Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

I'll use this thread to post game tape of Ryan Torain.

[B][I]Update: Bears game sans sound can be found [URL="http://youtu.be/eNd3mIBAYQ0"]here.[/URL] If you at least need music may I suggest something by [URL="http://youtu.be/vQVeaIHWWck"]Beethoven [/URL]to enhance the experience.[/I][/B]

[YT]GTQTJX30bBs[/YT]

[YT]v01fjiNXElU[/YT]

It's amazing how easy it was to put together RB highlights compared to QB's. This video took me a 1/4 of the time to make when compared to the Grossman videos. Assuming anyone cares QB videos take about an hour to an hour and a half to put together. Running Backs on the other hand look like they're going to take 20 to 25 minutes per game.

In other news the John Beck videos are a complete failure. We didn't quite capture the viewership of the South American audience like we originally planned.

Chicago or Philly Week 4 will likely be the next Torain video.

[B]Bonus Video:[/B] [URL="http://youtu.be/k0EMEyOOlDo"]Keiland Williams Week 11 vs Titans[/URL]

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Helu and Torrain can provide a nice smash and dash combo whenever football resumes.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Helu looks exciting. I hope our young guys can get into camp on time so they can take their lumps early. Torrain certainly had some great games last year.

You can tell Shanny likes the mold of the shifty, atheltic RB. These two run kind of similar and Torrain isn't afraid to lower the shoulder.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Nice move on that touchdown at 4:00.
Nice blocks by Cooley and Sellers too.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

The thing that bothers me is how few carries I'm finding in the second half of games and so far I've come up with only two explanations. Either the defense has allowed to many points (Dallas and Indy) or they're getting tired in the second half and giving up long drives allowing the opposition to control possession in the second half (Tampa). Either way this has to change.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Tampa game is now up. Check first post for embedded video.
[URL="http://youtu.be/GTQTJX30bBs"]Ryan Torain Week 14 vs Buccaneers[/URL]

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Torain's vision is non-existant. But he's so smooth once he's past the LOS that he's going to be employed in the NFL for at least the next few years, and in a ball-carrying role. If not here, then somewhere else.

Torain needs one more skill to be a legit starting NFL runningback. He either needs to add the ability to go the distance when he touches the ball, or he needs the decisiveness to not try to take everything to the corner and never get upfield. If he could solve just one of those problems, he'd be a legit starter.

Basically, Torain is an extreme boom-or-bust runner whose "boom" typically ends at 15 yards.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=GTripp0012;804531]Torain's vision is non-existant. But he's so smooth once he's past the LOS that he's going to be employed in the NFL for at least the next few years, and in a ball-carrying role. If not here, then somewhere else.

Torain needs one more skill to be a legit starting NFL runningback. He either needs to add the ability to go the distance when he touches the ball, or he needs the decisiveness to not try to take everything to the corner and never get upfield. If he could solve just one of those problems, he'd be a legit starter.

Basically, Torain is an extreme boom-or-bust runner whose "boom" typically ends at 15 yards.[/quote]

He has to be doing something right though. I mean I agree that he goes to the outside to much but how he emerges from these crowds after going so far laterally is beyond me.

As for the boom or bust, I guess thats just the point of zone blocking to begin with as theres such an emphasis on getting to the second level in the interest of breaking off big runs. Where as power blocking is obsessed with making sure that anyone at the line of scrimmage is blocked even if it means leaving linebackers virtually untouched.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;804536][B]He has to be doing something right though. [/B] I mean I agree that he goes to the outside to much but how he emerges from these crowds after going so far laterally is beyond me.

As for the boom or bust, I guess thats just the point of zone blocking to begin with as theres such an emphasis on getting to the second level in the interest of breaking off big runs. Where as power blocking is obsessed with making sure that anyone at the line of scrimmage is blocked even if it means leaving linebackers virtually untouched.[/quote]

I agree. He is always falling forward and he is one cut and done as opposed to some of these other backs who are triple faking their way to negative yardage.

He plays well in this system so that is another advantage. I feel he can serve as a cost efficient role player who can be valuable.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;804536]He has to be doing something right though. I mean I agree that he goes to the outside to much but how he emerges from these crowds after going so far laterally is beyond me.

