Can you change?
 

This is not so much a political dialogue as a philosophical question. My question is this: What would make you change your political ideas. For the most part we all know the basic political fundamentals that everyone else here holds. Saden loves Lord Obama, TTE has his shelter ready, JTF holds all that is republican as pure evil, etc. I grew up solidly Republican, no real doubts in my mind. And all the discussions here basically involving dialogue of some sort that covers the spectrum of views.

BUT what would it take for you to have a ground shift and turn away from your current bent. As an example, for me, after the Republicans won control of both houses and the presidency, I expected to see fiscal restraint, but instead just saw the pork go elsewhere. I haven't really believed the Republican party since then, but I also haven't become a Democrat or really shifted my basic ideology from when I was a teen. I would say I am more understanding of the liberal view, but I could never see life from a "liberal" perspective.

So what could make someone, change their perspective completely? Could it even happen? Could Saden reject Obama and embrace Republican values? What would it take for TTE to become a strong supporter of Big Government? JTF, without sarcasm, what would have to happen for you to believe in Big Business.

Basically, can we change or at what point does deep fundamental change become nearly impossible?

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;710535]This is not so much a political dialogue as a philosophical question. My question is this: What would make you change your political ideas. For the most part we all know the basic political fundamentals that everyone else here holds. Saden loves Lord Obama, TTE has his shelter ready, JTF holds all that is republican as pure evil, etc. I grew up solidly Republican, no real doubts in my mind. And all the discussions here basically involving dialogue of some sort that covers the spectrum of views.

BUT what would it take for you to have a ground shift and turn away from your current bent. As an example, for me, after the Republicans won control of both houses and the presidency, I expected to see fiscal restraint, but instead just saw the pork go elsewhere. I haven't really believed the Republican party since then, but I also haven't become a Democrat or really shifted my basic ideology from when I was a teen. I would say I am more understanding of the liberal view, but I could never see life from a "liberal" perspective.

So what could make someone, change their perspective completely? Could it even happen? Could Saden reject Obama and embrace Republican values? What would it take for TTE to become a strong supporter of Big Government? JTF, without sarcasm, what would have to happen for you to believe in Big Business.

Basically, can we change or at what point does deep fundamental change become nearly impossible?[/quote]

Well if the Republicans can make South Carolina a better place then
I would believe what they say. South Carolina is pure Republican through and through and have had the worst edcuation, economic , and health conditons of all 50 states for a long while now. When does the low taxes start to create jobs? We are 35 years and counting, waiting on these jobs. The philosophy sounds good but does not work. Bye bye Republicans, hello Tea Party. They would be easy to confuse and deride. LOL!!! Come on Rand, try to implement your radical philosophy so I can laugh.

Re: Can you change?
 

I have Republican values, I just don't like Republicans. I grew up in a household that voted for Tom Davis (R-VA-11) year-in-year out but I just don't see Republicans like him. To me the GOP has lost practicality altogether and sound policy ideas. They have these grand ideas about cutting spending and reducing the deficits all the while cutting taxes. I can never in good conscious support people with those policies. The only way I will ever vote Republican is if there is the kind of flip there was in the 60's or a shift to more practical policies on their part (i.e. support for direct lending to students by the gov instead of middlemen banks). Oh and of course if Lord Obama changes his party affiliation to GOP, I'm going GOP like BOB.


People who think simply having less government is a good public policy don't deserve to run the government.

Re: Can you change?
 

I know I've changed my political viewpoints from when I was a teenager in high school. Back then I was against flag burning, against drug legalization, buy American-made products only, and pretty much pro-war whenever war broke out.

Today, I'm completely the opposite on all those issues. For me, I changed those viewpoints after spending more time studying the issue -- thinking about it deeper than I had before. Generally, my instinctive, knee-jerk type reactions are those that I later change my mind about.

I think it was Bertrand Russell who said, "the whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubt."

Re: Can you change?
 

I have seen folks switch and normally it is from Dem to Rep. I think the Dem party lends more to the younger generations where the GOP favors older generations.

Just my two cents.

Re: Can you change?
 

I do not have too much time at the moment . 1st , happy 4th to all of you . I have never donated money to either party , I just want both to do what is right and what benefits ..... 1) those who are productive , 2) those who NEED help , 3) for both parties to stop finger pointing and blaming each other all of the time . Happy 4th ladies and Gent's .

