Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

Something ive never like about the hard hitting rules is that I feel like in many situations the defender is without other options. Id like to start this thread to discuss rules relating to hits where it seems the player was wrongly penalized or fined, or to discuss rules in question to better understand them. Also since there seems to be a lot of subjectivity to illegal hitting rules I think talking about why a ref or the NFL was right or wrong might help clear things up (at least for me).

Starting off ive watched CB Dunta Robinson’s hit on Jermany Maclin many times and I think he was rightly flagged but there was nothing else he could have done.

Dunta Robinson starts converging to Maclin once he recognizes the play and as Maclin is also coincidentally converging to Robinson, at this point they are about 12-15 yards away from each other. When Maclin makes the catch Robinson is about 4 yards away. At this point Robinson has 3 viable options, 1) hit Maclin in the body, 2) whiff the body and try to take Maclin down via arm tackle, or 3) let up as much as possible and let Maclin run over him.

Robinson chose a combination of hitting Maclin in the body and letting up. Robinson initially lets up right while he is standing on the edge of the painted “40” yard marker, at which point Maclin breaks slightly to the inside of the field, however; is still moving towards Robinson while accelerating. Its important to note that after Maclin catches the ball he is moving at a faster rate than Robinson since Robinson had let up at this point and come to an almost complete stop. Robinson then cuts into Maclin’s path, scrunches down and hits Maclin’s right arm (ball carrying arm) and shoulder with his own shoulder. Maclin knows the hit is coming and tenses up right before the contact. Also worth noting is right before the hit Robinson’s helmet hits the lower portion of Maclins facemask, this seems minor and incidental, and is likely the reason the helmet to helmet contact rule wasn’t cited in Robinson’s fine.

Robinson was fined under the following rule:

[I]It is a foul if a player initiates unnecessary contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture. [/I]

[FONT=Verdana][I][FONT=Calibri][FONT=Verdana](a) Players in a defenseless posture are…(2) A receiver attempting to catch a pass; or who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a runner[/FONT]. [/FONT][/I][/FONT]

I completely believe Maclin was guilty of this rule, but I think this rule is complete BS.

In this play Robinson chose the safest way to hit Maclin, without allowing Maclin to gain additional yards. If he had let up completely he would of gotten trucked a la Laron Landry Brandon Jacobs 2008, which is not only embarrassing but also dangerous for the defender. His other option would be to whiff on the tackle and try and wrap a arm around Maclin. This would allow Maclin to gain additional yards after contact if brought down and giving that Maclin is taller and heavier and was moving faster than Robinson and to Robinson’s inside I would make the posture that Maclin would have broken free and gained many additional yards. I would also say that if Robinson made a arm tackle in this situation there would be a significant chance of injury to the arm/shoulder.

Im not big on Yahoo! Sports fan but this article makes several good points:

[quote]
[FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][COLOR=black][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Falcons head coach [/FONT][URL="http://sports.search.yahoo.com/search?p=Mike+Smith+NFL&fr=sports-us-ss"][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#0000ff]Mike Smith[/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Verdana] said that he felt the Robinson hit was clean, and said "that's the way we teach it." On Monday, Smith said that his opinion hadn't changed.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Smith didn't represent himself in a way that would make people understand, but in a way, he does have a larger point. NFL defenders are taught to converge on receivers in zone pockets (the Falcons play a lot of zone in the 4-3 base defense) as the highest possible speed while still maintaining the control required to avoid whiffing on a tackle.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][URL="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Dunta-Robinson-8217-s-Sunday-hit-reminds-of-las?urn=nfl-wp7410"][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=#0000ff]As we wrote on Monday[/COLOR][/FONT][/URL][FONT=Verdana], the Maclin and Jackson hits also reflect one unfortunate reality of NFL football — given the quickness of the game and certain schematic issues, a quarterback who leads his receiver into a zone pocket with defenders converging on him at full speed is essentially betting on physics and hoping against hope that the guy closing in on his receiver in the way he has been taught will be able to pull up in time.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]It's not really a safe bet, no matter how many rules the NFL puts in place.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/quote]

link and video:

