going to be a monster hit. I don't see us cutting him until June 1st of the 2006 season so as to delay the cap hit to 2007.

That said, I don't believe we should go after Brees. First, we've still got Ramsey and I don't want to change my screenname. Second, he's going to cost an arm, a leg, and a HIGH draft pick. Third, he's only played well in one half of one season. Stick it out with Ramsey.

I'd be much happier right now if we had let Ramsey progress and see if he will work out. David Carr, Joey Harrington, and Drew Brees have all improved by leaps and bounds. I wonder where Ramsey would be right now if he had logged the game time that those three have.

This is probably just speculation, but here's an exact quote from the NFL Hot Reads section in the latest issue of ESPN The Magazine:

[QUOTE]You'd think Drew Brees picked the right time to be a FA. Think again. The struggling Bucs (happy with Chris Simms and Brian Griese, Dolphins (financially tied up in A.J. Feeley) and 49ers (still unwilling to give up on Tim Rattay) may stay out of the market. The No. 1 opportunity: The Redskins[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure why they say the Fins are financially tied up in Feeley but don't mention that we are with Brunell. We are, aren't we?

[quote=Shane]I guess the fact that Ramsey has made no dent here is good sign that he has no real future with the Redskins. We will be on the upswing by next year and will not have time for Ramsey to develop, because the team will be held back. So the best thing for Ramsey is probably to get traded to a team that will give him some practice snaps and a shot at the starting lineup.

I think we will probably trade for another veteran, draft a quarterback at some level, and give Hasselbeck a legitimate shot to compete in training camp.[/quote]
completely disagree... if you think ramsey doesn't have a future cause he's not starting now, what makes you think hasslebeck has a future here???

I think he's just giving him time, otherwise he would have traded him in preseason or over the first 6 weeks (bears, miami, etc)... i'd love to see him play to know where we're at... and btw, we couldn't afford brees no matter how much we wanted him (He has one 300 yard game over two years i think... he's had a good 8 games, but not worth what he's going to be asking for...)

[quote]I'm not sure why they say the Fins are financially tied up in Feeley but don't mention that we are with Brunell. We are, aren't we?[/quote]
compared to feeley? YES, and YES... brunell's contract is the worst decision of the last two-three years... its soo inflated... he's not half as good as manning, but he gets paid like it ;)

Just because Ramsey is not starting doesnt meen we should go out shopping for a new QB who would come in here and have to learn the Gibbs system and the hype surrounding Brees is strange given he has had one good year.

Ramsey is learning the system he is the future he is being given the thing he has never been given and that is time . To put him in before he is not ready will further erode his confidence one thing Brunell is doing well right now is taking the heat from the fans allowing the team to find its identity.

We need consistancy Manning, Farve, Caulpeper, McNabb, McNair all have one thing in common... consistancy. Ramsey has the tools to be a great QB but they nearly got beaten out of him running the collage system he was in the last two years. Ramsey is learning more on the side lines than he could durring the game and okay he is running the scout team in practice but he is still running the Gibbs offence. A confident Ramsey in my mind is better than the unknown of a Drew Brees in a contract year.

we definately need to improve.

Brunell is well, playing horrible. and we really don't know what Patrick can do. I would like to see us grab one in the 2nd round.

Think about what Ramsey was looking like at this point last year. Before the defenses totally figured out the system and got hurt he was having a great passing year. Now you guys are looking at a guy who is looks good only half way through this year as his potential replacement? :stop:

Absolutely not.

Brunell's cap hit is too big for the next three years, and Gibbs has been through too much crap for the Brunell trade [i]and[/i] keeping Ramsey on the bench (to groom him for when his time comes-- and it [i]will[/i] come) to go through that again with another young quarterback that he won't be comfortable with as a starter next season.

If you think Gibbs is enduring too much criticism now for the whole Brunell debacle, imagine how much more intense that criticism will become if he makes a move to acquire another young-- and expensive-- quarterback who will have to spend another season being groomed while Brunell continues to start.

If you believe that Gibbs' word is bond and his decisions are above reproach-- which is the mantra I've been hearing from a lot of folks through this whole mess-- then why would Gibbs say that Patrick Ramsey is the future of the Redskins franchise (and he has said that more than once, and in the not-so-distant past), if he isn't indeed the future of the Redskins franchise?

If you think Gibbs is just saying that because "it's the right thing to say right now," then I guess he's just blowing smoke up our collective butt about how Brunell's "fighting his guts out" and "is the best chance for this team to win right now" too, isn't he?

