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Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[B]NFC East Projected Mean Wins[/B]
1. Philadelphia Eagles 9.3 wins (SB contender prob. 26%) 2. Washington Redskins 9.2 wins (SB contender prob. 26%) 3. New York Giants 8.7 wins (SB contender prob. 22%) 4. Dallas Cowboys: 7.5 wins (SB contender prob. 8%) **** I have also attached the entire chapter essay, written by Mike Tanier. It's a very good read, though it takes pretty much 80% of it to poke holes in our long term future, ignoring any substantial defense of the really high projection for this year. It's the second straight year that the essay for the Redskins has nothing to do with the current roster, but in a way, I think, the national media still sees the Redskins as a team on a treadmill of the same mistakes, and as this essay points out, they ARE still making the same mistakes that they were seven years ago. One way to change our plight would be to actually change the way that we build teams. But unmentioned by the article: if the Redskins can win in consecutive years, that would shut up a lot of the same story lines we've had to read forever. [quote]For a few months, the addiction cycle seemed to be broken. It appeared that the Redskins were finally clean.The Redskins have been the NFL’s unrepentant junkies for over a decade. They pursue quick fixes every offseason, enjoying a brief, expensive rush as they inject high-priced free agents and big-name trade acquisitions straight into their lineup. By December, they are almost always strung out, their roster bloated with over-the-hill veterans, their bench depleted by draft indifference, their salary cap situation tenuous. The 2009 season typified the team’s Requiem for a Dream approach to personnel management. The $100-million Albert Haynesworth deal provided heady, headline-grabbing thrills in March and made the team a fashionable playoff pick, but the team shambled dopesick through the season’s final four games. By that point, injuries had whittled the roster down to a collection of rookie free agents and no-name veterans, with Haynesworth a flabby non-factor and Jim Zorn reduced to a lame-duck figurehead with no roster or play-calling authority. Vinny Cerrato’s dismissal at the end of the 2009 season signaled a possible end to the downward spiral. Observers like Marty Schottenheimer (who once spent a year on the Redskins roller coaster) believed that Cerrato, not owner Dan Snyder, was the impatient, freespending enabler who supported the Redskins’ free agent habit. With Cerrato gone, Snyder steered clear of Julius Peppers, Karlos Dansby, and Anquan Boldin, the top veteran prizes available this winter. The Redskins were finally off the horse and ready to commit to long-range rebuilding and careful roster management under new coach Mike Shanahan and executive Bruce Allen, football lifers with experience in successful organizations. Then came the Donovan McNabb trade. Cue the Velvet Underground soundtrack. Recovery just wasn’t in the works for the Redskins. The Cerrato-to-Allen/Shanahan regime change was supposed to represent a clean break from the past, but Snyder handled it in his inimitable style. The owner courted Shanahan before Allen, undermining the new executive’s authority before he was even hired. Snyder added his signature touch of class by pursuing both very publicly in December while Zorn twisted in the wind. Shanahan represented another splashy, attention-seeking coaching hire in the mold of Steve Spurrier and Joe Gibbs. The only reasons to suspend skepticism about Shanahan in the wake of so many big-name coaching failures were his solid reputation, his decade of success in Denver, and Cerrato’s firing. Allen may have been selected after Shanahan, but at least he was a bona fide general manager, not a company man with a weakness for overpriced veterans. Shanahan and Allen offered hope, but hope fades quickly inside the Beltway. On the very day of Shanahan’s first press conference, Clinton Portis ripped Jason Campbell (still the team’s starting quarterback at that point) on ESPN radio. “Jason couldn’t take control of the huddle … That’s not his character. You can’t place so much on someone who’s not ready for that situation,” Portis said. The comments were part of an extended rant in which Portis defended his privileged relationship with Snyder (they apparently ended up at the same restaurant drinking wine “numerous times,” but only coincidently) and suggested that he’d grudgingly tone down his bromance with Snyder if a coach found it threatening. “If you didn’t want me going to sit beside him during practice when I don’t have anything to do … then OK, cool, you say that, and I’ve got to abide by that,” Portis said, sounding like someone who is neither OK nor cool with being told where he sits. The Campbell comments soon became irrelevant, but the irony of Portis’ filibuster was hard to ignore. The Shanahan press conference was a carefully orchestrated show, with Allen making the announcements and Snyder all but hiding behind a potted plant to illustrate his new inconspicuousness. At nearly the same moment, Portis was illustrating why Joe Gibbs once called him an “assistant GM.” Whatever new professionalism the Redskins hoped to project at the start of the Shanahan era would be slow to take root. For a few weeks, though, the Redskins really changed. They sat out the giddy first days of free agency. They made minor, targeted moves, signing tackle Artis Hicks while re-signing starting offensive linemen Casey Rabach and Mike Williams. All signs pointed to a patient rebuilding program, or at least the start of one. In his CBSSports.com column, Clark Judge praised the Redskins for doing “the unthinkable, the unimaginable and the damn-near-impossible when it comes to free-agent spending: just saying no.” “When the Redskins hired Shanahan, people wondered how long it would take before he would make a difference. I think we just got our answer,” Judge concluded. Then the Redskins traded for McNabb, and we got a different answer. In the short term, McNabb will improve the Redskins. His DVOA and DYAR (8.9% and 619) were only slightly better than Campbell’s (-1.8% and 335) last season, but our stats only tell part of the story. McNabb provides deep passing ability that the Redskins have lacked and desperately needed under Campbell. McNabb had effective weapons like DeSean Jackson in 2009, but he spent most of his career throwing to mediocre receivers, and the Redskins offense will get much better if he can get as much from Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly as he got from Reggie Brown or Todd Pinkston in years past. His leadership skills were ridiculed to comical lengths by the Philly media, but his Pro Bowl and playoff pedigree give him much more clubhouse credibility than Campbell ever had, and he was enthusiastically embraced by his new Redskins teammates. Most importantly, he has a decade of experience in a system similar to Shanahan’s and will be able to transition smoothly into the new offense. Campbell had learned so many offenses, dating back to his Auburn days, that indecision and confusion were setting in. One of Portis’ main complaints was the difficulty Campbell had getting the play in, a problem compounded by the fact that four different coaches had play-calling input last year. Now for the long term: McNabb is 33 and injuryprone, having played all 16 games just once in the last five seasons. His scrambling ability has declined sharply – he’s run for just 287 yards in the past two seasons – and he is going from one of the better offensive lines in the league to one of the worst. Some of McNabb’s worst