Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

Might be a stupid thread, feel free to blast away if so... I was having a pretty good political conversation with friends the other day, and halfway through making a point came to the realization that I really don't believe in our government in any meaningful way at this point in my life.

Whether it's debt related corruption, social issues or war... I find it hard to get myself too worked up or surprised any more because I simply expect the worst, most self-serving systemic behavior on any given issue.

Haven't thought this out thoroughly enough to make a cogent argument...
Still, I'm curious, anyone finding themselves with zero faith in our process?

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

I first heard people saying this in the 60's when I was old enough to comprehend it.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss....

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;839009]Might be a stupid thread, feel free to blast away if so... I was having a pretty good political conversation with friends the other day, and halfway through making a point came to the realization that I really don't believe in our government in any meaningful way at this point in my life.

Whether it's debt related corruption, social issues or war... I find it hard to get myself too worked up or surprised any more because I simply expect the worst, most self-serving systemic behavior on any given issue.

Haven't thought this out thoroughly enough to make a cogent argument...
Still, I'm curious, anyone finding themselves with zero faith in our process?[/quote]

You're not the only one. I used to be a Political Science major and was very much into politics...but now I've become disillusioned with the politics of this country.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

I don't want to say I've completely lost faith, but it's hard to lose faith when you never really had faith to begin with. I am completely disillusioned with politics though, the war on Terror isn't the only war we're fighting, as the war between Dems and Repubs has been going on since forever, and is probably never going to end. People are just too invested in it now to give up and try to work together for the good of the people.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

Generally......yes

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

For the record, I did not pay, or prod, or in anyway coerce BleedBurgundy to start this thread.

Anyone who has read my off topic political responses knows that generally speaking, yes.

Anyone else miss Trample and JoeTheismanfan for these type discussions!

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

WHAT THE HELL happened to T the E ?

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

Was reading the other day about us stepping down our support for Taiwan, basically in a show of respect/fear of China's ability to Sith force choke our economy.

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/19/world/asia/us-decides-against-selling-f-16s-to-taiwan.html[/url]

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;839067]For the record, I did not pay, or prod, or in anyway coerce BleedBurgundy to start this thread.

Anyone who has read my off topic political responses knows that generally speaking, yes.

Anyone else miss Trample and JoeTheismanfan for these type discussions![/quote]
I look at politicians like neighbors , some of them are nice , honest and helpful , and some of them just suck . As far as TTE and JTF , I miss TTE , JTF .... too far out for me .

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=mooby;839048]I don't want to say I've completely lost faith, but it's hard to lose faith when you never really had faith to begin with. I am completely disillusioned with politics though, the war on Terror isn't the only war we're fighting, as the war between Dems and Repubs has been going on since forever, and is probably never going to end. People are just too invested in it now to give up and try to work together for the good of the people.[/quote]
Well said !!

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

We need a true multiparty system. The two party system is killing us because it polarizes discussion and buries legitimate alternative perspectives.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

It's all about the $$

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=Lotus;839098]We need a true multiparty system. The two party system is killing us because it polarizes discussion and buries legitimate alternative perspectives.[/quote]

This.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

What multi-party system has been any more or less successful at answering the public's concerns? I ask, because I haven't done any serious research, and figure someone might know already. In my opinion, it is very much of a case where gov't simply has gotten too big/unaccountable. In that case a multiparty system doesn't seem to answer many of my basic problems, because they simply squabble and point fingers more than what we already have. I do know, that many multiparty systems simply abandon a govt structure when one thinks it has gained an advantage.

My mind simply goes back to DeTocqueville's famous quote:
[QUOTE]
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
Alexis de Tocqueville [/QUOTE]

He was as prescient in that as Jules Verne was about the Kennedy Space Center

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

Yes for a long time now. I know our current two-party system is useless.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

The problem is that people are looking for the government to do things its not designed to do. Its no longer "ask what you can do for the country" its become "what can my government do for me".

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

The founding fathers tried everything to keep us away from a two party system. It will be the downfall of our nation!