I think that Joe believed his statement to be true when he made it. But from the sounds of it, his opinion of Ramsey may have changed for the worse over the course of camp and the season so far. There were reports of him thinking Ramsey was too cocky and not practising well. I love Joe, but I don't believe that he is going to keep his word to Patrick if he doesn't believe that he gives the Redskins their best chance to win.

[QUOTE=joecrisp]

If you believe that Gibbs' word is bond and his decisions are above reproach-- which is the mantra I've been hearing from a lot of folks through this whole mess-- then why would Gibbs say that Patrick Ramsey is the future of the Redskins franchise (and he has said that more than once, and in the not-so-distant past), if he isn't indeed the future of the Redskins franchise?

If you think Gibbs is just saying that because "it's the right thing to say right now," then I guess he's just blowing smoke up our collective butt about how Brunell's "fighting his guts out" and "is the best chance for this team to win right now" too, isn't he?[/QUOTE]

Bringing in yet another new QB is only going to stunt the growth and development of the foundation of the team that is trying to be established this season.

I really don't see Gibbs staying past his 5-year committment, so year 2 and 3 are critical years. I believe the team needs to take serious strides forward in those years, bringing a new QB in to the mix isn't going to help. Not when we've seen the way our QB's have struggled in learning the system this year.

We have consistency now... it's just not the kind of consistency we're looking for. 3 of the last 4 games under 100 yds passing. I'd sacrafice consistency right now for sporadic positive performance.

[QUOTE=bedlamVR]
We need consistancy Manning, Farve, Caulpeper, McNabb, McNair all have one thing in common... consistancy. Ramsey has the tools to be a great QB but they nearly got beaten out of him running the collage system he was in the last two years. Ramsey is learning more on the side lines than he could durring the game and okay he is running the scout team in practice but he is still running the Gibbs offence. A confident Ramsey in my mind is better than the unknown of a Drew Brees in a contract year.[/QUOTE]

we cant afford another qb so lets hope that brunell steps up, or Ramsey is learning a ton by sitting out this year.

[QUOTE=EEich]I think that Joe believed his statement to be true when he made it. But from the sounds of it, his opinion of Ramsey may have changed for the worse over the course of camp and the season so far. There were reports of him thinking Ramsey was too cocky and not practising well. I love Joe, but I don't believe that he is going to keep his word to Patrick if he doesn't believe that he gives the Redskins their best chance to win.[/QUOTE]
I posted this quote in a similar thread (what's the official count on Brunell vs. Ramsey threads up to now?:cheeky-sm ), but I think it bears repeating here:

[URL=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29165-2004Nov5.html]The Washington Post, November 6th[/URL]

[QUOTE=The Washington Post]Ramsey has impressed the coaches by increasing his knowledge of the system despite his limited role, Gibbs said, and he has looked good running the opposition's plays with the scout team.

"Is it ideal for him? No," Gibbs said of Ramsey. "Would you like to get him some reps in practice, yeah. But if you do that, I've found, you're taking a 10 percent thing and trying to project and you're going to take away [snaps] in practice every week, and you really can't do that to the starter. He's been great as far as attitude and everything, he's been terrific, and those guys are always one play away. It's a tough thing to go through, but that's part of the quarterback position." [/QUOTE]
Ramsey is not the starter because he didn't outplay Brunell in the preseason games, and Gibbs named Brunell the regular season starter because of Gibbs's higher comfort level with more experienced quarterbacks. Since Brunell was named the starter, Ramsey has had scant opportunity to prove himself on the field (outside of the two quarters against New York, when he came in to relieve an injured Brunell and overcome a 13-point deficit, and struggled-- which undoubtedly had at least a little to do with his lack of practice reps leading up to the game), and that is why Gibbs is reluctant to play Ramsey-- he has a known on-the-field quantity in Brunell, even if that quantity is not impressive. Otherwise, Gibbs has given every indication that Ramsey is doing everything he needs to do in the classroom, on the sidelines, and with the limited opportunities he has in practice.

Although I disagree with Gibbs's decision to continue starting Brunell, I have every confidence that his reluctance to play Ramsey is motivated by a desire to set up Ramsey for future success with this team, rather than an indication that his future lies elsewhere. Gibbs will not play Ramsey this season unless Brunell is injured (no, not even if the Redskins are mathematically eliminated from playoff contention-- Gibbs doesn't believe in that "let's get ready for next year" philosophy), and he will wait until next year's minicamps and training camp practices-- where Ramsey will get more practice reps-- to see if Ramsey is ready to apply on the field all that he has learned in the classroom, and is clearly the best choice at quarterback to win games for the Redskins next season.

Until that time, Gibbs will only give this team and its fans two options-- Brunell or bust.

