this team sucks
 

i have been a loyal redskin fan my entire life, but this team is run like a lemonade stand. we buy and buy everyear and what do we have to show for it nothing.... so Daniel if you read this, You Must Fire Vinny Cerrato.

again i'm gonna preach that we have to cut the fat. if this was any other business how many people would have lost there jobs by now. this is a productivity world and for the amount of money i'm paying i'm getting nothing in return. its time to step back and re-build. Rebuild within, that means people that we dont go out and just buy players. that idea has been tired for 5 years and it hasnt worked. we must cut the following players, brunnell, barrow, morton, and daniels. i know its ALOT of dead cap space for 2005 but it needs to be done. next is we need players who want to play, players who have a someting to prove, they are young players... that means Draft picks. something were lacking agina this year. i hope we dont win another game. Why you ask? cause mike willaims the top player in this draft can be trade bait, ie san diego chargers 2 #1's. trade samuels, moliona will be more than ready. trade gardener i dont care if its for a 4 or 5th rounder. if someone wants him trade portis(look at denver do they miss him)no. take the salary cap hit w/ that. we NEED to build within.

hey Joe get a REAL GM, someone who knows talent not how much air pressure is need or how much wench needs to be turned. i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unless things change around here WE WILL NEVER WIN.

I see your frustration, but the most logical thing we can do right now is to keep what we have with a couple of exceptions (gardner, Barrow), and have most of the same players coming back to play in the same system next year. It's not going to happen over night and recent history tells us that constant change is no key to victory. (refer to the 2000 season when Snyder took apart the 1999 division championship team.)

Im sorry but I have to dissagree with some aspects of your arguement. It does start from within so I do feel we need a real GM and scouting office. But the cuts I don't think are necesary.

Portis definatly stays he's a star he the only shinning part of this offense. Samuels should stay give the line time to mature together just make sure everyone is healthy. Barrows can go he just came here to collect a pay day he knew his career was over. Brunnell Ramsey both can go start fresh with someone we can build around. the wr got talent they need a proven wr coach to show them the ropes and the team need more discipline whether they like it or not. Marty atleast coached them to an 8-8 season. not much has occured after that.

The problem with that is advocating massive turnover is no way to establish continuity.

The Pittsburgh Steelers were horrible last year. The are much better this year. It isn't entirely because of Roethlisberger. Their offensive line has played together for the past four years. Their WR's have played together for at least three. The person doing his job knows what the person next to him is going to do, because they did it last year, and the year before.

Are there too many underperformers on this team - yes. Some of them should go. Some should get another chance. Some have to stay, because dropping the four players you said we "must cut" would account for over $15 million on the cap. Some have legitimate injuries that have hampered production, or kept them off the field. If you were to trade Samuels, Gardner, and Portis in addition to those cuts, it would account for nearly $25 million in cap space.

Top to bottom, we have a top ten team talent-wise. Let them stay together (for once), in one system (for once), and see what happens.

You say if this were any other business people would have lost their jobs. If you're the most profitable business in a lucrative field, you aren't firing anyone. Like it or not, we're the most valued football franchise at over 1Billion dollars. No one else breaks a billion.

Get rid of Portis? Is he telling Gibbs not to give him the ball? I doubt it, that's not exactly something I could see him saying. I think we should leave the team alone for the most part. Instead of trading Gardner try to trade Coles. You will hopefully be able to get more value for him and I seriously doubt he'll ever be what he was before the turf toe. Not to mention, his contract will be hell in a few years.

Samuels should be kicked out the door if he won't restructure. For a contract like that it may be hard to get a first rounder, but here's to hoping.

Draft for WRs, OLine, and DB depth. Dline is fine atm. We don't need stars up there. It's not part of the system. Honestly, I'm all for moving to a 3-4 since we have enough talent at LB to stick around.