Re: Can you change?
 

A change in the tax bracket in which you're categorized. Get a big raise? You're more likely to see the republican point of view. Get laid off? You're more likely to see the democrats point of view. They say you never understand until you walk a mile in a man's shoes. If your financial situation in life changes, chances are you'll feel differently about a lot of things.

But for me, I consider myself an independent thinker. I will examine each situation independently, consider all viewpoints, and come up with my own conclusions. In this way, I don't consider myself either a democrat or republican; I'm a fan of whichever side has the right answer on a particular issue. This leads me to like republicans on some things, but democrats on others.

However the fundamental premises upon which I base my thinking mostly line up with the republican side (because I actually understand economics). Things like lower taxes, smaller government, pro business, etc. I don't see those things ever changing. However, if the Democrats do things that are pro business, I gladly support it.

I liked the bank bailouts. I liked the Wall Street bailouts.

So some things won't ever change, especially the fact that I'll always think independently and will never join a team, aligning myself with one party on all issues. I'll surely vote democrat when the candidate and the issues call for it, and I'll vote republican plenty of times as well.

Re: Can you change?
 

I've been registered independent since day 1. I've never identified myself with either party though I've gotta say I've never once voted Republican, but I would if the right candidate came along. At this point I don't see a huge difference between either of the parties. It's just one big cluster F.

Re: Can you change?
 

I just want to put out there that Independent learners are just as partisan as Republicans and Democrats. They tend to always vote for Republicans or Democrats just like those that identify with a party. If you're not a pure independent or a vote-splitter you're not really an independent.

I get it if you just want to be able to vote in primaries in both parties though. Keep it real, enjoy your Independence Day meals.

Re: Can you change?
 

I voted for Clinton in '96 shortly after my 18th birthday, but I've generally voted Republican ever since (with some exceptions in smaller local elections). I've never been a party lines kind of guy. Like Schneed, I prefer to evaluate each issue separately, but tend to side with Republicans. But I also agree with Matty. It's such a cluster eff right now. I actually changed my registration to Independent this past week. I'm kinda fed up.

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=mredskins;710568]I have seen folks switch and normally it is from Dem to Rep. [B]I think the Dem party lends more to the younger generations where the GOP favors older generations.[/B]

Just my two cents.[/quote]

That made me think of this quote attributed (some think incorrectly) to Winston Churchill -
"If you're not liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain."

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=Mattyk;710579]I've been registered independent since day 1. I've never identified myself with either party though I've gotta say I've never once voted Republican, but I would if the right candidate came along. At this point I don't see a huge difference between either of the parties. It's just one big cluster F.[/quote]I've voted Republican at the state level but never for the federal executive branch.

Most of my ideas run a bit right personally but I try to think of others when making bigger decisions such as who should run the country, not who would benefit just me. Our country needs plenty of help and it seems like the Dems are more willing to offer it whereas the Republicans don't seem to care as much. I know that there's partisan bickering on everything but it also seems like the Republicans won't give ANYTHING a chance and will bitch about it without having their own idea of how something should be done. I don't get as much of the play-by-play from Congress now that I don't watch C-Span much anymore though.

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=cpayne5;710606]That made me think of this quote attributed (some think incorrectly) to Winston Churchill -
"If you're not liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you're not conservative when you're older, you have no brain."[/quote]

ha.. I was going to post this in response to something the other day but was on my phone and was like eff it

I think that it's somewhat true.. or at least seems to happen quite a bit

I think that after awhile a lot of people lose sight of actual politics and certainly progressive politics.. as the world gets crazier they remember their own conservative times when things were simpler and in turn want that in their government as well

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=Schneed10;710576]A change in the tax bracket in which you're categorized. Get a big raise? You're more likely to see the republican point of view. Get laid off? You're more likely to see the democrats point of view. They say you never understand until you walk a mile in a man's shoes. If your financial situation in life changes, chances are you'll feel differently about a lot of things.

But for me, I consider myself an independent thinker. I will examine each situation independently, consider all viewpoints, and come up with my own conclusions. In this way, I don't consider myself either a democrat or republican; I'm a fan of whichever side has the right answer on a particular issue. This leads me to like republicans on some things, but democrats on others.