I think that Brees will be a successful NFL quarterback. He did a great job at Purdue. He was never a blue chip prospect and I don't see him lighting up teams ala Peyton but I do believe he can be a solid, dependable qb on a good team. That said, I think we're good with Ramsey, always have. If Brees has shown anything, it's that a struggling qb, given time, can begin to flourish once he's comfortable in a system. (and Marty Ball isn't exactly the greatest show on turf) I believe we should soon give PR the keys and see what he does with them. Practice is great and a fundamental part of the game. BUT there are such things as gamers and until we put PR out there with the first team, with the bullets flying, so to speak, for a whole game with the first team offense and not starting out 2 scores down and his back against the wall like in the Giants game- we won't REALLY know anything. (Now that's a run-on sentence kids, in case you were wondering.)

the problem with the 'skins over the past few years, which oddly enough coincide with snyder's tenure is that there is no team chemistry. we've proved each and every year that you can't just plop the all-madden team in (or in brunell's case the one from '98) and expect to win the super bowl. do what the eagles and pats do and use what you got. obviously some improvements are necessary but i think ramsey is a gamer and can definitely carry this team. so let's use our crew!

[QUOTE=me]Gibbs will not play Ramsey this season unless Brunell is injured (no, not even if the Redskins are mathematically eliminated from playoff contention-- Gibbs doesn't believe in that "let's get ready for next year" philosophy), and he will wait until next year's minicamps and training camp practices-- where Ramsey will get more practice reps-- to see if Ramsey is ready to apply on the field all that he has learned in the classroom, and is clearly the best choice at quarterback to win games for the Redskins next season.

Until that time, Gibbs will only give this team and its fans two options-- Brunell or bust.[/QUOTE]Alright, since no one else has jumped on this golden opportunity to stuff my foot firmly in my mouth, I'll do it for myself.

Just when I thought I had Gibbs figured out, he goes and puts Ramsey in the game!

Here's hoping he continues to prove me wrong, and lets Ramsey practice as the starter for at least this week.

No new QB in the off-season....unless it's a mid to late round draft pick "project" to develop to be Ramsey's back-up in 2-3 years.

[QUOTE=SkinsRock]No new QB in the off-season....unless it's a mid to late round draft pick "project" to develop to be Ramsey's back-up in 2-3 years.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Unless Ramsey is so bad that Gibbs has to go to Hasselbeck this season, I can't foresee him looking to throw more money at another veteran quarterback this offseason. He will do the right thing and give Ramsey another offseason to develop in the system. I wouldn't be surprised if he took a quarterback in the mid-rounds next spring to groom as Ramsey's backup and keep on the practice squad until he can compete with Hasselbeck/Brunell for the 2nd and 3rd QB spot.

Bring Back Gibran!!!

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin]Bring Back Gibran!!![/QUOTE]

You've got to be joking..

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]You've got to be joking..[/QUOTE]

Ummmm, yes. :cheeky-sm

Unless your Peyton Manning or Ben R., it takes some time to play QB (as in several-seven yrs). Lets give P. Ramsey some time under this system. Make a decision after the season. If Ramsey shows some good signs lets not go out and spend more $. Keep Hasselbeck as the 2nd!! Brunell 3rd.

Two points here:

POINT # !: Someone said that Brunell was being paid like Manning. You must be referring to Archie Manning and his pension from the NFL.

I'll defer to Crazy Canuck here for the exact numbers but I believe that Peyton Manning got a $34M [B]signing bonus [/B] in his last deal. The total value of the deal is somewhere north of $100M. Brunell's bonus was about $8M and the total package was probably not worth $34M. Danny Boy has been known to overpay for players, but even he did not bid that high for Mark Brunell.

Eli Manning got a $20M signing bonus with the Giants and something on the order of a $40M total package. Once again, that is more than Brunell got.

So he isn't getting "paid like Manning" and it would have been folly for anyone to believe that he would perform like Peyton Manning this year.


POINT #2: Brees stunk last year and now is having a great year in his "contract year". That is exactly the pattern followed by Brian Griese in Denver and that did not work out very well once he signed and got his big contract. Brees is probably better than Griese but I do not think he is the reincarnation of Johnny Unitas. Someone will overpay for him in the off-season and don't bet against Danny Boy being the one with the drooling wallet.

You guys made a lot of good points in this thread. Here's my take.

Brunell - He's a $3.4M cap hit in 2005, so to eat $7.1M in dead cap to cut him doesn't make much sense. 2006 is our trouble year so pushing the bulk of the dead money there doesn't help either. I agree with Ramseyfan that the only logical solution would be to keep Brunell on as a backup in 2005, then cut him after June 1st 2006. We'd eat $1.4M in dead cap in 2006 and $4.3M in 2007.