Barrow is a big question mark. Pierce is playing great football and Barrow is a solid player. We can't get anyone to take over the contract, but Pierce hasn't done anything to give that MLB job away. I say we try to shop him, but who knows.

Priority #1: SIGN FRED SMOOT. He is key. Keep our defense in tact for the most part. Offense make a few key adjustments.

We don't need a GM. However, we need an O coordinator on par with Greg Williams as D coordinator. If anyone can get him, we can. That man is Charlie Weiss. We can make him assistant head coach offense or some bullshit to give him the job, pay him like a head-coach, and let the offense actually do something. He's done a lot more with a lot less.

i say we make coles hit the IR now and start his surgery that is needed badly. the more time to heal the better. second we need to sign smoot very soon to make sure there isnt a chance of hitting the FA market. then we need to boot samuels, sorry, it has to be done. countless times he has f'd up this year on plays he needs to use his own common sense. then the draft... round 1: we need a speed rusher from the outside, guy from BC would be perfect. round 2: we need to look for a great left tackle and get him started right away. THERE WILL BE 2 TO 3 LT's THAT ARE VERY GOOD IN THE SEC0ND ROUND. round 3: we need a speedster WR and should be able to find one in the third,,, hell, coles was drafted in the third. then from round 4 on, we need to fill in holes from departed roll players and make the rooks learn from well known guys we have all over the field.

The only thing we need is lowered expectations. I know we say we have top 10 talent, but what we have is a top ten payroll, we are currently the 3rd worst team in the league. But I understand what you're saying, because no way our roster is the third worst in the league, but like Parcells said "you are what you are. if your record says you're 3-8, you're 3-8."

Re-sign Smoot, cut Samuels, keep Barrow (if he can come back otherwise cut him too), and by no means can we even contemplate trading Clinton Portis. Juggernaut, I think a fair punishment for you is to put a red bar of soap in your mouth and stand in the corner for bringing that up. But seriously, Portis is 23 and only going to get better. It's frustrating that he's not having the success he had in Denver, but no system I've ever seen made a move or broke a tackle or carried a ball so it must be Portis.

Easy, now. Continuity is what we've lacked over the last 5 years. I hate losing, too. I go to a sportsbar every weekend where the opposing giant, cowboy, and iggle fans all know "hail to the redskins" and sing it at us when things go badly. Man, do I want to get my revenge on these morons. But the only way there is with patience and hard work. And we're pretty well tied down in terms of money anyway.

Keep getting better each week, find what works with the players we've got, and sit the players who don't give their all. Sometimes, chemistry takes time.

i understand all the frustration i feel it too
but we will get back to the top
we need to get rid of gardner
coles is a playmaker he needs to get the toe fixed but in all fairness
the only time he gets the ball with some place to move is on the screens
i too would get rid of barrow, pierce is playing reallly solid
and re singing smoot is a must and tradeing portis is not an option
jansen will be back next year and hopefully we can have some continuity on the o line
all of the good o lines in the league have been playing together for awhile and in the same system.give it some time 1 more year wont kill weve been waiting 13 allready

If Samuels renegociates his contract to be more team friendly keep him he is still a V.Good LT. Remember this is a new blocking scheme for him too and he is starting next to the most inexperienced guy on the line. The only reason he didn't renegociate last year is because the team didn't really push it and he felt he was in a poor bargaining position having a down year and a year removed from the probowl.

see your wrong, name me a running back that has left denver in the past 10 years that has gone to have similar #'s. there are none.... dont get me wrong portis is a good back top 5 but he's 2 damn small for our system. your gonna tell me that stephen jackson would've done less for us this year. cant say that but he would have cost 10x's less.

[color=red]they are'nt that bad,with a few more breaks,and a lot less officiating blunders,under& over rthrows and all in all bad luck,they could easily be at 500 now.[/color]

the skins don't need an overhaul, they just need time. take a look at the teams doing really well this year ( eagles, steelers, etc. ) they have had basically the same core group of guys ( players and coaches ) for a couple of years.