However the fundamental premises upon which I base my thinking mostly line up with the republican side (because I actually understand economics). Things like lower taxes, smaller government, pro business, etc. I don't see those things ever changing. However, if the Democrats do things that are pro business, I gladly support it.

I liked the bank bailouts. I liked the Wall Street bailouts.

So some things won't ever change, especially the fact that I'll always think independently and will never join a team, aligning myself with one party on all issues. I'll surely vote democrat when the candidate and the issues call for it, and I'll vote republican plenty of times as well.[/quote]

[quote=Mattyk]I've been registered independent since day 1. I've never identified myself with either party though I've gotta say I've never once voted Republican, but I would if the right candidate came along. At this point I don't see a huge difference between either of the parties. It's just one big cluster F.[/quote]

These. Exactly how I feel.

Re: Can you change?
 

The simple answer to the question for me is, yes I can change. However, my feet are planted squarely within the Democratic party. I grew up in D.C., and I love this city with all of my heart, so I come from a "blue state", so to speak. So my views and political leanings were obviously influenced by my environment.

As far as values go, I'm conservative on some issues and I'm liberal on some others. I believe in an individual's right to bear arms, but I also believe in individual privacy and that a woman should have the right to choose what's best for her body and mental well being, not the government. I believe in basic human rights, whether you're a prisoner at Gitmo, someone in China working at sweat shop, or some kid getting beat down by a cop in S.E. D.C. It's just fundamental to who we are and why we are the greatest nation on earth. The minute we start inching to the right or left, little by little, on these basic truths we begin to compromise that greatness.

Could I vote for a Republican, hell yeah! But I've yet to be inspired by the party, the leaders and the brand of leadership they've put forth over the past decade. Say what you will about Bill Clinton, but we enjoyed prosperity during his presidency and he did pass the torch with a surplus. Say what you will about TARP, but the program has been a success and we've [I]only [/I]used $495 billion of the $700 billion. Truth is we need to cut some taxes in some areas and raise some taxes in some areas. We need to cut government in some places and expand government in some places (see BP oil spill and Wall Street reform.) So the Republican cookie cutter solution - this [B][I]or[/I][/B] that- not this [B][I]and [/I][/B]that doesn't work for me as a concerned and engaged citizen, and it certainly doesn't address the long-term systemic and complex problems that we face as a nation. If cutting taxes and government were the solutions to everything I'm sure George Bush, as inept as he was, would have figured that out and passed Obama a surplus. I just have to believe that. But governing and leading isn't that simple in this era. Besides, taxes were cut -- twice-- under Bush and the economy still spiraled into a deep recession.

But yeah, I can change!

Re: Can you change?
 

Good post 12th.

I'm like you, except on the other side of things (I'll always remember that thread with the chart that plotted where each person was on the political spectrum), that was a good thread.

I grew up just outside DC in the People's Republic of Montgomery County (Kensington), although it was probably at least 10 years earlier than when you grew up. My folks were registered Ds, but voted R from Reagan on. I'd say they were Kennedy Ds. I remember reading the Washington Post, but mostly checking the baseball box scores, reading Skins stuff, and checking the Weekend section for the movie times, not realizing the Washington Post was left of Pravda. :) I was worried about Reagan "putting us into a nuclear war" before he got elected in 1980, but was in his corner as I got into HS. When I went into the USAF I was sent to Japan and exposed to the real world, my views were solidly formed and have stayed consistent since, but more fiscally conservative as I get older.

Could I vote for a Democrat, certainly. But you can't find a fiscal conservative, limited gov't Dem to save your soul. And I agree, I haven't been inspired by the Rs in quite sometime. To me they're just the lesser of two evils. Problem is both parties are controlled at the top by special interests and solid, middle of the road, common sense candidates can't get out of primaries because the big party money stomps them almost every time. We just had a primary here in VB and the big party guy won even though he wasn't the best choice. He'll be another don't tax but keep spending RINO. He'll say the scripted things, but will be a tool for the RNC, just like Thelma Drake was.

