Is true democracy in the US dead?
 

Catching these GOP debates is not only eye opening in seeing how poor the GOP field is as a whole, but how the main stream media manipulates the debate/campaign season into corraling the populace into only voting for the elite approved candidates. I first noticed this in 2004, when the media ignored Dennis Kucinich and did a hatchet job with Howard Dean to promote the Establishment fav Kerry

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

You do realize how ironic your thread title is since the US has never been a "true" democracy.

Now to your point, the media has a huge role in picking candidates, and the elections, but it is mostly a chicken and the egg argument. Yes the media can manipulate within bounds, but the people pretty much set the boundaries of those debates. If, as a whole, the population felt that Kucinich or a libertarian candidate's ideals were the best then the media would move to capture those viewers' interests with stories and candidates that espouse those views.

Put another way, do you think most of our president's haven't used the media machines of their times to sway the eligible voters toward electing them? Or that the parties(however they were named at the time) didn't use media/backroom dealings to get their "elite approved candidates" elected?

I would even think that now the candidates are far less influenced by media/establishment, as voters can find information through far more sources today then, say, in 1880. But, ultimately, in a 2 party system, you will have a rising tide effect as people put their smaller issues aside and select a candidate that most closely aligns with their "life view" of politics.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

Most people embarrassingly vote for a specific letter surrounded by parenthesis. It seems they can't realize this isn't a sporting event. You don't have to root for one team.

[QUOTE=GusFrerotte;835565]Catching these GOP debates is not only eye opening in seeing how poor the GOP field is as a whole, but how the main stream media manipulates the debate/campaign season into corraling the populace into only voting for the elite approved candidates. I first noticed this in 2004, when the media ignored Dennis Kucinich and did a hatchet job with Howard Dean to promote the Establishment fav Kerry[/QUOTE]

Well first things first, the US is not a pure democracy. Its a republic.

Secondly, what you are talking about is basically a product of the two party system. If there are only two major players they are not going to put forth a candidate out of nowhere. Its going to be someone who is well connected and "popular".

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

I know we are a Republic, but our media seems to steer the populace into voting a certain way and that is what I am getting at.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

Like Dean need help.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoDONDh3MkU&feature=related]Howard Dean - YouTube[/ame]

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

Then their is old fart,


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlkxQMxJmEU&NR=1]Hillary Clinton Farts! - YouTube[/ame]

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

He actually think ther is 58 states.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws]Obama Claims He's Visited 57 States - YouTube[/url]

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=GusFrerotte;835584]I know we are a Republic, but our media seems to steer the populace into voting a certain way and that is what I am getting at.[/quote]

No, I think most people understand that in our system the liberal, or conservative, hacks aren't going to win a majority of the electoral votes, or popular vote. Most people move toward majority viewpoint, rather than an "extreme" position.

I am no media lover, but they mostly report to their largest bases, if your candidate isn't being pushed, guess what, you probably wouldn't win if this was a true democracy, as you put it.

And your thread title asking if true democracy is dead, I would answer it's more so in it's infancy. As people start getting more and more information, and respecting the norms of society less, and thinking my way must be the right way, and here is a website to prove it, we will see more and more movement toward true democracy (and for the record, that's a bad thing).

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=firstdown;835592]He actually think ther is 58 states.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpGH02DtIws"]Obama Claims He's Visited 57 States - YouTube[/URL][/quote]

was he counting territories like marshall island, guam, etc?

you can send mail first class to marshall island btw, it's state abreviation is MH.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[URL="http://youtu.be/DEbZqvMu2cQ"]Must See Hilarious George Bush Bloopers! - YouTube[/URL]

no one can top this buffoon. and we have evolved into a 2 party system. no one outside of this system stands a chance

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=dmek25;835605][URL="http://youtu.be/DEbZqvMu2cQ"]Must See Hilarious George Bush Bloopers! - YouTube[/URL]

no one can top this buffoon. and we have evolved into a 2 party system. no one outside of this system stands a chance[/quote]

You ciould have done better then that clip. That one show he has a sense of humor and is human. A buffoon thinks he has been to 57 states and has one more to visit.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

You sure Obama didn't just make a mistake? Also, you really think Bush is intellectually superior vs. Obama, haha?

