Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[B]If what I am hearing is correct[/B], Asante Samuel can be had in a trade very quickly.

OK, you are the Skins' GM and you have already ascertained that you can afford Samuel under the salary cap since you would trade for him and assume the terms of that deal.

Two questions:
[INDENT]1. Do you try to persuade Mike Shanahan/Jim Haslett that it is worth acquiring him?

2. What price are you willing to pay Philly for Samuel?[/INDENT]

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;818619][B]If what I am hearing is correct[/B], Asante Samuel can be had in a trade very quickly.

OK, you are the Skins' GM and you have already ascertained that you can afford Samuel under the salary cap since you would trade for him and assume the terms of that deal.

Two questions:
[INDENT]1. Do you try to persuade Mike Shanahan/Jim Haslett that it is worth acquiring him?

2. What price are you willing to pay Philly for Samuel?[/INDENT][/quote]

Well if I'm the GM and I've ascertained all that you've written, my next step is to ask the coach if he wants him. Then when Mike Shanahan says no, we're good at cornerback and I don't feel like giving up whatever crazy amount Phillly wants for him, I say ok, back to my daily routine.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

I'd rather get Hayden.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

There is no way I would try to trade for Samuel, we already have a player who takes risks in Hall. We do not need another player that does exactly same thing on other side..

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

If the Eagles were to trade another player to us, there are two scenarios:


1.) Player is no longer effective/valuable/worth contract and they have replaced his roster spot with an upgrade already (true)

2.) If the player is still useful, they will demand a high price tag from us, most likely in the form of high draft picks. In no way would they allow themselves to be on the losing end of the deal to a division rival.

Conclusion: Do not deal with the Eagles [B]again[/B] under any circumstances. Samuel is on the downside of his career and the conditions are similar to the McNabb deal. Samuel has gone from #1 to #3 on the depth chart quickly and has been replaced another more-talented vet and a younger up-and-coming player who are both better at this point in their careers.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

I don't see it. Maybe a year from now, we'll find we're a cornerback short and should have traded for Samuel.

He's probably worth Ryan Torain + a 3rd round pick to us, but I'm not sure it would even make sense for Philly to do that. They've gone this far to improve their pass and pass defense units, I don't see them weakening their pass coverage to add a power complement to Shady McCoy.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

No way...build a stable of CBs who will cover, not those who sacrifice coverage for maybe getting an INT. Samuel is old and has no upside so total pass.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;818619][B]If what I am hearing is correct[/B], Asante Samuel can be had in a trade very quickly.

OK, you are the Skins' GM and you have already ascertained that you can afford Samuel under the salary cap since you would trade for him and assume the terms of that deal.

Two questions:
[INDENT]1. Do you try to persuade Mike Shanahan/Jim Haslett that it is worth acquiring him?

2. What price are you willing to pay Philly for Samuel?[/INDENT][/quote]

Easy answers here. No and Nothing. Plain and simple here... we are not going to win this year. I hate to say it, but it's evident, it's not going to happen. Yes he is on the block, but Philly will not give him up easily. I don't want to mortgage our future on a 30 year old DB who tackles about as well as Los catches.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Monkeydad;818625]If the Eagles were to trade another player to us, there are two scenarios:


1.) Player is no longer effective/valuable/worth contract and they have replaced his roster spot with an upgrade already (true)

2.) If the player is still useful, they will demand a high price tag from us, most likely in the form of high draft picks. In no way would they allow themselves to be on the losing end of the deal to a division rival.

[B]Conclusion: Do not deal with the Eagles again under any circumstances. Samuel is on the downside of his career and the conditions are similar to the McNabb deal. Samuel has gone from #1 to #3 on the depth chart quickly and has been replaced by two younger players who are better at this point in their careers[/B].[/quote]

Yeah if we trade for Samuels were helping the eagles. Never help the eagles.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;818626]I don't see it. Maybe a year from now, we'll find we're a cornerback short and should have traded for Samuel.
[B]
He's probably worth Ryan Torain + a 3rd round pick to us[/B], but I'm not sure it would even make sense for Philly to do that. They've gone this far to improve their pass and pass defense units, I don't see them weakening their pass coverage to add a power complement to Shady McCoy.[/quote]

Hellllllllllllllllllll no.

