ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/06/15/packers-named-best-franchise-in-sports-bengals-named-worst/]Packers named best franchise in sports, Bengals named worst | ProFootballTalk[/url]


The Redskins continue the downward spiral in media reputation.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

What did the five fingers say to the face? SLAPP! lawsuit.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

That's a joke. We're not one of the best-run but we're nowhere near that. The Pirates beat is? ESPN is becoming a trash source on par with the National Enquirer.

We've won 5 championships and been in 5 Super Bowls, winning 3. That should put us mid-pack at least. Our coach is a 2-time champ and we're turning things around after a bad decade.


As for "media reputation", who cares...they're the same idiots who sold some of us on "Hope and Change" too. That turned out well.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

Down with ESPN worse media outlet EVER. All of their on air personalities and writers are terrible. Not to mention their employees who are probably the most arrogant and self absorbed people in the solar system. Like seriously, how bad are their employees. They make the people at Enron look like saints.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

To this? I say suck a meat-sack ESPN.

Pirates
MARLINS
ROYALS
CLIPPERS


JUST .... to name a few off the top of my head and I don't feel like typing the 20 more or so in that are out there worse off then we are.

Go suck off Tony romo and stop writing shit.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

I believe things are turning around for the team. Wishful thinking perhaps? Maybe, but we took a precipitous drop over the past two years. I know I mentioned it to some people here but in terms of fan surveys (people ranking their favorite teams, how they feel about certain organizations, etc.) the Redskins are at the lowest they have been in over 15 years. They dropped significantly in the last survey

All the past championships the franchise has won and rings our head coach has are irrelevant to this report.

Do I think 2nd to last is too low? Yes, as do many other people here (contrary to popular belief-there are a lot of high ranking people here who are Redskins fans), but hopefully this is as bad as it gets for us., and let's not kid ourselve into pretending Super Bowls won as "recently" as 20 years ago should allow us to ignore all the issues of today.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;807114]Down with ESPN worse media outlet EVER. All of their on air personalities and writers are terrible. Not to mention their employees who are probably the most arrogant and self absorbed people in the solar system. Like seriously, how bad are their employees. They make the people at Enron look like saints.[/quote]

Son, we live in a world that has sports, and those sports have to be covered by the media. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Dirtbag? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for Jack Kent Cooke and you curse the Cowboys. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know

You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want us at ESPN! You need us at ESPN!

and so on...

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;807118]Son, we live in a world that has sports, and those sports have to be covered by the media. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Dirtbag? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for Jack Kent Cooke and you curse the Cowboys. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know

You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want us at ESPN! You need us at ESPN!

and so on...[/quote]

:lol:

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

HA ! Lavar and Dukes, Sportsradio 106, 7 The FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN !!!

Ha, they just gave lavar and chad about 2 1/2 hours of material !

Eff 'em all ! I'm down with the second worst franchise in the nation until I die ! Hail Mother Effers !

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

I hear that NC_Skins contributed a lot to this piece, hence the low rankings. LOL. (I kid, I kid).

I still don't get how the Orioles and Nats are ranked higher than the Skins.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

"The “Best Franchises In Sports” feature is part of ESPN The Magazine’s Ultimate Standings methodology study, which determines an overall ranking for pro sports franchises according to how much they give back to fans for the time, money and emotion they invest in them.
The rankings are determined by a multi-tiered analysis that examines a team’s efficiency in spending fan money as compared to its on-field performance. It also factors in feedback in 21 categories from more than 70,000 fans nationwide, both online at ESPN.com and in polling conducted by both independent third parties."

The “Best Franchises In Sports” feature is part of ESPN The Magazine’s Ultimate Standings methodology study, which determines an overall ranking for pro sports franchises according to how much they give back to fans for the time, money and emotion they invest in them.

The rankings are determined by a multi-tiered analysis that examines a team’s efficiency in spending fan money as compared to its on-field performance. It also factors in feedback in 21 categories from more than 70,000 fans nationwide, both online at ESPN.com and in polling conducted by both independent third parties."

^ based off of this it kind of makes sense. We have a huge fan base that puts tons of emotion, time and money to the team and most people have been pretty upset. I think were definitely a little too low though. But at least we don’t really have anywhere to go but up, right? SS do you have insight on the other 21categories?