As for the boom or bust, I guess thats just the point of zone blocking to begin with as theres such an emphasis on getting to the second level in the interest of breaking off big runs. Where as power blocking is obsessed with making sure that anyone at the line of scrimmage is blocked even if it means leaving linebackers virtually untouched.[/quote]Well, I don't know if I would say that he has to be doing something right. I think Torain makes a lot of good things happen simply by moving his feet in the hole. He doesn't really ever run to daylight, so there's limited upside to his strong balance and lower body strength. The upside is that he'll keep running until two or three guys bring him down. But Keiland Williams, for example, runs with much better vision and often does find space to break a long run that Torain wouldn't have.

Ryan Torain is a hard runner who rarely gives up on a play. He's just not a particularly effective runner. But he's the kind of guy who will tear to shreds a terrible run defense (such as Tampa Bay) because there are gaping holes in the defense created by the blocking, and he usually powers through the first tackle and drags other players for extra yards.

Those yards after first contact aren't meaningless, but they don't outweigh the frequency at which a Torain carry can put the Redskins in long yardage.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=GTripp0012;804544]

Ryan Torain is a hard runner who rarely gives up on a play. He's just not a particularly effective runner. [B]But he's the kind of guy who will tear to shreds a terrible run defense (such as Tampa Bay)[/B] because there are gaping holes in the defense created by the blocking, and he usually powers through the first tackle and drags other players for extra yards.
[/quote]

I had the same fear that he was only doing well against poor run defenses (Indy and Tampa who were both in the bottom 10 in the league). However Torain also averaged over 6 yards per carry with a 120 yards rushing against the 4th best run defense in Chicago so at the very least he has that to his credit. Bottom line though, with eight 3-4 games on next years schedule we desperately need Torain to be healthy as a huge part of running against 3-4 teams is breaking arm tackles.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

we r board

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=skinsfaninok;804547]we r board[/quote]

Are you not ENTERTAINED?

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;804546]I had the same fear that he was only doing well against poor run defenses (Indy and Tampa who were both in the bottom 10 in the league). However Torain also averaged over 6 yards per carry with a 120 yards rushing against the 4th best run defense in Chicago so at the very least he has that to his credit. Bottom line though, with eight 3-4 games on next years schedule we desperately need Torain to be healthy as a huge part of running against 3-4 teams is breaking arm tackles.[/quote]Some of his more careless ball security issue aside, I thought Chicago was his best game as a runner. That was also a particularly good game for our rushing scheme. We really did have the Chicago D off balance all game.

The last play of the Bears game was Torain's best play of the season. If he learns to take that run to the end zone, he can be a true NFL feature back.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;804511]The thing that bothers me is how few carries I'm finding in the second half of games and so far I've come up with only two explanations. Either the defense has allowed to many points (Dallas and Indy) or they're getting tired in the second half and giving up long drives allowing the opposition to control possession in the second half (Tampa). Either way this has to change.[/quote]First off thanks for these youtube clips.

Or Kyle gets away from calling runs?

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;804549]Are you not ENTERTAINED?[/quote]

Spaniard! Spaniard! Spaniard!

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=GTripp0012;804544]I think Torain makes a lot of good things happen simply by moving his feet in the hole. He doesn't really ever run to daylight, so there's limited upside to his strong balance and lower body strength. The upside is that he'll keep running until two or three guys bring him down. But Keiland Williams, for example, runs with much better vision and often does find space to break a long run that Torain wouldn't have.

Ryan Torain is a hard runner who rarely gives up on a play. He's just not a particularly effective runner. But he's the kind of guy who will tear to shreds a terrible run defense (such as Tampa Bay) because there are gaping holes in the defense created by the blocking, and he usually powers through the first tackle and drags other players for extra yards.

Those yards after first contact aren't meaningless, but they don't outweigh the frequency at which a Torain carry can put the Redskins in long yardage.
[/quote]I think we agree for about Torrain for the most part but I don't understand why you would call him ineffecitve or think he puts the team in long yardage any more then any other RB.

I think Torrain's vision and his ability as a runner are better then you give him credit for.
I'm not saying he's a special back because he's not; but he's decent.

