Rock out with your Lockout
 

The National Football League Players Association (NFLPA) is declaring tomorrow (Tuesday January 18th, 2011) as "Let Us Play Day" to heighten awareness that if a new Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) is not in place by the spring, the owners are planning to lock-out the players, putting the 2011 NFL season in jeopardy.



If you're not familiar with the dynamics of the current lockout situation, there is a good read up [URL="http://www.canalstreetchronicles.com/2011/1/17/1934363/rock-out-with-your-lockout-nfl-work-stoppage-for-dummies"]HERE[/URL].

If you'd like to support the players, [URL="http://www.nfllockout.com/"]Sign the petition[/URL]!

Re: Rock out with your Lockout
 

Where can we vote for owners?

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Where can we let both parties know that we don't support either side over the other, and they need all need to get their collective b**** a**es to the table and work out a deal.

Seriously, stupid idiots trying to play fan support against each other. I have no interest in who gets more money, I just want to watch football.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;778486]Where can we let both parties know that we don't support either side over the other, and they need all need to get their collective b**** a**es to the table and work out a deal.

Seriously, stupid idiots trying to play fan support against each other. I have no interest in who gets more money, I just want to watch football.[/quote]

Brilliant.

I'd also like to vote for a cap-less NFL and Sunday Ticket being offered by all cable providers. Where can I sign that petition?

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I agree with everything said by CRedskinsRule. **** them all.

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The NBA and the NFL might have a lock out next fall. If both have a lock out at the same time, the US economy could take a hit.
All of the people out of work and the revenue the local economies count on from these games could send us into another recession. Playing with fire.
I do not claim to know all of the details on any of the sides, but I am very against expanding the NFL schedule. That is stupid. Why does the NFL insist on messing with a good thing? Greed!

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Owners and players make way more money than they should now as it is. Why don't we move the NFL in the direction of the financial markets and allow us to get kick backs, "dividends", since we are the force that lines their pockets with green in the first place? That is the petition I want to sign. Until the day we have meaningful jobs like teachers, police officers and firemen get paid the same as these overpaid athletes, I will not be happy. I work just as hard as these guys who get to have fun for a minuscule percentage of their salary. Wait, am I sounding a tad bit bitter? Oops....

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The owners are the ones who have opted out of the current CBA agreement. They voted to opt out 2 years early.

I'm siding with the players because I feel that the owners have dug themselves into their own hole. The owners want to keep the same percentage of sharing, but decrease what qualifies as sharable revenue with the players. The players take the biggest health risk by playing the game, and should be compensated fairly... It's up to everyone to figure out what, "fairly" is.

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I'm with CRedskinsRule. I don't side with one side or the other, I just want to see football in the fall. Both sides are greedy, and they both need to get over it.

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Selfishly, as a fan I want both sides to just forget about themselves and think of the fans and avoid a lockout.

But, when I step back...I support the players

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Millionaires versus Billionaires, it's tough for me to feel empathy for anyone in this argument. Meanwhile the guy down the street has a moving van backed to his front door, with a couple of deputies watching, in Anytown America.

[QUOTE=RobH4413;778493]The owners are the ones who have opted out of the current CBA agreement. They voted to opt out 2 years early.

I'm siding with the players because I feel that the owners have dug themselves into their own hole. The owners want to keep the same percentage of sharing, but decrease what qualifies as sharable revenue with the players. The players take the biggest health risk by playing the game, and should be compensated fairly... It's up to everyone to figure out what, "fairly" is.[/QUOTE]
Give me a break please. Are there issues to work out yes, but all players and owners are more than "fairly" compensated for a game they all love. In 1987 players had a reasonable claim in that owners controlled the whole playing field. Now not so much. Players also are doing better at marketing themselves outside of the sport (ie manning). This is about two super rich groups risking alienating the very fanbase which has bought into the hype and enjoyment of a sports entertainment package. If the billionare owners and millionaire players can't understand that a large percentage of the fanbase may work 10 to 20 years to earn what they earn in a few seasons (for the lowest paid player) than they are all being selfish with a sport that I and my family enjoy the heck out of.

No my support is not a question of fairness to the players, or the pity on owners who just want a reasonable return. My support is for the thousands of fans across the nation on boards like this one day in and day out rooting and cheering and aching when their team wins and loses.

Hopefully the greedy owners and selfish players hear that message through their various sycophants and media outlets!

