Offensive line shakeup
 

Derrick Dockery is in danger of losing his starting job to Kory Lichtensteiger.

[QUOTE][url=http://voices.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/larry-johnson/larry-johnson-move-a-special-t.html?wprss=redskinsinsider]Redskins Insider - Larry Johnson move: a special teams shortage or running game frustration?[/url]

The offensive line's poor play has been a growing concern internally for some time, according to team sources who have watched as the first-team group has struggled during practice. With three new starters, the line already was in a state of flux to start the preseason. And that was before left guard Derrick Dockery was in danger of losing his starting job to Kory Lichtensteiger, who was out of football last season after being waived by the Minnesota Vikings in late September.

The coaching staff believes Dockery is a bad fit for Shanahan's zone blocking scheme, according to multiple people familiar with the situation. Right tackle Jammal Brown has not yet regained his Pro Bowl form after sitting out the entire 2009 season because of injuries, gifted rookie left tackle Trent Williams could miss Sunday's game against the St. Louis Rams because of knee and toe injuries, right guard Artis Hicks probably would be more effective in a backup/swing role and cerebral center Casey Rabach struggles against the league's big nose guards.[/QUOTE]

This is surprising, because Dock is a solid lineman, but I guess the offensive scheme can make or break any player. [B]Someone really needs to step up and take Rabach's job.[/B]

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Well thanks Mr. Redskins Insider, that whole second paragraph is depressing. Maybe we should just throw every down.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

some of it's true, some of it sounds like somebody hitting the panic button. Takes time for everybody to gel in this new offense. As long as they make an honest commitment to it (Specifically, running the ball) things should be fine.

i agree with the Rabach part. Ratliff ran thru him like he was a stop sign. Good thing Portis was there for pass protection lol.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Artis Hicks looks much worse than I thought he would. Jammal Brown has been disappointing IMO as well. I think its a little early for the panic button because as they play together longer its more likely to get better than worse because it seems to be a ton of timing involved in the scheme. Sellers whiffing on lead blocks or getting locked up and thrown doesnt help the run blocking game.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

This is nothing new. The writing has been on the wall since, perhaps before, training camp with D.Docks. One of the talk shows here reported a while ago that even the previous staff felt that Dockery didn't have a good year. So it's obvious the way Shanny has been rotating he's feeling his way forward with the starting five and Docker isn't a part of the team's long term plans.

Hopefully it get's settled pretty soon, but I wouldn't expect to see this rotating stuff for much longer.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

My biggest concern is the health of Trent Williams and who is going to substitute for him if he can't go. Do you move Jamaal Brown over to LT and put Heyer at RT? Do you place Heyer at LT and get your QB killed?

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=hail_2_da_skins;737456]My biggest concern is the health of Trent Williams and who is going to substitute for him if he can't go. Do you move Jamaal Brown over to LT and put Heyer at RT? Do you place Heyer at LT and get your QB killed?[/quote]

I think Heyer playing the LT will be fine for this week against the Rams. Don't change everyone else becuase you may have lost Williams for 1 week. I'm hoping Williams plays anyway, but if he doesn't I think Heyer is fine against the Rams. The Eagles???? not so much. If Williams has to be hurt for one week, this is the best week for it to happen.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Old news.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Buster;737392]Derrick Dockery is in danger of losing his starting job to Kory Lichtensteiger.



[B]This is surprising, because Dock is a solid lineman,[/B] but I guess the offensive scheme can make or break any player. [B]Someone really needs to step up and take Rabach's job.[/B][/quote]

I do not agree with you. Dockery is an average to slightly below average lineman. Saying he is solid is generous description. He is very limited due to his very slow foot speed/work and seems to make mental mistakes like jumping offside on a regular basis.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Shanahan's lines in Denver were always on the smaller side, but they could move well sideline to sideline. Taking that into account it's no big surprise that Dock is fighting for his job.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

In essence what we're saying is that we still have problems where the offensive line is concerned. Please!! don't let this be a repeat performance.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I agree that this is old news, except for Trent's injury.

