Creative route running for WRs
 

Since this went unanswered in another forum, I thought I'd bring it up again in a new thread.

Here's something that baffles me. Why doesn't Gibbs' playbook feature any creative route running (especially cross-routes) for the WRs? Brandon Stokely doesn't exactly have blazing speed, but how many times have you seen him catch TDs completely untouched, with no DBs within 10 yards of him? Surely his speed is not what's causing the separation. The separation is only attributable to creative route running, or Peyton being a shifty-eyed mofo and conning the DBs, or both.

Why can't we incorporate this into our offense? Someone please enlighten us. I suppose for starters, we have to beef up the O-line so that we don't have to block with 8, and this would release an additional receiver that would contribute to more of a downfield threat.

You said it yourself right there at the end.

Until we beef up the line so we can get consistently solid pass protection, it doesn't matter how creative your offense is.

A lot of the Colts and G-Bay's offense is about Peyton they and Favre make there players better and you see once they leave there not that good "Bill Schroeder". Those two qbs are so good they really get the dbs and safeties thinking that he cant throw that ball into that spot. O-Line is really the importance I knew G-Bay's was good but I did not know that the Colts was that goood except for J. Saturday and T. Glenn. Only time will tell with this team the talent is here we just need to execute better. I pray to the football gods that next year we can be in the playoffs making a run at a championship.

Matty, I agree and disagree about the protection. Manning seemingly has all day to throw, but I saw something on NFL Network a couple of weeks ago that like 65% of his throws are gone in less than 3 seconds. Granted the shotgun skews that number a little, but you don't have to have all day to throw the ball down the field.

The routes have to be more imaginative. Having one player run deep doesn't challenge the DB's. Having 2 players run deep into the same area (how many times did we see that this year) doesn't challenge the defense either. The ball needs to be thrown 10-15 yds at least on most plays. Throwing hitches and screens are ways to beat the defense for yds between the 30's but you have to get it down the field on better patterns in order to put points up.

I don't know that I saw any of our receivers do a double move at all this year. Everything is down and out, down and curl. Did we throw a post pattern at all this season? Is Royal only a viable receiver in the red zone? The guy is huge, he needs to be a target in the middle of the field.

Also, what happened to the RB screen? I can't recall us running many, if any, this year. Portis has good hands usually and can motor once in space. The Packers, Colts and Pats all use the screen as 'an extension of the running game' (I know, I hate that too) and get big plays occasionally. Hell, the [b][i]Giants[/b][/i] got at least 5-6 big plays on screens this year alone!

I don't think a complete overhaul of the playbook is neccessary, but at least update it to the late 90's!

Our line has been bad but you can't use that as an excuse not the throw the ball downfield. I'd rather have some 20 to 30 yard completions and an occasiton 5 yard loss from a sack than what we are doing right now. Our routes a pretty discouraging too. We don't do and crosing routes or deep slants. I just don't get our offense. Correct me if i'm wrong but I thought Gibbs use the throw the ball way down field.

[QUOTE=skins009]Our line has been bad but you can't use that as an excuse not the throw the ball downfield. I'd rather have some 20 to 30 yard completions and an occasiton 5 yard loss from a sack than what we are doing right now. Our routes a pretty discouraging too. We don't do and crosing routes or deep slants. I just don't get our offense. Correct me if i'm wrong but I thought Gibbs use the throw the ball way down field.[/QUOTE]

While on that theme, I've never seen Ramsey throw a slant. Or, for that matter a fade (when we're deep in the redzone and trying to get in the endzone).

Wouldn't a double move or creative route running also lead to many more PI or Illegal Contact penelties? Therefore moving the ball for us?

Well, Stokley is interesting because he has Wayne and Harrison on the outside. Basically, what you see, is Stokely mostly matched up against a nickel back or a safety in one-on-one situations, and he is a good enough route-runner (and does have good speed) to get pretty open.

Also, what you have to understand with Indy, is that they have a consistent running attack.

I think it has very little to do with the actual routes that are drawn up. There are about five-six basic routes in football, the context and personnel are what make the difference.

[QUOTE=Drift Reality]Well, Stokley is interesting because he has Wayne and Harrison on the outside. Basically, what you see, is Stokely mostly matched up against a nickel back or a safety in one-on-one situations, and he is a good enough route-runner (and does have good speed) to get pretty open.

Also, what you have to understand with Indy, is that they have a consistent running attack.

I think it has very little to do with the actual routes that are drawn up. There are about five-six basic routes in football, the context and personnel are what make the difference.[/QUOTE]


I agree Drift. Good post.

Drift: Indy is able to open up their running attack thanks to a phenominal passing attack. If you see 8in the box to stop James, you see a pass. I feel most of the Colts success comes from Peyton. They give him 3 plays and let him call whichever one at the line of scrimmage. When it looks like they want to stop the run, he tosses it. His ability to read defenses and aubible quickly makes that offense work.