As someone else mentioned police put their lives on the line daily, I don't see millionaire police officers (well not ones who aren't corrupt). Teachers in truly downtrodden school systems risk life and limb in trying to elevate their students out of despair - tell them about a guy with a 40 million dollar contract who isn't being fairly treated. Tell the miners who go down into the depths of the earth that the poor football players are not given more than 5 years of guaranteed health benefits, I doubt you will though cuz they would look at you like you are crazy.

The owners are no better. Tell other ceo's that their return rate in this economy is "only" 8% (or whatever). Or take their woe is me story to baseball which would love to have the same type player salaries and non-guaranteed contracts.

Both sides are at fault for not acknowledging that this system that upshaw and the old commissioner worked out really is a boon for the sport and all involved ought to do everything in their power to ensure it stays upright.

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The only players I feel a little pity for are the the grunts who work for the minimum or just a bit more than that. At least they have a case for being compensated for in case of serious injury or being cut.

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CRedskins, I understand your point completely. But look at this statement you made:

[B]The owners are no better. Tell other ceo's that their return rate in this economy is "only" 8% (or whatever). Or take their woe is me story to baseball which would love to have the same type player salaries and non-guaranteed contracts.[/B]

As much as the owners gripe about the players, the truth is the pie has grown larger and the game has gotten much more violent. For every Manning there are hundreds of Ethan Albrights. Those players who will continue to make relative chump change if we go in the direction the owners would like.

Yes there are billionaires and millionaires in the NFL. But the rising tide has not lifted all boats equally.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;778504]Give me a break please. Are there issues to work out yes, but all players and owners are more than "fairly" compensated for a game they all love. In 1987 players had a reasonable claim in that owners controlled the whole playing field. Now not so much. Players also are doing better at marketing themselves outside of the sport (ie manning). This is about two super rich groups risking alienating the very fanbase which has bought into the hype and enjoyment of a sports entertainment package. If the billionare owners and millionaire players can't understand that a large percentage of the fanbase may work 10 to 20 years to earn what they earn in a few seasons (for the lowest paid player) than they are all being selfish with a sport that I and my family enjoy the heck out of.

No my support is not a question of fairness to the players, or the pity on owners who just want a reasonable return. My support is for the thousands of fans across the nation on boards like this one day in and day out rooting and cheering and aching when their team wins and loses.

Hopefully the greedy owners and selfish players hear that message through their various sycophants and media outlets!

As someone else mentioned police put their lives on the line daily, I don't see millionaire police officers (well not ones who aren't corrupt). Teachers in truly downtrodden school systems risk life and limb in trying to elevate their students out of despair - tell them about a guy with a 40 million dollar contract who isn't being fairly treated. Tell the miners who go down into the depths of the earth that the poor football players are not given more than 5 years of guaranteed health benefits, I doubt you will though cuz they would look at you like you are crazy.

The owners are no better. Tell other ceo's that their return rate in this economy is "only" 8% (or whatever). Or take their woe is me story to baseball which would love to have the same type player salaries and non-guaranteed contracts.

Both sides are at fault for not acknowledging that this system that upshaw and the old commissioner worked out really is a boon for the sport and all involved ought to do everything in their power to ensure it stays upright.[/quote]

Well when it comes to being fairly compensated... one of the hot issues at hand is the availability of information. The owners have repeatedly claimed that the times are tough, and new economical problems have risen, so more revenue is needed to offset these extra costs.

The NFLPA has acknowledged this complaint, but wants some proof of the impact on the owners themselves. In short, the NFLPA wants the owners to show them the books and go from there. The owners will not even discuss this as a possibility. [URL="http://www.kansascity.com/2011/01/15/2586480/with-each-day-that-passes-likelihood.html"]The offer is completely off the table. [/URL]

Secondly, being fairly compensated also involves increased health benefits for the players. With the inevitability of an 18 games season, some real sticking points involve the players increased wages and health benefits for these two extra games. More games = more wear and tear on the body = more money to pay for the ailments. Rookie salaries are also up for debate as well.

Before you cry about how you don't want to hear their complaints because they're millionaires, consider the amount of work that an NFL player must go through in order to reach that status. It's an incredibly demanding job, and many players earn every penny through hard work, dedication, and a lot of luck.