He likes to keep the play frontside he's not looking to cutback, which limits the explosive runs he can make (on his own) in this scheme.
I also think Torrain is right not to look for the cutback because he doesn't cutback very well, which might be because of his upright running style and stiff hips.
He also lacks the top end speed to exploit the huge holes when then happen.

Torrain's best ability is that for some reason he's hard to bring down, he doesn't have wiggle nor does it look like he's running hard, but he's tough to bring down.

Torrain success as a runner comes from trusting/being dependent on the OL and his ability to stay up.

And at a 4.5 ypc carry clip he's not a bad back.


I like Keiland more then Torrain also, but Keiland is a young back who needs playing time (that he didn't get) to build confidence.

Where Torrain lacks the ability and is right not to make aggressive cutback moves I think Keiland does have the ability but lacks the confidence that comes with experience to make those risky cutbacks.
Therefore Kei often runs with the aim of picking up whatever yards are there at the POA much like Torrain.
But, I think Keiland has the potential to be more then a frontside runner.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Dirt-
Are you taking requests?

Could you cut up Keiland Williams stuff from the Titans game?

BTW-You are my hero.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=30gut;804683]I think we agree for about Torrain for the most part but I don't understand why you would call him ineffecitve or think he puts the team in long yardage any more then any other RB.

I think Torrain's vision and his ability as a runner are better then you give him credit for.
I'm not saying he's a special back because he's not; but he's decent.

He likes to keep the play frontside he's not looking to cutback, which limits the explosive runs he can make (on his own) in this scheme.
I also think Torrain is right not to look for the cutback because he doesn't cutback very well, which might be because of his upright running style and stiff hips.
He also lacks the top end speed to exploit the huge holes when then happen.

Torrain's best ability is that for some reason he's hard to bring down, he doesn't have wiggle nor does it look like he's running hard, but he's tough to bring down.

Torrain success as a runner comes from trusting/being dependent on the OL and his ability to stay up.

[B]And at a 4.5 ypc carry clip he's not a bad back.[/B]


I like Keiland more then Torrain also, but Keiland is a young back who needs playing time (that he didn't get) to build confidence.

Where Torrain lacks the ability and is right not to make aggressive cutback moves I think Keiland does have the ability but lacks the confidence that comes with experience to make those risky cutbacks.
Therefore Kei often runs with the aim of picking up whatever yards are there at the POA much like Torrain.
But, I think Keiland has the potential to be more then a frontside runner.[/quote]All good points. I'll address the YPA argument here because it's something I haven't already covered above.

RBs get their value (well, rushing value, blocking/receiving are such underrated skills for RBs) in one of two ways, they must either consistently get positive yards that are also valuable, or they must provide the "shock" play, usually a long TD run, at a better than average rate. I struggle to put Torain in one of these two categories because he doesn't neatly fit.

Torain provides "shock" plays to a starving offense, which is why I believe some overvalue him in an offense like the Redskins. When Torain gets loose on the edge and moves beyond the linebackers and into the secondary with long strides, the Redskins move down the field fairly quickly. Torain has a knack for bunching his 17 yard gains together and moving the offense down the field. In the red zone, he's an average player. His skill set doesn't diminish in the red zones: his TDs scored are pretty proportional to all of his value statistics.

On the other hand, Torain would probably be better classified as a running back who gets his value from consistently getting positive yards. When the Redskins move down the field on the back of their running game, it's usually because Torain is stringing together a bunch of plays. So Torain gets and deserves the credit for these drives. But if we increase the sample to include all Redskins drives in the ten games Torain was active for, the offensive production doesn't look like it has a 4.5 YPC running back touching the football 17 times per game. Mostly because if we think of Torain as a 4.5 YPC back, we miss the boom or bust nature of his runs. Ryan Torain lost yards on 28 of his 164 (17%) carries. Clinton Portis, who was deemed too old and ineffective to earn a roster spot next year, lost yards on 6 of his 54 (9%) carries behind the same (arguably worse because it was earlier in the season) OL.

So it's not the OL that's causing Torain to lose yards so frequently. It might be Cooley and Sellers, but the reason I believe that those two are blowing so many blocks that causes Torain to be TFL is because he never cuts it up inside the tight end, so he's putting those players in a no win situation on blocking...a situation that Cooley and Fred Davis are actually winning way more likely than they should.