games have come after the Eagles were forced to plug in unprepared offensive linemen: The two Cowboys games at the end of last season (after Jamaal Jackson was hurt) and his 12-sack game against the Giants in 2007 (Winston Justice’s first start) are obvious examples. In Washington, he’ll face the kind of pressure he felt in those games every week unless first round pick Trent Williams develops immediately and Shanahan can work some kind of blocking magic at the team’s other trouble spots. McNabb is in the decline of his career, and every sack will accelerate that decline. McNabb cost the Redskins money, but he also cost them draft picks: a high second-rounder this year, a third-rounder in 2011. The Redskins spent a decade throwing around second- and third-round picks like arcade coupons, using them to sweeten trades for veterans or to move up to select players like Campbell they later have no use for. The Redskins had no second-round pick in 2009; no first-rounder in 2008; no second-, third-, or fourth-rounder in 2007; no first-, third-, or fifth-rounder in 2006; and so on. The Redskins squandered a half-decade’s worth of productive, homegrown, moderately-priced players in their pursuit of big-name veterans. McNabb, though an upgrade, is just the latest in a long line of short-term solutions. Just months after overhauling their front office and coaching staff and promising to start clean, the addictive behavior returned. Just as Portis overshadowed Shanahan’s press conference, Haynesworth cast a pall over the McNabb party by publicly thumbing his nose at the team’s offseason workouts. It was another discouraging reminder of how quickly Redskins acquisitions reach their expiration date. McNabb obviously won’t become a Portis, Haynesworth, or DeAngelo Hall-type distraction; he’s no clubhouse politician or malcontent. He won’t be calling out teammates or skipping workouts anytime soon. But he is very likely to become an injury-prone siphon on the salary cap in the near future; probably not 2010, maybe not 2011, but all too soon. Once the Redskins took another toke of the veteranmarket, they couldn’t stop themselves. Larry Johnson and Willie Parker arrived just before McNabb, joining Portis in a three-headed backfield that would have terrified the league in 2006. Bobby Wade and Joey Galloway arrived a few weeks later as votes of no-confidence to stalled receiver prospects Kelly and Thomas. Galloway, 38 and coming off a seven-catch season, is a vintage Redskins acquisition; it’s as if Cerrato left instructions on his desk that Allen and Shanahan were forced by some blood oath to carry out. By the time 33-year-old defensive end Vonnie Holliday and 34-year-old backup linebacker Chris Draft joined the fold, it was hard to remember that the Redskins were thought of as a disciplined team committed to a youth movement as recently as April 3. The team that needed to get younger somehow got older. All of that veteran wallpapering comes with an upside. [B]The Redskins should reach the playoffs this year: They are better than they were last season, and they weren’t as bad last season as their record suggests.[/B] They fell well below their Estimated Win total of 7.3 in 2009, underperforming because of Zorn’s dreadful coaching and some special teams lapses. Zorn’s ineffectuality as a leader and strategist was evident in early season losses to the woeful Lions (the Redskins were 2-of-10 on third downs, committed 97 yards in penalties, and allowed three straight drives for a combined 41 Lions offensive plays) and Chiefs (eight three-and-out drives against an opponent that couldn’t score a touchdown). If Shaun Suisham could kick straight, the Redskins would have beaten the Cowboys in Week 11, and the Saints in Week 13. The switch from Zorn-Campbell to Shanahan-McNabb will get the Redskins to snap back to that seven-win level and then buy them an extra win or two. A schedule full of Rams, Buccaneers, and Lions gives them another boost. The NFC East will have a down season, and the Redskins get two meetings with the McNabb-less Eagles, who are actually rebuilding instead of signing 34-year-old backup linebackers. [B]The Redskins will have an offense close to league average and a solid 3-4 defense that has the right personnel for the system.[/B] Haynesworth tried his darnedest to be an offseason-long distraction, demanding a trade in June, but the Redskins defense can survive without him. Barring a Week 1 McNabb injury, the Redskins are a safe bet to compete for a wild card, if not win their division. But the Redskins haven’t built a true contender. They’ve built another version of their 2005 team, which went 10-6 in Gibbs’ second season. Gibbs promoted 35-year-old Mark Brunell over former top pick Patrick Ramsey that year, and Brunell had a 23-touchdown season. Eager to take the next step, Snyder and Cerrato added Antwaan Randle El, T.J. Duckett, Brandon Lloyd, and Adam Archuleta to the roster, even though Gibbs and his staff had no use for any of them but Randle El. The other three ate up cap and roster space, the Redskins fell to 5-11, and Brunell’s injuries led to a premature start of the Campbell era. [B]The 2010 Redskins have even worse long-range prospects than their 2005 counterparts, who at least surrounded Brunell with a young group of offensive weapons, had a pair of bookend offensive tackles in their prime, and possessed a few other assets.[/B] This year’s Redskins have an alarming number of players who are about to simultaneously grow old, and that’s not even counting lunatic acquisitions like Galloway. McNabb, Portis, Johnson, Parker, Santana Moss, Rabach, Philip Daniels, and London Fletcher are all at or approaching the downside of their careers, with Andre Carter and Derrick Dockery not far behind them. There are few obvious successors to these key players on the roster, and with training camp bloated with Galloway and Holliday types, it will be hard for the team to find and develop quality replacements. In a few years, Shanahan will be fired, McNabb will return to Philadelphia to retire with the Eagles, and Snyder will stand next to Urban Meyer heralding the start of another new era. There are two sad elements to the Redskins plight. The first is that some in the Redskins organization will feel vindicated when the team loses in the second round of the playoffs. Snyder and others will convince themselves that they made all the right moves. [B]Allen could win Executive of the Year if he takes the team from four wins to ten.[/B] There will be a lot of backslapping for a very small accomplishment. And of course, that will only encourage Snyder and company to climb back on the horse. The second is that so many of the Redskins problems are obvious and avoidable. Anyone who looks carefully at the roster can see long-term disaster brewing, and it doesn’t take much imagination to find healthier alternatives to the path the Redskins chose. The Redskins could have Jake Delhomme or Derek Anderson as their starting quarterback, with second-round pick Jimmy Clausen waiting in the wings. Or, they could have given Campbell another year, used their second-round pick on a defensive playmaker like Sergio Kindle, and let their defense win a few games while Shanahan made tough decisions on offense. Heck, they could have pulled the trigger on the McNabb deal but held off on all of the Parker-Johnson-Galloway nonsense, increasing their odds of finding a great young back or receiver who will improve as McNabb fades. The Redskins just can’t do that. They keep seeking short-term dividends that aren’t worth the long-range consequences. Of course, that’s exactly the kind of trade-off addicts make. In March, it looked like Allen and Shanahan could make a difference. Now, they’re stuck in the same web that snared Gibbs, Schottenheimer, Spurrier, and Zorn. Snyder drags good football people down with him. This year, the high will last past August, but the crash will come before February. And next year’s hangover will be as bad — or worse — than the last ten.[/quote][I]Mike Tanier, Football Outsiders Almanac 2010[/I] |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
