Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

In 2008, Jim Zorn and the Redskins were riding sky high as they went into Pittsburgh. The offense was performing well and we were winning close games. Then, we faced a real quality opponent who figured out the offense and stonewalled us. In short, they got film on the coach and his tendencies.

I believe that the same thing may happen to Haslett. He's going to get figured out and our performances will be like Denver's circa 2008. We're going to be coughing up 21 points at the very least from here on out.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

That is a scary, but salient point.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

Haslett has been a DC in this league a long time. I don't see what the Eagles did to indicate their performance was more about "figuring out" the scheme than it was from some super individual efforts.

Vick had an incredible night and just threw some pinpoint passes that were practically indefensible. And we know what he can do with his legs. That's what it boils down to for me.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=Mattyk;759955]Haslett has been a DC in this league a long time. I don't see what the Eagles did to indicate their performance was more about "figuring out" the scheme than it was from some super individual efforts.

Vick had an incredible night and just threw some pinpoint passes that were practically indefensible. And we know what he can do with his legs. That's what it boils down to for me.[/quote]

Yes, and what did he do in that long time? How about running the Pittsburgh defense, which was a top unit under Lebeau then, into land of the mediocre.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

I agree that teams have figured out our D, figured out that there are usually big gaps between the cb & safeties, and that our pass rush is nothing to worry about.

I don't think it's much of an analogy to compare it to Zorn in 08, that team had half a season of success. This defense was getting gashed in the second game of the year & it's continued. I know that they held some teams scoring down, so they deserve credit for that, but the only team that was surprised by them was dallas in week 1.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

Interesting to note: Lebeau's D was ranked 11th in 1996, Haslett took over and they finished 7th in 1997.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

i havent noticed us using the same D schemes and formulas game in and game out.

if anything, ive noticed that week to week we adjust our D scheme to the opponent. sometimes the adjustments are huge.

i think Haslett just got burnt running soft zone with the corners in an attempt to keep the corners watching and in position to contain the outside if vick scrambled that way. (i read this else where and while i havent seen any actual proof to this notion it makes sense to me)

this next game against tenn, who knows what kind of D we roll out. i like it.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=SirClintonPortis;759947]In 2008, Jim Zorn and the Redskins were riding sky high as they went into Pittsburgh. The offense was performing well and we were winning close games. Then, we faced a real quality opponent who figured out the offense and stonewalled us. In short, they got film on the coach and his tendencies.

I believe that the same thing may happen to Haslett. He's going to get figured out and our performances will be like Denver's circa 2008. We're going to be coughing up 21 points at the very least from here on out.[/quote]

Our D is pretty much rated last what is there to figure out?

Boy if teams figure out our O then we are really in trouble.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

One major point that I completely disagree with in this thread is to say the NFL has figured out our defense would some how imply our defense under Haslett was actually good at some point and playing well. It has not. Our performance on the field as it relates to playing sound defensive football with good technique and playing well together as unit has not happened folks.
We have been last or next to last statistically all year. ALL Season our defense has done the tell tale things that bad defense do..like give up close to or over 5 yards a carry and giving up massive yards overall. Being weak against the run. Mental mistakes and breakdowns have been a problem. I am not saying we are terrible. But we do not play well consistently for any long periods of time. We are very inconsistent.
The only thing good we can point to is we have created or generated more turnovers than years prior.
Haslett is on the hot seat. Plain and simple. It is his job to lose and he is losing it.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=Mattyk;759986]Interesting to note: Lebeau's D was ranked 11th in 1996, Haslett took over and they finished 7th in 1997.[/quote]

and they lost Rod Woodson, Deon Figures, and Chad Brown to free agency after 1996

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

I think Haslett probably made a name for himself by the players he had on other teams, not for any special talent he has. I've seen the way he lines up his defenses and it's nothing like Rickie Petitbon did with less talent. You could see the impact that Petitbon had when the 'Skins always made defensive corrections at halftime that won games for them. All I see Haslett doing is standing pat with a defensive scheme that is giving up tons of yards. I've never seen a worse Redskins defense.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

:soapbox:[quote=firstdown;759998]Our D is pretty much rated last what is there to figure out?


Boy if teams figure out our O then we are really in trouble.[/quote]
They.............Haven't figured out our O???
OMG........