Re: Rock out with your Lockout
 

[quote=SkinzWin;778491]Owners and players make way more money than they should now as it is. Why don't we move the NFL in the direction of the financial markets and allow us to get kick backs, "dividends", since we are the force that lines their pockets with green in the first place? That is the petition I want to sign. Until the day we have meaningful jobs like teachers, police officers and firemen get paid the same as these overpaid athletes, I will not be happy. I work just as hard as these guys who get to have fun for a minuscule percentage of their salary. Wait, am I sounding a tad bit bitter? Oops....[/quote]

I hate this argument. Let's really step back and look at this. Anyone can be a cop or a firefighter. Most people on this board could study/train for a year and become a cop or fireman. None of us could become world class athletes. What these players have are special skills that they hone, either for free or pay [tuition, equipment costs, etc], until the age of 20-21ish. Then they are given a very short career span to make money. Their routine work day includes far more violence and danger than the typical cop and fireman as well. I'm not saying service people don't face danger, but I'm arguing over the course of a week, a football player has a far higher risk of being seriously injured. Most of these guys get a short amount of time in the NFL, it's important they're well compensated.

Re: Rock out with your Lockout
 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nli57puretQ]YouTube - The NFL Lockout Exposed! How It Came To Be...[/ame]

Here's another take from former New England Patriots left tackle Brian Halloway.

[QUOTE=RobH4413;778508]. ... Before you cry about how you don't want to hear their complaints because they're millionaires, consider the amount of work that an NFL player must go through in order to reach that status. It's an incredibly demanding job, and many players earn every penny through hard work, dedication, and a lot of luck.[/QUOTE]
I want to be clear, I don't begrudge the players the money they make. Nor do the owners profit bother me. But sit down(both sides) and work out a reasonable solution recognizing that as a whole they are extremely fortunate people- all of whom have worked hard and are the best of the best in their profession. Don't ask me to cry or side with one over the other, simply sit down and do the hard work at the bargaining table, both sides give a little, and don't hold an outstanding fan base to your side's (either as an owner or player) most strict line.

I have a 13 year old son, NFL football is his passion, but he will "suffer" because grown men can't find common ground. That's a shame.

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Sure it's a shame, but watching football is luxury to most of us. Most of us don't need the game to make a dollar. For players and owners football is a means of sustenance. For many players it's their only vehicle of employment and betterment.

[QUOTE=Daseal;778509]I hate this argument. Let's really step back and look at this. Anyone can be a cop or a firefighter. Most people on this board could study/train for a year and become a cop or fireman. None of us could become world class athletes. What these players have are special skills that they hone, either for free or pay [tuition, equipment costs, etc], until the age of 20-21ish. Then they are given a very short career span to make money. Their routine work day includes far more violence and danger than the typical cop and fireman as well. I'm not saying service people don't face danger, but I'm arguing over the course of a week, a football player has a far higher risk of being seriously injured. Most of these guys get a short amount of time in the NFL, it's important they're well compensated.[/QUOTE]

I second that...

It's all based on the principles of supply and demand. If you think athletes are being paid too much it's in your best interest to NOT pay attention or monetarily support the sport. If you're the type of person who can't stop watching football then STOP complaining about the absurd amount of money in the game. If you feel that strongly about the comparasion between the pay of NFL athletes and community employees please don't reference how much you love and are knowledgable about the game because you are then part of the problem and are being hypocritical.

Simple solution for all of those holier than thou when it comes to the compensation...STOP watching, talking and knowing everything about it.

...I can't do that, that's why I'm at peace with the just payment for said demand.

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[quote=firstdown;778484]Where can we vote for owners?[/quote]

Usually I find unions to be tedious and troublesome but the owners are terrible in this case. The fact that the owners and Commissioner Goodell have been talking about fans are "excited" about the prospect of an 18 game season despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary really has gotten under my skin.

Re: Rock out with your Lockout
 

[quote=Dirtbag359;778518]Usually I find unions to be tedious and troublesome but the owners are terrible in this case. The fact that the owners and Commissioner Goodell have been talking about fans are "excited" about the prospect of an 18 game season despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary really has gotten under my skin.[/quote]

Another thing that is funny about that is he cites "all fans are excited about the possiblity of an 18 game season", meanwhile I haven't heard ANYONE I talk to that would like in the least.

What I have heard overwhelming fan support for is the ability for players to celebrate without fear of a sensitive penalty in the endzone after a touchdown.


So when is Goodell listening to fan support, when it is only in the best interest of the NFL?...Go screw Goodell and quit citing supposed fan support as sincere motives of the NFL.

