Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/27/AR2010082703750_2.html]Top to bottom, Shanahan takes charge of Redskins[/url]

[QUOTE]But Shanahan says there's no chance of winning it all if everyone isn't buying into the plan. He likes to tell the story of how he jettisoned former first-round receivers Mike Pritchard and Anthony Miller in favor of undrafted Rod Smith and free agent Ed McCaffrey during his early years as head coach of the Broncos, the lesson being that no one is irreplaceable[/QUOTE]

That right there is a strong message to Thomas and Kelly...though I think they both make the final roster

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

[quote=SmootSmack;724676][url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/27/AR2010082703750_2.html]Top to bottom, Shanahan takes charge of Redskins[/url]



That right there is a strong message to Thomas and Kelly...though I think they both make the final roster[/quote]

If Kelly makes the team I hope it's on IR. Part of me thinks that Kelly should get a chance, as if you release him after telling him to make sure he's healthy it sends a bad and dangerous message. Still at this point I would much rather see AA (Armstrong and Austin) over Thomas and Kelly.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Austin has shown me little...He needs to play well tonight imo...

If Armstrong plays well tonight and doesn't make the team,then we will finally know that NFL is all political BS cause that would be a crime and he would be snatched up immediately by someone else.

I want to see banks get more return chances than last week. That guy is down right dangerous.
Currently....my favorite NEW Skins
I'll actually be pissed,if he doesn't make the team.
I think he could run backwards better than ARE did for us..

I also really like that Perry Riley Kid as well from LSU.
If he plays lights out tonight...I'm not sure he doesn't make that 4th LB spot.
Probably not cause there all against 2nd and 3rd teams...but this kid can play.
Good tackler as well.

we need that around here.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Great read had not caught that article yet.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Definitely a great article.. I'm definitely glad we got Shanahan.. This kind of management is what we need right now..

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Great read. Shanahan has really made an impact from top to bottom in this organization.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Yeah, good article -- Shanahan is a great coach not only because he is a great 'coach' but because he brings credibility and a proven track record to the Redskins. You can't oversell the importance of organizational structure, especially in a corporation as varied in its functions like the Redskins.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

The article quotes Shanahan as saying that he does not carry a 2-point conversion chart because he does not need one. I found this to be tragically ironic against the Jets. Shanny should have gone for 2 on our last touchdown, which was engineered by the unstoppable Rich Bartel.

We scored with 2 minutes left, putting us up 4 points at 15-11. If you kick the extra point you go up 5 points - there is not a big difference between 4 and 5 points so late in the game. But if you get two points, you go up six points, which covers you from the scenario where they score a touchdown but miss the extra point (as had already happened earlier). If we miss getting 2 points, then we're up 4 points, which again is not that different from being up 5 points.

This was not a big deal. It was not a gamebreaker or anything. But still we should have gone for 2 points. I think Shanny should carry a chart.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

I hear ya Lotus, but I think it is preseason, and shanny didn't want to risk OT, more than getting the 6pt lead. Besides, our D will actually stop teams in the clutch this year!

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[quote=aceinthehouse;724682]Austin has shown me little...He needs to play well tonight imo...

[B]If Armstrong plays well tonight and doesn't make the team,then we will finally know that NFL is all political BS[/B] cause that would be a crime and he would be snatched up immediately by someone else.

I want to see banks get more return chances than last week. That guy is down right dangerous.
Currently....my favorite NEW Skins
I'll actually be pissed,if he doesn't make the team.
I think he could run backwards better than ARE did for us..

I also really like that Perry Riley Kid as well from LSU.
If he plays lights out tonight...I'm not sure he doesn't make that 4th LB spot.
Probably not cause there all against 2nd and 3rd teams...but this kid can play.
Good tackler as well.

we need that around here.[/quote]

Huh?? That makes no sense.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Armstrong is making the team, I wouldn't even worry about that.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

It's nice when people in charge have a PLAN, who would of thought that.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

[quote=GMScud;725013]Huh?? That makes no sense.[/quote]

What part did you not understand that you had in bold?

Politcal B.S. is when you do something for your party rather than the team.(people)

In other words..keeping Malcolm Kelly and cutting Armstrong would fall in this category.