Just curious but was Emmit Smith a system back? I tend to belive that he was. I am not trying to say that Protis is Emmit or anything, just seeing what people think.

Hard to say 8588. Besides Arizona you never saw him in another pro system in his prime. I'm positive if he didn't have that line, fullback, and QB/Receiver threat that he wouldn't be today's all-time leading rusher.

[QUOTE=Daseal]Hard to say 8588. Besides Arizona you never saw him in another pro system in his prime. I'm positive if he didn't have that line, fullback, and QB/Receiver threat that he wouldn't be today's all-time leading rusher.[/QUOTE]

Thats why I think that he was a system back, I mean in his prime put him in to another system and would he still be that dangerous??

yea i think he was a system back but a good one never the less. barry sanders on the other hand would have been successfull anywere. just my thoughts.

[QUOTE=juggernaunt]we must cut the following players, brunnell, barrow, morton, and daniels. i know its ALOT of dead cap space for 2005 but it needs to be done. next is we need players who want to play, players who have a someting to prove, they are young players... that means Draft picks. something were lacking agina this year. i hope we dont win another game. Why you ask? cause mike willaims the top player in this draft can be trade bait, ie san diego chargers 2 #1's. trade samuels, moliona will be more than ready. trade gardener i dont care if its for a 4 or 5th rounder. if someone wants him trade portis(look at denver do they miss him)no. take the salary cap hit w/ that. we NEED to build within.[/QUOTE]

Trading two #1's (one of which will probably be around #12 and the other somewhere around #20) for our #3-6 would be a very good idea if San Diego would bite.

However, I don't see how you can say Molinaro would be ready to fill in for Samuels. What have you seen that I haven't? He hasn't seen the field all that much this year.
It would be pretty risky to put an unproven, 2nd year, former-7th rounder in at starting LT.

Get rid or Portis? Okay, now that's just crazy. First, we're going to take a cap hit of $10 million. Second, he's been running behind an offense that can't throw the ball more than 15 yards and so he's got 10 defensive players in his junk before the ball is snapped. Third, this is Clinton Portis; I think he's proven his mettle.

Trade Gardner for a 4th or 5th rounder? First, he doesn't have a high cap figure. Second, he is worth more than a 4th or 5th rounder. Third, most 4th or 5th rounders are lucky to be in the league for more than 4 years. Fourth, I like finding good picks in the lower rounds, but it's not that easy. Fifth, it's not Gardner's just isn't working in an otherwise brilliant offense.

Our current roster, coaches, and game plans aren't working, but you should figure out what is wrong before you go and make a bunch of hasty decisions. Cutting all those guys you mentioned would pretty much make this an expansion team next year (a bunch of guys working together for the first time). I understand the frustration, but come on, we need consistency not panicky moves that shake up the roster, coaching staff, and the entire organization.

agreed we are shit... but it will only take time... a few minor fixes but we cant yet again overhaul the team unless you're trying to suck for 3 more seasons. we'll be good again not next year, but the next after that with some continuity

I agree with all comments about not overhauling the entire team. Here are a few ideas for improving the team:

1. Unless Samuels accepts a major pay cut, trade him for a decent veteran qb. We don't need someone with an incredible arm or scrambling ability. Just a smart player with good accuracy and leadership skills. If Gibbs could turn Mark Rypien into a Super Bowl MVP and a Pro Bowler, he can certainly do it with a decent quarterback.

2. Use Gardner as part of the Samuels trade; we already have Thrash, McCants, and Jacobs. We have more than enough depth at that position, especially for a Gibbs offense.

3. Draft an offensive lineman or receiver in the first round (it depends on which position has the most talented player available). Use the second round to pick up the next position. Take a pash rushing de in the third round, someone we can send in on third and long. Use the final rounds to add depth at necessary positions.