i just deleted a bunch of comments on this article. i like footballoutsiders for their stats but i find this style of writing to very unfocused and confusing. he spends the majority of the article painting a very dark picture then says we will make the playoffs and have a chance to win the nfc east. but then says shanahan will be gone in 3 years, mcnabb back to phily and we are left with the DS and urban meyer.
where is the harm in signing the likes of galloway, parker, johnson to min contracts outside of maybe they take up one of the 53 spots instead of an undrafted FA rookie invited to camp? we didnt give up any draft picks for them so how did it increase our chances of not finding a great young runningback or receiver? what, b/c this great young undrafted runningback that grows on trees outside his house will have to compete and earn a spot? if hes great and young, he will beat out parker. i just dont see why this guy has so much hate for galloway to repeatedly refer to his signing as evidence of doom and gloom. maybe he is the lunatic.i just dont get it. moss doesnt seem like a veteran leader for our receiving core, galloway is going to be like a second coach out there. if we dont think he will contribute on the field, we can cut him or offer him a consulating position. thats what he is here for anyway, to show the young receivers how to train, study and work like a professional. What were our special team lapses? I cant think of one punt or kick return taken to the house against us last year. not to say there wasnt one, but i cant think of it. but we are a safe bet for a wild card spot or win our division? i dont mind hate, we went 4-12 but keep it consistent. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
What's particularly stupid about this piece is that he automatically assumes that because we signed a bunch of veteran dudes, that necessarily precludes younger players from making the roster.
If the Galloways and the Vonnie Hollidays don't show in camp that they are worthy of one or two more years in the NFL, then they'll be history. Bringing in Galloway and Bobby Wade is a good way to find out if Malcolm Kelly and Devin Thomas are capable of stepping up. In their third NFL season, if a direct threat to their job security doesn't get them going, nothing will. And is he actually serious in suggesting that we'd be better off with a combination of Derek Anderson and Jimmy Clausen instead of Donovan McNabb? You can't go saying shit like that and expect to be taken seriously as a writer. I mean WTF. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
Garbage.
He should stick to doing math and give up writing. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=over the mountain;711646]i just deleted a bunch of comments on this article. i like footballoutsiders for their stats but i find this style of writing to very unfocused and confusing. he spends the majority of the article painting a very dark picture then says we will make the playoffs and have a chance to win the nfc east. but then says shanahan will be gone in 3 years, mcnabb back to phily and we are left with the DS and urban meyer.
where is the harm in signing the likes of galloway, parker, johnson to min contracts outside of maybe they take up one of the 53 spots instead of an undrafted FA rookie invited to camp? we didnt give up any draft picks for them so how did it increase our chances of not finding a great young runningback or receiver? what, b/c this great young undrafted runningback that grows on trees outside his house will have to compete and earn a spot? if hes great and young, he will beat out parker. i just dont see why this guy has so much hate for galloway to repeatedly refer to his signing as evidence of doom and gloom. maybe he is the lunatic.i just dont get it. moss doesnt seem like a veteran leader for our receiving core, galloway is going to be like a second coach out there. if we dont think he will contribute on the field, we can cut him or offer him a consulating position. thats what he is here for anyway, to show the young receivers how to train, study and work like a professional. What were our special team lapses? I cant think of one punt or kick return taken to the house against us last year. not to say there wasnt one, but i cant think of it. but we are a safe bet for a wild card spot or win our division? i dont mind hate, we went 4-12 but keep it consistent.[/quote]I share a lot of your reactions to an article that was written with a slant. The leveraging of short term contracts to non-impact veterans fits nicely with the narrative of a team that keeps making the same veteran mistakes. In reality, there's going to be just as much turnover next year in the roster as there is this year. I think the greater point, which could have been better stated, is that with just two draft picks in the top four rounds, there's no way off the vicious cycle of signing veteran players to plug holes. Basically, with these veteran signings, two things can happen, neither of them good. They either drag down our performance this year and aren't retained, or they actually have a random good season at the end of a long career and then we either: retain them or have to replace the production. Either way, the winning would be built on unsustainable practices. If Thomas and Kelly were to carry the load instead of Galloway and Moss, then we don't need to change a thing, obviously. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=Schneed10;711650]If the Galloways and the Vonnie Hollidays don't show in camp that they are worthy of one or two more years in the NFL, then they'll be history. Bringing in Galloway and Bobby Wade is a good way to find out if Malcolm Kelly and Devin Thomas are capable of stepping up. In their third NFL season, if a direct threat to their job security doesn't get them going, nothing will.[/quote]Okay, I'll play Devil's Advocate:
Let's say that Galloway and Vonnie Holliday perform well in camp, displace guys like Thomas and Carriker, and help us fulfill a 9 or 10 win projection and make the postseason. It's March 2011: what do you do with the receiver and DE positions? |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=GTripp0012;711654]Okay, I'll play Devil's Advocate:
Let's say that Galloway and Vonnie Holliday perform well in camp, displace guys like Thomas and Carriker, and help us fulfill a 9 or 10 win projection and make the postseason. It's March 2011: what do you do with the receiver and DE positions?[/quote] If guys like Galloway and Holliday, at this stage of their careers, displace Thomas and Carriker, then Thomas and Carriker weren't the long term answer anyway. We would have needed to replace them in 2011 regardless, so we'd be no worse for wear. Shanahan's method of creating the competition just helps you find out about players faster. Now I'm not saying you jettison a rookie because he was beaten out by Joey Galloway. But by the time you hit your third year, your development chances are done. Put up or shut up time. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
For the record I think Devin Thomas will do pretty well in Shanahan's system and will send Galloway packing. But I like the idea of giving him some competition to keep him motivated.
