Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[url=http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=669706&gt1=28103]Michael Moore, Elisabeth Hasselbeck tangle over Osama bin Laden - MSN TV News[/url]

I don't have much to say on the subject other than :doh:

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Michael Moore is why we can't have nice things.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Michael Moore is the left's version of Glen Beck. I like some of the work he's done, but he goes too far sometimes and this is a good example.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

fat ass idiot

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

I am not looking at it from his perspective (everyone should get a trial), but Bin Laden wanted to die as a "martyr". He wanted to die fighting and that's how the Taliban or any other radical group will spin it.

It would have been more difficult to bring him in alive. And, why not lock his ass up in a max security prison. No access, minus Bubba's rear end access in the showers. That's much more of a punishment than a quick death.

There would be a ton of outrage and it would be controversial but I think being locked up for life in that position would be worst off than death for him and I wanted the SOB to suffer.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

The accused deserves a legitimate chance to stand trial for their crimes. Osama probabaly wouldn't have gotten a fair trial in the U.S. but it would have been better than nothing at all. Ultimately all this discussion doesn't matter because Osama wasn't going to let anyone take him alive.

He got what he deserved and justice was done.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial? He got it....
Seal Team 6....Judge.....Jury.....Executioner...

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Hog1;836102]Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial? He got it....
Seal Team 6....Judge.....Jury.....Executioner...[/quote]

~~~~~
Couldn't agree more!

Michael Moore is a talentless idiot.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=hooskins;836092]I am not looking at it from his perspective (everyone should get a trial), but Bin Laden wanted to die as a "martyr". He wanted to die fighting and that's how the Taliban or any other radical group will spin it.

It would have been more difficult to bring him in alive. And, why not lock his ass up in a max security prison. No access, minus Bubba's rear end access in the showers. That's much more of a punishment than a quick death.

There would be a ton of outrage and it would be controversial but I think being locked up for life in that position would be worst off than death for him and I wanted the SOB to suffer.[/quote]

While I agree holding him would take that away I think it would have sparked too many terroriest attacks and Obama handled this the correct way.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

he got his trial, by fire.

moore's an idiot and about 10 years too late. I'm glad he can help his Q rating though, but he can shove it for all I care.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Michael Moore is right on this one. One thing that separates our country from other places is our fair system of justice. And, under that system, bin Laden deserved a trial.

When Hasselbeck said that bin Laden did not have the right to a fair trial, she was essentially saying that we will abandon our principles of fairness and justice for bin Laden. In other words, no need for bin Laden to destroy the American way of life - Hasselbeck is willing simply to surrender it.

Now of course, bin Laden was killed rather than getting a trial and no one should lose any sleep over that. Sometimes bank robbers are killed in the midst of the crime and don't get their trials, either. But Hasselbeck argued for vengeance rather than justice and in so doing she sold out our country's greatest ideals.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Could you imagine being a family member of one of the victims of 9/11 and sitting there (in person or on tv) listening to Bin Laden defend himself and explain why he ordered what he did?

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Lotus;836174]Michael Moore is right on this one. One thing that separates our country from other places is our fair system of justice. And, under that system, bin Laden deserved a trial.

When Hasselbeck said that bin Laden did not have the right to a fair trial, she was essentially saying that we will abandon our principles of fairness and justice for bin Laden. In other words, no need for bin Laden to destroy the American way of life - Hasselbeck is willing simply to surrender it.

Now of course, bin Laden was killed rather than getting a trial and no one should lose any sleep over that. Sometimes bank robbers are killed in the midst of the crime and don't get their trials, either. But Hasselbeck argued for vengeance rather than justice and in so doing she sold out our country's greatest ideals.[/quote]

I hope you're trolling becuase thats just (insert words to get warned by a mod)

Bin Laden deserved to die a horrible death with extreme prejudice ASAP from the hands of Americans. He is the greatest villian that ever countered the United States of America. To give him a nano fraction of quarter for more than a second is monumentally absurd.

And Michael Moore is an idiotic bucket of steaming rectum juice.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