Isn't Indys O-Coordinator like 70 years old?

[QUOTE=Redskins_P]Isn't Indys O-Coordinator like 70 years old?[/QUOTE]
yeah something like that, chalk one up for the old guys

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]yeah something like that, chalk one up for the old guys[/QUOTE]


yeah I guess these old guys can't adapt to todays NFL!

On Monday Night Football, Al Michaels interviewed Manning about his record breaking touchdown throw to Stokely. Manning said that the play was not designed, and that in the huddle, Manning ordered Stokely to fake the post and run the deep-in pattern. They had thrown several hitches to Reggie Wayne throughout the game, and the safety bit hard when Wayne ran yet another short hitch route. That opened up Stokely leaving only the other safety who got caught heading toward the corner of the endzone thinking it was a post pattern.

Gibbs once said back in his first stint with the Skins, that he didn't like the West Coast styled slant pattern because that often exposed the wideouts to devastating hits across the middle.

Gibbs called several wide receiver screens this year, and other than the first Dallas game, rarely called for bombs to WRs on the fly. From what I saw, and I watched practically every offensive play this year, screens to the running back were virtually non-existant. There might have been one or two slant patterns, but that's about it.

Another pattern I rarely saw was basic deep-in and deep-out routes. Same for the crossing patterns too.

We also have to consider though, that these routes may well have been in the game plan, it's just that this year, our quarterbacks simply didn't complete them, or our wide receivers weren't able to get open.

My personal belief is that Gibbs was really just trying to keep Ramsey from self-destructing, so he put together this crap offense just for the year. I think in Gibb's master plan Ramsey would not be playing for 2 years or so. I think now that the year is basically over, he'll work with Ramsey all offseason and install the real Gibbs offense for next year. Plus i truly believe that with a year under Joe Bugel, Jon Jansen coming back and a new center I think our offensive line will be very solid.

[QUOTE=Daseal]Wouldn't a double move or creative route running also lead to many more PI or Illegal Contact penelties? Therefore moving the ball for us?[/QUOTE]


Absolutly! I said it in a couple of post's about crossing routes, that's how Coles was used in NY, I don't see any creativity with Gibb's, team's know our pass routes by heart they all know where our reciever's are going and the routes are easy to cover, I am not a big Brunell fan even before we signed him but not even Brunell is as bad as he looked in this offense, Martz hold's his team hostage with his QB, well Gibb's hold's his QB's hostage with his offense.

[QUOTE=skins009]My personal belief is that Gibbs was really just trying to keep Ramsey from self-destructing, so he put together this crap offense just for the year. I think in Gibb's master plan Ramsey would not be playing for 2 years or so. I think now that the year is basically over, he'll work with Ramsey all offseason and install the real Gibbs offense for next year. Plus i truly believe that with a year under Joe Bugel, Jon Jansen coming back and a new center I think our offensive line will be very solid.[/QUOTE]


If that's the case Ramsey will be looking at retirement before he can run this offense, I understand that a QB takes time to learn a system but if Gibb's system takes 3 year's to learn what happen's if there's an injury? Or with free agency you lose your backup? This is a game, were not splitting the atom here, there is no reason why we aren't better than we are, where is the progress? We are going backward's not forward's, Gibb's treat's the offense as if the world is going to end on the next turnover, Bottom line not throwing downfield this year is downright border's on stupidity team's are racking up big play after big play because of the new rules, as well as penalty after penalty, and Gibb's coaches as if there are 15 player's in the defensive secondary.

[QUOTE=offiss]If that's the case Ramsey will be looking at retirement before he can run this offense, I understand that a QB takes time to learn a system but if Gibb's system takes 3 year's to learn what happen's if there's an injury? Or with free agency you lose your backup? This is a game, were not splitting the atom here, there is no reason why we aren't better than we are, where is the progress? We are going backward's not forward's, Gibb's treat's the offense as if the world is going to end on the next turnover, Bottom line not throwing downfield this year is downright border's on stupidity team's are racking up big play after big play because of the new rules, as well as penalty after penalty, and Gibb's coaches as if there are 15 player's in the defensive secondary.[/QUOTE]
Hey man I agree with everything you just said. I'm just confused because I don't understand how a coach can go from throwing the ball way downfield in his first tenure, to what we have not. It just doesn't make sense to me.

It has been said there are three things which can happen when you pass the ball and only one of those is good . The Vertical passing game works if you have established or outstanding WR or QB or both andand excellent QB-receiver relationship. Without it you end up with bloody mess of QB, we saw it last year and why do people think it would be any different now .