[URL="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Dunta-Robinson-fined-40k-for-Maclin-hit-Falcon?urn=nfl-wp7531"]Dunta Robinson fined $40K for Maclin hit, Falcons coach says ‘That’s the way we teach it’ - Shutdown Corner - NFL*Blog - Yahoo! Sports[/URL]

Basically when the theres a zone defense on the field you run a much much higher likelihood of this type of hit. In my opinion its more the offensives players fault for these hits then it is the defensive player fault, and I think that’s something to be very concerned about. If a player is flagged for a illegal hit the penalty is 15 yards from the spot of the foul. In my opinion offensive coordinators would be foolish not have plays on their books that look to take advantage of the current hard hitting rules given the amount that there is to gain from a big hit.

Maclin was put in a situation where there was a significant probability of getting “jacked up” and to me that’s very troubling. Robinson really had no other option considering the defensive scheme he was in. Perhaps zone coverage should be illegal?

Thoughts?

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

That is good analysis, however I still say he ducked his head and lead with his helmet.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

He ducked his head and thrusted up and at the WR and his head made the first contact to the chin. . Sorry that was not a legal hit and that hit was one where I feel he was trying to injure the other player. I enjoy a good hard hit as much as the next guy but that was not needed.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

Personally I thought it was a great hit. It was as much shoulder than it was helmet. Collinsworth is a puss IMO and needs to go call golf games.

Maclin takes the ball across the middle in stride makes no attempt to cut and pulls up on Robinson instead of lowering his shoulder. Robinson planted so he had no choice but to make the hit or get out of the way and let Maclin run by him. No way the stop is made any other way. Maybe they should employ the 2 hand touch rule on such plays.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Jontrem;838403]That is good analysis, however I still say he ducked his head and lead with his helmet.[/quote]

Okay thats something i didnt think about at all. Do you know if its illegal to duck your head and lead with your helmet in all tackle instances or jut when your smashing your helmet into another players helmet?

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

What the rule makers and fine makers fail to realize is it so easy to see a play in slow motion and theorize the tackler could have done this or should have done that. In some cases the game and play is so fast that the defensive player/tackler is lucky just to make contact with a WR that runs at 4.3 speed. Much less does the tackler have the options to decide where he is going to hit the offensive player.
The other point you already talk about is the issue when the offensive player lowers his head at the last second and thus accidentally makes head to head contact with the defensive player. That is not the defensive players fault.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=firstdown;838405]He ducked his head and thrusted up and at the WR and his head made the first contact to the chin. . Sorry that was not a legal hit and that hit was one where I feel he was trying to injure the other player. I enjoy a good hard hit as much as the next guy but that was not needed.[/quote]


See i dont think its possible to duck your head and thrust up. I think when he came up it was because of the contact; he was knocked back and up. If you look closely Robinson's helmet only hit the bottom of his facemask. To me he wasnt trying to hurt him he was trying to go as low as possible on him while Maclin was coming at him, and that was as low as he could possible get.

Either way i dont think there is anything else that Robinson could have done, which makes me think should zone coverage be illegal since it forces these kind of hits.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

He's gotta keep his head up. I don't think it was a dirty hit, but anytime you lower your head in a situation like that it's gonna be flagged and fined these days.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Mattyk;838431]He's gotta keep his head up. I don't think it was a dirty hit, but anytime you lower your head in a situation like that it's gonna be flagged and fined these days.[/quote]

bingo, it would have been completely legal if he wouldn't have lowered his head. it's as much of a safety concern for the receiver as it is for the defender. from day one the first rule you learn as a defender is see what you hit, when you drop your head down you have a greater chance of a spinal injury. when you lower your head your body doesn't take the impact from the hit you spine does. imo robinson needs to learn how to hit with his head up to stop avoiding getting fined and flagged. and smith needs to enforce this in practice, if it keeps coming up with the smae guy on the same team i think not only should the player be fined but the coaching staff should take a hit as well.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

dunta could have kept his head up. he had that option.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

He could have kept his head up and still hit him square in the face-mask with his face-mask. I am not sure what keeping his head up would have done to avoid the helmet to helmet hit. Putting his face forward wouldn't change the positioning of his head in general just what part of his head he hit him with. He lowered his shoulder and ducked his head and gets flagged for what? Getting his body into the proper position to make a good tackle? Seems crappy to me. It's unfortunate that Maclin got hit in the head but it was also unavoidable outside of completely changing the tackle positioning which presented competitive risk. The rule simply can't be so black and white... well I guess it can but it looks stupid and causes a load of other competitive issues that apparently the NFL doesn't really care about. They only care about perception of safety for some reason right now.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

If he would have kept his head up and just hit him with his shoulder, perhaps there's a still a penalty, but I would bet there wouldn't have been a fine.