Bush had his strengths, but intelligence wasn't one of them. That's why there are tons of websites, posters, etc. that have "Bush-isms". This is actually one of the few klutzy mistakes Obama has made, in terms of speeches.

If you want to criticize Obama, focus on your issues with his policies.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

The people as a whole still have freedom and the right to exercise their will but a true democracy can not be had without the absence of money bearing external forces, presence of a leveled playing field and low barrier to entry for candidate and informed citizenry.

This country and its people lack sufficient altruism required for a true democracy.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

Forefathers rolling in their graves....way too much special interest and corporate money in politics....our political system is a damn embarrassment imo...

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=saden1;835688]The people as a whole still have freedom and the right to exercise their will but a true democracy can not be had without the absence of money bearing external forces, presence of a leveled playing field and low barrier to entry for candidate and informed citizenry.

This country and its people lack sufficient altruism required for a true democracy.[/quote]

True democracy is just as dangerous, and stupid of a style of govt as any other out there. Because 50.1% of a given population support an idea, doesn't mean that idea is a good one, only that 50.1% of the population agree to do something.

The US's strength, for whatever it's worth, wasn't ever in the democratic aspect, but in the multilayered check's and balances that were put in place to prevent harm and provide a government that was: stable enough to withstand foreign influences on domestic affairs, limited in scope and power enough to allow individual freedoms, secure enough to take on debt and repay debt to enable foreign trade. As the US marches toward truer and truer democracy (defined as one person one vote on every issue) we lose many of the less obvious checks and balances the founders put there.

My personal belief is that the moving of Senate seats from state decision to democratic forces is one of the most undermining of all the constitutional amendments. I actually understand at the time it was necessary but it seems like States need to reclaim that privilege and bring back a form of State assignment of Senate seats. My rationale in a simplistic statement is this: the big money contributors that currently fund national campaigns would be forced to bring campaigns back to individual state situations. It really would be best if there could be a 2 step process of State appointment followed by voter approval, that would work to reduce backroom politics and encourage Senators who are working for their State and not for the vested national lobbiests.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=Chico23231;835691]Forefathers rolling in their graves....way too much special interest and corporate money in politics....our political system is a damn embarrassment imo...[/quote]
To whom is our political system an embarrassment?

We have a stable government that has seen power taken from the richest and over the course of 200+ years incorporated more and more people into the system. At the same time the system has allowed for an economy that thru ups and downs does not bring great instability into the political system, i.e. governments are overthrown or recalled every time the economy tanks, and no single ruler is given vast over-reaching authority when the economy booms.

Again, no government or political system is going to be ideal, and all are run by people which brings fluctuations and abuse, BUT, it is neglectful in my opinion, to be embarrassed by a system that has produced a stability of life while not creating a chaotic or dictatorial regime for 222 years.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;835698]True democracy is just as dangerous, and stupid of a style of govt as any other out there. Because 50.1% of a given population support an idea, doesn't mean that idea is a good one, only that 50.1% of the population agree to do something.

The US's strength, for whatever it's worth, wasn't ever in the democratic aspect, but in the multilayered check's and balances that were put in place to prevent harm and provide a government that was: stable enough to withstand foreign influences on domestic affairs, limited in scope and power enough to allow individual freedoms, secure enough to take on debt and repay debt to enable foreign trade. As the US marches toward truer and truer democracy (defined as one person one vote on every issue) we lose many of the less obvious checks and balances the founders put there.

My personal belief is that the moving of Senate seats from state decision to democratic forces is one of the most undermining of all the constitutional amendments. I actually understand at the time it was necessary but it seems like States need to reclaim that privilege and bring back a form of State assignment of Senate seats. My rationale in a simplistic statement is this: the big money contributors that currently fund national campaigns would be forced to bring campaigns back to individual state situations. It really would be best if there could be a 2 step process of State appointment followed by voter approval, that would work to reduce backroom politics and encourage Senators who are working for their State and not for the vested national lobbiests.[/quote]

50% + 1 is not a true democracy, it is tyranny of the majority the founders wished to avoid. A true democracy IMO is a deliberative democracy in which given multiple options the people will always choose the best option because it is the most logical and natural option. Obviously for this to work a lot of responsibility falls on the citizenry.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=hooskins;835647]You sure Obama didn't just make a mistake? Also, you really think Bush is intellectually superior vs. Obama, haha?