Our starting RB who is younger (24 YO)...and a 3rd? That's getting raked over the coals as badly as the McNabb deal...actually worse since we'd be losing an effective player as well as a higher-round draft pick.

When CBs get up in age and their speed begins to go, their usefulness plummets very quickly.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

If I were the Jets, Cardinals, Browns, Panthers, or Ravens GM then Yes I would trade for him. Skins have a young corner named Josh Wilson who had a 48% completion percentage. Meaning if a QB threw at him 100 times he'd only allow 48 catches. Very good numbers, plus he's young and hungry to play in another aggressive defense.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

I'd pass.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

If Philly were giving him away, sure. But likely we can't pay the price without hurting ourselves elsewhere.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Monkeydad;818632]Hellllllllllllllllllll no.

Our starting RB who is younger (24 YO)...and a 3rd? That's getting raked over the coals as badly as the McNabb deal...actually worse since we'd be losing an effective player as well as a higher-round draft pick.

When CBs get up in age and their speed begins to go, their usefulness plummets very quickly.[/quote]Well, first, I think Torain is in that "traded because he won't make the team" category along with Holliday and Jarmon.

And the third round pick, yeah, you'd probably be best off holding onto those. Unless you're buying low on Asante Samuel and weakening the Eagles in the process. The McNabb trade was bad because, among many other reasons, we were solving a major intangible logjam at the QB position for the Eagles, helping them both get better in the short term and move on from McNabb as a depth chart obstruction.

But Samuel isn't a depth chart obstruction. He's a second corner on a team with super bowl aspirations and two no. 1 corners. He'd also fit our scheme really well.

Also, with three years on his contract, it's not like giving up a second round pick for the last two years of an aging Jason Taylor's contract when the team didn't actually have cap room. It's about finding the right price. A runner who is useless to us and a third round pick seems like a good price for a guy who would be our no. 1 CB.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

It should also be said that Torain and a third is as high as I'd be willing to go. Any good trade negotiation would hopefully begin a lot lower than that.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

No samuel is getting older

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=musicmaster45;818653]No samuel is getting older[/quote]

I think - - I would need time to verify this to be sure - - that each and every player on the Skins roster is also getting older. That phenomenon might actually apply to the entire NFL. [/sarcasm]

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

Pass... rather sign Hayden

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

I'd rather send a pick to Kansas City for Brandon Carr

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;818649]Well, first, I think Torain is in that "traded because he won't make the team" category along with Holliday and Jarmon.

And the third round pick, yeah, you'd probably be best off holding onto those. Unless you're buying low on Asante Samuel and weakening the Eagles in the process. The McNabb trade was bad because, among many other reasons, we were solving a major intangible logjam at the QB position for the Eagles, helping them both get better in the short term and move on from McNabb as a depth chart obstruction.

But Samuel isn't a depth chart obstruction. He's a second corner on a team with super bowl aspirations and two no. 1 corners. He'd also fit our scheme really well.

Also, with three years on his contract, it's not like giving up a second round pick for the last two years of an aging Jason Taylor's contract when the team didn't actually have cap room. It's about finding the right price. [B]A runner who is useless to us[/B] and a third round pick seems like a good price for a guy who would be our no. 1 CB.[/quote]

Now come on, isn't that selling Torain a bit short? I know he's not the greatest all around back, considering he's not great at pass blocking and he doesn't play ST, but he does have some ability as a runner.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

nope

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

And Vinny says ...

Next year's first and Orakpo! We are just a corner away!!

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=mooby;818664]Now come on, isn't that selling Torain a bit short? I know he's not the greatest all around back, considering he's not great at pass blocking and he doesn't play ST, but he does have some ability as a runner.[/quote]Not really. The day we admit we can't do better than Ryan Torain (easily and cheaply) would be the day we give up the idea of being a rush-first football team.