In a perfect world he would have had a trial.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Live by the sword, die by the sword.........

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Mattyk;836181]In a perfect world he would have had a trial.[/quote]

And as I don't run the place it's never likely to be perfect.

Have to disagree with the trial: A trial would merely have give the scumbag a platform to spout his hatred. We need to get back on track of utterly vanquishing foes. Hearts and minds cost money and when money is involved the highest bidder is always going to win. House of Saud can outbid us any time and has.

Kill with extreme prejudice, make it very public and messy. Send the message of brutality to trump their brutality. Use unmanned drones early and often. Watch the ranks dwindle once the see the futility. Can you guess which side I'm on when I watch Star Wars?

Bring the troops home, secure the border.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Osama commited suicide as soon as he concocted a plan and attacked American soil and he reaffirmed his death wish when he tried to reach for a weapon when the navy seals entered his room. Suicide by American Soldiers...it was inevitable, deserved, and just.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Matty's right. In some utopian perfect vacuum world we capture him and hold him for trial. Too bad that world doesn't exist. Neither opinion seems to hold ground as the absolute truth. Saden's probably got it most right. It doesn't matter since he never would have let himself be captured. Suicide by soldier is right.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;836179]I hope you're trolling becuase thats just (insert words to get warned by a mod)

Bin Laden deserved to die a horrible death with extreme prejudice ASAP from the hands of Americans. [B]He is the greatest villian that ever countered the United States of America. [/B] To give him a nano fraction of quarter for more than a second is monumentally absurd.

And Michael Moore is an idiotic bucket of steaming rectum juice.[/quote]

Well, Hitler might get a mention, but essentially I agree with you on that point.

However, it doesn't change the fact that he deserved a trial under our system of justice. Charles Manson got a trial. Timothy McVeigh got a trial. Nazi war criminals got trials. Bin Laden should have gotten a trial. To deny him a trial would be to surrender the ideals which help to make us great, whether he used that trial to grandstand or not. The Constitution does not guarantee the right to a fair trial unless grandstanding will happen - it guarantees a fair trial, period.

But Saden is right: Like Hitler, bin Laden essentially committed suicide, making the point moot.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

He will be tried and judged - just not on earth.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Mattyk;836181]In a perfect world he would have had a trial.[/quote]

In a perfect world he wouldn't have done what he did to deserve being hunted down.

He got what he deserved, given the circumstances.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Hog1;836102]Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial? He got it....
Seal Team 6....Judge.....Jury.....Executioner...[/quote]
Excellent !!!!!! Too bad Moore wasn't sleeping over with Bin that night in April .

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=cpayne5;836316]In a perfect world he wouldn't have done what he did to deserve being hunted down.

He got what he deserved, given the circumstances.[/quote]

Agreed, pretty much what I was getting at.

A trial would have been messy and would have dug up a lot of old wounds, only to end up putting him to death anyway, and it would have incited his supporters even more.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=saden1;836205]Osama commited suicide as soon as he concocted a plan and attacked American soil and he reaffirmed his death wish when he tried to reach for a weapon when the navy seals entered his room. Suicide by American Soldiers...it was inevitable, deserved, and just.[/quote]

Best post yet. /thread.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Moore is a jackass for a number of reasons, but I don't have an issue with this specific opinion.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=SmootSmack;836178]Could you imagine being a family member of one of the victims of 9/11 and sitting there (in person or on tv) listening to Bin Laden defend himself and explain why he ordered what he did?[/quote]


...but he wasn't the mastermind behind 9/11. That guy we had already killed.


edit: Not going to say M. Moore is a idiot and all the other shit some of you spew, but I understand his view, even though I don't agree with it. At what point do we draw the line in the sand? Who's to say that the cops or other law enforcement don't paint some guy as a target and do the same thing? Who's to judge who gets what punishment? It's a slippery slope.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=NC_Skins;837908]...but he wasn't the mastermind behind 9/11. That guy we had already killed.


edit: Not going to say M. Moore is a idiot and all the other shit some of you spew, but I understand his view, even though I don't agree with it. At what point do we draw the line in the sand? Who's to say that the cops or other law enforcement don't paint some guy as a target and do the same thing? Who's to judge who gets what punishment? It's a slippery slope.[/quote]