One is a 2nd round pick and making more money
the other isn't

Keeping Willie Parker and or L.J. over K. Williams
Both are 2-time pro bowlers
the other isn't

Does that makes since now?

Hopefully,this doesn't happen in the Shanny regime,Politics plays a huge role in decisions made regardless.

From draft pick status
Money they make
etc.

What,you think Adam Archuleta was good enough to start over the guys behind him at the time?
ah...now you see

That's what I'm talking about on that GM.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Nice piece....I love our new young WRs! Specially Armstrong, that guy belongs in the league!

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

I understand what you saying but the fact that Kelly was printed on the recent tickets makes me think they had BIG plans for him so if they can they might try to keep him IMO.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Is Devin Thomas hurt? Why am I not seeing him on the field?

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

[quote=saden1;725040]Is Devin Thomas hurt? Why am I not seeing him on the field?[/quote]

He wasn't hurt MS said he was looking to see certain people today and I guess DT wasn't one of them. IMO this could mean

1. What MS said
2. DT has made the final 53
3. DT will be cut
4. Game 4 will be his final chance to make the team
5. DT will be traded SS bought this up last nite as a JOKE.
6. I'm reading to much into it.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Thomas is making the team

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

[quote=Mattyk;725043]Thomas is making the team[/quote]There is a roster crunch coming that makes me skeptical that the Redskins are going to have space on the roster for everyone they want to keep (and I'm not sure how much Thomas fits in that category), but Thomas is a really great player on special teams, so I would think that if it's just him v. Terrence Austin purely on merit, Thomas would get the nod.

Austin does seem to have some upside as a receiver though.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

I love the way MS has taken charge of this whole show. He is a great coach and we are lucky to have him.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;725008]I hear ya Lotus, but I think it is preseason, and shanny didn't want to risk OT, more than getting the 6pt lead. Besides, our D will actually stop teams in the clutch this year![/quote]

I also think there is a greater potential for injury in a 2 pt conversion than an XP

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

^ I respectfully offer that not only was the 2-point conversion the right call, also we should be working on 2-pointers in the preseason. If we don't practice them in the preseason, when will we get live action practice?

We should have gone for 2 and Shanny missed it.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Agreed, Armstrong should definitely make the team. No more practice squad for him, I think he has proven his value, esp against the Ravens.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

[quote=Lotus;725060]^ I respectfully offer that not only was the 2-point conversion the right call, also we should be working on 2-pointers in the preseason. If we don't practice them in the preseason, when will we get live action practice?

We should have gone for 2 and Shanny missed it.[/quote]

I don't know. If I'm a coach I don't want anyone to have an idea of what me or my players are going to do on a 2 point conversion until I really need it.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

Yeah I do not see a need to go for a 2 point conversion in a preseason game.

Especially when you have grey beard Brunnel under center for the Jets at this point in the game.

And what did the old man do, get sacked and fumble the ball, game over. Why show anything you do not want the other 13 teams we will play in the regular season some game tape of a 2point conversion play?

Lotus I just think you are trying to argue for the sake of having a debate. :)

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;725071]Yeah I do not see a need to go for a 2 point conversion in a preseason game.

Especially when you have grey beard Brunnel under center for the Jets at this point in the game.

And what did the old man do, get sacked and fumble the ball, game over. Why show anything you do not want the other 13 teams we will play in the regular season some game tape of a 2point conversion play?

[B]Lotus I just think you are trying to argue for the sake of having a debate.[/B] :)[/quote]

No I'm not.

To my detractors:
1) although the right move was to hedge bets with a 6 point lead, if the Jets had scored chances are they most likely would have gotten 7. So the argument about overtime does not work.

2) on 4th down on the last play of the game, we could have kicked but we ran the ball instead. If kicking was a way to avoid injury, as argued previously, then we would have kicked on the last play of the game.

3) I never said that we should open up the playbook. Just run off tackle or something. Run the same play which we ran, again, on 4th down the last play of the game.

4) The Jets could have run back the kickoff and we did not know Brunell would fumble. Brunell's gray beard had nothing to do with it.

I'm sorry but proper strategy is to go for 2 points. Other very smart and successful coaches have a handy 2-point chart, so Shanny could, too. Shanny blew the call. If he blows a 2-point call later in the season, you'll hear from me again.