It's simple, see what you hit. Lowering your head is a guaranteed flag and fine. Just the way things are now.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Mattyk;838521]If he would have kept his head up and just hit him with his shoulder, perhaps there's a still a penalty, but I would bet there wouldn't have been a fine.

It's simple, see what you hit. Lowering your head is a guaranteed flag and fine. Just the way things are now.[/quote]

Agreed. Keep your head up, see what you hit, and don't lead with your helmet and you won't be fined.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

What I want to see is offensive players fined/flagged when they lead with their helmet. You see a running back constantly drop their helmet into the defenders helmet and create that helmet to helmet contact. Why should a RB be able to lead with his head into a pile?

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

Do RBs hit defenseless players that often? I think that's what this boils down to, and why it doesn't apply to RBs.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Mattyk;838521]If he would have kept his head up and just hit him with his shoulder, perhaps there's a still a penalty, but I would bet there wouldn't have been a fine.

It's simple, see what you hit. Lowering your head is a guaranteed flag and fine. Just the way things are now.[/quote]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]What FRPLG is saying is that if he had his head up he would have made a helmet to helmet hit, which is illegal. I completely agree with FRPLG and also think that a helmet to helmet hit would be considered "worse" in the sense it would draw a larger fine. Honestly i dont think there was anything he could of done that would have stopped the receiver at or in the immediate area of the point of contact without being fined. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Does anyone know the rule around "leading with your head"? Is that actually anywhere in the rule book? I always thought leading with your head applied to helmet to helmet stuff. [/COLOR][/FONT]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]While Robinson's helmet did grace Maclin's facemask the hit came from Robinson's shoulder to Maclin's arm/shoulder. And the rule he was fined under is the defenseless receiver rule, nothing around leading with his head. So even if he had his head up and somehow managed to not hit Maclin's helmet he would have been flagged and fined under the defenseless receiver rule. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]think he is guilty of the defenseless receiver rule, but as I stated above that rule is completely bs. If you dont want defenseless receivers to get hit hard make zone coverage’s illegal or have a offsetting penalty on QB's for leading the receiver into an unavoidable hit. If its a penalty on the QB then DB's will know they can completely let up and it wont matter because the pass is going to be called back, and if the DB goes through with the hit then fine him. Its not just the safety of the receiver, the defender often gets seriously hurt too.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=FRPLG;838514]He could have kept his head up and still hit him square in the face-mask with his face-mask. I am not sure what keeping his head up would have done to avoid the helmet to helmet hit. Putting his face forward wouldn't change the positioning of his head in general just what part of his head he hit him with. He lowered his shoulder and ducked his head and gets flagged for what? Getting his body into the proper position to make a good tackle? Seems crappy to me. It's unfortunate that Maclin got hit in the head but it was also unavoidable outside of completely changing the tackle positioning which presented competitive risk. The rule simply can't be so black and white... well I guess it can but it looks stupid and causes a load of other competitive issues that apparently the NFL doesn't really care about. They only care about perception of safety for some reason right now.[/quote]

did you ever happen to play football? i only played a few years i highschool but the number one thing you are alway taught is to see what you hit, and thats not so you don't hurt the player you are hitting but so you don't hurt yourself. ducking your head down is not the proper way to tackle and it's not safe for either the receiver or the defender, it's a very easy was to get seriously injured