[QUOTE=juggernaunt]i have been a loyal redskin fan my entire life, but this team is run like a lemonade stand. we buy and buy everyear and what do we have to show for it nothing.... so Daniel if you read this, You Must Fire Vinny Cerrato.

again i'm gonna preach that we have to cut the fat. if this was any other business how many people would have lost there jobs by now. this is a productivity world and for the amount of money i'm paying i'm getting nothing in return. its time to step back and re-build. Rebuild within, that means people that we dont go out and just buy players. that idea has been tired for 5 years and it hasnt worked. we must cut the following players, brunnell, barrow, morton, and daniels. i know its ALOT of dead cap space for 2005 but it needs to be done. next is we need players who want to play, players who have a someting to prove, they are young players... that means Draft picks. something were lacking agina this year. i hope we dont win another game. Why you ask? cause mike willaims the top player in this draft can be trade bait, ie san diego chargers 2 #1's. trade samuels, moliona will be more than ready. trade gardener i dont care if its for a 4 or 5th rounder. if someone wants him trade portis(look at denver do they miss him)no. take the salary cap hit w/ that. we NEED to build within.

hey Joe get a REAL GM, someone who knows talent not how much air pressure is need or how much wench needs to be turned. i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but unless things change around here WE WILL NEVER WIN.[/QUOTE]


Well I agree with the fire Vinny part at least...

I dont know about who to drop. Hopefully we can get Samuels to rework again if not trade or waive him. Need a GM and need to do some seriors homework even if we have to hire Mel Kiper for the draft. With our first pick we should trade it for more picks like we did the year we got Ramsey. We really dont have the cap space to pay the high first round picks do we? This draft will be important this year due to probably not being able to sign the big name free agents like in the past.

I really dont see Samuels restructuring his contract, but i was thinking about this tonight: If you look at the great O-lines in the league (Chiefs, Steelers, Ravens), they have been together for a longgg time. With all the problems we have with the O-line, which is the key to our team, can we realistically expect to improve a whole lot next season with a whole new O-line? I say we either draft a wr, and sign the best FA center available, so we have contiunity in Samuels Dockery and Randy Thomas and Jon Jansen on the 2 G's and 2t's, and throw in a top FA center to the mix and maybe we can have a good line?

bigstar - if we can get him to restructure Im completely with you, but that 11M salary will kill us!

[QUOTE=jrocx69]i say we make coles hit the IR now and start his surgery that is needed badly. the more time to heal the better. [/QUOTE] And you are a doctor that has seen the MRI? Let him start seeing the proffesionals to gain a opion on his foot, but please do not insult us by making a diagnosis when you do not have any medical basis for it.

[QUOTE=CRT3]And you are a doctor that has seen the MRI? Let him start seeing the proffesionals to gain a opion on his foot, but please do not insult us by making a diagnosis when you do not have any medical basis for it.[/QUOTE]
Apparently we have a lot of doctors in the house because I've seen plenty of people say he needs surgery.

He's supposed to see some specialists after the season and go from there. I think the problem is it's not some routine injury that he can go under the knife for, rehab and be back to 100% in 4-6 months. If it was that easy he would have done it last offseason.

[QUOTE=heybigstar]I really dont see Samuels restructuring his contract, but i was thinking about this tonight: If you look at the great O-lines in the league (Chiefs, Steelers, Ravens), they have been together for a longgg time. With all the problems we have with the O-line, which is the key to our team, can we realistically expect to improve a whole lot next season with a whole new O-line? I say we either draft a wr, and sign the best FA center available, so we have contiunity in Samuels Dockery and Randy Thomas and Jon Jansen on the 2 G's and 2t's, and throw in a top FA center to the mix and maybe we can have a good line?[/QUOTE]


I completely agree. We have enough talent under contract to build a good line if we just give it time for once. Since Snyder purchased the Redskins we have never given anything enough time to see if it would really work. Football is the ultimate team game. you can't build a Super Bowl team in one offseason. I would think we should know that by now...