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

They hate our owner, they hate our coach because of the McNabb thing.

I mean, that's the only reason we're the 121st worst franchise. Because everyone hates Dan Snyder (it's cool to hate Dan Snyder like it's cool to hate Justin Bieber nowadays), and everyone hates Mike Shanahan because he benched Donovan McNabb, so that makes us the 2nd worst franchise.

There's still 80,000 or more people that fill FedEx Field every week. We're still one of the most profitable franchises in the NFL. We did make the playoffs in 2007. We're clearly in rebuild mode, which should be a good thing, since we're finally acknowledging that we [i]need[/i] to rebuild.

Basically, the media at large needs a team to beat up on, so they can either 1.) laugh at every misfortune, even if the mistakes are relatively small, or 2.) be faux-shocked that they do well. It used to be the Lions, right now it's the Redskins.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=mlmpetert;807124]"The “Best Franchises In Sports” feature is part of ESPN The Magazine’s Ultimate Standings methodology study, which determines an overall ranking for pro sports franchises according to how much they give back to fans for the time, money and emotion they invest in them.
The rankings are determined by a multi-tiered analysis that examines a team’s efficiency in spending fan money as compared to its on-field performance. It also factors in feedback in 21 categories from more than 70,000 fans nationwide, both online at ESPN.com and in polling conducted by both independent third parties."

The “Best Franchises In Sports” feature is part of ESPN The Magazine’s Ultimate Standings methodology study, which determines an overall ranking for pro sports franchises according to how much they give back to fans for the time, money and emotion they invest in them.

The rankings are determined by a multi-tiered analysis that examines a team’s efficiency in spending fan money as compared to its on-field performance. It also factors in feedback in 21 categories from more than 70,000 fans nationwide, both online at ESPN.com and in polling conducted by both independent third parties."

^ based off of this it kind of makes sense. We have a huge fan base that puts tons of emotion, time and money to the team and most people have been pretty upset. I think were definitely a little too low though. But at least we don’t really have anywhere to go but up, right? SS do you have insight on the other 21categories?[/quote]

Like what sort of insight do you mean?

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

Nevermind i had trouble getting the espn webpage to load ealier...... I was kind of wrong on the 21 categories thing. I think this answears what i was trying to ask:

In all, 122 teams from the NFL, NBA, NHL and Major League Baseball were ranked in order, based on a weighted average of scores in eight different categories ranging from the quantitative to the emotionally subjective: “bang for the buck” (24.3%), players (16.6%), fan relations (16.5%), affordability (14.1%), stadium experience (9.1%), ownership (9.0%), title track (6.7%), and coaching (3.9%).


But based off of this im not even sure how they factored in the 21 categories the fans voted on.... not sure it matters....

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=Meks;807115]To this? I say suck a meat-sack ESPN.

Pirates
MARLINS
ROYALS
CLIPPERS


JUST .... to name a few off the top of my head and I don't feel like typing the 20 more or so in that are out there worse off then we are.

Go suck off Tony romo and stop writing shit.[/quote]

:lol: You've said it perfectly for all of us. :goodjob:

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

Uhhh, wasn't there a team recently seized by their league, because of mis- management? The Dodgers ranked ahead of the Skins?

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;807118]Son, we live in a world that has sports, and those sports have to be covered by the media. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lieutenant Dirtbag? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for Jack Kent Cooke and you curse the Cowboys. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know

You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want us at ESPN! You need us at ESPN!

and so on...[/quote]
First of all LOVE the A Few Good Men reference. I am tempted to stop slacking off of work to be on a message board to slack off of work and fire up Crackle to watch a few scenes.

That being said, I see your ESPN and raise you NFL Network. Not to spit at the Golden Goose that keeps the lights on in Smack-ville but they take the 'E' in ESPN to the extreme to where I don't consider that journalism anymore, it's more TMZ than CNN.