Bush had his strengths, but intelligence wasn't one of them. That's why there are tons of websites, posters, etc. that have "Bush-isms". This is actually one of the few klutzy mistakes Obama has made, in terms of speeches.

If you want to[B] criticize Obama, focus on your issues with his policies[/B].[/quote]


I have.

[QUOTE=saden1;835729]50% + 1 is not a true democracy, it is tyranny of the majority the founders wished to avoid. A true democracy IMO is a deliberative democracy in which given multiple options the people will always choose the best option because it is the most logical and natural option. Obviously for this to work a lot of responsibility falls on the citizenry.[/QUOTE]
So in your situation where a population deliberates the multiple options and come to the point of choosing an option, how would the vote be conducted and what would be the requirement an option being selected?

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

It makes sense. Remember when Obama posted on that tracking site the jobs he created in districts that don't exist. I'm guessing they probably are located in those other states. Its probably populated with all the dead people that voted for him. Its his fairy land run by Barney Frank.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;835734]So in your situation where a population deliberates the multiple options and come to the point of choosing an option, how would the vote be conducted and what would be the requirement an option being selected?[/quote]

You don't need to necessarily vote. The process is similar to a group meeting at work where you're making a decision by consensus.

[quote]Deliberation aims at a rationally motivated consensus: it aims to find reasons acceptable to all who are committed to such a system of decision-making. When consensus or something near enough is not possible, majoritarian decision making is used.[/quote]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliberative_democracy#Cohen.27s_outline]Deliberative democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url]

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=firstdown;835735] Its his fairy land run by Barney Frank.[/quote]

:lol:

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=saden1;835739]You don't need to necessarily vote. The process is similar to a group meeting at work where you're making a decision by consensus.



[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliberative_democracy#Cohen.27s_outline]Deliberative democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/url][/quote]

Well, let me just add a note from your quote in the link:
[quote]Deliberation aims at a rationally motivated consensus: it aims to find reasons acceptable to all who are committed to such a system of decision-making. When consensus or something near enough is not possible, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majority_rule"]majoritarian decision making[/URL] is used.[/quote]

So, when rational people debate, and cannot achieve a consensus or "something near enough" (i like that term) then it reverts to 50%+1. Since many important topics are likely not resolvable even between rationally motivated entities, your deliberative democracy falls back to 50%+1.

But beyond that, I believe we were discussing practical definitions of democracy, not a theoretical - and imo unattainable - democracy. Unlike your local vulcan council, humans have frailties, foibles, and emotional irrationalities that can bring down the best deliberative body, regardless of what country it is located in.

It would however be interesting to see how often 300million people could come to a consensus, or something "near enough".

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

That sounds similar to the theories of one my favorite political theorists. Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;835765]Well, let me just add a note from your quote in the link:


So, when rational people debate, and cannot achieve a consensus or "something near enough" (i like that term) then it reverts to 50%+1. Since many important topics are likely not resolvable even between rationally motivated entities, your deliberative democracy falls back to 50%+1.

But beyond that, I believe we were discussing practical definitions of democracy, not a theoretical - and imo unattainable - democracy. Unlike your local vulcan council, humans have frailties, foibles, and emotional irrationalities that can bring down the best deliberative body, regardless of what country it is located in.

It would however be interesting to see how often 300million people could come to a consensus, or something "near enough".[/quote]

When I was president of a local Jaycees club my board was 100% women. They could not agree on anything. Hell they would debate for an hour on what color cups to use for beer at our annual oyster roast. I'd just crack open a beer and watch them go at it for a sometime then call for a vote. Then start with a new topic and open another beer. I decide just to use that 50% +1 rule or we would have never agreed on anything.

The club I'm in now we loose interest after 10min so we can agree on stuff pretty quick.