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Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=Schneed10;711659]If guys like Galloway and Holliday, at this stage of their careers, displace Thomas and Carriker, then Thomas and Carriker weren't the long term answer anyway. We would have needed to replace them in 2011 regardless, so we'd be no worse for wear.
Shanahan's method of creating the competition just helps you find out about players faster. Now I'm not saying you jettison a rookie because he was beaten out by Joey Galloway. But by the time you hit your third year, your development chances are done. Put up or shut up time.[/quote]I agree with your conclusions. Which, of course, is Tanier's main point: if Galloway and Holliday are anything more than one-year roster fillers that do a little bit of pushing in camp and a lot of scout team work, then they will likely enter 2011 as the best of a bunch of bad options for a team desperately trying to hold on to a singular playoff berth while fighting off the same effects of age that the early decade Raiders had to. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
I would not be surprised if the Skins make the playoffs and go deep into it.
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Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
The faulty premise in his argument is that we'd have to endure some sort of a "loser's curse" if we made the playoffs, caused by the fact that Snyder likes to jump into our business when the future appears bright.
I think he's wrong: I doubt Dan Snyder cares about the day to day operation of the team. However, Shanahan more or less has the same track record, so that, in my opinion, might be what gets us. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
But we had no picks, so the only option we had was free agency. And beyond, McNabb, who else have we signed who is gonna cost us arm and leg? Also all these vets probably won't get long term deals. We will have to fully rebuild at one point.
Pretty poor logic to deem Galloway a "vintage" Redskins' signing. We aren't overpaying and we are bringing in cheap competition. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
On a personal note, I am unsold on our positioning as the 1a. team in the division to Philly's 1. Their Dallas projection is built on the back of a horrid projection for their offensive line depth and age, but it seems to me that even though that probably will be a banged-up, terrible disgrace of an offensive line, their defense has a lot more upside than that projection allows for, and given Romo's ability to make the first guy miss consistently, I don't see a bottom ten unit on that side of the ball until Jon Kitna takes the field.
If Dallas jumps to the top of the projection, we go from prohibitive favorite to a very fringe playoff contender, in the same boat as Philly and New Orleans -- which is tough competition, plus we'll need to hold as many tiebreakers as possible against Minnesota/Chicago/Green Bay. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=GTripp0012;711662]I agree with your conclusions.
Which, of course, is Tanier's main point: if Galloway and Holliday are anything more than one-year roster fillers that do a little bit of pushing in camp and a lot of scout team work, then they will likely enter 2011 as the best of a bunch of bad options for a team desperately trying to hold on to a singular playoff berth while fighting off the same effects of age that the early decade Raiders had to.[/quote] But that wouldn't be a function of the decision to go out and get Galloway this year, that would be a function of finding out that Devin Thomas just flat out sucks. It's just we'd learn that this year instead of next. Tanier is questioning the decision making of Shanahan and the front office, suggesting that bringing in these vets for the quick fix is more of the same. It's not at all. It's partly designed to find out about the current roster sooner rather than later. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
So this guy has us better than the Giants and Dallas???? Um I don't think so. Right now those teams are better than we are. End of discussion.
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Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=skinsfan69;711677]So this guy has us better than the Giants and Dallas???? Um I don't think so. Right now those teams are better than we are. End of discussion.[/quote]You know, you make a great point. Very well supported.
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Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=Schneed10;711676]But that wouldn't be a function of the decision to go out and get Galloway this year, that would be a function of finding out that Devin Thomas just flat out sucks.
It's just we'd learn that this year instead of next. Tanier is questioning the decision making of Shanahan and the front office, suggesting that bringing in these vets for the quick fix is more of the same. It's not at all. It's partly designed to find out about the current roster sooner rather than later.[/quote]Well, yeah. It's not like this is a new technique to ShanAllen. Gibbs and Saunders did this too. Vinny didn't because, well, Vinny didn't do a a lot of things that common sense suggested he should. If you look at our roster right now, there's a very small number of undrafted rookies compared to other teams. Those spots of "players likely to be released anyway" have been given to veteran players. So maybe Galloway gets cut so we can give a roster spot to...Mike Furrey, or someone. In other words, while our competitors might be cutting their low cost vets in camp for younger bit players, we're going to be picking and choosing between a bunch of unwanted players to fill out our roster. Theoretically, that's a complete lack of depth. None of that means that we won't find some good players somewhere, even if the young players we have aren't worth our time. I don't think Shanahan is adverse to cutting Vinny draft picks gone wrong. There is, however, a shockingly small amount of player development going on with youth of any type, and given that there's no mid round draft picks next year, that's where I think the pessimism is justified. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
Carlos Rogers isn't young anymore and Campbell's gone. That was the 05 draft. Rocky McIntosh has been shopped and may not be a scheme fit. He, Doughty, and Golston are the 06 draft. Landry is the 07 draft. Then Kelly, Thomas, Davis, Tryon and Rinehart in 08, and Orakpo/Barnes in 09. All we've gotten in development of that group is a stud edge rusher, a nickel corner (not counting Rogers, who is 29, and a UFA in 2011), a TE prospect, whatever Landry is these days, and a bunch of guys who could be replaced by veterans and we wouldn't miss them.