All that said, it was not a big deal.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

If Shanahan goes for 2 points and misses, a touchdown beats you by three. If he goes for 2 and gets it, a touchdown still beats you by one.

Going for two would have been meaningless either way.

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[quote=Beemnseven;725085]If Shanahan goes for 2 points and misses, a touchdown beats you by three. If he goes for 2 and gets it, a touchdown still beats you by one.

Going for two would have been meaningless either way.[/quote]

Unless the extra point on the hypothetical Jets touchdown is missed. Good strategy means hedging your bet against that possibility by trying to create a 6-point cushion rather than just moving from a 4 to a 5 point lead.

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[quote=Lotus;725096]Unless the extra point on the hypothetical Jets touchdown is missed. Good strategy means hedging your bet against that possibility by trying to create a 6-point cushion rather than just moving from a 4 to a 5 point lead.[/quote]I do believe your "coaches maximize win expectancy in the preseason" assumption is a tad faulty. From a pure W/L perspective, we have absolutely nothing to gain from kicking the extra point there. Might as well take a knee on the PAT try.

But for Shanahan to have made the wrong call there, we have to assume that the goal is to win the preseason game, even if overtime is necessary. On the contrary, there's plenty of evidence that coaches are averse to overtime in preseason situations.

Jeff Fisher, who uses the chart, went for two down by four points in the final four minutes in the preseason's first week vs. Seattle. Of course, this is not what the chart suggests because the chart [U]always[/U] instructs coaches to play for the tie where applicable.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

[quote=GTripp0012;725098]I do believe your "coaches maximize win expectancy in the preseason" assumption is a tad faulty. From a pure W/L perspective, we have absolutely nothing to gain from kicking the extra point there. Might as well take a knee on the PAT try.

But for Shanahan to have made the wrong call there, we have to assume that the goal is to win the preseason game, even if overtime is necessary. On the contrary, there's plenty of evidence that coaches are averse to overtime in preseason situations.

Jeff Fisher, who uses the chart, went for two down by four points in the final four minutes in the preseason's first week vs. Seattle. Of course, this is not what the chart suggests because the chart [U]always[/U] instructs coaches to play for the tie where applicable.[/quote]

The Fisher example supports my argument: why not go for two and get some practice? And none of you naysayers has really responded to the question, "Why not?"

The point is simple: the difference between 4 or 5 points is meaningless, a 6 point lead likely is meaningless but might not be. So, in this case, you take the "might not be meaningless" option. Especially in a preseason game, where practicing scenarios is a good idea (see Jeff Fisher).

In the heat of battle, decision-making can become cloudy. This is why even the best coaches keep 2-point charts. I think I am right about Shanny blowing it, but even if I'm not, the arrogance of the practice of not keeping a chart frightens me.

My point is simple. Whether the point is accepted or not by others, I am done here.

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

[quote=Lotus;725116]The Fisher example supports my argument: why not go for two and get some practice? And none of you naysayers has really responded to the question, "Why not?"

The point is simple: the difference between 4 or 5 points is meaningless, a 6 point lead likely is meaningless but might not be. So, in this case, you take the "might not be meaningless" option. Especially in a preseason game, where practicing scenarios is a good idea (see Jeff Fisher).

In the heat of battle, decision-making can become cloudy. This is why even the best coaches keep 2-point charts. I think I am right about Shanny blowing it, but even if I'm not, the arrogance of the practice of not keeping a chart frightens me.

My point is simple. Whether the point is accepted or not by others, I am done here.[/quote]I would say: it's preseason for the kickers as well.

I think you raised an interesting point re: Shanahan, his ego, and the 2 pt chart. But if a 4 or 5 point lead gives you a 99.8% chance of avoiding overtime, while a 6 point lead gives you a 95% chance of avoiding overtime, and the point is to avoid overtime at all potential costs, then kicking the x pt is the rational decision.

Unless of course there was a specific play you wanted to try and put on film for the opponent. I mean, we only scored once so that would have been the only opportunity to do so. But in the absence of this specific scenario, the two point chart is not applicable here (and if we did want to practice something, the chart probably wouldn't have played into that either).

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I really don't see what the big deal is about not carrying around the 2 point chart. Seems that any experienced coach should have a good sense of when to go for 2. I'd be interested to know how many coaches carry the chart vs not.