The run first attitude means yes you will have 8-9 men in the box to stop the run but surely that is better than them sending 9 or even 10 blitzers as happened last year because they had no resepect for the pass or the run.

You mean like the Mushin Muhammad Jake Delhomme hook up going downfield constantly? Mushin Muhammad thought to be too old and too slow to be a productive receiver and jake delhomme as himself. How about rookie WR and sophmore QB in Roy Williams and Joey Harrington. They've hooked up for numerous big plays this year (granted Roy Williams in my opinion is the best receiver out of college since Moss.)

You can argue every team has an outstanding #1 WR. Some have more. Only teams without one are Atlanta, Kansas City, Baltimore, Chargers, Chicago, Tampa Bay (clayton's looking mighty good), San Fransisco, Broncos, Browns.
Out of those teams: Atlanta, KC, Bmore, Chargers, Browns all rely on on a TE to be a critical receiver on their team. (Added the Browns because Davis was said to of formed an offense around WInslow, then he got hurt, so still yet to see)

i agree daseal, and if we want the same type of pass ability i feel we need to bring in a qb coach, and a receivers coach. We had a qb coach for Mark Rypkien the year we won the superbowl that worked on his timing and footwork. That year Mark had the best foot work in the NFL. we need to the same for Ramsey. If u didn't know Ramsey is said to be just as smart as Manning, infact I do believe he trains with manning family in New Orleans during the offseason. I also think we should try to get a wr coach like the guy who went to the dolphins from the cardinals, he made Boldin, and Boston into threats with their footwork, he could do the same for our recievers.

Ramsey should train with one of the recievers in the offseason to develop a chemistry

Ramsey does not need to develop chemistry with a receiver. That will have to come later.

He needs two things before "chemistry" will even matter a little bit.

First, he needs reliable protection. He does not have it now and without some major improvement on the part of the incumbents on the OL or some very judicious acquisitions on the OL, he will not have it next year. Chemistry with one of your WRs does not matter one bit when you are flat on your ass or staring at a monster coming at you unblocked.

Second, Ramsey still needs to demonstrate that he understands what he is supposed to do with the ball in various situations. He is better than he was in pre season where he looked like a deer in the headlights. He is better than he was in his first game or two as a starter when he looked like The Rain Man out there. But, he is not anywhere near the level of "mastery" of this offense. First comes "mastery" of what to do when and then comes "chemistry" with a WR.

Please don't tell me that Ramsey has it all going on. He doesn't, yet. Against a mediocre Dallas defense on Sunday he generated a total of 112 yards of offense in the first three quarters of play - including 2 INTs. Against a top flight defense that would be a "bad day at the office"; against a mediocre defense that was a "pants wetting".

One INT wasn't on Ramsey, his receiver handed it to Dallas's DB. Don't you feel that the yardage comes a lot from playcalling, Sports? I mean, he can only do what he's told. He completed a high percentage of his passes, they just didn't give him many yards.

Daseal:

Of course the playcalling affects his yardage. No one can argue with that if they have half of their brain engaged. However, here is what we won't be able to know:

Is the playcalling what it is because Gibbs is afraid to have Ramsey do anything more complicated than dinking and dunking the ball? You know Gibbs would never say that about one of his players - neither would any other good coach. But at the same time, I have trouble believing that Gibbs is calling plays he knows won't come up with big yardage just because he hasn't figured out that they won't work. MAYBE that is all that he has confidence in Ramsey to do right now.

Please remember about a week after Gibbs was hired and he and the new staff were poring over films and everyone thought that he had a magic wand he would wave over the players to make them all better than they ever were before. Gibbs said that after looking at the film of last year, he was surprised that some of the people who were starting were the ones who were starting. He said that there were some starters who needed to get better and some positions that needed upgrading.

Then the first thing he did was to go and get another QB - admittedly, the wrong one - and when you put those things together it is POSSIBLE that he thinks Ramsey still has a ton of stuff to learn and a long way to develop.

Ramsey was just plain stinkin' awful in the pre-season. If he had been an undrafted free agent and played like that they would have put a stamp on his ass and mailed him to Mongolia. After taking over as the starter, he had some terrible games and then began to show improvement. But remember what level he started from; improvement does not yet mean he is a competent journeyman NFL QB. He still has to get better to reach that level.

If he continues to develop his brain - not his arm - we may see him in a position to use the physical attributes that got him drafted first by the Skins. If he doesn't, you'll see him on the bench or in this kind of dink/dunk offense where he completes most of his pases and does not make "the disastrous mistake" that he has shown he can make with regularity in a wide-open system.

Ramsey should improve dramatically next year with an improved line in front of him and another offseason learning the system. If he doesn't then it's time to move on after next year, but I have a feeling we'll be very happy with him as our starter.