But it wasn't the cops or some other law enforcement.
It was the American military vs a terrorist organization.
You comparison sucks and is full of hyperbole.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

^ The point is that, military or not, the Constitution is the Constitution. Military action, the feelings of victims, heinousness of crimes, grandstanding at a trial, etc., are not reasons to throw the Constitution out of the window.

Once people begin to ignore the Constitution, as many in this thread have, you have to wonder if or when ignoring the Constitution will end.

Bin Laden had a Constitutional right to a trial. Period.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=NC_Skins;837908]...but he wasn't the mastermind behind 9/11. [B]That guy we had already killed.[/B]

...
[/quote]

KSM is alive. We captured him in 2003 and he's been sitting in a jail cell ever since.

UBL may not have been the so-called mastermind, but he was the leader of al-Qaida and gave the go ahead to carry out the attacks in his/their name.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Lotus;838065]^ The point is that, military or not, the Constitution is the Constitution. Military action, the feelings of victims, heinousness of crimes, grandstanding at a trial, etc., are not reasons to throw the Constitution out of the window.

Once people begin to ignore the Constitution, as many in this thread have, you have to wonder if or when ignoring the Constitution will end.

Bin Laden had a Constitutional right to a trial. Period.[/quote]

Horsehockey!
Bin Laden wasn't an American, we are at war......it doesn't apply to him. How in the world could you validate him getting the benefit of our Constitution?
And by that rationale we could never kill anyone on the battlefield, we'd have to capture all of them and put them on trial.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;838069]Horsehockey!
Bin Laden wasn't an American, we are at war......it doesn't apply to him. How in the world could you validate him getting the benefit of our Constitution?
And by that rationale we could never kill anyone on the battlefield, we'd have to capture all of them and put them on trial.[/quote]

No.

The Constitution does not have an exception for citizenship. If you commit a crime in the United States (9/11 happened here, not in Afghanistan), you have a right to a trial, regardless of your nationality. That is what the Constitution says. I suggest that you re-read your Bill of Rights.

Further, on 9/11/01, there was no declared war against al-Qaeda. Military action happened after that. Before you start talking about war as a context, you need to fix your timeline.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Ok, I'm not a BOR expert.
However I fail to understand how the USA Const. applies to every asshole on the whole globe. It was written for the USA. If anyone should request a trial for him it should be Saudi Arabia.


Some of you guys are too busy hugging the tree to realize that Bin Laden did not surrender to us. He shot at us whether at 9/11 or in his compound in Pakistan.
Its a war.
You kill the bad guys. That's how you win.
Did you think he would have come quietly if we asked him?
The US military went to kill Bin Laden beacuse its a [SIZE="6"][COLOR="Red"]WAR[/COLOR][/SIZE].
Its not the FBI rounding up an illegal Cuban kid.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Finally! A really contentious topic. Yay!

'[I]Vanquish[/I]' isn't just the best car in the world, it's what should be done to your enemy.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

Hey Alvin, you are right. I actually disagreed with your position but since you used bold, caps, red text you have definitely swayed my opinion.

[IMG]http://dc-hub.interactiveone.com/files/2010/01/jim-zorn-thumbs-up.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Lotus;838074]Further, on 9/11/01, there was no declared war against al-Qaeda. Military action happened after that.[/quote]

'The Base' declared war on us, Dar al islam declared war on Dar al Harb even before that. Timeline?

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=hooskins;838088]Hey Alvin, you are right. I actually disagreed with your position but since you used bold, caps, red text you have definitely swayed my opinion. [/quote]

Thanks honey.
Glad to know I converted another tree hugger.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Lotus;838074]No.

The Constitution does not have an exception for citizenship. If you commit a crime in the United States (9/11 happened here, not in Afghanistan), you have a right to a trial, regardless of your nationality. That is what the Constitution says. I suggest that you re-read your Bill of Rights.

Further, on 9/11/01, there was no declared war against al-Qaeda. Military action happened after that. Before you start talking about war as a context, you need to fix your timeline.[/quote]

Lotus,

Typically your arguments are solid, and I don't really have a stance on Bin Laden either way, but I think you are off base on the exception for citizenship. The Pre-amble states:
[quote]We [B]the People of the United States[/B], in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution [B]for the United States of America[/B].[/quote]

Here it is pretty definitive that the Constitution was and is designed to primarily to protect US citizens.

Now in Article 3 you might read :