Ramsey - We have Ramsey signed through 2006. But I think Gibbs will know sooner than that if Ramsey has a future with the Skins. Hopefully PR steps up and shows Gibbs he's the QB of the future. If he plays well enough they sign him to an extension in the offseason or midway through next year and everyone's happy. :food-smil

If not, the Skins will have to make some decisions. I can't see Gibbs going back to the draft for a QB and starting all over. I figure they give Ramsey until midway next year to show what he's got, and if he's not the man they trade him and bring in another vet QB for 2006. :doh:

If Gibbs really sees nothing in Ramsey the rest of this year it is conceivable they could go after a QB in the offseason. Believe it or not, they could probably afford it since the cap hits are usually smallest in the first couple years of the contract.

[QUOTE=CrazyCanuck]You guys made a lot of good points in this thread. Here's my take.

Brunell - He's a $3.4M cap hit in 2005, so to eat $7.1M in dead cap to cut him doesn't make much sense. 2006 is our trouble year so pushing the bulk of the dead money there doesn't help either. I agree with Ramseyfan that the only logical solution would be to keep Brunell on as a backup in 2005, then cut him after June 1st 2006. We'd eat $1.4M in dead cap in 2006 and $4.3M in 2007.

Ramsey - We have Ramsey signed through 2006. But I think Gibbs will know sooner than that if Ramsey has a future with the Skins. Hopefully PR steps up and shows Gibbs he's the QB of the future. If he plays well enough they sign him to an extension in the offseason or midway through next year and everyone's happy. :food-smil

If not, the Skins will have to make some decisions. I can't see Gibbs going back to the draft for a QB and starting all over. I figure they give Ramsey until midway next year to show what he's got, and if he's not the man they trade him and bring in another vet QB for 2006. :doh:

If Gibbs really sees nothing in Ramsey the rest of this year it is conceivable they could go after a QB in the offseason. Believe it or not, they could probably afford it since the cap hits are usually smallest in the first couple years of the contract.[/QUOTE]
Nice info CC, thanks

What happens if Brunell retires? Do we still take a cap hit?

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]What happens if Brunell retires? Do we still take a cap hit?[/QUOTE]

Good question. I heard that there might be a "Barry Sanders" rule where you could get cap relief if a player retires, but I'm not sure.

And by the way SC is right, Peyton's deal is nowhere near Brunell's.

The Redskins will definitely go after an experienced QB. Could be Kitna, Brees or someone else. Hasselbeck deserves a chance as well as Ramsey for 1# spot because up until now there has been no efficient passer for this team since Brad Johnson. If you compare the successful QB's in the past, we are not even close with the QB's we have now.

If Brunell Retires
 

I saw this on Ask the Commish:

What happens if a player is traded or retires?

Answer: In most cases, if a player retires, the remaining signing bonus that has not been included in salary “accelerates” and is included in that year’s team salary. Thus, the team will take an immediate salary cap hit of the remaining signing bonus.

Here's the Brunell situation as reported by the Post, does this sound about right CC? From this it sounds like cutting him after June 1 might not be all that bad, especially when the cap goes up from the TV money.

[quote]Brunell is due to receive a $500,000 roster bonus on April 1, league sources said, and the Redskins would face a steep $7.165 million salary cap hit in 2005 if he retires or the team releases him before then; if Brunell is cut or retires after June 1, Washington would be penalized $1.93 million against the 2005 cap and another $5.7 million against the 2006 cap. Before this season began, many NFL executives believed the Redskins already were headed to a salary cap crisis by 2006. [/quote]

Either way, the cap hit is going to be painful. We wouldn't be able to afford a free-agent QB even if we wanted one.

[QUOTE]Brunell is due to receive a $500,000 roster bonus on April 1, league sources said, and the Redskins would face a steep $7.165 million salary cap hit in 2005 if he retires or the team releases him before then; if Brunell is cut or retires after June 1, Washington would be penalized $1.93 million against the 2005 cap and another $5.7 million against the 2006 cap. Before this season began, many NFL executives believed the Redskins already were headed to a salary cap crisis by 2006.[/QUOTE]

This is exactly right Matty.

Like I wrote above I still think it makes more sense to cut Brunell after June 1 2006. It all comes down to when the Skins want to eat the bulk of the money, and 2006 would seem to be the worst time to do it, cuz our cap number takes a big spike that year. It would make more sense to eat the bulk of the money in 2007. Of course a lot will depend on the new salary cap figures.