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Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[QUOTE=GTripp0012;711654]Okay, I'll play Devil's Advocate:
Let's say that Galloway and Vonnie Holliday perform well in camp, displace guys like Thomas and Carriker, and help us fulfill a 9 or 10 win projection and make the postseason. [B]It's March 2011: what do you do with the receiver and DE positions?[/[/B]QUOTE] Well, we've already traded away our 2011 3rd rounder.........twice! So we've got to hit it in another round. That's if there is no lock out. Has anyone seen my keys? |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=GTripp0012;711662]I agree with your conclusions.
[B]Which, of course, is Tanier's main point: if [/B]Galloway and Holliday are anything more than one-year roster fillers that do a little bit of pushing in camp and a lot of scout team work, then they will likely enter 2011 as the best of a bunch of bad options for a team desperately trying to hold on to a singular playoff berth while fighting off the same effects of age that the early decade Raiders had to.[/quote] Except he really didn't say "if," he essentially said "when." And at this point things are not that certain. If the young guys end up taking the roster spots, then Tanier's argument is deeply flawed. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=Schneed10;711650]What's particularly stupid about this piece is that he automatically assumes that because we signed a bunch of veteran dudes, that necessarily precludes younger players from making the roster.
If the Galloways and the Vonnie Hollidays don't show in camp that they are worthy of one or two more years in the NFL, then they'll be history. Bringing in Galloway and Bobby Wade is a good way to find out if Malcolm Kelly and Devin Thomas are capable of stepping up. In their third NFL season, if a direct threat to their job security doesn't get them going, nothing will. And is he actually serious in suggesting that we'd be better off with a combination of Derek Anderson and Jimmy Clausen instead of Donovan McNabb? You can't go saying shit like that and expect to be taken seriously as a writer. I mean WTF.[/quote] This. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=GTripp0012;711680]You know, you make a great point. Very well supported.[/quote]
What do want me to support it with? All I need to do is use common sense. Philly, NY, and Dallas all have a lot less question marks than we do. If I had to put money on it I'd say that we're still behind all those teams. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=skinsfan69;711721]What do want me to support it with? All I need to do is use common sense. Philly, NY, and Dallas all have a lot less question marks than we do. If I had to put money on it I'd say that we're still behind all those teams.[/quote]
Philly questionable line as far as pass pro and yet to be proven QB.. solid D NY.. questionable D if it's like last year.. aka near bottom of the league.. probably the best line overall Dallas... questionable O Line at least as far as pass pro.. good D Us.. solid D, but changing.. QB improved.. not sure on line.. just a big question mark anyone really can win the division but I don't think that it will be the Gnats.. I see us coming in 2nd or a VERY close 3rd |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=GTripp0012;711682]Well, yeah. It's not like this is a new technique to ShanAllen. Gibbs and Saunders did this too. Vinny didn't because, well, Vinny didn't do a a lot of things that common sense suggested he should.
If you look at our roster right now, there's a very small number of undrafted rookies compared to other teams. Those spots of "players likely to be released anyway" have been given to veteran players. So maybe Galloway gets cut so we can give a roster spot to...Mike Furrey, or someone. In other words, while our competitors might be cutting their low cost vets in camp for younger bit players, we're going to be picking and choosing between a bunch of unwanted players to fill out our roster. Theoretically, that's a complete lack of depth. None of that means that we won't find some good players somewhere, even if the young players we have aren't worth our time. I don't think Shanahan is adverse to cutting Vinny draft picks gone wrong. There is, however, a shockingly small amount of player development going on with youth of any type, and given that there's no mid round draft picks next year, that's where I think the pessimism is justified.[/quote] Fair points, and an accurate assessment. But unfair for him to lay the lack of depth at the feet of Shanahan/Allen. Just because they're trading picks for McNabb and Jamaal Brown doesn't mean they can't be more successful on the undrafted free agents than Vinny was. Honestly, how can they not be more successful than Vinny?? |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=skinsfan69;711677]So this guy has us better than the Giants and Dallas???? Um I don't think so. Right now those teams are better than we are. End of discussion.[/quote]
As I understand it, Football Outsiders uses a fairly sophisticated mathematical formula for their predictions, it's not just some guy saying this is what I think. They have a pretty good track record in recent years too. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
I would have to add a couple of things about the possiblity of next years free agency. There will be guys available, but it all depends on the new CBA getting done.
