What's up with the cops these days?
 

Are the police getting too big for their breeches these days?

[url=http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/28330.htm]Courthouse News Service[/url]

[url=http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Secret+lets+police+arrest+failing+show+near+summit/3201082/story.html]'Secret' law lets police arrest for failing to show ID near summit[/url]

This is already on top of the little girl getting shot.

Also, it sounds more and more like standard police procedure these days to shoot a man's dog upon entering his house.

What Sayeth the Mob?

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

Ok, lets over look the fact that it was a G8 and G20 meeting. Lets over look the fact that security gets beefed up when dignitaries from countries all show up at one place. Lets over look the fact that the whole ID law and "searches" were being conducted with in 5 meters of the security zone.

I often wonder what society would say if someone walked up and shot a dignitary due to lack of security. Oh wait that happened to Reagan.

Just wait till they require ID and conduct searches at our borders.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

I have nothing in regards to the 86 y/o granny. but everyone thinks of a granny and thinks old and skinny and feable. Just like when we hear cop tazers juvenile, we all get a picture of some small kid getting tazered by some big cop.

Little do people realize some kids adult size. Stafford tazered a 14 yr old who was 6ft. 3inch and 280lbs.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

On a side note, sometimes the dog wins and the cop loses.

[url]http://officer.com/online/article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=53089[/url]

I hear sometimes pepper spray works on dogs and sometimes it just makes them more mad. Some departments I hear don't have tazers, which leaves using the hand gun against a dog that tries to attack.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

It's crazy how the civil libertarians love increases in police power. Tyranny always comes from your local police officer not some philosophical hypothetical struggle between feds and state.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

these days? shit, they've outgrown them long ago

it's no longer about providing a safe community, it's about sting operations, revenue, and the like

there are much better ways to help "clean up" societies than to just arrest everybody for everything.. one little misdemeanor can haunt you for a long time, it's a damn shame that the courts and police are out to ruin lives

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=SBXVII;709143]Ok, lets over look the fact that it was a G8 and G20 meeting. Lets over look the fact that security gets beefed up when dignitaries from countries all show up at one place. Lets over look the fact that the whole ID law and "searches" were being conducted with in 5 meters of the security zone.

I often wonder what society would say if someone walked up and shot a dignitary due to lack of security. Oh wait that happened to Reagan.

Just wait till they require ID and conduct searches at our borders.[/quote]

Let's look over the fact that civilians were not alerted to the new law.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=SBXVII;709144]I have nothing in regards to the 86 y/o granny. but everyone thinks of a granny and thinks old and skinny and feable. Just like when we hear cop tazers juvenile, we all get a picture of some small kid getting tazered by some big cop.

Little do people realize some kids adult size. Stafford tazered a 14 yr old who was 6ft. 3inch and 280lbs.[/quote]

Yeah I remember this one time this woman adjusted her walker and one of the tennis balls got a few inches closer to me so I clotheslined her. Maybe read the article.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;709192]Yeah I remember this one time this woman adjusted her walker and one of the tennis balls got a few inches closer to me so I clotheslined her. Maybe read the article.[/quote]

LOL. Seriously. If the facts in the article are even close to the truth, those cops should be fired and prosecuted for assault. She "took a more aggressive posture in bed" ???? LOL. She's 86, on bed rest, and on oxygen. Unfuckingbelievable.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=GMScud;709210]LOL. Seriously. If the facts in the article are even close to the truth, those cops should be fired and prosecuted for assault. She "took a more aggressive posture in bed" ???? LOL. She's 86, on bed rest, and on oxygen. Unfuckingbelievable.[/quote]

Seriously.. a bowel movement could create a more "aggressive" posture.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=joethiesmanfan;709162]It's crazy how the civil libertarians love increases in police power. Tyranny always comes from your local police officer not some philosophical hypothetical struggle between feds and state.[/quote]

What civil libertarian loves increases in police power?

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;709192]Yeah I remember this one time this woman adjusted her walker and one of the tennis balls got a few inches closer to me so I clotheslined her. [B]Maybe read the article[/B].[/quote]

Maybe read the police report.

[url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/33557136/Dallas-Org-El-Reno-Police-Report-on-Lona-Varner]Dallas.Org: El Reno Police - Report on Lona Varner[/url]

Compare it to the civil complaint.