Not to mention we just traded for Hightower two days ago.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=SmootSmack;818663]I'd rather send a pick to Kansas City for Brandon Carr[/quote]Well, I would too, for both reasons relating to personal values and player values. He's probably a better player than Samuel as well.

But I wouldn't think a 2012 third rounder would net us a no. 1 CB who is just 26.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;818672]Not really. [B]The day we admit we can't do better than Ryan Torain (easily and cheaply)[/B] would be the day we give up the idea of being a rush-first football team.

Not to mention we just traded for Hightower two days ago.[/quote]

Whoa now I'm not saying we can't do better than Torain, as that's far from the truth. Hightower might even beat out Torain, and if that's the case, we could end up seeing us trade Torain since the combo of Hightower and Helu might be all we need. But Hightower does have a case of the fumblitis that needs to be resolved. All I'm saying is Torain is a decent running back. But you are right that in this day and age, that might not be enough to warrant a spot on the team. Especially when he's injury prone.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;818672]Not really. The day we admit we can't do better than Ryan Torain (easily and cheaply) would be the day we give up the idea of being a rush-first football team.

Not to mention we just traded for Hightower two days ago.[/quote]

:doh:

Have you even watched a Redskins game in the past year?

[yt]Q7o7ZlppSiU[/yt]

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Monkeydad;818681]:doh:

Have you even watched a Redskins game in the past year?[/quote]

You know, I think Tripp may have watched a game or two last year, maybe some tape, perhaps broke down film, maybe did a write up somewhere ...

Perhaps I'm thinking of someone else.

:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

(Sorry, the facepalming is starting to annoy me, so I thought I'd strike back).

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=Monkeydad;818681]:doh:

Have you even watched a Redskins game in the past year?

[/quote]Yay for youtube clips of fringe roster players!

Can I get a Kory Lichtensteiger highlight reel? Dirtbag? Anyone?

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

If I were the GM, the first order of business would for me to hire Dirtbag59 to head up the film/video department.



...oh, this is about a crappy Eagle. Nope, I'd pass. Too much money and it would require giving out draft picks which I loathe doing.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=mooby;818680]Whoa now I'm not saying we can't do better than Torain, as that's far from the truth. Hightower might even beat out Torain, and if that's the case, we could end up seeing us trade Torain since the combo of Hightower and Helu might be all we need. But Hightower does have a case of the fumblitis that needs to be resolved. All I'm saying is Torain is a decent running back. But you are right that in this day and age, that might not be enough to warrant a spot on the team. Especially when he's injury prone.[/quote]I don't know if I'd disagree with the assessment that Torain is or can be a decent running back. He just is very limited by his inability to consistently go forward and turn the outside stretches into long TD runs.

He can move the chains for an NFL offense, which is valuable, but probably not worth a roster spot unless he can add value on special teams or by pass blocking.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;818685]Yay for youtube clips of fringe roster players!

Can I get a Kory Lichtensteiger highlight reel? Dirtbag? Anyone?[/quote]

No, but I have my old Devin Thomas reel, will that do?

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;818697]No, but I have my old Devin Thomas reel, will that do?[/quote]We're really stretching the concept of a fringe roster player to include guys who don't know how to line up in a legal football formation...but I'd approve. Let's go for it.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

OK folks, after a couple dozen replies here, let me explain why I started this thread in the first place...


1. Given the lack of love shown here for Carlos Rogers, I wondered how enthusiastic folks might be to acquire a Pro Bowl caliber CB to play in his place.

2. Given the cries of anguish here when the Skins' defense ranked 30th in the league last year - - or was it 31st - - I wondered how much an upgrade at CB might appeal to folks here.


I[B] purposely did not include what the Eagles might be seeking in such a trade [/B]- - even though there is plenty of "scuttlebutt" around on that front to see what folks here might want to offer if they wanted to offer anything at all.