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]Apparently we have a lot of doctors in the house because I've seen plenty of people say he needs surgery.

He's supposed to see some specialists after the season and go from there. I think the problem is it's not some routine injury that he can go under the knife for, rehab and be back to 100% in 4-6 months. If it was that easy he would have done it last offseason.[/QUOTE]
I may be wrong, but I think they reccommended surgery last year for him, but he opted to try to rest it and see if that improved it. He didn't want to miss the additional mini-camps with the new staff.

[QUOTE=juggernaunt]i have been a loyal redskin fan my entire life, but this team is run like a lemonade stand. we buy and buy everyear and what do we have to show for it nothing.... .[/QUOTE]

If you don't like the lemonade find another lemonade stand. I'm here for the long haul.

[QUOTE=Paintrain]I may be wrong, but I think they reccommended surgery last year for him, but he opted to try to rest it and see if that improved it. He didn't want to miss the additional mini-camps with the new staff.[/QUOTE]This is from an article in the Times this past summer

[url="http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20040803-121326-8518r.htm"]http://www.washtimes.com/sports/20040803-121326-8518r.htm[/url]

[quote]That said, it was another reminder that Coles' injury could be a lingering issue for the entire season. He chose not to have surgery during the offseason because doctors told him there was a chance it could end his career.[/quote]

im not sure why people want to cut Portis. Our offense has sucked but who would you rather have? He is the third leading rusher in the NFC, and thats with those two poor performances in a row.

We do cut some people, and we have been dumping a lot of our big name busts over teh last few years. The last two free agency periods I think we have done a good job of getting young, up and coming players. With the exception of Brunell. Maybe you could include Barrorw, but the guy is a great player that HAD never had an injury up until this year.

Like Pittsburgh we could find a Bettis like back and bring him in on short downs or goal line downs and have Portis as the main back. Of course Betts would be getting the raw end of the deal.

joe gibbs is the most predictable play called in the league right now. My HS team was harder to game plan then the skins.

[QUOTE=juggernaunt]see your wrong, name me a running back that has left denver in the past 10 years that has gone to have similar #'s. there are none.... dont get me wrong portis is a good back top 5 but he's 2 damn small for our system. your gonna tell me that stephen jackson would've done less for us this year. cant say that but he would have cost 10x's less.[/QUOTE]

Want to know why I can't name a running back that has left Denver and had success? Because they keep those guys there. Terrell Davis was the most successful, he retired a Bronco due to injury. Gary Anderson is still there, he ran for 1400 yds. Orlandis Gary is the only other guy to have left, he ran for 1000 yds but then tore his ACL. Droughons is having success in the system now, but I remember him at Oregon as being a solid back.

I don't know that I agree with your assessment that Portis is 2 small. I've heard that from a lot of my friends, that Portis is too small for the NFC East as if somehow there is a different brand of football that is played in the NFC East than the AFC West. I don't buy that at all, because even though the defenses may not be as good in the AFC West the backs are way above par in the AFC West so the poor defensive rankings (if they even exist) could be a result of all the stud RBs in the division. Last year they boasted 3 of the top 5 backs in football with Holmes, Tomlinson and Portis.

Now I do think the system has something to do with it, and Shanahan has a dynamite system in Denver, but a lot of it is on the individual. Football is football, and Portis is a Pro Bowl back and a damn fine football player and extremely young at that. Portis has run for 4000 yds in 3 yrs, and while he's not having the success in DC that he had in Denver it's still way early to start talking about trading him. But I'm guessing most of that is just you being frustrated, and we all are.