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=JLee9718;760005]I think Haslett probably made a name for himself by the players he had on other teams, not for any special talent he has. I've seen the way he lines up his defenses and it's nothing like Rickie Petitbon did with less talent. You could see [B]the impact that Petitbon had when the 'Skins always made defensive corrections at halftime that won games for them. All I see Haslett doing is standing pat with a defensive scheme that is giving up tons of yards.[/B] I've never seen a worse Redskins defense.[/quote]

That is exactly my issue with Haslett. It seems like we are always reacting and trying to put out fires as opposed dictating to the offense.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=firstdown;759998]Our D is pretty much rated last what is there to figure out?

Boy if teams figure out our O then we are really in trouble.[/quote]

:laughing2

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

:soapbox:[quote=firstdown;759998]Our D is pretty much rated last what is there to figure out?


Boy if teams figure out our O then we are really in trouble.[/quote]
They.............Haven't figured out our O???
OMG........

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

I will say this: our D is last in the league, even though we have enough talent to avoid that distinction. We have a number of guys that would start on virtually any D in the league in Haynesworth (indeed, the Redskins may be the only team that wouldn't start him), Orakpo, Landry, and Fletcher. We also have a number of guys that could start for a number of teams, even if they're not stars, such as Rogers, Carter, McIntosh, Alexander, and Hall. While that leaves a number of folks (and most of our D line) in the "not very good" category, having 8 of 11 guys of reasonable quality -- even by NFL standards -- should not translate to a last-ranked D.

Bottom line: our coaching is clearly, clearly not helping -- whether it's the scheme, coaching up fundamentals, "cardiovascular endurance" (think AH's 3 minute nap in the 4th quarter v. the Eagles) or anything else is up to reasonable debate. That this unit is woefully underperforming is not.

I will only add that the fact our offense has been underperforming (last in NFL on 3rd down conversions, no consistent rushing game (or RB), no consistency in the receiving game (Cooley's hands are only marginally better than Carlos' at this point) does not help, of course. And the D's ability to create turnovers has kept us in and outright won some games. But giving up 415 yards/game will not get it done in this league. Ever.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=calia;760043]I will say this: our D is last in the league, even though we have enough talent to avoid that distinction. We have a number of guys that would start on virtually any D in the league in Haynesworth (indeed, the Redskins may be the only team that wouldn't start him), Orakpo, Landry, and Fletcher. We also have a number of guys that could start for a number of teams, even if they're not stars, such as Rogers, Carter, McIntosh, Alexander, and Hall. While that leaves a number of folks (and most of our D line) in the "not very good" category, having 8 of 11 guys of reasonable quality -- even by NFL standards -- should not translate to a last-ranked D.

Bottom line: our coaching is clearly, clearly not helping -- whether it's the scheme, coaching up fundamentals, "cardiovascular endurance" (think AH's 3 minute nap in the 4th quarter v. the Eagles) or anything else is up to reasonable debate. That this unit is woefully underperforming is not.

I will only add that the fact our offense has been underperforming (last in NFL on 3rd down conversions, no consistent rushing game (or RB), no consistency in the receiving game (Cooley's hands are only marginally better than Carlos' at this point) does not help, of course. And the D's ability to create turnovers has kept us in and outright won some games. But giving up 415 yards/game will not get it done in this league. Ever.[/quote]

My point on this is it usually all starts up front. When you dont have the guys up front, everyone else suffers. Now, some schemes, or plays he runs may be questionable. But honestly, the guy is doing what he can with what he has to work with. He literally has zero 3-4 lineman upfront. ZERO! And in my opinion, two LB's that fit. Fletcher and Orakpo. Other two are playing out of position.
with that said, i believe that is why he preached creating turnovers so much during camp. He knew we may struggle with giving up yards and preached stripping, allows people to maybe take a little more of risk in jumping routes.

Regarding Haynesworth, We are the only team in the NFL that knows how to screw that damn thing up. It is pathetic that we signed a guy that was the most dominant Dlineman in the game, and he can't get on the damn field. We absolutely are playing this hand the wrong way. The guy needs to be on the field as much as humanly possible. Put him on the ends, the middle, stand him up..what ever. His ass would be on the field, somewhere, creating problems. But Shanny is so damn egotistical and can't swallow some pride and let the dude play. Our Defense is dead freaking last in the NFL, what do you have to lose by letting the guy play all over the dline and create havoc!??!?! seems pretty damn stupid to me.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

^^ Any thoughts on the nap he took on the field while Vick scrambled around forever?