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=mlmpetert;838578][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]What FRPLG is saying is that if he had his head up he would have made a helmet to helmet hit, which is illegal. I completely agree with FRPLG and also think that a helmet to helmet hit would be considered "worse" in the sense it would draw a larger fine. Honestly i dont think there was anything he could of done that would have stopped the receiver at or in the immediate area of the point of contact without being fined. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Does anyone know the rule around "leading with your head"? Is that actually anywhere in the rule book? I always thought leading with your head applied to helmet to helmet stuff. [/COLOR][/FONT]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]While Robinson's helmet did grace Maclin's facemask the hit came from Robinson's shoulder to Maclin's arm/shoulder. And the rule he was fined under is the defenseless receiver rule, nothing around leading with his head. So even if he had his head up and somehow managed to not hit Maclin's helmet he would have been flagged and fined under the defenseless receiver rule. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]think he is guilty of the defenseless receiver rule, but as I stated above that rule is completely bs. If you dont want defenseless receivers to get hit hard make zone coverage’s illegal or have a offsetting penalty on QB's for leading the receiver into an unavoidable hit. If its a penalty on the QB then DB's will know they can completely let up and it wont matter because the pass is going to be called back, and if the DB goes through with the hit then fine him. Its not just the safety of the receiver, the defender often gets seriously hurt too.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]


I guess next is the defenseless returner rule. We've all seen guys get layed out at the point of reception or just after because they failed to call fair catch by defenders running full speed leading with the helmet. No fines given.

Notice Collinsworth seems to have no problem with it. Only when a receiver gets hit does he whine. [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04bPS5LwLqw]Kyle Nelson's BIG hit on Denarius Moore ---- NFL Pre-Season - YouTube[/ame]No Fines, No FLags

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWGJjBqYVcU]Adrian Maddbacker Ross big hit on Dennis Northcutt - YouTube[/ame]Flag but no Fines given. And it was not because of leading with his head. It was because he didnt give the returner a chance to catch the ball.

Why no Fines? What's the difference?

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=mlmdub130;838584]did you ever happen to play football? i only played a few years i highschool but the number one thing you are alway taught is to see what you hit, and thats not so you don't hurt the player you are hitting but so you don't hurt yourself. ducking your head down is not the proper way to tackle and it's not safe for either the receiver or the defender, it's a very easy was to get seriously injured[/quote]

Well now their teaching NFL players to avoid helmet to helmet hits at all costs. So Robinson put his head down likely in a attempt to avoid the helmet to helmet hit, and could have seriously hurt himself.

Honestly i think the only way to avoid these hits is to make it a penalty for the qb to lead a receiver into a defenseless hit. Or make zone coverage illegal, however; getting ride of zone coverage would drastically alter the game.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

Personally I'm so sick of all these stupid ass 15 yard personal fouls. It's just gotten way out of hand. I understand leading with your helmet. Fine. But what the league can't understand is the difference between intent and an accident. The Robinson hit was borderline. He lowered his head so I can stomach that one. But there was a shitty call against a defensive player on a QB where he was losing his balance and tackled the QB low. 15 yards. So stupid. What's the defender suppose to do? Stop his fall and try and avoid the QB's knee? It's ridiculous cause there was no intent there.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

Inconsistent league is inconsistent.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=NC_Skins;838610]Inconsistent league is inconsistent.[/quote]

I agree completely. helmet to helmet happens every single play. I would say on almost every single tackle there is helmet to helmet contact. I do however agree that when a player blatently leads with his head like a bullet and spears a player in the head, that should be a penalty and fine. However if you watch on almost all tackles helmet to helmet occurs. I feel like penalties and fines are given especialy when a guy gets hurt or a big hit occurs even if it wasnt a spearing hit! When a player hits with his shoulder, most likely the players are going to hit heads also. Some of the penalties and fines are being given for hits that are undeserving and just big hits. These penalties change games.

And what is this about a defenseless receiver? i do not understand. If a defensive back or linebacker gets to where he is suppose to be right when the ball does, he cant hit him? Give me a break, does the league just want defenders to allow receivers to catch balls? When a ballcarrier has the ball they get low to brace for contact, and so does a defender to make a tackle. Helmet to helmet will naturally happen! Is the defender just suppose to take it in the chest and get ran over?