As far as the other night, I honestly don't see where that's a go for 2 situation even if it was a regular season game.

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[quote=Mattyk;725190][B]I really don't see what the big deal is about not carrying around the 2 point chart. Seems that any experienced coach should have a good sense of when to go for 2[/B]. I'd be interested to know how many coaches carry the chart vs not.

As far as the other night, I honestly don't see where that's a go for 2 situation even if it was a regular season game.[/quote]

Agreed. I think most fans sitting at home can do the remedial math in their head (even after a few Dogfish Head 60 min). Plus I got to think the OC in the box has that ready to go.

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[quote=BaltimoreSkins;725207]Agreed. I think most fans sitting at home can do the remedial math in their head (even after a few Dogfish Head 60 min). [B][I][U] Plus I got to think the OC in the box has that ready to go[/U][/I][/B].[/quote]

Exactly. This is such a non issue.......lol

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[quote=Mattyk;725190]I really don't see what the big deal is about not carrying around the 2 point chart. Seems that any experienced coach should have a good sense of when to go for 2. I'd be interested to know how many coaches carry the chart vs not.

As far as the other night, I honestly don't see where that's a go for 2 situation even if it was a regular season game.[/quote]Yeah, my opinion is that if a head coach needs to go to a chart to make a decision on a 2 pt conversion, he's likely struggling to handle the game management aspect of football from a much wider perspective.

It's free to have the chart on the sideline, but I believe it is rarely practical to use it as the be-all-end-all. If you're down 16 with five minutes to go, and you score a touchdown, the chart says to go for two. If you don't understand the logic behind why the chart says this, I really don't want you coaching my team.

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[quote=Mattyk;725190]As far as the other night, I honestly don't see where that's a go for 2 situation even if it was a regular season game.[/quote]In a regular season game, it's an easy go for two situation. Win probability is unchanged at 4 or 5 points up w/2 minutes to go. It [I]is[/I] changed at 6 points up because you at least make the kicker execute the point after.


So while it likely doesn't matter, you've got to make it a six point lead if given the opportunity. If the improbable happens, and they return the kick for a score and get the two point conversion and lead by three (instead of one), a coach will be raked over the coals for missing an obvious opportunity to increase his chances of winning. So while it probably doesn't matter, any time he can hedge against mass criticism, a coach must do it.

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Its preseason, and shanny already said he is passing alot more than rushing in order to see and evaluate his WR's. W?L means absolutely nothing in PS, and what the hell does it matter? run a conversion play because they theoretically could miss an extra point attempt if they score a touchdown?

Are you kidding me? LOL. Shanny must not be taking this team seriously. We should can him, and this 2 point conversion that he didnt run just proves he is here for a big payday, and not to win.

DAMN HIM......of all the luck......

Re: Top to Bottom, Shanahan Takes Charge
 

[quote=Mechanix544;725250]Its preseason, and shanny already said he is passing alot more than rushing in order to see and evaluate his WR's. W?L means absolutely nothing in PS, and what the hell does it matter? run a conversion play because they theoretically could miss an extra point attempt if they score a touchdown?

Are you kidding me? LOL. Shanny must not be taking this team seriously. We should can him, and this 2 point conversion that he didnt run just proves he is here for a big payday, and not to win.

DAMN HIM......of all the luck......[/quote]

Yeah lets start the cowher chant now. LMAO.

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[quote=GTripp0012;725239]In a regular season game, it's an easy go for two situation. Win probability is unchanged at 4 or 5 points up w/2 minutes to go. It [I]is[/I] changed at 6 points up because you at least make the kicker execute the point after.


So while it likely doesn't matter, you've got to make it a six point lead if given the opportunity. If the improbable happens, and they return the kick for a score and get the two point conversion and lead by three (instead of one), a coach will be raked over the coals for missing an obvious opportunity to increase his chances of winning. So while it probably doesn't matter, any time he can hedge against mass criticism, a coach must do it.[/quote]

At least one person sees some of my reasoning. Lol.

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[quote=Lotus;725268]At least one person sees some of my reasoning. Lol.[/quote]


I understand but certain people ripped the Ravens for practicing a fake punt but people want us to practice 2pt conversions. IMO you can't say NO to this but YES to that.