On topic, I think that's ridiculously low and I'm a little tired of being a national punching bag but coming off of the Cerrato years with McNabb/Haynesworth stench still floating around we need a strong 2011 and a great 2012 to move the needle on public perception.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=BuckSkin;807135]Uhhh, wasn't there a team recently seized by their league, because of mis- management? The Dodgers ranked ahead of the Skins?[/quote]

Dodgers are in a cash-flow problem because the owners are in a hugely expensive divorce situation. Estimates are that they will spend $20M on lawyers in that divorce...


Mets are also in a financially precarious position.


Phoenix Coyotes actually declared bankruptcy and had to be bought out by the NHL just to avoid having a guy buy the team that the league does not want as an owner.


The Lions, Bengals, Clippers, Pirates, Royals and Cubs are all worse franchises than the Redskins.


Having said that, the Redskins have to be in the bottom 25% of that ranking of 122 franchises.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

A good franchise is a profitable one...

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=Paintrain;807136]First of all LOVE the A Few Good Men reference. I am tempted to stop slacking off of work to be on a message board to slack off of work and fire up Crackle to watch a few scenes.[/quote]

Worth it

[quote]That being said, I see your ESPN and raise you NFL Network. Not to spit at the Golden Goose that keeps the lights on in Smack-ville but they take the 'E' in ESPN to the extreme to where I don't consider that journalism anymore, it's more TMZ than CNN.[/quote]

Your opinion, which you are entitled to. Not naive to the fact there is TMZ like journalism at times, but there's plenty of oustanding journalism here as well (for the record, I have nothing to do with the journalism here). Which I know many would not willingly admit to, lest they think they're being uncool by liking something ESPN has to offer. Do I get a bit defensive at times? Sure, but that's largely because they're watching me...kidding, it's because having worked with four major media companies this is hands down the best I've worked with. And with CNN turning to Bill Maher for political insight...I don't hold them in such high regard

[quote]On topic, I think that's ridiculously low and I'm a little tired of being a national punching bag but coming off of the Cerrato years with McNabb/Haynesworth stench still floating around we need a strong 2011 and a great 2012 to move the needle on public perception.[/quote]

I agree that it is low, but maybe not ridiculously low. And as I said before (becuause I know people think this is place is run by Redskins haters), others here would agree. But there a lot of factors involved, not least of which was the sports fans' impressions. And most sports fans think as poorly (most poorly?) of the Redskins as they have in nearly two decades.

I think we're absolutely in the right direction, but we've been in the right direction a couple of times in recent years only to come crashing down again.

I'm sure within two weeks, something will be written about something Dan Snyder said or did, and we'll all go back to talking about how awful the franchise is because of him...

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=SmootSmack;807142]
Your opinion, which you are entitled to. Not naive to the fact there is TMZ like journalism at times, but there's plenty of oustanding journalism here as well (for the record, I have nothing to do with the journalism here). Which I know many would not willingly admit to, lest they think they're being uncool by liking something ESPN has to offer. Do I get a bit defensive at times? Sure, but that's largely because they're watching me...kidding, it's because having worked with four major media companies this is hands down the best I've worked with. And with CNN turning to Bill Maher for political insight...I don't hold them in such high regard[/quote]CNN used merely for the perception of journalistic standard.. Could have also used Enquirer/Wall St. Journal analogy. I swing at ESPN mostly because I remember what they were vs. what they are today, but all due respect to the WWL. From the people I know who still work there, they hold it in high regard as well.

[quote=SmootSmack]
I agree that it is low, but maybe not ridiculously low. And as I said before (becuause I know people think this is place is run by Redskins haters), others here would agree. But there a lot of factors involved, not least of which was the sports fans' impressions. [B]And most sports fans think as poorly (most poorly?) of the Redskins as they have in nearly two decades.[/B]

I think we're absolutely in the right direction, but we've been in the right direction a couple of times in recent years only to come crashing down again.

I'm sure within two weeks, something will be written about something Dan Snyder said or did, and we'll all go back to talking about how awful the franchise is because of him...[/quote]
So true as well. I hate to hear us joked about in such regard but until we regain respectability it is hard to debate our standing in the public eye.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

Sources have come to light suggesting a secret negotiation is in the works to place a "Johnny Rockets" in all ESPN cafeteria........allegedly
--TMZ

THAT should be good for #119?