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=#56fanatic;760129]My point on this is it usually all starts up front. When you dont have the guys up front, everyone else suffers. Now, some schemes, or plays he runs may be questionable. But honestly, the guy is doing what he can with what he has to work with. He literally has zero 3-4 lineman upfront. ZERO! And in my opinion, two LB's that fit. Fletcher and Orakpo. Other two are playing out of position.
[/quote]

But that's just the problem; the 3-4 isn't working, yet he has the personnel for a dominant 4-3. If all you've got is potatoes and carrots, quit trying to force hamburgers down people's throats and start making some stew!

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=Mattyk;760136]^^ Any thoughts on the nap he took on the field while Vick scrambled around forever?[/quote]

LOL - nope...
that speaks for itself. I just think him being on the field more, and moving him around the line would give him and the defense more oppotunities to make more plays. It is a fact that when he was consistanty on the field, he makes the other guys better. Proven his years in tennessee guys were having better years in terms of sacks and negative plays. As well as here, when he played consistantly. WHEN being the key word. But happy players are better players. that has been proven throughout the NFL. He is our most dominant player on the front line. Like i said, what does this defense have to lose by playing him more? in my eyes nothing, it couldn't get any worse.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=Mattyk;760136]^^ Any thoughts on the nap he took on the field while Vick scrambled around forever?[/quote]

I hate to defend that kind of play, but man, down 30 points in the fourth quarter, and AH gets knocked on the ground in the middle of the field and watches Vick start sprinting to the sideline... it's not too hard to empathize with a guy not getting back up.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=Coff;760140]But that's just the problem; the 3-4 isn't working, yet he has the personnel for a dominant 4-3. If all you've got is potatoes and carrots, quick trying to force hamburgers down people's throats and start making some stew![/quote]

I honestly dont think that is Hasletts call. Shanny wants this and he gets what he wants. Hell Haslett had to beg Shanny to let him play AH certain ways. His ego will not let the team switch back to the 4-3 fronts because one he will have to play AH more frequently and he is bound and determined to play with out him. Plus it would admit he made a bad decision on switching this year, which he isn't going to admit making any mistakes. EGO is just that big.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=SmootSmack;760001]and they lost Rod Woodson, Deon Figures, and Chad Brown to free agency after 1996[/quote]

Who cares what he did back then? So far I don't think I've seen this guy make an in game adjustment yet.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=Coff;760146]I hate to defend that kind of play, but man, down 30 points in the fourth quarter, and AH gets knocked on the ground in the middle of the field and watches Vick start sprinting to the sideline... it's not too hard to empathize with a guy not getting back up.[/quote]

On the 50yd. touchdown run by Jerome Harrison that made the score 28-0, I saw multiple payers laying down. Our old standard whipping boy just happened to stand out. My little league team tackles better than # 23. Oh! that's right I forgot, he wasn't brought here to tackle, just to get INT's. Great job.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=#56fanatic;760151]I honestly dont think that is Hasletts call. Shanny wants this and he gets what he wants. Hell Haslett had to beg Shanny to let him play AH certain ways. His ego will not let the team switch back to the 4-3 fronts because one he will have to play AH more frequently and he is bound and determined to play with out him. Plus it would admit he made a bad decision on switching this year, which he isn't going to admit making any mistakes. EGO is just that big.[/quote]

From one of J. Reid's insider posts, he said something to the same effect, that Haslett had to convince Shanny that AH should play in the nickel. Given the poor state of this D, particularly the d-line, I would love to see AH start at RE & move around per the down situation.

I agree that it's Shanahan sticking to his guns, he got in the standoff w/AH & won't give in. I understand why, he's in the process of changing the team culture. I think the same rationale explains why Galloway is playing & D. thomas got cut.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=freddyg12;760226]From one of J. Reid's insider posts, he said something to the same effect, that Haslett had to convince Shanny that AH should play in the nickel. Given the poor state of this D, particularly the d-line, I would love to see AH start at RE & move around per the down situation.