We can replenish the squad in FA and the draft next year, and continue building. I think we have thought of some fo the points the article brings up, but at the same time Shannahan and even Mcnabb are here beyond 3 years. DS didn't fire Joe gibbs, he retired. I think this team is mike's for as long as he wants to coach which is going to be more than 3 years. Bruce Alllen is in it for the long hall as well. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=GTripp0012;711627]One way to change our plight would be to actually change the way that we build teams. But unmentioned by the article: if the Redskins can win in consecutive years, that would shut up a lot of the same story lines we've had to read forever.[/quote]
Talk about a backhanded compliment. He thinks we'll make the playoffs but are doing everything wrong long term. I don't think the 2 are mutually exclusive and i don't think our moves from one off-season have hindered us long-term it depends on what we do next year and the year after that. [quote=Mike Tanier]But the Redskins haven’t built a true contender. They’ve built another version of their 2005 team, which went 10-6 in Gibbs’ second season. Gibbs promoted 35-year-old Mark Brunell over former top pick Patrick Ramsey that year, and Brunell had a 23-touchdown season. Eager to take the next step, Snyder and Cerrato added Antwaan Randle El, T.J. Duckett, Brandon Lloyd, and Adam Archuleta to the roster, even though Gibbs and his staff had no use for any of them but Randle El. The other three ate up cap and roster space, the Redskins fell to 5-11, and Brunell’s injuries led to a premature start of the Campbell era.[/quote] First off he's combining 2 off-seasons into 1 in the above exerpt. Second, McNabb is cleary better then Mark Brunell. Thrid, we don't know what moves we'll make next year and therefore he shouldn't assume that they'll be uneccesary and over-priced (money+draft picks). Also, the moves we've made this off-season have all been inexpensive and we don't know as yet how they'll pan out. [quote=Mike Tanier]This year’s Redskins have an alarming number of players who are about to simultaneously grow old, and that’s not even counting lunatic acquisitions like Galloway. McNabb, Portis, Johnson, Parker, Santana Moss, Rabach, Philip Daniels, and London Fletcher are all at or approaching the downside of their careers, with Andre Carter and Derrick Dockery not far behind them. There are few obvious successors to these key players on the roster, and with training camp bloated with Galloway and Holliday types, it will be hard for the team to find and develop quality replacements.[/quote] Shanahan and Allen did not create the current situation with the age of the players and the Redskins are not unlike other NFL teams that are or need to begin re-tooling. There is no doubt the backfield will need a youth infusion soon because there is no youth other then Torrian and that's if he makes the team. WR position depends on Devin and Malcolm. The OL is gonna have to get younger but i think players like Trent Williams, Rinehart, Lichtensteiger and Edwin Williams are a start. I think were pretty good on defense with good youth and some successors in place, although not big name guys. OLB has youth in Orakpo and 2 replacements waiting in the wings in Chirs Wilson and Lorenzo Alexander. ILB has Rocky and Blades, Riley and Henson being groomed. The secondary has similiar youth and depth. DL/DE-NT has Haynesworth, Golston and Carricker. ------------------- [quote]There are two sad elements to the Redskins plight. The first is that some in the Redskins organization will feel vindicated when the team loses in the second round of the playoffs[/quote] Imo, whenever a team makes it to the playoffs they have a chance to win the whole thing, just look at the 2005 Steelers. -------- [quote]The second is that so many of the Redskins problems are obvious and avoidable. Anyone who looks carefully at the roster can see long-term disaster brewing, and it doesn’t take much imagination to find healthier alternatives to the path the Redskins chose[/quote] In 1 off-season we've chosen a "path"? [quote] The Redskins could have Jake Delhomme or Derek Anderson as their starting quarterback, with second-round pick Jimmy Clausen waiting in the wings. Or, they could have given Campbell another year, used their second-round pick on a defensive playmaker like Sergio Kindle, and let their defense win a few games while Shanahan made tough decisions on offense.[/quote] No he's doing if then scenarios? Another way to view is that having McNabb gives us the opportunity to draft and groom a QB in the Kolb, Rodgers manner while still remaining competitive. [quote]Heck, they could have pulled the trigger on the McNabb deal but held off on all of the Parker-Johnson-Galloway nonsense, increasing their odds of finding a great young back or receiver who will improve as McNabb fades.[/quote] We need to fill out our roster and having Galloway and Parker is no worse if not flat out better then having Marcus Mason and Marko Mitchell. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
The other major problem with his argument that I must point out (being a salary cap person), he indicates we're headed down the same vicious cycle that puts us under salary cap constraints, and says that's likely to happen to us in 2011.
He may be a statistical wizard working for football outsiders, but he's clearly ignorant of the realities of the CBA discussions to date (or lack thereof). Chances are slim there will be football in 2011, let alone a salary cap. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=skinsfan69;711721]What do want me to support it with? All I need to do is use common sense. Philly, NY, and Dallas all have a lot less question marks than we do. If I had to put money on it I'd say that we're still behind all those teams.[/quote]Well, using common sense would work just fine.
No one is putting us ahead of those teams, necessarily, and 9 wins probably isn't going to take the division. But, if we can reach that point, we'd most likely move ahead of somebody, and probably two teams. I just don't know if the roster is good enough to reach first place in this division yet, which is the same boat that the Giants are in. They, like us, are hoping for rebound years from lots of underachieving veterans. Philly is doing the young thing, again, and according to the FO projections, that puts them on level footing with us, albeit with an arrow pointing up instead of down. That leaves just Dallas as someone that should, in theory, still be way ahead of us. Their argument that Dallas is going to be the non contender in this division is far from persuasive, IMO, but Dallas builds their team just like we do: good success on first round draft picks and lots of money spent in free agency without much of an eye on player development. Records aside, we've more or less alternated being better and worse than the Cowboys since 2003, so it's not unreasonable for the roles to flip in 2010 and us to beat them twice again. I think we're at a bunch of disadvantages in Week 1, of course. Dallas is likely to be a much better team that week than later on in the season. Of course, the same could be said about this team. Anyway, it shouldn't be hard to believe that we're even with Philly and ahead of NYG in projections because neither of those teams has improved much since last year. The gap between us and Dallas was far greater, and so if they fall from first to last, it makes it a lot easier for us to contend for a division title. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=30gut;711822]