I would trade in Obama for either Clinton, especially Bill, in a heartbeat. I was no fan of his, but he did know how to track to the center when necessary. That being said, while Clinton technically passed a surplus to Bush 2, he also passed on a recession. His housing policies were also a contributor to the current recession (but to his credit, he saw the pending problems and sounded the warning bells on this, the current crop of Ds didn't heed the warnings).

While Bush was certainly no fiscal conservative, the Bush tax cuts did limit the impact of the 2001 recession and minimized the impact of Sept. 11th on the economy. Most of Bush's spending increases were related to Sept. 11th (DHS, etc.) and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, with bi-partisan Congressional support.

I don't think changing is really the issue, the folks here that meaningfully contribute to the political discussions have different views but normally are in agreement or could come to a satisfactory agreement on 80% of the issues. The vast majority of the country is influenced heavily by soundbites and talking heads without doing any research or investigation into the issues. You could find out what the 3rd WR on the Texans did in the Week 5 fantasy league or what American Idol/Bachelor/DWTS gossip is going on before most folks could name the VP or their own congressman/ senators.

Re: Can you change?
 

I am a Dem for the most part but I be stupid not to vote for this guy.

[url=http://www.bobehrlich.com/]Bob Ehrlich Splash[/url]

The Dem party in MD is just plain awful.

Re: Can you change?
 

What needs to happen, broken down by member:

Saden = US declares bankruptcy
TTE = needy elderly
JTF = big business owner

Obviously this is a joke, but it leads to the real answer: everyone has a different perspective and none of them are wrong.

The big business owner feels like they worked hard enough to get where they are, and they deserve what they earn and shouldn't have to share it with anyone.

The needy elderly cannot survive on their own, and they feel like their lifetime of hard work entitles them to support from the government.

The poverty-stricken child who found their way out of the ghetto and received a college degree doesn't want others to face the same obstacles, and petitions the government for minority support for higher education.

None of these people/perspectives is wrong. I once read a quote that said the [I]real[/I] truth is the sum of all perspectives. I think it applies well to politics.

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=Beemnseven;710567]I think it was Bertrand Russell who said, "the whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so sure of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubt."[/quote]

I love that quote.

Re: Can you change?
 

I have changed. When I was fourteen I thought we should have national health care. Then I got a job and found out that none of this stuff was free. Just because you get a middle man to steal for you (the government), doesn't mean you're not a effing thief. I don't care if you're a poor old person or some starving child, eat cat food and die. There's no magic money tree at the Federal Reserve.

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=GhettoDogAllStars;710750]What needs to happen, broken down by member:

Saden = US declares bankruptcy
TTE = needy elderly
JTF = big business owner

Obviously this is a joke, but it leads to the real answer: everyone has a different perspective and none of them are wrong.

The big business owner feels like they worked hard enough to get where they are, and they deserve what they earn and shouldn't have to share it with anyone.

The needy elderly cannot survive on their own, and they feel like their lifetime of hard work entitles them to support from the government.

The poverty-stricken child who found their way out of the ghetto and received a college degree doesn't want others to face the same obstacles, and petitions the government for minority support for higher education.

None of these people/perspectives is wrong. I once read a quote that said the [I]real[/I] truth is the sum of all perspectives. I think it applies well to politics.[/quote]


I like that.

Re: Can you change?
 

The middle of the road is where all the road kill is at.

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;710666]Good post 12th.

I'm like you, except on the other side of things (I'll always remember that thread with the chart that plotted where each person was on the political spectrum), that was a good thread.

I grew up just outside DC in the People's Republic of Montgomery County (Kensington), although it was probably at least 10 years earlier than when you grew up. My folks were registered Ds, but voted R from Reagan on. I'd say they were Kennedy Ds. I remember reading the Washington Post, but mostly checking the baseball box scores, reading Skins stuff, and checking the Weekend section for the movie times, not realizing the Washington Post was left of Pravda. :) I was worried about Reagan "putting us into a nuclear war" before he got elected in 1980, but was in his corner as I got into HS. When I went into the USAF I was sent to Japan and exposed to the real world, my views were solidly formed and have stayed consistent since, but more fiscally conservative as I get older.