Fans would have wanted the Vikings vs. Eagles game played in an all out blizzard and not played on a Tuesday night just so the NFL could buy another night in which it was the leading rated thing on television.

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[quote=hooskins;778516]Sure it's a shame, but watching football is luxury to most of us. Most of us don't need the game to make a dollar. For players and owners football is a means of sustenance. For many players it's their only vehicle of employment and betterment.[/quote]

There are many people involved in football games outside of the players who depend on the games to pay their bills

Re: Rock out with your Lockout
 

I say screw both sides and start a league were they play for the passion of the game like the old days.

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[quote=SmootSmack;778535]There are many people involved in football games outside of the players who depend on the games to pay their bills[/quote]

O.K. with this said what is better for them? The general workers that are never seen. Is it better for the owners to come on top or the players?

Re: Rock out with your Lockout
 

[quote=warpaint;778538]O.K. with this said what is better for them? The general workers that are never seen. Is it better for the owners to come on top or the players?[/quote]

It's better for there to be games, so I'll say the players

[QUOTE=warpaint;778538]O.K. with this said what is better for them? The general workers that are never seen. Is it better for the owners to come on top or the players?[/QUOTE]

What's best for them is that both sides reach a mutually beneficial agreement. Why is this such a difficult thing? Because both sides are acting out of greed. Everything else is just smoke.

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;778536]I say screw both sides and start a league were they play for the passion of the game like the old days.[/quote]

What are we talking about? The 1920s?

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[quote=SFREDSKIN;778536]I say screw both sides and start a league were they play for the passion of the game like the old days.[/quote]

The Lingerie Football League is definitely passionate and, just like Red Grange, its players wear lacy underwear.

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What is missing from the dynamic of the negotiations is precisely the voice of the fans that is loud and clear here.

Fans want football so they want a resolution to these "issues" immediately. But the fans have no voice in the negotiations even though all of the $$$ that all these folks are fighting over come from the pockets of the fans - - and the taxpayers in cities that have funded stadiums for teams.

The fans pay the freight but the players and the owners decide whether or not the fans - - the one's paying the freight may I remind you - - get to see games next year.

That is what is wrong with this picture. Put fans in the room with the power of the dollars and this would be fixed in a flash.

The NFL expects to take in revenues just under $9B this year. Player salaries and benefits amount to just under 60% of that revenue or just under $5.4B.

And those folks can't figure out how to share that pie so that everyone gets a fair share? Give me a BREAK!

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[quote=firstdown;778484]Where can we vote for owners?[/quote]

lolololol....FD I wont see you down in the players picket lines? I took you for a union man.

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SmootSmack, I know that the many that depend on NFL to pay their bills includes you and ESPN. I completely understand that, and I understand the residual impacts of the league. But you can't say out of all Americans employed the majority of them are dependent on the NFL for employment. I would venture to say you could not even make such a claim for the plurality of employed Americans.

No football next year would impact many Americans but not a plurality.

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[quote=hooskins;778605]SmootSmack, I know that the many that depend on NFL to pay their bills includes you and ESPN. I completely understand that, and I understand the residual impacts of the league. But you can't say out of all Americans employed the majority of them are dependent on the NFL for employment. I would venture to say you could not even make such a claim for the plurality of employed Americans.

No football next year would impact many Americans but not a plurality.[/quote]

Honestly, it won't have as big an impact on me as it would many of my colleagues. I'm actually a bit more screwed by an NBA lockout. If anything, an NFL lockout may help me if it increases interest in college football.

But when did I ever say the majority are dependent on the NFL?

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Yeah, you never said majority. We just need to define "many".

But a lockout in the NFL has to have secondary impacts on your position. Perhaps not immediate but eventual.

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[quote=CRedskinsRule;778504]Give me a break please. Are there issues to work out yes, but all players and owners are more than "fairly" compensated for a game they all love. In 1987 players had a reasonable claim in that owners controlled the whole playing field. Now not so much. Players also are doing better at marketing themselves outside of the sport (ie manning). This is about two super rich groups risking alienating the very fanbase which has bought into the hype and enjoyment of a sports entertainment package. If the billionare owners and millionaire players can't understand that a large percentage of the fanbase may work 10 to 20 years to earn what they earn in a few seasons (for the lowest paid player) than they are all being selfish with a sport that I and my family enjoy the heck out of.