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=NFLcrazy;839348]The founding fathers tried everything to keep us away from a two party system. It will be the downfall of our nation![/quote]

Nice hyperbole..........

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=NFLcrazy;839348]The founding fathers tried everything to keep us away from a two party system. It will be the downfall of our nation![/quote]

Um, how? Not being an idiot or jerk, but they set it up so that the leading vote getter was President, and the 2nd was Vice President. That kinda lends itself to vying for one of the top two candidates in the main election. By the time GW left, we had Thomas Jefferson and John Adams in two parties, the Federalist v the Democratic-Republican. Now a lot of them might have had reservations about it, but I would think trying everything would have included some form of requirement in the Constitution that either required more than 2 parties involved in elections, or proclaiming political parties unconstitutional.

We have had 2 parties through good times and bad times. I personally am not in favor of the Republicans or Democrats at this point, but what needs to happen is that enough people realize neither one is really truthful that a new party with gumption takes hold, and the old establishment withers away. That has happened before, in times of dire trouble, and right now, we aren't there yet. We may be on the precipice, certainly the Tea Party is nipping at the Republicans tail, but there isn't (that I know of) one that is encompassing a broad enough scope to attract individuals away from the mainline parties.

The use of media by the two mainstream parties really does cut both ways. If their message gets so crazy or out there, the public is not going to follow them, so they have to "stay on track" but there is a segment (about 30% for each main party) that is going to just lock stock and barrel follow what the leading thought of that party is. Truly though, if one party were just ridiculously lost, it would be replaced by the public.

I am not a government fan, but multi-party system seems to me to be a placebo and not the solution. Or, put another way, it is like someone saying snacking 5 times a day is better than 3 big meals, but the snacks each consist of 2 whoppers, large fries, and a diet coke. It ain't gonna solve the fundamental problem that there is too much going in.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

Like I said earlier its the size of government thats the problem. Se we give them a large some of our money each paycheck then we vote for who we think will give us back the biggest bang for our buck and if you don't work then your voting for the person who will give you the biggest chunck of someones elses money you did nothing to diserve. Take awy that money then your voting for the best person to run the country.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

I have two changes I would like to see happen to make the government work a bit better.

1) Eliminate the ability to tack anything onto a bill. One bill equals one law/change/etc. If you're voting on a law with regards to medical care for soldiers, you should NOT be able to tack anything about energy regulation onto that bill. You always see in campaigns that X voted against Y! Who knows what else was in that bill! My above statement wasn't an actual bill. I will gladly find examples if people like -- but we all know it happens.

2) I want to see these 75 year old men stop behaving like 8 year olds. An important skill in life is the ability to compromise. They seem to lack that ability. I think members of Congress have lost sight of doing what is best for our country and are just trying to get votes. They bicker like children over what typically shouldn't be a big deal with some negotiation. Each side has to concede some things, but at the end of the day you make our country stronger.

That said, I have lost complete faith in our government. We're starting to see why a republic has never lasted 250 years. The processes for getting things through have become so convoluted and difficult that it's impossible to get anything of substance done. It may be time to simplify a bit. What was relevant when they documentation for the United States was created has changed significantly. It may be time to update some of our basic principles. If you don't adapt, you die.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

Here's my suggestion: Make a career in politics a thing of the past. Fill representative posts via a draft and make it a form of service. Make sure the overall assembly is reflective of the demographics of those they are representing; socially, economically, professionally. Cap length of service to 3 or 4 years and make it a one and done situation. Treat it like mf'ing jury duty. Make lobbying illegal and require all those drafted to have publicly posted financials while in office.


of course, none of that stands a chance in hell of happening.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

and to the point about what the founding father's intended... who the **** knows and how is it really relevant at this point? I myself have fallen into making that argument many times but really... who gives a **** what they intended when the world has advanced in ways they never could have foreseen? Why limit ourselves to the vision of 18th century colonists?