Could I vote for a Democrat, certainly. But you can't find a fiscal conservative, limited gov't Dem to save your soul. And I agree, I haven't been inspired by the Rs in quite sometime. To me they're just the lesser of two evils. Problem is both parties are controlled at the top by special interests and solid, middle of the road, common sense candidates can't get out of primaries because the big party money stomps them almost every time. We just had a primary here in VB and the big party guy won even though he wasn't the best choice. He'll be another don't tax but keep spending RINO. He'll say the scripted things, but will be a tool for the RNC, just like Thelma Drake was.

[I][B]I would trade in Obama for either Clinton, especially Bill, in a heartbeat. I was no fan of his, but he did know how to track to the center when necessary.[/B][/I] That being said, while Clinton technically passed a surplus to Bush 2, he also passed on a recession. His housing policies were also a contributor to the current recession (but to his credit, he saw the pending problems and sounded the warning bells on this, the current crop of Ds didn't heed the warnings).

[I][B]While Bush was certainly no fiscal conservative, the Bush tax cuts did limit the impact of the 2001 recession and minimized the impact of Sept. 11th on the economy. Most of Bush's spending increases were related to Sept. 11th (DHS, etc.) and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, with bi-partisan Congressional support. [/B][/I]

I don't think changing is really the issue, the folks here that meaningfully contribute to the political discussions have different views but normally are in agreement or could come to a satisfactory agreement on 80% of the issues. The vast majority of the country is influenced heavily by soundbites and talking heads without doing any research or investigation into the issues. You could find out what the 3rd WR on the Texans did in the Week 5 fantasy league or what American Idol/Bachelor/DWTS gossip is going on before most folks could name the VP or their own congressman/ senators.[/quote]

And that's how exactly how Bush, Cheney, and Rove duped Congress into so much spending. They spun everything as a national security issue, turning it into a political issue not a policy issue, thereby questioning the patriotism of members based on their vote. Both wars were largely done by supplements and some fancy borrowing from the Chinese. And no one wants to talk about Medicare Part D, passed and unfunded by George W. Bush, adding to the mounting deficit.

I guess there's a debate to be had about Obama v. Clinton. But remember Clinton wanted a more costly and expansive healthcare bill than Obama just passed. In fact, it never saw a floor vote. And Clinton didn't inherit the worst recession in decades and two costly wars.

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=12thMan;710779]And no one wants to talk about Medicare Part D, passed and unfunded by George W. Bush, adding to the mounting deficit.[/quote]I'll talk about it. It should've never been done and was Bush and the Rs pandering to the the aging demographic for votes.

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;710786]I'll talk about it. It should've never been done and was Bush and the Rs pandering to the the aging demographic for votes.[/quote]

Thought I never say this, but I'm voting for Slingin Sam. When you running, bro? I got some peeps in Mo.County that could get you going:)

Re: Can you change?
 

I used to follow politics very closely. After a while I realized that most of the senators from either aisle are so far detached from the reality that they once represented. I guess I am a democrat but I like to think (or used to think) I am an issue person.

I voted for Obama last election. I didnt vote the election before, if I did it would have been for Raplh Nader just to help support the cause of having three major political parties. With our current 2 major political party situation, both parties gravitate to polar opposites in misguided attempts to define themselves.

I really liked John McCain as well in elections prior, but Palin is such a joke and obama seems like the real deal. With McCain I saw a man that wouldnt backdoor america or lie to us or do things he honestly didnt feel was best for our nation. Thats the leader I look for, someone who is 100% devoted to america.

when i was really into politics (i.e. arguing with people on why they are wrong and I am right), I used to like what Pat Buchannon had to say.

What woud it take for me to change? lying or knowlingly misleading. I cant stand it. Bush knowingly put forth half-truths while turning a blind eye to contradicting facts when he made his cae for us to go to war at his state of the union address. to use a fairly hallowed and special presedential speech for propoganda and strict party interest disgusted me.

If I think Obama lies to a degree that repulses me like others have in the past, i will change. (ps bill lying about a BJ isnt close to being enough)

Re: Can you change?
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;710786]I'll talk about it. It should've never been done and was Bush and the Rs pandering to the the aging demographic for votes.[/quote]

Dido's on that. It was also around that point the Rep. party forgot their conservative base and forgot about small government. I say that was the beginning of what we now know is the tea party. They got fed up with Bush over the next 6 yrs. then Obama took office and his spending along with what Bush did pushed people over the limit.