No my support is not a question of fairness to the players, or the pity on owners who just want a reasonable return. My support is for the thousands of fans across the nation on boards like this one day in and day out rooting and cheering and aching when their team wins and loses.

Hopefully the greedy owners and selfish players hear that message through their various sycophants and media outlets!

[B]As someone else mentioned police put their lives on the line daily, I don't see millionaire police officers (well not ones who aren't corrupt). Teachers in truly downtrodden school systems risk life and limb in trying to elevate their students out of despair - tell them about a guy with a 40 million dollar contract who isn't being fairly treated. Tell the miners who go down into the depths of the earth that the poor football players are not given more than 5 years of guaranteed health benefits, I doubt you will though cuz they would look at you like you are crazy.[/B]

The owners are no better. Tell other ceo's that their return rate in this economy is "only" 8% (or whatever). Or take their woe is me story to baseball which would love to have the same type player salaries and non-guaranteed contracts.

Both sides are at fault for not acknowledging that this system that upshaw and the old commissioner worked out really is a boon for the sport and all involved ought to do everything in their power to ensure it stays upright.[/quote]

this argument really doesn't hold up. just like an actor, surgeon, golfer or football player, it takes a special skill to do what these guys do. and becuase of that skill people are highly compensated for it. it doesn't take a special skill to be a police officer or teacher. i commend teachers cause my mom was one but gotta keep it real.

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I don't know much about all these complex issues but I'd have to side with the players. Isn't the argument that the owners say they're losing money? And the union is saying open up the books to prove it? and the owners aren't willing to do so. Don't the owners make a shit load of $ off the TV money? I just find it hard to believe that owners are losing money with revenue sharing and tv deals.

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Not sure I would even watch the NFL if they do what they did in 87 and have scab games.

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[quote=skinsfan69;778617]this argument really doesn't hold up. just like an actor, surgeon, golfer or football player, it takes a special skill to do what these guys do. and becuase of that skill people are highly compensated for it. it doesn't take a special skill to be a police officer or teacher. i commend teachers cause my mom was one but gotta keep it real.[/quote]

It depends on what argument is being made. I am not arguing against players making the dollars they make. Nor am I arguing that the players aren't the best of the best. I understand that they have trained and honed their bodies and skills to levels that are equivalent to a highly skilled surgeon. My argument when invoking police officers, teachers, coal miners, etc is that their chosen profession involves risks. The players risk their health every time they step on the field, they are modern day gladiators, and they are given high salaries, and more long-term health care than others in our society who put themselves in equally hazardous conditions.

If the next CBA includes extended healthcare privileges, and I hope it does, than excellent. But the head of the NFLPA has repeatedly made it sound like the players are not being fairly treated in health coverage and that's not right (in my opinion) based on the normal contractual agreements in other high risk professions.

Once again, both sides have a huge pie to slice up, and if the players want longer health insurance than ok, but let's look at what other slices need to shrink to make that happen, maybe rookie wage cap, maybe less of the overall pie goes to player salaries. Maybe it comes from a combined source. I don't know the answers, but I know that there is enough of a pot that working together the NFLPA and owners ought to be able to come up with a reasonable solution.

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[quote=skinsfan69;778620]Not sure I would even watch the NFL if they do what they did in 87 and have scab games.[/quote]

Scab games is what we need. America loves the NFL and the league needs to field replacement teams if they refuse to agree to a new CBA....

Can they even use replacement players?? Someone earlier said that replacement players are forbidden.

EDIT: I answered my own question. The linked article says that the league may indeed use replacement players...

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So much to say on this thread, where to start?

To all those that like to use the trite public servant examples w/teachers, policemen, etc., be aware that in some states & localities those employees have unions too. Just like the NFLPA, those unions are equally criticized for doing what unions do - trying to get the most for thier membership. (Never mind that virtually none of these professionals has to be the very best to get a job like an nfl player does.)

The main reason that I really get sick of hearing arguments like 'pro athletes don't do as much for society as teachers, but they get paid so much more...' is that the logic is essentially assuming socialism. Saying someone "should" make the same or less as someone else assumes that they are both being paid from the same pool of money, which in this case they obviously aren't. If you think teachers & pro athletes should make the same amount, you basically are saying you believe in the tenets of socialism.

Me? I'm not a socialist, and if I truly feel the players or owners are making too much or not deserving, I'll simply discontinue my consumption of the products they sell.