[url]http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/TaserGranny[/url]

The heart of it is that, according to the police, the granny was apparently an elderly woman who had gone "off her meds", was delusional, was weilding a "ktichen knife", and threatening to kill anyone who came near her including, apparently, her grandson.

Not saying they acted correctly or incorrectly - but it sounds like, if the police report is wrong, there will be plenty of evidence to contradict them (they apparently have the knife as evidence - let's see what we're talking about here). Also, I don't know, but I can see a situation where a crazy lady weilding large (if it was) kitchen knife might present a problem for paramedics so the cops had to disable her somehow. Was a taser appropriate? I don't know; I wasn't there. Neither was anyone else here.

Perhaps, just perhaps, its a little hyperbole by those seeking to argue that govt. is out of control or those with an agenda against police. They are easy targets for the both the right and the left.

Again, I am not saying the cops acted correctly, just that it may not be so cut and dry as some would like to make it.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;709191]Let's look over the fact that civilians were not alerted to the new law.[/quote]

From the Article:
"[Community Safety Minister, Rick] Bartolucci, who is also the minister of correctional services, said the changes were voted in by a special five-member meeting of cabinet on June 14. The regulations were then posted on a relatively obscure government website, [url]www.e-laws.gov.on.ca[/url].

He said the changes were demanded by Toronto police.

'There was no secretive process here,' he said. 'The reality is this is the process that is followed with every regulation. Those who view e-laws — and I’m sure that they’re viewed by lawyers — were well aware this regulation was passed.'"

The above statement reminds me of a passage from the [I]Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxay[/I]:

Upon being informed that the earth was about to be destroyed to make way for an interstellar by-pass and protesting the pending imminent destruction, earth's 20th Century populace was informed -

"There's no point in acting all surprised about it. All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display in your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for fifty of your earth years, so you've had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it's far too late to start making a fuss about it.
...

What do you mean you've never been to Alpha Cenatauri? For heaven's sake, mankind, it's only four light years away, you know. I'm sorry, but if you can't be bothered to take an interest in local affairs that's your own lookout.

Energizie the demolition beams."

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;709241]Maybe read the police report.

[url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/33557136/Dallas-Org-El-Reno-Police-Report-on-Lona-Varner]Dallas.Org: El Reno Police - Report on Lona Varner[/url]

Compare it to the civil complaint.

[url]http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/TaserGranny[/url]

The heart of it is that, according to the police, the granny was apparently an elderly woman who had gone "off her meds", was delusional, was weilding a "ktichen knife", and threatening to kill anyone who came near her including, apparently, her grandson.

Not saying they acted correctly or incorrectly - but it sounds like, if the police report is wrong, there will be plenty of evidence to contradict them (they apparently have the knife as evidence - let's see what we're talking about here). Also, I don't know, but I can see a situation where a crazy lady weilding large (if it was) kitchen knife might present a problem for paramedics so the cops had to disable her somehow. Was a taser appropriate? I don't know; I wasn't there. Neither was anyone else here.

Perhaps, just perhaps, its a little hyperbole by those seeking to argue that govt. is out of control or those with an agenda against police. They are easy targets for the both the right and the left.

Again, I am not saying the cops acted correctly, just that it may not be so cut and dry as some would like to make it.[/quote]

This is a very intelligent post. +5.

Even if the lady was 86, she was crazy, off medication, and weilding a deadly weapon that she could have used against herself, paramedics, officers, and her grandson.

People say the taser is too violent?? What else could they do to an 86 year old lady with a knife...pepper spray her? punch her in the face? shoot her with a bean bag gun?

One of the things I hate about society, is that we have a concept that above or below a certain age, it's okay to blantantly break the law.

I get tired of hearing the elderly defended. As some of you know on here that know me, my good friend was killed last spring when he was T-boned by an 88 year old man who turned into his driveway and didn't look.

The man faced no charges, because of his age. Take me for example. I'm 25 and if I would have killed somebody with my car, i would be going to jail. But not the elderly, because they get the excuse that "They don't know what they are doing"

If I was the cop i would have tazed her too. And if she tried to stab me or swipe at me with that knife, i would have blown her away.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;709241]Maybe read the police report.

[url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/33557136/Dallas-Org-El-Reno-Police-Report-on-Lona-Varner]Dallas.Org: El Reno Police - Report on Lona Varner[/url]

Compare it to the civil complaint.