It's clear we don't yet have the personnel on the line to play Shanny-style zone blocking. This is a legacy of Vinny (and Gibbs). Vinny refused to draft quality on the O-line and Gibbs favored a power game. This won't be fixed this year, I'm afraid. Get used to it. Let's hope folks step up and let's hope the passing game continues to grow. And then lets draft some talent!

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I guess the season is over:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=JWsleep;737487]I agree that this is old news, except for Trent's injury.

It's clear we don't yet have the personnel on the line to play Shanny-style zone blocking. This is a legacy of Vinny (and Gibbs). Vinny refused to draft quality on the O-line and Gibbs favored a power game. This won't be fixed this year, I'm afraid. Get used to it. Let's hope folks step up and let's hope the passing game continues to grow. And then lets draft some talent![/quote]

Just judging from what folks are saying, we don't have the personell to play on the lines on either side of the ball. O/line can't run block, D/line can't stop the run. What do we do now?

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I guess now days we don't give the O line time to click. Its only two games into the season and heel last week I thought they did a great job against Houston. I mean they ate up the Colts line and had trouble getting to McNabb. I think the running game will come around.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

jeez some need to relax, we're still much improved over last year's nightmare of a line.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mattyk;737499]jeez some need to relax, we're still much improved over last year's nightmare of a line.[/quote]

Infinitely better.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=firstdown;737495]I guess now days we don't give the O line time to click. Its only two games into the season and heel last week I thought they did a great job against Houston. I mean they ate up the Colts line and had trouble getting to McNabb. I think the running game will come around.[/quote]

For whatever the reasons, patience is something that somehow manages to escape some of our die-hard fans.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I would almost call the pass blocking "great." It's been far better than I expected. I know that TW being out changes that but at least Heyer was a decent pass blocker in the past, just not much of a run blocker.

I attribute part of the poor running game to our lack of outside threats. Other than Moss no one is scared of our wr's. I bet Houston was shocked to get beat deep by Galloway. Since teams aren't playing us deep there are more guys in the box. I can't say I've counted the no. of times but on several plays it looks like the other teams front 7 is playing closer to the line. Dallas' interior blitzes & Ratliff beating Rabach were enough to stymie our ground game.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=hail_2_da_skins;737456]My biggest concern is the health of Trent Williams and who is going to substitute for him if he can't go. Do you move Jamaal Brown over to LT and put Heyer at RT? Do you place Heyer at LT and get your QB killed?[/quote]

Jammal Brown reportedly didn't get any snaps at LT in the offseason which is likely why Heyer would be starting there.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

The O-Line has been a problem area for the Redskins for several years now. Last year, the problem became a festering boil. Last year's O-Line was certainly in the bottom third of the league and maybe in the bottom 5. That unit stunk. Deal with it.

So, the Redskins used a high first round pick to get a new OT. Good move. Trent Williams surely looks like a player they can build around.

The rest of the Skins O-Line for 2010 fall into one of two categories:

[INDENT]1. Holdovers from 2009

2. Question marks/retreads[/INDENT]

The problems with the O-Line go back to the Vinny Boombatz days; he did not use draft picks to select guys who might be developed into big time offensive lineman nearly often enough. When Samuels and Jansen were anchoring the line at either end, that covered a multitude of personnel sins, but when both of them began to slip - - age + injuries - - the whole fabric came unraveled.

Ignoring injuries for the moment, the 2010 offensive line is better than the 2009 offensive line. [B]At the same time[/B], the 2010 offensive line is not nearly good enough to call it one of the team strengths.

Absent some kind of miracle off-season - - such as the one that delivered Mark May, Russ Grimm and Joe Jacoby to the Redskins - - it will take a couple of years of drafting smart, developing players and getting lucky with a free agent here or there. That is what is needed and it will take time.