I find it interesting that some folks said that they never want to deal with the Eagles again because the Eagles fleeced the Redskins on the McNabb deal last year. Excuse me, but that paints the entire Redskins organization as a bunch of rubes who cannot be trusted to deal with the vastly superior folks who run the Philly franchise. With that attitude, I doubt many of you would be invited to Bruce Allen's house for a BBQ anytime soon...

I was also surprised as to the degree to which people placed emphasis on young players here. Frankly, I agree with that emphasis especially since the Redskins have emphasized exactly the opposite for at least the last 10 years. Nevertheless, it seems a bit harsh to pass entirely on a Pro Bowl level player just because you might have to part with a player who might be younger. For the record, Asante Samuel is 8 months older than John Beck...

Here is the reason - - I suspect - - that no one here would want to pursue this deal in reality. The biggest offer anyone came up with was "Torrain and a 3rd round pick" (and that offer sent shivers down several posters' spines). The "scuttlebutt" is that the Eagles want more than that. If the "sculltebutt" is correct, they actually want something that the Redskins do not have to offer so everyone is safe here...

Supposedly, the Eagles want to trade Samuel for a starting right tackle to protect Vick's blind side. The Skins do not have anyone at RT that would fit the profile the Eagles are looking for so do not lose any sleep over the possibility of this kind of deal going down - - unless it becomes a 3-way swap.

Thanks for the responses. I enjoyed seeing how the folks here looked at this "opportunity".

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=sportscurmudgeon;818700]Here is the reason - - I suspect - - that no one here would want to pursue this deal in reality. The biggest offer anyone came up with was "Torrain and a 3rd round pick" (and that offer sent shivers down several posters' spines). The "scuttlebutt" is that the Eagles want more than that. If the "sculltebutt" is correct, they actually want something that the Redskins do not have to offer so everyone is safe here...[/quote]And even that suggestion is only meant to answer the question "what is he worth to us" not "should we actually want to acquire him".

If you consider that the Redskins are a non-contender in 2011, then obviously, no, trading picks for players is a bad strategy. Hence why I didn't like the Hightower trade as much as others.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;818690]I don't know if I'd disagree with the assessment that Torain is or can be a decent running back. He just is very limited by his inability to consistently go forward and turn the outside stretches into long TD runs.

He can move the chains for an NFL offense, which is valuable, but probably not worth a roster spot unless he can add value on special teams or by pass blocking.[/QUOTE]

I don't know. I know you bang on Torrain as no great shakes and, I agree, he certainly seems to lack one or both of (a) break away speed or (b) downfield vision in that he doesn't seem to break many long runs. At the same time, he does consistently move the chains and seems to make the right choices at the line of scrimmage often enough to make consistent pick ups. He seems to make consistent gains even in 8 man fronts (I differ to you on this b/c I am just working on memory).

I think you underrate the value of "moving the chains" particularly in a rush-centric offense. If ATV can stay on the field and consistently "move the chains", he will be our starting back. After all, isn't that exactly what Olandis Gary and M. Anderson did for him in Denver?

Move the chains, rack up yards and clear the way for the passing game. ATV is not the second coming of B. Sanders but, if he stays healthy, I am betting he is the starter through the year with the only caveat being that Helu may be exactly the same as ATV but with speed and vision. In which case, Helu takes over somewhere down the line.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

If, hypothetically, a team had a replacement level offensive line, and a replacement level passing game, you probably would have no better option on offense than to hand Ryan Torain the ball and hope that he gets hot and rips off a couple of 12-17 yard gains in a row moving the ball downfield.

So I'm probably underrating Torrain's effect on the [B]2010 Washington Redskins[/B] by valuing his skill set to an average offense that can throw the ball a little bit and has other runners with breakaway speed who make better cuts. You could argue the Redskins didn't have those options in 2010. I'd like to think I am doing it this way because I am being forward thinking. Perhaps I'm just being abstract for the sake of abstract, which is where people have their issue with my assessment of him.

My whole thing is if we carry that logic forward to include the 2011 Redskins, where Torain is still the best option on the offense to move the chains, there would be a good chance the offense has gone backwards and that the offensive coaches are getting fired after the year.