Second, McNabb is cleary better then Mark Brunell. [/quote]McNabb wasn't better in Philly than Mark Brunell was in Jacksonville. [URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/McNaDo00.htm"]Donovan McNabb NFL & AFL Football Statistics | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL] [URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrunMa00.htm"]Mark Brunell NFL & AFL Football Statistics | Pro-Football-Reference.com[/URL] They're pretty similar players, overall. Mike Shanahan and Joe Gibbs both put stress on the quarterback getting the ball out of his hands as not to stall the offense, so we'll probably see an improvement in McNabb's sack rate similar to that seen in Brunell's Washington days and also [URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PlumJa00.htm"]Jake Plummer's Denver days[/URL]. While you can't say that McNabb is better than Brunell when they came over, he might very well turn out to be a better Redskins quarterback. Comparing the compensation packages for each, I'd expect Shanahan is getting a better project than Gibbs is. Or more accurately, he thinks he is.[quote]Thrid, we don't know what moves we'll make next year and therefore he shouldn't assume that they'll be uneccesary and over-priced (money+draft picks). Also, the moves we've made this off-season have all been inexpensive and we don't know as yet how they'll pan out.[/quote]We don't know anything about the moves that will be made for next year's team, only that they will be numerous, and the team is already short two draft picks, and is looking into some sort of Haynesworth-Jackson swap, possibly costing a third draft pick. A lot of it will depend on how the team does this year...the better they perform in 2010, the more likely they are to be veteran-laden in 2011. I don't want to rule out some shrewd FA pickups, like they did in 2004 with Springs, Washington, and Griffin, but open player markets are getting more barren by the year, and the new CBA could restrict player movement even more. [quote]We need to fill out our roster and having Galloway and Parker is no worse if not flat out better then having Marcus Mason and Marko Mitchell.[/quote]Mason is a replacement level player with no developmental upside, so he's probably not a good example for me, but Mitchell is an excellent example of the fact that there's absolutely no player development going on in Washington. He may or may not have fit the scheme or had any sort of long term potential under Kyle Shanahan, but rather than fool around with a 25 year old longshot for a year and risk a sub-replacement performance, we cut him outright in June and look to be going with some sort of veteran in the fourth receiver role. It's only a few plays per game, so whatever, but the interest is clear: we have two third year players for youth who are already pretty developed (at least as close to their primes as we can reasonably expect), so there's no reason to have even more young depth at the position. We instead must "push" Thomas/Kelly to perform now. Now, now, now. We didn't replace Mitchell with a more scheme-friendly developmental prospect, rather, we just scrapped the idea of player development at the position. Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen both fall heavily on the nature side of the nature/nurture NFL talent continuum. Both have failed mightily in the draft with "raw" prospects, and do much better when selecting older draft eligible types who can learn on the field. We certainly are going to press Forester's ability to turn some late round picks into serviceable starting lineman -- at least one should emerge on the 2011 OL. But at WR/RB/DL/LB/DB, there's no emphasis on development. Which means vets instead of unproven rookies over the next four years. If they keep drafting superstars in the first round every year, they'll keep winning. Vinny left a pretty nifty present with Orakpo, and I like Trent Williams as a line anchor for at least the next three or four years, hopefully longer. If we hit on first rounders in 2011 and 2012, we'll have a nice amount of young talent regardless of the lean towards veteran productivity. One miss and that's when the "age will get us" predictions start to hit their mark. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=Lotus;711706]Except he really didn't say "if," he essentially said "when." And at this point things are not that certain. If the young guys end up taking the roster spots, then Tanier's argument is deeply flawed.[/quote]Well I think he could have doubled the essay size and wrote something that looked at the other side of the Redskins plight if things start to unexpectedly turn upward in the player development category, and then his piece probably wouldn't have come off on such a negative slant.
The biggest problems are that 1) the pure quantity of young talent isn't that high because of traded draft choices and also because of Vinny's curious tendency to spend mid and late round picks on special teams projects who end up not being able to keep Byron freakin Westbrook off the roster, and 2) the young talent that was drafted under Vinny (outside of Orakpo) appears unlikely to develop. There's still time, of course. It's just not very promising, which is why I don't have my faith invested in the outcome of Devin Thomas/Malcolm Kelly/Chad Rinehart/Kevin Barnes anymore. We could theoretically still get four quality starters from that group. If we got two quality starters, everyone on the board would take that average return from those two 2s and two 3s. I think it's likely we'll get just one of the four: Kelly. Barnes and Rinehart are blocked by vets right now (Buchanon and Artis Hicks) which is why I say the team appears uninterested in developing talent when it's so easy to sign a cheap vet and ignore that you ever used a draft choice at the position. Thomas and Kelly are still blocked by the promise of each other, but at least no longer by Randle El. If one or the other can play, we will certainly know by year's end. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=Schneed10;711748]Honestly, how can they not be more successful than Vinny??[/quote]I am an unabashed Bruce Allen fan, but I would have paired his veteran savvy and considerable job security with a younger coach who would have been much more likely to oversee a new age of player development. Shanahan is going to try to win a super bowl with McNabb, and probably will be unsuccessful, and then probably settle in to the same Gruden/Allen path of not choosing a quarterback to succeed McNabb, but rather having a little competition every year, and maintaining high roster turnover.
It really did work in Tampa for awhile, but they also preyed on a lot of wrongheaded organizations to make the postseason every year. Atlanta and New Orleans prior to 2006 had no direction. In the NFC East, I don't think the high-turnover route is going to produce a lot of success. Those first place finishes in Tampa would have been second or third place finishes in a more competitive division. ### Vinny's roster was a lot deeper at most positions than recent Redskins rosters, including the current one. Admittedly, most of the depth was concentrated on defense, and the guy running that operation wouldn't have been able to figure out how to use guys that weren't starters effectively, but our defense has been remarkably healthy since the 2006 disaster. We really needed the depth on offense, and had it at just one position where it was needed: running back. The starting receivers were as bad as the backups, and the OL had no depth whatsoever, which is where Vinny was intentionally cutting corners. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
The Seattle chapter in FOA 2010 brought up a great point: Tim Ruskell took the exact same risk with Walter Jones that Vinny took with Chris Samuels, and got almost identical negative results, including a firing. The only real difference between our offense last year and Seattle's was quarterback play, where Campbell substancially outperformed Hasselbeck with a nearly identical supporting cast (another reason why QB age matters). Either way, neither team won six games, and both personnel guys were fired for their risks-gone-bad.