Like I said above, YPC is always going to overstate Torain's effectiveness on runs, but if he either stops losing yards so frequently or learns to take the ball to the house from 40+ yards out, you'll see that YPC extend over 5.0 and he'll be a positive value runner at that point. Right now, I think he's slightly negative in terms of value as a runner, although he's an above average pass blocker and he adds something to the passing attack as a receiver.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=30gut;804684]Dirt-
Are you taking requests?

Could you cut up Keiland Williams stuff from the Titans game?

BTW-You are my hero.[/quote]

I take donations. Big donations and cup holders. Lol, but yeah, Titans game is a good game to study so making a Keiland Williams cut shouldn't be a problem. I'm glad though you asked for a running back. The Landry videos were fun to put together but sort of time consuming. The QB's were a little tedious to put together but at the same time easily the most informative. Running Backs are by far the easiest ones to assemble.

Actually the funny thing is InsaneBoost deserves a lot of the credit as he provided the raw material for virtually every single video I've posted the past week. Kind of hope he starts posting here again so I can thank him.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

I'm loving these. I was so disappointed in last season, I stopped watching after awhile. Other things contributed too. Thanks Dirt' and 'Boost.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;804702]I take donations. Big donations and cup holders. Lol, but yeah, Titans game is a good game to study so making a Keiland Williams cut shouldn't be a problem.[/quote].....sometimes there's a man
he's the man for his time'n place,

he fits right in there--and that's

[quote]Actually the funny thing is InsaneBoost deserves a lot of the credit as he provided the raw material for virtually every single video I've posted the past week. Kind of hope he starts posting here again so I can thank him.[/quote]InsaneBoost and tenyard torrents are under my favorites.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Para 30gut-san.
[YT]k0EMEyOOlDo[/YT]

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

I personally love the way he played last year. He ran tough, made right thought we'd draft more Oline or possible corners. I hope they allow Torain to keep the job. He did a really good job last year when healthy. Hopefully he can stay healthy.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;804733]Para 30gut-san.
[YT]k0EMEyOOlDo[/YT][/quote]Kei ran had several nice cutback runs, far more then a remembered he showed nice moves/footwork/wiggle/pitter patter whatever you want to call it Kei made several cuts that I don't think Torrain can make.

BTW-
You my friend, are a beast.
Cheers-
[IMG]http://techteachshs.wikispaces.com/file/view/beer.jpg/32398607/beer.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

No problem. Actually I was able to put it together in 15 minutes by using the [URL="http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/54969/TEN_Gamebook.pdf"]game book[/URL] off NFL.com which showed me the exact points where Keiland touched the ball. So rather then having to watch every single offensive snap I was able to just scroll to the seconds leading up to the snap. Hell of a time saver.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Thanks again Dirtbag!! Hard to judge him against these teams as I imagine anybody will look like a pro-bowler going up against those guys. That said, I'll make some my observations on him.

[B][U]Positives:[/U][/B]
1) Runs hard
2) Not easy to bring down


[U][B]Negatives:[/B][/U]
1) Has absolutely no game breaking speed
2) Seems to slow down to a halt for some cuts and jukes
3) Limited vision. Some of his cuts went the wrong way.


All in all, I like Ryan Torain and I'd rather have him in the backfield than Portis. However, I think Torain is at best a backup, and I have a feeling Helu is going to be starting if/when the season ever gets underway. That is on the condition that Helu actually absorbs Shanny's offense and understands what to do. (unlike a D. Thomas)

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=30gut;804868]Kei ran had several nice cutback runs, far more then a remembered he showed nice moves/footwork/wiggle/pitter patter whatever you want to call it Kei made several cuts that I don't think Torrain can make.

BTW-
You my friend, are a beast.
Cheers-
[IMG]http://techteachshs.wikispaces.com/file/view/beer.jpg/32398607/beer.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

I thought K. Williams looked below average at best on that film. Maybe I was looking at it wrong.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

If you have request please let me know. Doesn't mean I'll put together the video right away but I'll certainly try to get to it. Brian Orakpo, MeAngelo (not so much an insult as much as I love the way it rolls off the tongue), Los, Cooley, Moss, and McNabb are among the other players I've considered highlighting. Both Dallas games, Indy, New York Week 17, Houston, Tennessee, and Tampa are the easiest games for me to put together right now.