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=mlmdub130;838584]did you ever happen to play football? i only played a few years i highschool but the number one thing you are alway taught is to see what you hit, and thats not so you don't hurt the player you are hitting but so you don't hurt yourself. ducking your head down is not the proper way to tackle and it's not safe for either the receiver or the defender, it's a very easy was to get seriously injured[/quote]

I don't believe for one second him having his head up would have been less dangerous compared to the actual hit that occurred. I do understand the concept in general that keeping your head up properly gives you the best chance to avoid danger and it limits the downward force on your own neck but in this case the head being down didn't actually do much of anything so it's a moot point as it relates to this specific hit.

And if we're talking on about brass tax and whether it was a) illegal by rule...it was and b) deserving of a fine...not sure. But ultimately I thought we were talking about what we thought of it opinion wise. My opinion is that the defenseless WR rule is mostly crap and unabashedly impossible to enforce consistently while the league office has its head in the clouds on this stuff.

Throwing a lead pass into the middle of the field where two guys are running 15 MPH at each other is straight up dangerous. The league should be looking at how to eliminate the cause not the symptom. Frankly asking players to both evaluate the potential physics and adjust without risking competitive disadvantage is ridiculous. If the league wants to protect players then outlaw tackling. Seriously. Otherwise one of the whole points of the game is the physical encounters that they are increasingly trying to eliminate.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=FRPLG;838626]I don't believe for one second him having his head up would have been less dangerous compared to the actual hit that occurred. I do understand the concept in general that keeping your head up properly gives you the best chance to avoid danger and it limits the downward force on your own neck but in this case the head being down didn't actually do much of anything so it's a moot point as it relates to this specific hit.

And if we're talking on about brass tax and whether it was a) illegal by rule...it was and b) deserving of a fine...not sure. But ultimately I thought we were talking about what we thought of it opinion wise. My opinion is that the defenseless WR rule is mostly crap and unabashedly impossible to enforce consistently while the league office has its head in the clouds on this stuff.

[B]Throwing a lead pass into the middle of the field where two guys are running 15 MPH at each other is straight up dangerous. The league should be looking at how to eliminate the cause not the symptom. Frankly asking players to both evaluate the potential physics and adjust without risking competitive disadvantage is ridiculous. [/B] If the league wants to protect players then outlaw tackling. Seriously. Otherwise one of the whole points of the game is the physical encounters that they are increasingly trying to eliminate.[/quote]

Extremely well said!

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=44ever;838590]I guess next is the defenseless returner rule. We've all seen guys get layed out at the point of reception or just after because they failed to call fair catch by defenders running full speed leading with the helmet. No fines given.

Notice Collinsworth seems to have no problem with it. Only when a receiver gets hit does he whine. [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04bPS5LwLqw]Kyle Nelson's BIG hit on Denarius Moore ---- NFL Pre-Season - YouTube[/url]No Fines, No FLags

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWGJjBqYVcU]Adrian Maddbacker Ross big hit on Dennis Northcutt - YouTube[/url]Flag but no Fines given. And it was not because of leading with his head. It was because he didnt give the returner a chance to catch the ball.

Why no Fines? What's the difference?[/quote]

Just watched both those vids.... Wow perfect hits. But yeah they were both defenseless.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[url=http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/21/derrick-morgan-fined-7500-tells-nfl-i-cant-stop-in-mid-air/]Derrick Morgan fined $7,500, tells NFL: I can’t stop in mid-air | ProFootballTalk[/url]

I cant find the video. Did anyone see it? Was it dirty or fine worthy?

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

"leading with your helmet" was called spearing when I played and was a 15 yard penalty. I am pretty sure it is a 15 yarder in the NFL

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[url=http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/penaltysummaries]NFL Rules Digest: Summary of Penalties[/url] search spear or just look under the 15 yard area.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Jontrem;838643]"leading with your helmet" was called spearing when I played and was a 15 yard penalty. I am pretty sure it is a 15 yarder in the NFL[/quote]

What if you led with your shoulder but your head got there first? On most people the head comes before the shoulder. Only Merton Hanks with his gigantically long neck could move his head far enough away from his shoulder to ever really not hit with part of his head first. I am pretty sure spearing meant you specifically used the top of your head as the lead point of force. That is not at all what Robinson did.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Mattyk;838521]If he would have kept his head up and just hit him with his shoulder, perhaps there's a still a penalty, but I would bet there wouldn't have been a fine.