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Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=GTripp0012;711832]The Seattle chapter in FOA 2010 brought up a great point: Tim Ruskell took the exact same risk with Walter Jones that Vinny took with Chris Samuels, and got almost identical negative results, including a firing. The only real difference between our offense last year and Seattle's was quarterback play, where Campbell substancially outperformed Hasselbeck with a nearly identical supporting cast [B](another reason why QB age matters)[/B]. Either way, neither team won six games, and both personnel guys were fired for their risks-gone-bad.[/quote]
What evidence is there to support the notion that Hasselbeck underperformed because of his age? |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=GTripp0012;711680]You know, you make a great point. Very well supported.[/quote]
LOL.....Look Dallas will win some games but in the end will choke ...Romo always does.As for the Giants ....Offensively QB ..Eli has gotten better and I think our young wide recievers are our best unit on O, the O line has gotten old fast but with healthy running backs which they did not have at all last year can be much better. Defensively ......health is the question,if the Giants stay healthy on D...it's a very good unit .My own opinion is our biggest concern is MLBer will one of the rookies step up or will Goff play better with a healthy D line in front of him?Our DB's all took to many hits last year with the front 7 being decimated with the addition of Rolle at safety and a healthy front 7...the Giants can make some noise in the playoffs this year,if not Coughlin is gone and Bill Cowher will be the next coach of the NY Giants. I try to stay away from predictions ...to many posibilties can change things...injuries and such but as of now this is how I see things shaping up......... 1) Giants...win divison 2)Skins...Wild card 3)Cowboys Wild card 4) Eagles |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=GTripp0012;711828]
Mason is a replacement level player with no developmental upside, so he's probably not a good example for me, but Mitchell is an excellent example of the fact that there's absolutely no player development going on in Washington. [/quote] Marko was cut by the Lions. He couldn't beat out Northcutt or Byrant Johnson over there. If he really had any upside, he would have shown it by now. |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
The fact we cut Mitchell means we have no player development at all? Sure, whatever
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Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=GTripp0012;711828]McNabb wasn't better in Philly than Mark Brunell was in Jacksonville. They're pretty similar players, overall............While you can't say that McNabb is better than Brunell when they came over, he might very well turn out to be a better Redskins quarterback.[/quote]
I think you can most certainly can say that McNabb is better then Brunell was in Jax we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll take McNabbs win percentage, production, division titles, playoffs appearances and pro-bowls anyday. [quote]We don't know anything about the moves that will be made for next year's team, only that they will be numerous, and the team is already short two draft picks, and is looking into some sort of Haynesworth-Jackson swap, possibly costing a third draft pick. A lot of it will depend on how the team does this year...the better they perform in 2010, the more likely they are to be veteran-laden in 2011....I don't want to rule out some shrewd FA pickups, like they did in 2004 with Springs, Washington, and Griffin, but open player markets are getting more barren by the year, and the new CBA could restrict player movement even more.[/quote] I don't neccesarily disagree with what you're saying, but its still speculation at this point and Tainer goes on like it a proven fact. [quote]Mason is a replacement level player with no developmental upside, so he's probably not a good example for me, but Mitchell is an excellent example of the fact that there's absolutely no player development going on in Washington.....we have two third year players for youth who are already pretty developed (at least as close to their primes as we can reasonably expect), so there's no reason to have even more young depth at the position. We instead must "push" Thomas/Kelly to perform now. Now, now, now. We didn't replace Mitchell with a more scheme-friendly developmental prospect, rather, we just scrapped the idea of player development at the position.[/quote] Mitchell although a fan favorite and pre-season stud was imo a replacement level player. And to say there's no player development isn't accurate because Armstrong seems to fit the mold PF/KR/WR and we're already developing or seeking the fruits of our own developmental WRs now. It seems logical to me that our WR mix includes our unproven youth/developmental players + veterans as opposed to unproven youth backed up by developmental players. [quote]Mike Shanahan and Bruce Allen both fall heavily on the nature side of the [B][U]nature/nurture [/U][/B]NFL talent continuum. Both have failed mightily in the draft with "raw" prospects, and do much better when selecting older draft eligible types who can learn on the field. [/quote] Its debateable b/c Shanahan has success with both, bottom line for me is the guy can develop offensive talent young or veteran. (Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Tony Scheffler, Peyton Hillis, Ryan Clady...Terrel Davis, Shanon Sharpe, Rod Smith) [quote] We certainly are going to press Forester's ability to turn some late round picks into serviceable starting lineman -- at least one should emerge on the 2011 OL. [/quote] On the OL Shanahan likes talented players be it from the draft or FA i'm sure if the talent pool is barren Forester will be given the personelle he needs. But, Shanahan has a history of raising the performance level of his players, which is a sign of a good coaching. [quote]But at WR/RB/DL/LB/DB, there's no emphasis on development. Which means vets instead of unproven rookies over the next four years.[/quote] You gotta keep in mind we're talking about 1 off-season they Shanahan/Allen inherited the current state of affairs and you can only guess at what they'll do next year so you can't say there's no emphais on development. Especially since some of the positions you mention have developmental players on the roster now. WRs- we've already been through Devin/Malcolm are our developmental players then there's also Armstrong (if/when he makes the team). RB- agreed as yet no developmental prospects; although the backs we have now are argueably better then the developmental prospects from last year DL-In the 1st year of a new DL scheme its gonna be difficult to have developmental players but the DE position has a player in his prime Haynesworth and 2 relatively young/not old players in Carriker and Golston NT-No decent developmental prospects ILB-Blades, Riley and Henson OLB-Chris Wilson, Alexander, Jarmon, Jackson, Gatewood DB-Kareem Moore, Tryon, Barnes, Westbrook |
Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=Schneed10;711840]What evidence is there to support the notion that Hasselbeck underperformed because of his age?[/quote]Well, in Hasselbeck's case, age decline isn't the only reason he hasn't performed at pro bowl level the last two seasons: his cast has declined around him, and the system has changed on him -- he did one thing for so long that he became a system player of sorts -- but certainly the age 35 version isn't anything remotely resembling the age 32 version.
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Re: Football Outsiders Picks Redskins to Make Postseason
[quote=SmootSmack;711846]The fact we cut Mitchell means we have no player development at all? Sure, whatever[/quote]More like there's no player development [U]and[/U] also we happened to cut Mitchell -- more independent than dependent -- but I guess if you want to say that we don't actually need to keep young players on the offensive side of the roster to develop players, that's okay with me.
Hey, maybe Colt Brennan will win the starting QB job in camp, in the spirit of "competition". He's young. Sort of. |
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