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=diehard;807141]A good franchise is a profitable one...[/quote]

I'd say that if I was the owner or stock holder.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=diehard;807141]A good franchise is a profitable one...[/quote]

..........???How so?

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=Paintrain;807136][B]First of all LOVE the A Few Good Men reference.[/B] I am tempted to stop slacking off of work to be on a message board to slack off of work and fire up Crackle to watch a few scenes.

That being said, I see your ESPN and raise you NFL Network. Not to spit at the Golden Goose that keeps the lights on in Smack-ville but they take the 'E' in ESPN to the extreme to where I don't consider that journalism anymore, it's more TMZ than CNN.

On topic, I think that's ridiculously low and I'm a little tired of being a national punching bag but coming off of the Cerrato years with McNabb/Haynesworth stench still floating around we need a strong 2011 and a great 2012 to move the needle on public perception.[/quote]

I'm very disappointed. I thought Smoot was quoting Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

As for TMZ vs CNN. It's still very far from that. PFT is much closer to TMZ then ESPN. I just wish they would show more hockey but they can't for obvious reasons. The SEC homerism could be toned down a tad :D

Still CNN isn't even CNN anymore. Riots going on in Vancouver, they show a rerun of Anderson Copper. Fox News Glenn Beck rerun. HLN JLo. Like really?

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

I never would have imagined one of the best money making team franchise would be the definition of worst franchise.

So it's safe to think....

$$$ = worst franchise.

I really wonder how they feel about the Bills, Bengals, Raiders, Jaguars, Panthers, a few basket ball teams like the Wizards, maybe a few hockey teams and lets not forget the Nats. Aren't they supposedly losing money every year?

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

I feel like this list is the top 100. Yea we haven't been a well run franchise for some time now, spending so much money, accomplishing nothing, and being in a position with very little young talent on our team due to trading away draft picks. We also have coach/player drama. But there is no way we are the second worst run franchise. Not even in the NFL. I defer to the bills who haven't had a winning season in the 7 years I've followed football and don't look like they will anytime soon.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

If I use "bang for the buck, players, fan relations, affordability, stadium experience, ownership, title track, and coaching" to measure the Redskins I would be hard pressed not to place them at the bottom of the pile.

Don't fool yourselves die-hard Skins fans...they stink in pretty much all those areas.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=saden1;807252]If I use "bang for the buck, players, fan relations, affordability, stadium experience, ownership, title track, and coaching" to measure the Redskins I would be hard pressed not to place them at the bottom of the pile.

Don't fool yourselves die-hard Skins fans...they stink in pretty much all those areas.[/quote]

I agree with most of those sentaments, except for stadium experience. I think fed ex field is great and kicks the shit outta watching the game at home. The only times when the experience isnt as good is when we are getting blown out.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

There are at least a dozen or so pro franchises in much worse shape than the Skins. Having them next to last is ridiculous.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

i honestly don't know enough about other sports franchises to know exactly where we should fall, but like sportscrumudgen said i do beleive we are in the bottom 25%. especially when you look at the past 10 years. all we have done is spend with no results, and not until recently have they made any attempts to make watching a game at fedex enjoyable. while i don't see how we are the second worse franchise in sports i could easily see us in the bottom 10 or 15.


on a side note it does get rather annoying when people bring up the championships that were won nearly two decades ago. i understand that we have won them and it's a great accomplishment, but is there even one person who was a part of those teams still with the redskins in any capacity? i can see where you can say we have more than other teams, but to keep going back to them as an example of how great this franchise once was just shows how far it has fallen. i would much rather claim a nfc east title that we have won in the past year or two rather than go back to the early 90's to claim an old superbowl victory.

Nothing wrong with bringing up past championships, they will always be on the team's resume and are the ultimate goal for every team. Are we supposed to pretend they didn't happen?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

not saying that at all, maybe it's cause i'm under 30 and was here for the superbowls but wasn't really if you know what i mean. god forbid we are still in the same place in another 5 or 10 years, do we still do the superbowl scoreboard then too. i'm not trying to make less of the superbowls in any way, but it seems like when they are brought up all is does is make the redskins of now look that much worse. at least thats the way i see it, and i feel like the team is starting to see it the same way by not bringing the trophies to press conferences anymore. but in no way am i trying to take anything way from those superbowl victories and championships.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

All things considered, we did make the playoffs in 2005 and 2007. We have had some moderate success; it's just the last two seasons have been really hard. 2009 and 2010 were tough, but...come on.