[quote]The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.[/quote] and use this as saying that it doesn't note citizenship, but Amendment 11, which changes an original part of Article 3 reads:
[quote]The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.[/quote] So the Judicial powers do acknowledge the different citizenships of individuals.

Finally, you may solely be looking at Amendment 5:
[quote]No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.[/quote] but the key here is that as an Amendment to the original Constitution, no state, or citizen of any state, could claim it's right without first acknowledging to be subject to the laws and rules laid down in the Constitution itself. I think it is fairly safe to say that Bin Laden did not acknowledge himself to be subject to the US Constitution, thus he could not seek the protection of the Amendments to that document.

(i am sure this can get argued in excess when it comes to illegal immigrants etc, but I am only speaking to whether a non-citizen not on US soil, nor making any claims to US citizenship and law could somehow claim that we must offer them the protection of our Bill of Rights, and the Constitution they amend)

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=Alvin Walton;838075]Ok, I'm not a BOR expert.
[B]However I fail to understand how the USA Const. applies to every asshole on the whole globe.[/B] It was written for the USA. If anyone should request a trial for him it should be Saudi Arabia.


[B]Some of you guys are too busy hugging the tree to realize that Bin Laden did not surrender to us.[/B] He shot at us whether at 9/11 or in his compound in Pakistan.
Its a war.
You kill the bad guys. That's how you win.
Did you think he would have come quietly if we asked him?
The US military went to kill Bin Laden beacuse its a [SIZE="6"][COLOR="Red"]WAR[/COLOR][/SIZE].
Its not the FBI rounding up an illegal Cuban kid.[/quote]

1) The Constitution does not apply to every "asshole" on the planet, as indicated by CRed's post. However, it does apply to crimes committed in the USA. 9/11 happened in the USA. So the Constitution applies.

2) Of course bin Laden did not surrender. He was a fugitive from the law and got shot while resisting arrest. Happens all the time. I shed no tears that this happened. But no here has argued against this. The question on the table, the question that Moore raised, was whether bin Laden deserved a trial if he had been brought in alive. And the Constitution says "yes" to this question.

3) I'm not hugging a tree. I'm defending the US Constitution from those who would prefer to ignore it.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=RedskinRat;838092]'The Base' declared war on us, Dar al islam declared war on Dar al Harb even before that. Timeline?[/quote]

On 9/11/01 we had not declared war on al-Qaeda or on Afghanistan. By American standards, we were not at war. Therefore hiding behind "war" arguments to suspend the Constitution, as was argued above, would not be legally justifiable in terms of prosecuting a crime which happened on 9/11/01.

Re: Michael Moore thinks Osama Bin Laden deserved a trial
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;838136]Lotus,

Typically your arguments are solid, and I don't really have a stance on Bin Laden either way, but I think you are off base on the exception for citizenship. The Pre-amble states:


Here it is pretty definitive that the Constitution was and is designed to primarily to protect US citizens.

Now in Article 3 you might read :
and use this as saying that it doesn't note citizenship, but Amendment 11, which changes an original part of Article 3 reads:
So the Judicial powers do acknowledge the different citizenships of individuals.

Finally, you may solely be looking at Amendment 5:
but the key here is that as an Amendment to the original Constitution, no state, or citizen of any state, could claim it's right without first acknowledging to be subject to the laws and rules laid down in the Constitution itself. I think it is fairly safe to say that Bin Laden did not acknowledge himself to be subject to the US Constitution, thus he could not seek the protection of the Amendments to that document.

(i am sure this can get argued in excess when it comes to illegal immigrants etc, but I am only speaking to whether a non-citizen not on US soil, nor making any claims to US citizenship and law could somehow claim that we must offer them the protection of our Bill of Rights, and the Constitution they amend)[/quote]

Excellent thoughtful post CRed. I must disagree with your interpretations, though. My understanding of the passage from Amendment 11 which you produced is that it was designed to speak against the idea that the Constitution can be applied in other countries. We can't apply the Constitution in France. But 9/11 was a crime committed in this country so that clause does not apply.

As for bin Laden's assent to governance by the Constitution, things do not work that way. Otherwise any foreigner could come to the USA, break federal law, and claim "You can't try me because I don't assent to your Constitution." Likewise, when I take one of my trips to India, I am subject to Indian law, including the Indian constitution, regardless of my nationality. For bin Laden, his assent was not required since he committed his crime on US soil.

Bin Laden's crime of 9/11 was committed on USA soil. This means that USA law definitely applied, including Constitutional law.