[url]http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/TaserGranny[/url]

The heart of it is that, according to the police, the granny was apparently an elderly woman who had gone "off her meds", was delusional, was weilding a "ktichen knife", and threatening to kill anyone who came near her including, apparently, her grandson.

Not saying they acted correctly or incorrectly - but it sounds like, if the police report is wrong, there will be plenty of evidence to contradict them (they apparently have the knife as evidence - let's see what we're talking about here). Also, I don't know, but I can see a situation where a crazy lady weilding large (if it was) kitchen knife might present a problem for paramedics so the cops had to disable her somehow. Was a taser appropriate? I don't know; I wasn't there. Neither was anyone else here.

Perhaps, just perhaps, its a little hyperbole by those seeking to argue that govt. is out of control or those with an agenda against police. They are easy targets for the both the right and the left.

Again, I am not saying the cops acted correctly, just that it may not be so cut and dry as some would like to make it.[/quote]
It wasn't linked or else I would've taken that into account. Pretty big evidence to have been left out of the original article.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=tryfuhl;709258]It wasn't linked or else I would've taken that into account. Pretty big evidence to have been left out of the original article.[/quote]

It took me 5 minutes to find the link. Rather than question something that seemed outrageous on its face, you just bought the agenda you wanted to believe [I]and[/I] then accuse someone else of not having their facts straight.

[quote=tryfuhl;709192]Yeah I remember this one time this woman adjusted her walker and one of the tennis balls got a few inches closer to me so I clotheslined her. [B] Maybe read the article[/B].[/quote]

Way to avoid critical thinking. Welcome to the sheep nation.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=Trample the Elderly;709129]Are the police getting too big for their breeches these days?

[url=http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/06/24/28330.htm]Courthouse News Service[/url]

[url=http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Secret+lets+police+arrest+failing+show+near+summit/3201082/story.html]'Secret' law lets police arrest for failing to show ID near summit[/url]

This is already on top of the little girl getting shot.

Also, it sounds more and more like standard police procedure these days to shoot a man's dog upon entering his house.

What Sayeth the Mob?[/quote]


If a cop did that to my Grandmother and in her house on her bed..................I'd beat the shit out of him or at least try too! Thats damn for sure! What a bunch of pussies too! Tasering a 86 year old! Freakin horrible! I hope those cops go to prison and then get put in General Population. They won't be able to hide behind their badges then!

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=Miller101;709334]If a cop did that to my Grandmother and in her house on her bed..................I'd beat the shit out of him or at least try too! Thats damn for sure! What a bunch of pussies too! Tasering a 86 year old! Freakin horrible! I hope those cops go to prison and then get put in General Population. They won't be able to hide behind their badges then![/quote]

I understand your anger, i do. But really what could they have done, when she had a knife and was threating to stab her grandson. Would you have just waited for her to stab somebody, and THEN try and calm her down??

the fact was, she was putting people in a life threatening situation, even if it didnt seem like it. If the police did nothing, the same people would be crying that they didnt do anything, after somebody got stabbed....

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/33557136/Dallas-Org-El-Reno-Police-Report-on-Lona-Varner]Dallas.Org: El Reno Police - Report on Lona Varner[/url]

Here is the police officer's statement on what happened. It still seems like the police could have backed off, and waited for an ambulance to show. If at that time she threatened the EMT then the police could re-assert control over the situation, including use of a taser. I am glad to be out of that field, and away from dealing with domestic incidents. Absolutely the worst and most unstable situations a police officer can get into.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;709347][url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/33557136/Dallas-Org-El-Reno-Police-Report-on-Lona-Varner]Dallas.Org: El Reno Police - Report on Lona Varner[/url]

Here is the police officer's statement on what happened. [B]It still seems like the police could have backed off, and waited for an ambulance to show.[/B] If at that time she threatened the EMT then the police could re-assert control over the situation, including use of a taser. I am glad to be out of that field, and away from dealing with domestic incidents. Absolutely the worst and most unstable situations a police officer can get into.[/quote]

Probably true, although from the report, I don't think that would have changed anything and may have increased the problem as you now have more people crowding into the living room area.

For me, the question is what was the "kitchen knife" - was it some 10" long chef's knife or a little paring knife. At the same time, if the report on this woman's actions is correct, she was really acting crazy. Even it was just a small knife, I just don't know how you could immobilize this woman without likely injuring her in some fashion.