It's simple, see what you hit. Lowering your head is a guaranteed flag and fine. Just the way things are now.[/quote]
And it is all statistics. When your head is lowered you are more likely to injure someone. I side with the NFL on all this. The game is too fast and players are too strong. We see what some of the NFL vets have had to go through and its a shame. Any rule that benefits the NFL Players' health, I support, even if it fundamentally changes the game I love.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=FRPLG;838657]What if you led with your shoulder but your head got there first? On most people the head comes before the shoulder. Only Merton Hanks with his gigantically long neck could move his head far enough away from his shoulder to ever really not hit with part of his head first. I am pretty sure spearing meant you specifically used the top of your head as the lead point of force. That is not at all what Robinson did.[/quote]

Incidental contact is inevitable at times, I agree. And yeah sometimes it's going to be unfairly flaggged, but when the league reviews it at least they aren't fining it. But poor technique is poor technique, and that's what lowering your head is.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Bubba305-ST21-;838613]I agree completely. helmet to helmet happens every single play. I would say on almost every single tackle there is helmet to helmet contact. I do however agree that when a player blatently leads with his head like a bullet and spears a player in the head, that should be a penalty and fine. However if you watch on almost all tackles helmet to helmet occurs. I feel like penalties and fines are given especialy when a guy gets hurt or a big hit occurs even if it wasnt a spearing hit! When a player hits with his shoulder, most likely the players are going to hit heads also. Some of the penalties and fines are being given for hits that are undeserving and just big hits. These penalties change games.

And what is this about a defenseless receiver? i do not understand. If a defensive back or linebacker gets to where he is suppose to be right when the ball does, [B]he cant hit him[/B]? Give me a break, does the league just want defenders to allow receivers to catch balls? When a ballcarrier has the ball they get low to brace for contact, and so does a defender to make a tackle. Helmet to helmet will naturally happen! Is the defender just suppose to take it in the chest and get ran over?[/quote]

I believe helmet to helmet is for a denfensless player only. A Linebacker can hit a WR in the process of making a catch they just cannot lead with their head because they are a defenseless player. After they have made the catch and become a runner they are no longer a denfenseless player. Its really not that hard.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=FRPLG;838657]What if you led with your shoulder but your head got there first? On most people the head comes before the shoulder. Only Merton Hanks with his gigantically long neck could move his head far enough away from his shoulder to ever really not hit with part of his head first. I am pretty sure spearing meant you specifically used the top of your head as the lead point of force. That is not at all what Robinson did.[/quote]

I was always taught to keep my head up and that way if my helmet did hit firs then it would generally hit with the facemask not the crown of my helmet. Also on the freakishly long necks point what about Steve Largent? He had the neck of a giraffe!

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Jontrem;838643]"leading with your helmet" was called spearing when I played and was a 15 yard penalty. I am pretty sure it is a 15 yarder in the NFL[/quote]

From the link you provided:

[quote]
A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.
[/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I dont think Robinson was guilty of any of the above. And like i said above thats probably why his fine cited the defenseless receiver rule, not the helmet to helmet rule. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]I havent had time to look up the official rules, but the summary page doesnt really help in debating the nuances of the rules; which is why i created this thread since the NFL seems to use nuances of rules when fining or cracking down on big time hits. [/COLOR][/FONT]

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=hooskins;838659][B]And it is all statistics. When your head is lowered you are more likely to injure someone.[/B] I side with the NFL on all this. The game is too fast and players are too strong. We see what some of the NFL vets have had to go through and its a shame. Any rule that benefits the NFL Players' health, I [B]support, even if it fundamentally changes the game I love[/B].[/quote]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]You got anything to back that up, or quotes from people who have said that? Im not trying to be a dick, and i get that keeping your head up can prevent injury to yourself but im not so sure about a opposing player.[/FONT][/COLOR]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]For this Robinson hit i think the rule is complete bs, thats what i dont like about it. I would support making it a penalty for a QB to lead a receiver into a hit, but I don’t think id support making zone coverage illegal. Would you support either?[/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=mlmpetert;838751][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]You got anything to back that up, or quotes from high ranking people who have said that? Im not trying to be a dick, but i get that keeping your head up can prevent injury to yourself but im not so sure about a opposing player.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]For this Robinson hit i think the rule is complete bs, thats what i dont like about it. [B]I would support making it a penalty for a QB to lead a receiver into a hit[/B], but I don’t think id support making zone coverage illegal. Would you support either?[/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]