In the most blunt of terms, I don't think a world where Ryan Torain is a valuable chain-mover (despite his other faults) is a world that Redskins should want to live in. It just means you have no other options by which to achieve yards and points, so you use a boom or bust runner who's busts tend to end drives and booms tend not to break 20 yards. It's like bringing a 1970's offense to the modern day.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

i'd trade for osi before i would samuels.he's worth a 3rd rounder,not a first.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=tomsawyer;818724]i'd trade for osi before i would samuels.he's worth a 3rd rounder,not a first.[/quote]

Osi is not suitable for a 3-4 and is becoming injury-prone in his age. Plus, he wants a new contract from his new team, so we'd be paying too much to get him, then paying too much again to keep him.

Agreed, not worth a first for Osi.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

[quote=GTripp0012;818714]If, hypothetically, a team had a replacement level offensive line, and a replacement level passing game, you probably would have no better option on offense than to hand Ryan Torain the ball and hope that he gets hot and rips off a couple of 12-17 yard gains in a row moving the ball downfield.

So I'm probably underrating Torrain's effect on the [B]2010 Washington Redskins[/B] by valuing his skill set to an average offense that can throw the ball a little bit and has other runners with breakaway speed who make better cuts. You could argue the Redskins didn't have those options in 2010. I'd like to think I am doing it this way because I am being forward thinking. Perhaps I'm just being abstract for the sake of abstract, which is where people have their issue with my assessment of him.

My whole thing is if we carry that logic forward to include the 2011 Redskins, where Torain is still the best option on the offense to move the chains, there would be a good chance the offense has gone backwards and that the offensive coaches are getting fired after the year.

In the most blunt of terms, I don't think a world where Ryan Torain is a valuable chain-mover (despite his other faults) is a world that Redskins should want to live in. It just means you have no other options by which to achieve yards and points, so you use a boom or bust runner who's busts tend to end drives and booms tend not to break 20 yards. It's like bringing a 1970's offense to the modern day.[/quote]

Wow, you really like to hear yourself type, don't you? :D

You are blatantly undervaluing and underestimating Torain. When healthy, he's an explosive runner who is capable of being a Top 15-20 RB in the league. Yes, I just said that. He's a young player, only 24. If he can overcome his early injury troubles and remain on the field for a few years, he'll be as valuable as Portis was for us.

Hightower was not brought here to be a #1 back. He has never held that role before and is not expected to here. He'll likely be a 3rd-down back because of his red zone success and his pass blocking abilities. With the loss or Portis, we needed a new RB who could block when needed. Hightower should fill that role on passing downs. Keiland Williams at FB should also help in that duty.

A Torain/Helu tandem is too valuable to break up for an aging cornerback. If we were to rely on a rookie and a timeshare back going foward, that's risky. Depth at RB, an injury-prone position is more important than acquiring a big name CB who would be marginally-better than other options like Grimes or even Wilson who we already have...without the risk of making a division rival stronger, again.

Also, you claim that the running game is some ancient form of play that has become obsolete...yet teams with strong running games like Baltimore, the Jets, Kansas City, Eagles, Giants and Texans are some of the stronger teams in the league. Even the Patriots ranked higher in rushing (9th) than passing (11th) last year. Rushing teams are not weak, outdated teams destined to failure as you claim.
[URL="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byteam?group=Offense&cat=Rankings&conference=NFL&year=season_2010&sort=523&timeframe="]NFL - Statistics by Team - Yahoo! Sports[/URL]

You promote yourself as the "film expert" of the forum, yet you can't watch Ryan Torain and see his potential and the impact he already makes on our offense? Yes, his health is a question mark, but if he can stay on the field, he's a valuable weapon for us.

Also, we'd be facing a Vick/McCoy/Torain 3-headed monster twice a year and in the playoffs if we make it...an old Asante Samuel won't have much of a role in stopping that freight train.

Simply stated, the trade you proposed would do FAR more to improve the Eagles than us.

Re: Pretend you are the Skins' GM...
 

No thankyou.