The Jacksonville Jaguars can't fill their stadium (and they tend to win more). The Panthers have done jacksquat and went 2-14. That's to say nothing of the dozens of other sports teams out there that do worse financially and do far for their community.

I mean yeah, Snyder hasn't been the best owner in the world by any means. But the Redskins still do a lot of charity events, players visit local area schools, they feed the needy during Thanksgiving.

The players and the fans do have a mostly good repoire; the fans love the players (except for the lazy and overpaid ones) and the players love the fans (except the ones that boot hem when they make a mistake).

Our head coach may have had a spat with two big time players (one who he traded for, which was his fault, one who he inherited, which wasn't), but he also managed to bring in a lot of young guys and fresh talent. He turned one move in the first round of the draft in 12 players, and seven players have a pretty realistic chance of making the team. The one offseason signing he made, O.J Atogwe, was pretty good; it was fair deal, Atogwe is still relatively young, and beneficial for both sides, after years of over spending. And despite our overall cruddiness, the Redskins still sell a crap ton of merchandise and tickets, even though feelings on Fed Ex are mixed.

By every metric, there is no way we are 121 out of 122 amongst sports franchises. Bottom half? Sure. I can deal with that.

But worse than the Panthers? Worse than the Bengals? The Raiders have one good season and they're better all the sudden? Worse than the Clippers, worse than some MLB and NHL teams? No fuggin' way.

That's bull, and everyone that feels like that way deserves be told it's bull, and I'm not saying that because I'm a homer.

Bringing up the fact the team has 3 SB wins as part of it's overall history makes us look bad? Guess I'm just not getting what you're saying.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

Well it's just that how often can you say we won 3 Super Bowls within 10 years to talk about the state of the team today when the last SB was nearly 20 years ago.

I didn't have anything to do with this survey, but I wonder (and I guess I could just ask) how much of it was related to expectation vs. result. Meaning ownership has invested so much in the team for little return, while the Jaguars (for example) have put not so much into the team so what they've gotten out of it is somewhat comparable to what they're putting in. I'm probably not explaining it exactly right.

I guess I just don't get the notion that recent failure means you can't acknowledge past success. They both go hand in hand when talking about the overall history of the team. I know I'm getting a little away from the original topic. As far as the state of the team right now I agree it's bad, but 2nd to last is still too low.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=Mattyk;807272]There are at least a dozen or so pro franchises in much worse shape than the Skins. Having them next to last is ridiculous.[/quote]

I blame George Bodenheimer aka Smootsmack.

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=Mattyk;807324]I guess I just don't get the notion that recent failure means you can't acknowledge past success. They both go hand in hand when talking about the overall history of the team. I know I'm getting a little away from the original topic. As far as the state of the team right now I agree it's bad, but 2nd to last is still too low.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

I agree, except I don't think this survey was about the history of the team.

And yes I agree that 2nd to last is too low

Re: ESPN the Magazine ranks the best & worst franchises in america. Redskins ranked 121 out of 122.
 

[quote=Mattyk;807324]I guess I just don't get the notion that recent failure means you can't acknowledge past success. They both go hand in hand when talking about the overall history of the team. I know I'm getting a little away from the original topic. As far as the state of the team right now I agree it's bad, but 2nd to last is still too low.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

not saying don't acknowledge it, just saying that when polls or things come out now about the current team everyone likes to say well we won back in the day, me included, i just feel it's getting old. we need something relevant to counter with hopefully it's coming soon.

and 2nd to last is a joke your completely right there, i can see being in the bottom 15 or so, but 2nd to last is ruhtarded, especially given the recent changes made. we may have only won 6 games last year, but i'll take 6 over 4 any day of the week. espescially with all new coaches and a new qb, and all the other crap we had going on. then you add in our draft, which i think could be the best in a long while, i just don't get it. if this poll was done after zorn's last year i can see bottom 5 maybe but still not 2nd to last