Speaking of short videos check out [URL="http://youtu.be/cml60bOLs68"]Anthony Armstrong Weeks 14-17[/URL]. Lol, now I'm reminded why I hate receivers. Fletcher, Landry, Torain, Williams, and Grossman have all produced one game videos no shorter then 6 minutes. Armstrong on the other hand I can fit 4 weeks worth of games in one video.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Ryan Torain vs Bears without sound can be found here. Seems to flow better though without sound as I was allowed to focus simply on getting the right shots rather then making sure I included relevant commentary.
[YT]eNd3mIBAYQ0[/YT]

Santana Moss Week 16 and 17 video will be available by the time most of you read this.
[YT]gC_qvrMwhXA[/YT]

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=Bucket;804891]I thought K. Williams looked below average at best on that film. Maybe I was looking at it wrong.[/quote]We probably just see it different, but I would be happy to point out the plays I thought where he displayed good vision and/or made good cut-back/jump cut moves.

Just let me know if you care to discuss.

-30g

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Has anyone ever noticed that Mike and Kyle's praise of Torain always seems kind lukewarm?

In the interviews I've seen about Torain and Keiland, it always seemed to me that they liked Torain, but they [i]really[/i] liked Keiland, because Keiland fits that mold of "one cut" more than Torain does. The Bears game probably was his most impressive game, but his other games were against subpar run defenses.

He just doesn't fit the kind of "one cut mold" the way Shanahan likes. He's still productive, but he actually kind of seems like he'd be a better Joe Gibbs back, in a weird way.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=NLC1054;805164]Has anyone ever noticed that Mike and Kyle's praise of Torain always seems kind lukewarm?

In the interviews I've seen about Torain and Keiland, it always seemed to me that they liked Torain, but they [I]really[/I] liked Keiland, because Keiland fits that mold of "one cut" more than Torain does. The Bears game probably was his most impressive game, but his other games were against subpar run defenses.

He just doesn't fit the kind of "one cut mold" the way Shanahan likes. He's still productive, but he actually kind of seems like he'd be a better Joe Gibbs back, in a weird way.[/quote]

why did they play him more than Williams then? GTripp pointed it out that they only gave the ball to Williams when Torain et al were hurt.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=freddyg12;805169]why did they play him more than Williams then? GTripp pointed it out that they only gave the ball to Williams when Torain et al were hurt.[/quote]

Because despite him not fitting the typical "Shanahan running back" mold, he was still more productive. Torain had the hot hand, and a lot of his big runs came after contact or breaking a tackle. Keiland wasn't going to run through anyone like Torain did.

But Keiland still displayed better field vision and was a better pass catcher and pass protector than Torain.

It's hard to argue with production, but I just seem to remember a couple interviews with Mike and Kyle where they weren't as free flowing with their praise of Torain as they were with Keiland.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

Welcome to the board NLC

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=SmootSmack;805178]Welcome to the board NLC[/quote]

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

KW will definitely have a role here next year. He's a nice dual threat with good vision.

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=NLC1054;805180]Thanks, I appreciate it.[/quote]

So what brings you here. How long have you been a fan of the Skins, etcetera, etcetera?

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=Mattyk;805182]KW will definitely have a role here next year. He's a nice dual threat with good vision.[/quote]

He can't block worth shit, as I recall. But he's good in the open field with the ball in his hands

Re: Game Tape: Ryan Torain
 

[quote=SmootSmack;805196]He can't block worth shit, as I recall. But he's good in the open field with the ball in his hands[/quote]

Mike Shanahan said that K-Wil was the best blocker on the team after CP went down. Now that's not saying a whole lot considering CP is one of the best blocking backs in the game, but compare his blocking to Torain and like, James Davis, and it's a lot better. I was the one who cut the film of Donovan McNabb in the Colts game, and Keiland has some pretty impressive blitz pick-ups. That's the reason he was out there on third down so often.