Not sure that's the way to go either. Then you are discouraging QBs from making certain throws, and that will open them up to taking more hits and sacks.

I don't think there's an easy answer to all this, otherwise the NFL would already be doing something different. They want to make the game safer and also keep it entertaining. For all the gripes about this sort of stuff, it sure isn't hurting the ratings. Until it does, I don't think much is going to change.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Mattyk;838756]Not sure that's the way to go either. Then you are discouraging QBs from making certain throws, and that will open them up to taking more hits and sacks.

I don't think there's an easy answer to all this, otherwise the NFL would already be doing something different. They want to make the game safer and also keep it entertaining. For all the gripes about this sort of stuff, it sure isn't hurting the ratings. Until it does, I don't think much is going to change.[/quote]

it has nothing to do with ratings. of course we're going to watch. that's not the point. the integrity of the game is being ruined by the league office. roger goodell should go be the commish of tennis or something cause he's not a football person.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=skinsfan69;838773]it has nothing to do with ratings. of course we're going to watch. that's not the point. the integrity of the game is being ruined by the league office. roger goodell should go be the commish of tennis or something cause he's not a football person.[/quote]

No, it kinda is the point.

If the integrity of the game was truly being ruined, people would tune out.

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=firstdown;838726]I believe helmet to helmet is for a denfensless player only. A Linebacker can hit a WR in the process of making a catch they just cannot lead with their head because they are a defenseless player. After they have made the catch and become a runner they are no longer a denfenseless player. Its really not that hard.[/quote]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Im [I][FONT=Verdana]pretty certain[/FONT][/I] the helmet to helmet rule is for any tackle. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Also im [I][FONT=Verdana]pretty sure[/FONT][/I] that a WR can only be touched during a catch or immediately after a catch as long as they are not considered defenseless. So a WR being trailed closely from behind by a CB or LB can get hit as soon as he catches the ball. However a WR running in the direction of a CB or LB cannot be touched until they are running AND they are also in a position to defend themselves.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Maclin caught the ball and was running and even made a attempt to avoid contact, however; since his catch was made in front of Robinson he was ultimately in a defenseless position. Robinson techniqely couldn’t do anything, but would of likely gotten away with a arm or whiff type tackle if he tried. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]If i was a offensive coordinator i would be designing plays that would put a WR in a defenseless position after a catch when certain zones coverages are used. Youd be foolish not to. Theoretically the WR shouldn’t get touched and if he does its 15 yards from the spot of the foul even if he drops the catch. Its troubling in my opinion that offensive coordinators have that opportunity.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]So I put pretty certain and pretty sure above in italics because ive searched hard and cant find the definition of these rules anywhere. Anyone have them or know where to get them? This a HUGE part of the problem......[/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Understanding Hard-Hitting Rules
 

[quote=Daseal;838530]What I want to see is offensive players fined/flagged when they lead with their helmet. You see a running back constantly drop their helmet into the defenders helmet and create that helmet to helmet contact. Why should a RB be able to lead with his head into a pile?[/quote]

im pretty sure you can hit a running back or any established runner helmet to helmet.

the helmet to helmet rules apply to defenseless players only i think (players with ball who havent established themselves as runners)

as to qbs you cant hit them at the knees or below if you have an unobstructed path (seems real vague to me), you cant touch their head/helmet with any part of your body and im still trying to figure out if you cant lead with your helmet anywhere on a qb.

ps - the rules for defenders is almost impossible for them to comply with all the time, the game is just too fast, players move/lower their head at the last second before impact changing where the defender's intended point of impact . . . its just become impossible really.