Agreed, domestic issues are always the most unstable - and that applies at the legal end of it too (Once, I saw a milliion dollar divorce settlement fall apart over who gets the poodle).

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;709356]...

Agreed, domestic issues are always the most unstable - and that applies at the legal end of it too (Once, I saw a [B]milliion [/B]dollar divorce settlement fall apart over who gets the poodle).[/quote]

probably a good thing, who would know how to split a milliion dollars anyway, sounds fisshy to me

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;709347][url=http://www.scribd.com/doc/33557136/Dallas-Org-El-Reno-Police-Report-on-Lona-Varner]Dallas.Org: El Reno Police - Report on Lona Varner[/url]

Here is the police officer's statement on what happened. It still seems like the police could have backed off, and waited for an ambulance to show. If at that time she threatened the EMT then the police could re-assert control over the situation, including use of a taser. I am glad to be out of that field, and away from dealing with domestic incidents. Absolutely the worst and most unstable situations a police officer can get into.[/quote]

I think you're right. One of the biggest problem in dealing with the elderly is that there is so many people that feel that because of their age they should get away with anything. And they love to use the excuse that "they don't know what they are doing", like they are a toddler or some brain-dead invalid.

don't think about the woman's age, and you have a clear crime, with an assailant, and a likely victim (the grandson, or other officers)

[B]The woman was threatening police with a kitchen knife, and also threatened to stab her grandson[/B]

that reads a heck of a lot different than:

[B]the elderly, senile woman, was threatening police with a kitchen knife, and also threatened to stab her grandson.[/B]

I'm tired of these old bastards getting to do whatever they want just because of their age. You can't tell me that they dont know it either and attempt to exploit people. The guy that killed my friend like a rabbit in the road would be in jail for murder today if it wasn't for the fact that he was 88 and on oxygen, and they said he was "too old" to stand trial.

As others have pointed out, tasering was the safest way to disable her. You cant risk breaking her frail ass bones if the officer tried to grab or wrest the knife away from her, and a punch in the face to disarm her would likely kill her. The tazer is usually the safest bet.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=SolidSnake84;709343]I understand your anger, i do. But really what could they have done, when she had a knife and was threating to stab her grandson. Would you have just waited for her to stab somebody, and THEN try and calm her down??

the fact was, she was putting people in a life threatening situation, even if it didnt seem like it. If the police did nothing, the same people would be crying that they didnt do anything, after somebody got stabbed....[/quote]

Nevermind Solidsnake. I only read the first couple posts to this and then responded. I didn't see the Police Take on what happened. I only read what the Grand ma and Grandson said. Yeah, if she had a knife and threatened people including the cops then she deserved to get tased!

I guess I should have read all of the posts before I responded..................and I was going to, but I got interrupted! Somone at my job called me! They needed me to do something RIGHT THEN! So, I just responded with reading only the first couple of posts. Next time, I'll make that [I]butthead[/I] wait a little longer! :)

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

You really can't say the cops these days, they are just upholding the laws we put in place.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=Miller101;709376]Nevermind Solidsnake. I only read the first couple posts to this and then responded. I didn't see the Police Take on what happened. I only read what the Grand ma and Grandson said. Yeah, if she had a knife and threatened people including the cops then she deserved to get tased!

I guess I should have read all of the posts before I responded..................and I was going to, but I got interrupted! Somone at my job called me! They needed me to do something RIGHT THEN! So, I just responded with reading only the first couple of posts. Next time, I'll make that [I]butthead[/I] wait a little longer! :)[/quote]

Wait, you aren't the guy at the phone company that I just yelled at are you??? ;)

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

In a free society the cops should never have the right to search you without cause, and then arrest you for refusing. This is grounds for a revolution.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;709263]It took me 5 minutes to find the link. Rather than question something that seemed outrageous on its face, you just bought the agenda you wanted to believe [I]and[/I] then accuse someone else of not having their facts straight.



Way to avoid critical thinking. [B]Welcome to the sheep nation[/B].[/quote]

Ahh you know me all so well.