The Redskins have 3 offensive linemen on the Practice Squad - - if I recall correctly. Hopefully, the coaches have selected the right guys to put there and to invest the time and energy to develop them and hopefuly, the players will "get it". It will be a [B]big help [/B]for 2011 - - assuming there is a season in 2011 - - for one of the Practice Squad guys to push out some of the holdovers and retreads that are here now.

Patience is a virtue. This is the time for Skins fans to demonstrate virtuosity...

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

i am already impressed with this line which gives me hope...let the chemistry begin.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;737512]The O-Line has been a problem area for the Redskins for several years now. Last year, the problem became a festering boil. Last year's O-Line was certainly in the bottom third of the league and maybe in the bottom 5. That unit stunk. Deal with it.

So, the Redskins used a high first round pick to get a new OT. Good move. Trent Williams surely looks like a player they can build around.

The rest of the Skins O-Line for 2010 fall into one of two categories:

[INDENT]1. Holdovers from 2009

2. Question marks/retreads[/INDENT]

The problems with the O-Line go back to the Vinny Boombatz days; he did not use draft picks to select guys who might be developed into big time offensive lineman nearly often enough. When Samuels and Jansen were anchoring the line at either end, that covered a multitude of personnel sins, but when both of them began to slip - - age + injuries - - the whole fabric came unraveled.

Ignoring injuries for the moment, the 2010 offensive line is better than the 2009 offensive line. [B]At the same time[/B], the 2010 offensive line is not nearly good enough to call it one of the team strengths.

Absent some kind of miracle off-season - - such as the one that delivered Mark May, Russ Grimm and Joe Jacoby to the Redskins - - it will take a couple of years of drafting smart, developing players and getting lucky with a free agent here or there. That is what is needed and it will take time.

The Redskins have 3 offensive linemen on the Practice Squad - - if I recall correctly. Hopefully, the coaches have selected the right guys to put there and to invest the time and energy to develop them and hopefuly, the players will "get it". It will be a [B]big help [/B]for 2011 - - assuming there is a season in 2011 - - for one of the Practice Squad guys to push out some of the holdovers and retreads that are here now.

Patience is a virtue. This is the time for Skins fans to demonstrate virtuosity...[/quote]

Does that mean the jury is still out and we won't be able to say with any degree of certainty how good these guys are, or will be until we have a season to compare them with the previous lot.?

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I am not worried. We finally have a FO and coaching staff that has us headed in the right direction. It does not matter if it takes a year or two for us to be a consistent playoff team. We need to guard against the Snyderatto special/ quick fixes and mortgaging future picks to win now.
Which why I am not in love with a possible proposed trade for a certain Charger WR.
One thing is for certain, there is still players on this roster (Dockery/Haynesworth etc.) that do not fit the system and will be gone as soon as a replacement is found.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

shit, I could care less if the running game came around if we are throwing for nearly 500 yards every game. We need to worry about our defense holding our leads more than portis getting 1 more ypc.

Although it would be nice to be able to run the ball, run the clock when we have a lead............

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I know OL don't grow on trees but one would think that as well as cutting Johnson to bring in a new RB, they would be bringing in OL in some form or fashion. Instead they are somewhat staying the course. Rabach has been an issue. I think we all or a lot of us said Rabach gets bowled over too much. Heck, Portis had to bail him out throughout the Dallas game.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Longtimefan;737494]Just judging from what folks are saying, we don't have the personell to play on the lines on either side of the ball. O/line can't run block, D/line can't stop the run. What do we do now?[/quote]

Evaluate, game plan, and hope they play hard and win games. It's troubling that things are worse than I imagined. Its ringing true that Dockery just doesnt get it done-thats why Buffalo let him go and sadly the skins are always in need of anyone.

maybe we can use DD in goalline packages.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

This O-Line is good at pass protection, complete shit at run blocking. This "shake up" or experimenting as I like to call it worries me. Oh and Kyle better start f'ing running the god damn ball and stick with it.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mechanix544;737531]shit, I could care less if the running game came around if we are throwing for nearly 500 yards every game. We need to worry about our defense holding our leads more than portis getting 1 more ypc.