[QUOTE=BleedBurgundy;839928]Here's my suggestion: Make a career in politics a thing of the past. Fill representative posts via a draft and make it a form of service. Make sure the overall assembly is reflective of the demographics of those they are representing; socially, economically, professionally. Cap length of service to 3 or 4 years and make it a one and done situation. Treat it like mf'ing jury duty. Make lobbying illegal and require all those drafted to have publicly posted financials while in office.


of course, none of that stands a chance in hell of happening.[/QUOTE]

I hate to keep shooting things down, but the problem with this is the bureacracy would become even more powerful. The institutions of the government doesn't just shut and reload with all new characters.

You have to have politicians (ugh I will be sick saying that) but you have to limit influence by reducing bureacratic process. I would put pay caps on that encourage leaving to private sector jobs and possibly have a system where contributions go to a mass general fund with individuals and corporations specifying percentages for funding as opposed to direct contributions.

You have to limit terms, while allowing a sufficient rotation and length of service that our government remains sufficiently stable to encourage business and foreign relations. Personally I put caps at two terms across the board.

I am sure there are other things too.
.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;839943]I hate to keep shooting things down, but the problem with this is the bureacracy would become even more powerful. The institutions of the government doesn't just shut and reload with all new characters.

You have to have politicians (ugh I will be sick saying that) but you have to limit influence by reducing bureacratic process. I would put pay caps on that encourage leaving to private sector jobs and possibly have a system where contributions go to a mass general fund with individuals and corporations specifying percentages for funding as opposed to direct contributions.

You have to limit terms, while allowing a sufficient rotation and length of service that our government remains sufficiently stable to encourage business and foreign relations. Personally I put caps at two terms across the board.

I am sure there are other things too.
.[/quote]

it's all academic obviously, but with enough overlap and by massaging term limits you could account for the points you make.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

This is why the central government shouldn't have as much power as they do. 95% of politicians are douchebags. Let them ruin as little as possible.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

I think one of the worst things to ever happen to our political system was the ratification of the 17th amendment, it was one of those things that looks good and is easy to sell but once you got it home you realized your just got disenfranchised big time. I doubt that amendment will ever be repealed. But I think term limits for all federal politicians is something both Republican and Democrats like the idea of and could help solve a lot of the lost faith we all have in our Goverment including some of the issues the 17th amendment created.

In the meantime we have this:

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/reid-uses-nuclear-option-senate-setting-stage-more-140312605.html]Reid uses the ‘nuclear option’ in the Senate, setting stage for more partisan confrontation | The Ticket - Yahoo! News[/url]

more:

[url=http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/reid-rewrites-senate-rules-shocking-move]Reid rewrites Senate rules with shocking move | Campaign 2012[/url]

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=mlmpetert;845458]I think one of the worst things to ever happen to our political system was the ratification of the 17th amendment[B], it was one of those things that looks good and is easy to sell but once you got it home you realized your just got disenfranchised big time.[/B] I doubt that amendment will ever be repealed. But I think term limits for all federal politicians is something both Republican and Democrats like the idea of and could help solve a lot of the lost faith we all have in our Goverment including some of the issues the 17th amendment created.[/quote]

I am confused by this statement. Who are you asserting was disenfranchised by the requirement that senators be selected by direct popular vote rather than by the State legislature?

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;845487]I am confused by this statement. Who are you asserting was disenfranchised by the requirement that senators be selected by direct popular vote rather than by the State legislature?[/quote]

disenfranchised may be a harsh word, but what it has done has nationalized all elections, and the senators rather than being held with their foot to the fire by the state governor/legislature are now "bought" off with the same national lobbyist money that is spent on the house elections. I know why the 17th amendment was important as backroom politics ran rampant. But by putting all the elections to direct vote, you have taken away one level of protection from democracy for democracy sake. The senators now are no different then representatives, and they are beholden to the national PACs far more than they should be.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

The biggest problem is that everyone is in it for themself. Here in Va we Have Randy Forbes who says we need to cut gov but the minute it affects Va then he is all up in arms against the cuts. How the hell will we ever make cuts if everyone is not willing to help with those cuts. I'm willing.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

CRedskins, there are a couple of problems with term limits. First, why penalize the politicians who are actually competent and principled at their job? If a district is prospering as a result of their representative introducing legislation, then the voters have every right to send that member back to Congress for another term. Basically, you limit the pool of qualified candidates by doing this.