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=firstdown;835784]When I was president of a local Jaycees club[B] my board was 100% women. They could not agree on anything.[/B] Hell they would debate for an hour on what color cups to use for beer at our annual oyster roast. I'd just crack open a beer and watch them go at it for a sometime then call for a vote. Then start with a new topic and open another beer. I decide just to use that 50% +1 rule or we would have never agreed on anything.

The club I'm in now we loose interest after 10min so we can agree on stuff pretty quick.[/quote]

Well to be fair, Saden's deliberative democracy does need [U]rational[/U] actors. LOL

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;835765]Well, let me just add a note from your quote in the link:


So, when rational people debate, and cannot achieve a consensus or "something near enough" (i like that term) then it reverts to 50%+1. Since many important topics are likely not resolvable even between rationally motivated entities, your deliberative democracy falls back to 50%+1.

But beyond that, I believe we were discussing practical definitions of democracy, not a theoretical - and imo unattainable - democracy. Unlike your local vulcan council, humans have frailties, foibles, and emotional irrationalities that can bring down the best deliberative body, regardless of what country it is located in.

It would however be interesting to see how often 300million people could come to a consensus, or something "near enough".[/quote]

[quote]This country and its people lack sufficient altruism required for a true democracy[/quote]

Majority rule is a last resort fail-safe. I don't believe deliberative democracy is unattainable, it simply requires the willingness of individuals to give in order to get. If the U.S. representative democracy is possible anything is possible as long as there are willing individuals.

In my office we use

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=saden1;835847]In my office we use[/quote]

Sadly it appears from the sudden end to that post that Saden has fallen victim to the Roman political model.

Et Tu Brutus.......

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=RedskinRat;835848]Sadly it appears from the sudden end to that post that Saden has fallen victim to the Roman political model.

Et Tu Brutus.......[/quote]

I got distracted...so many battle fronts going on at the same time.

In my office we use it and even though we have diverse opinions we are unified in our objective...find the best solution that's satisfactory to a problem.


Side note...it just so happens we currently have two bugs opened by two different clients...the solution to one bug introduces the other bug and vise versa. The question is how do you address both bugs and still satisfy all clients?

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=saden1;835851]I got distracted...so many battle fronts going on at the same time.

In my office we use it and even though we have diverse opinions we are unified in our objective...find the best solution that's satisfactory to a problem.


Side note...it just so happens we currently have two bugs opened by two different clients...the solution to one bug introduces the other bug and vise versa. The question is how do you address both bugs and still satisfy all clients?[/quote]
on the dd in the office, I presume there are less than 1million people in your office. Just a guess, I could be wrong, and if I am, I would love to see the conference table you all make the decisions at.

on the two bugs, that's a pretty vague question, but I would hazard that you weigh both clients needs, the one that needs the more simple interface gets the solution to their problem, and the one that can handle an added layer gets a bridge layer that either sidesteps or uses an added interface to resolve the bug on their version. If they both need the same software, then the simple solution is an option the end user sets, and that dictates which path the data flows.

Of course, not knowing the real issue that all may just be a theoretical solution that can never work practically.;)

Re: Is true democracy in the US is dead?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;835852]on the dd in the office, I presume there are less than 1million people in your office. Just a guess, I could be wrong, and if I am, I would love to see the conference table you all make the decisions at.

on the two bugs, that's a pretty vague question, but I would hazard that you weigh both clients needs, the one that needs the more simple interface gets the solution to their problem, and the one that can handle an added layer gets a bridge layer that either sidesteps or uses an added interface to resolve the bug on their version. If they both need the same software, then the simple solution is an option the end user sets, and that dictates which path the data flows.

Of course, not knowing the real issue that all may just be a theoretical solution that can never work practically.;)[/quote]

It can work in an office with 1 million employees. While we don't have 1 million people we do have 130K employees and just last year we did a survey and had localized group discussions of small teams to improve our work environment and the company. Not all my concerned were addressed by subsequent actions taken by the company but enough of my concerns were addressed to be satisfied.

Deliberative democratic process is used in many localities in the U.S., state houses and even congress. Unfortunately feedback by the citizenry is seldom utilized by our legislative bodies in favor of special interests who have deep pockets.