Look, had this been something that I was deeply concerned with (the particular situation) yeah I would've taken the time to look more into the situation. I took the irresponsible reporting at face value and rescinded my previous statement for the most part. This is somewhere that I come for fun and to shoot the shit, not debate club. I don't know if you have your differences with me because of some of the other political/society threads or what but I don't take it that seriously.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

^^ I guess the thing that bothered me was the criticism of someone else for failing to get their facts straight when you had not taken the time to do so yourself.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;709465]^^ I guess the thing that bothered me was the criticism of someone else for failing to get their facts straight when you had not taken the time to do so yourself.[/quote]

Definitely not the first time I've foot-in-mouth'd ;)

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;709403]In a free society the cops should never have the right to search you without cause, and then arrest you for refusing. This is grounds for a revolution.[/quote]

like Professor Gates?

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;709403]In a free society the cops should never have the right to search you without cause, and then arrest you for refusing. This is grounds for a revolution.[/quote]

The problem with revolution is that the resulting government is almost always worse. That was not true for the American Revolution, but that may be because the power that was overthrown was very much like an occupier, and we had an existing governmental structure already in place. Usually, like in the French revolution, if the existing government is overthrown, the initial leaders of the revolution are consumed by the groundswell of anger that is released, and more tyrannical and dictatorial elements within the revolution usurp the movement.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;709758]The problem with revolution is that the resulting government is almost always worse. That was not true for the American Revolution, but that may be because the power that was overthrown was very much like an occupier, and we had an existing governmental structure already in place. Usually, like in the French revolution, if the existing government is overthrown, the initial leaders of the revolution are consumed by the groundswell of anger that is released, and more tyrannical and dictatorial elements within the revolution usurp the movement.[/quote]

So you are against over throwing tyranny?

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;709758]The problem with revolution is that the resulting government is almost always worse. That was not true for the American Revolution, but that may be because the power that was overthrown was very much like an occupier, and we had an existing governmental structure already in place. Usually, like in the French revolution, if the existing government is overthrown, the initial leaders of the revolution are consumed by the groundswell of anger that is released, and more tyrannical and dictatorial elements within the revolution usurp the movement.[/quote]

I know you qualified with "almost always," so this isn't really a dig at you, but South Africa says hello.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

I don't think we fall under tyranny yet, and overthrowing one tyrannical leader has most often led to a harsher tyranny in place. Again the US was in kind of a perfect storm for having our revolution. A strong but distant occupier, who had an ongoing "real" war with their main enemy (France), and an existing local government structure that the populace generally supported, and gave time to establish itself.

So I think the "tyranny" needs to be far more than a warrantless ID check for a full blown revolution. That said, I am by no means supporting the nature of the checks, just saying that you need to understand the consequences before you cry revolt.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=jdlea;709779]I know you qualified with "almost always," so this isn't really a dig at you, but South Africa says hello.[/quote]
That's a good example against what I said:food-smil.

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

Speaking of Tyranny: [url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_harvard_scholar_review]Report: Harvard scholar's arrest avoidable - Yahoo! News[/url]

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

Glad I could stir the pot Ha Ha Ha!

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[url=http://www.cracked.com/article_18620_6-completely-legal-ways-cops-can-screw-you.html]6 Completely Legal Ways The Cops Can Screw You | Cracked.com[/url]

Steel you Identity
Arrest women for carry more then 2 condoms in parts of DC
Arrest you for filming them
Arrest you for being around alcohol in a bar (Texas)
Guess how fast youre going and give you a ticket
Steal your stuff

So these are NOT old fashion funny laws that are just on the books, most of these are new laws passed recently in varying degrees in different states. Read for details and stories of people who got screwed.

Im not sure what outrages me the most. I think steal your stuff, no filming, and arrest women for condoms are the most outrages, but theyre all pretty bad.

Contact your legislator.......

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[url=http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/06/police-man-arrested-conn-company-saying-understood-mindset-shooter-killed/]FOXNews.com - Police Arrest Man for Saying He Understood Conn. Warehouse Gunman[/url]

Re: What's up with the cops these days?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;709758]The problem with revolution is that the resulting government is almost always worse. That was not true for the American Revolution, but that may be because the power that was overthrown was very much like an occupier, and we had an existing governmental structure already in place. Usually, like in the French revolution, if the existing government is overthrown, the initial leaders of the revolution are consumed by the groundswell of anger that is released, and more tyrannical and dictatorial elements within the revolution usurp the movement.[/quote]

I agree. I used to be a big advocate of revolt, until I realized I had no good alternative. However, there comes a time where no good alternative is better than status quo -- it's pretty much the basis for Communist revolution. In any case, it's the *threat* of revolt which is most valuable -- not the action itself.