I agree that it's Shanahan sticking to his guns, he got in the standoff w/AH & won't give in. I understand why, he's in the process of changing the team culture. I think the same rationale explains why Galloway is playing & D. thomas got cut.[/quote]

Just put Albert in the game and let him play any position he want's on the D/L.

In order for Shanahan to change the culture, he first has to know and understand a little history and that may take a while. Right now he has no idea.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=freddyg12;760226]From one of J. Reid's insider posts, he said something to the same effect, that Haslett had to convince Shanny that AH should play in the nickel. Given the poor state of this D, particularly the d-line, I would love to see AH start at RE & move around per the down situation.

I agree that it's Shanahan sticking to his guns, he got in the standoff w/AH & won't give in. I understand why, he's in the process of changing the team culture. I think the same rationale explains why Galloway is playing & D. thomas got cut.[/quote]

Changing the culture is one of the most bullshit excuses I've ever heard. We jettisoned a good deal of old vets and could have jettisoned Haynesworth too, but Shanahan wanted to keep him on board as a pet project to turn him into a nose tackle. However, the thing is that defense has never been his specialty, and he changed things waaay too much.

As for everyone besides Portis(and he's been a good soldier this year), who on the current roster was suffering from the evil "culture"? Lorenzo? Moss? Fletch? Hall(who felt loved here)?

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=firstdown;759998]Our D is pretty much rated last what is there to figure out?

Boy if teams figure out our O then we are really in trouble.[/quote]

Whats to figure out? our OL cant hold a rush of 4-5 . You can double Moss and shutdown our WR's, our RB's are too bruised/battered and if we fall behind early/often we will abandon the run.

Probably the smartest thing any team can do is contain Banks, keep pressure on McNabb and take away his only 2 targets (moss/cooley). Eventually, the skins will have to take 2-3 yard routes or dumpoffs and 3 and out it b/c we cant do squat on 3rd downs.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

Someone was mentioning all the Skins' defenders who could "start for virtually any D in the league" and then mentioned:

[B]Landry:[/B] You think he starts in Pittsburgh over Polamalu? I don't. How about in Baltimore over Ed Reed? Not this week... Bottom line here is that Landry is better than average but his role as an "impact player" usually is to give up a long TD to the opposition.

[B]Orakpo:[/B] Agree here. No team in the league has two OLBs better than Orakpo.


[B]Fletcher:[/B] Can he start for either Baltimore or Pittsburgh? No. Would he start over Bradley in Philly? Perhaps but not certainly. Can he start in Chicago or Minnesota? I doubt it.


The Skins' defense has some good players - - but they are not good enough to overcome the lack of skill in so many other players on that unit.


BTW, listing McIntosh here as one of the stalwarts on the defense could set you up for disappointment later on - - because his deal is up this year and I don't know that the Skins even want him back.

Re: Something to consider about the defenses performance
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;760242]Someone was mentioning all the Skins' defenders who could "start for virtually any D in the league" and then mentioned:

[B]Landry:[/B] You think he starts in Pittsburgh over Polamalu? I don't. How about in Baltimore over Ed Reed? Not this week... Bottom line here is that Landry is better than average but his role as an "impact player" usually is to give up a long TD to the opposition.

[B]Orakpo:[/B] Agree here. No team in the league has two OLBs better than Orakpo.


[B]Fletcher:[/B] Can he start for either Baltimore or Pittsburgh? No. Would he start over Bradley in Philly? Perhaps but not certainly. Can he start in Chicago or Minnesota? I doubt it.


The Skins' defense has some good players - - but they are not good enough to overcome the lack of skill in so many other players on that unit.


BTW, listing McIntosh here as one of the stalwarts on the defense could set you up for disappointment later on - - because his deal is up this year and I don't know that the Skins even want him back.[/quote]

I said "virtually" any team in the league, and I stand by that. There are a few teams where these folks wouldn't start (and I generally agree with your identification of such teams, with the possible exception of the LBs in Minnesota). But my overall point is that there is SURELY enough talent on this D to avoid being last in the league. They're at least a middle-of-the-pack squad (and perhaps better; it isn't as though we lost key players last off-season).