Although it would be nice to be able to run the ball, run the clock when we have a lead............[/quote]

Last time I check a 5 yrd pass was just as good as a 5 yrd run. It does help wear down the other team but other then that who cares.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I think this is a bit of concern, but not the end of the world. The team is just going to have to play smarter than they did against the Texans. We have a weak running game, therefore we have to find ways to compensate for that. I think we need to incorporate more screen plays, in addition to our downfield throws that worked out pretty well against the Texans. The team needs to find ways to make the opposing defenses back off from defending the run, so we can have the occasional successful run here and there.

Also, the coaching staff needs to get away from complex running plays. With such a weak run blocking, we can't be having toss sweeps (the LJ -10 yd run) or reverses in critical times of the game. And I think we may need to have a somewhat vanilla running scheme. Teams like the Colts and the Pats are not going to run all over you, and since we seem to be strong in the passing game, we need to use that to set up the run.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=firstdown;737594]Last time I check a 5 yrd pass was just as good as a 5 yrd run. It does help wear down the other team but other then that who cares.[/quote]

you're not going to be able to pass all over every team

you probably want your back getting hit after 5 yards every play than your WR

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I never thought that drafting Trent Williams would undo years of neglect on the O-line. We probably need another draft or two to stabilize the bleeding.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I feel like the running game is the new WR concern, which quickly vanished after last week.

We'll get the running game cranking soon enough.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mattyk;737599]I feel like the running game is the new WR concern, which quickly vanished after last week.

We'll get the running game cranking soon enough.[/quote]

WR is most def on the wish list. I think the difference was McNabb was making everyone look good. Plus cant remember if any drops...maybe Moss had one early?? Galloways weren t really drops, he just couldnt make the play...Sellers caught his and Armstrong bobbled to hang on his his over the middle.

I think we can say both RB and WR are needs, but with a new regime coming in turnover is expected, what is unexpected is the fact the past regime left us with such garbage.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Chico23231;737608]WR is most def on the wish list. [B]I think the difference was McNabb was making everyone look good.[/B] Plus cant remember if any drops...maybe Moss had one early?? Galloways weren t really drops, he just couldnt make the play...Sellers caught his and Armstrong bobbled to hang on his his over the middle.

I think we can say both RB and WR are needs, but with a new regime coming in turnover is expected, what is unexpected is the fact the past regime left us with such garbage.[/quote]

That is what we were all hoping for and a reason why WR was not a big problem for us.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Yeah, Dock is our best linemen minus Trent and maybe Jamaal. To say he doesn't fit the scheme very well bodes ill for him next offseason. Other than that, not much new news to me. Our line is substandard in terms of depth. This overhauling of the team is going to take longer than what most folks want to admit.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

I believe putting Lichensteiger is to help accelerate the transition process as he KNOWS the ZBS better than anyone else on the line.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

Lichensteiger at one gaurd and Doc at the other than put Hicks at RT and Jamal Brown at Left... That is how I would do it...until Williams gets back!!!

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

[quote=Mattyk;737599]I feel like the running game is the new WR concern, which quickly vanished after last week.

We'll get the running game cranking soon enough.[/quote]

Yeah, I expect the team to easily put up 140 yards rushing this week with at least a 4.5 ypc. Remember when Rock Cartwright put up 100 yards against the Rams?
[url=http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2005120411/2005/REG13/redskins@rams/watch]NFL Game Center: Washington Redskins at St. Louis Rams - 2005 Week 13[/url]

I'll be more interested in seeing how they do against the Eagles. The Eagles have a good front but their linebackers are backups for most teams. Sorry for looking past the Rams but it's not like I'm playing in the game.

You guys also might want to keep an eye on DeAngelo Williams. He could be a free agent next offseason. Guy has never had more then 273 carries in a season.

Re: Offensive line shakeup
 

hopefully by next year williams and brown will both be better (not saying they are bad now, just better later), and we will somehow acquire a couple of decent interior linemen...FA or 1st/2nd round pick (god I hope it doesn't come to us using one of those on an interior lineman)