The main problem I have with those who say Portis is too small is that by saying that they are essentially saying that they know what "Gibbs' system" needs more than Gibbs himself. I'd think the guy who actually runs the system would know what kind of pieces he needs to plug into his offense. Not to mention that the running backs coach is Ernest Byner, who ran in this system so I'd think he also knows what it takes. Portis is a home run hitter, but he's not getting many pitches to hit these days. The offensive line is probably where most of our problems lie, there aren't many holes and they can't seem to protect Ramsey.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]joe gibbs is the most predictable play called in the league right now. My HS team was harder to game plan then the skins.[/QUOTE]
I dont think that playcalling is all that important, I mean think about it when the Chiefs have Holmes every team knew what they were going to do, RUN Holmes. The Ravens, when Lewis is healthy every team knows they have to stop Lewis. The Falcons, stop Vick.

Teams are really dangerous when they are like the Colts, Broncos, Packers and so on. With these team if you shut down the run they can still pass on you and if you stop the pass they will run on you.

Look at the Eagles one lose this year, they could not run on the steelers. And the steelers probably knew that, so the steelers figured if they could contain and put pressure on McNabb then they would win by stoping the eagles passing attack.

[QUOTE=SKINSnCANES]im not sure why people want to cut Portis. Our offense has sucked but who would you rather have? He is the third leading rusher in the NFC, and thats with those two poor performances in a row.
[/QUOTE]
I agree, think about it our feature back last year was Trung Canidate!!! And being that we let Davis go, who would you want in our backfield? I think that Portis is haveing an excellent year given the situation that he is in. No passing game and constantly running against 8 and sometimes 9 in the box!! Yet he is ranked 3rd!! in the NFC which has backs like A. Green, T. Barber, S. Alexander, D. McAllister. That is pretty good if you ask me, but that is just my opinion.

Good point 8588! If we could ever get our passing game opened up, it would force those guys to drop back in coverage and would open up more for Portis.

[QUOTE=Redskins8588]I dont think that playcalling is all that important, I mean think about it when the Chiefs have Holmes every team knew what they were going to do, RUN Holmes. The Ravens, when Lewis is healthy every team knows they have to stop Lewis. The Falcons, stop Vick.

Teams are really dangerous when they are like the Colts, Broncos, Packers and so on. With these team if you shut down the run they can still pass on you and if you stop the pass they will run on you.

Look at the Eagles one lose this year, they could not run on the steelers. And the steelers probably knew that, so the steelers figured if they could contain and put pressure on McNabb then they would win by stoping the eagles passing attack.[/QUOTE]


I dont think I agree with that. Its not as obvious as you might think when Holmes gets the ball. The Chiefs do a great job, as do the ravens, of using the fact that teams think they are going to do something then flip it to the TE, which they both have a great one. We dotn setup anything. We call exactly what you think we are going to call. Ill be watching a Skins game, we'll get the ball first and goal. I KNOW we are going to lineup with no receviers on first and second down and hand the ball off twice. We dotn try anythign fancy, we dont even have a wideout to have some sort of an option out there. Then after two failed attemps I know we are going to try and throw it to a TE, but we still might only have one receiver out. The problem with our passing game is that we never gave brunell more than two options to throw at. If both of them were covered whats he supposed to do. They usually dont even let portis pop out and dump it off for a screen pass to keep the D honest.

You may be right but I still think that it comes down to execution on the field.

Someone suggested we put Coles on IR and make him get the surgery that may or may not fix his foot. Here's my question - and it has nothing whatever to do with the diagnosis:

How do you force someone to have surgery? Do you threaten to cut him? What do you do if he says, "So cut me. I'll get the surgery after you cut me and then get another fat signing bonus somewhere else. Take you threats and stick them up your butt."

Do you kidnap him and drug him and smuggle him into the OR with your surgeons waiting there to take over?


Someone else said that we should trade Samuels for a veteran back-up QB. No need to trade him for anything. Veteran back-up QBs are ALWAYS available at no price other than a minimum contract in the summertime. I cannot think of a team that would trade a veteran back-up QB for an offensive tackle who is going to cost about $10M in salary next year and who will be a free agent at the end of next year. Unless of course that veteran back-up is Jeff George from the Bears...