The other problem with term limits, and somewhat related to my first point, you can't have term limits unless you have meaningful lobbying reform. The people that lobby Congress are, in many cases, more seasoned than the freshmen members of Congress. It makes no sense to have special interests with all the knowledge, insight, and ability to get bills past. It takes years to understand how to get things done on the Hill. Understanding the energy markets, financial regulations and Wall Street, and simply building relationships that benefit you and your constituents take time. In other words, the learning curb can be steep depending on what part of the country you represent, especially if you sit on a committee. Which brings up another problem, do we want new committee members rotating every few years? Hell no.

Take agricultural for example. If I'm a farmer in the midwest I want a member of Congress who understands the nature of agriculture; the impact of weather and trade agreements may have on my crops. Quite different from the guy who has a district in Seattle, where it's not as specialized or the issues as sophisticated. My point is term limits cuts both ways and in some cases it's not as practical to change the players every few years and expect results and progress.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

The bottom line is, just like you can't create morality through legislation, you can't legislate or regulate an informed electorate into existence. You can regulate lobbiests, you can make term limits, BUT, if the voters don't take the time to investigate their governmental representatives (small "r"), then no amount of legislation is going to change things. Without the populous holding them accountable, lobbiests and corrupt politicians will simply find ways to manipulate and avoid the laws' and regulations' intent.

Listen to some of the comments on this board. Everyone is giving up. And this is from a cross-section of educated and generally well read individuals. In light of that, what chance is there for real reform or good governance. As more of us simply give up, it becomes harder and harder to change the status quo.

"Toute nation a le gouvernement qu’elle mérite" ("Every country has the government it deserves"). Joseph de Maistre, [I]Lettres et Opuscules Inédits[/I], Vol. 1, letter 53: Dated August 15, 1811 (Published in 1851).

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;845528]The bottom line is, just like you can't create morality through legislation, you can't legislate or regulate an informed electorate into existence. You can regulate lobbiests, you can make term limits, BUT, if the voters don't take the time to investigate their governmental representatives (small "r"), then no amount of legislation is going to change things. Without the populous holding them accountable, lobbiests and corrupt politicians will simply find ways to manipulate and avoid the laws' and regulations' intent.

Listen to some of the comments on this board. Everyone is giving up. And this is from a cross-section of educated and generally well read individuals. In light of that, what chance is there for real reform or good governance. As more of us simply give up, it becomes harder and harder to change the status quo.

"Toute nation a le gouvernement qu’elle mérite" ("Every country has the government it deserves"). Joseph de Maistre, [I]Lettres et Opuscules Inédits[/I], Vol. 1, letter 53: Dated August 15, 1811 (Published in 1851).[/quote]

Damn dude, you should be published. Seriously well said though.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=12thMan;845529]Damn dude, you should be published. Seriously well said though.[/quote]

I am published - everything I write is copyrighted. You owe me $22.57 for quoting me.

[j/k - Thanks for the compliment].

[QUOTE=JoeRedskin;845528]The bottom line is, just like you can't create morality through legislation, you can't legislate or regulate an informed electorate into existence. You can regulate lobbiests, you can make term limits, BUT, if the voters don't take the time to investigate their governmental representatives (small "r"), then no amount of legislation is going to change things. Without the populous holding them accountable, lobbiests and corrupt politicians will simply find ways to manipulate and avoid the laws' and regulations' intent.

Listen to some of the comments on this board. Everyone is giving up. And this is from a cross-section of educated and generally well read individuals. In light of that, what chance is there for real reform or good governance. As more of us simply give up, it becomes harder and harder to change the status quo.

"Toute nation a le gouvernement qu’elle mérite" ("Every country has the government it deserves"). Joseph de Maistre, [I]Lettres et Opuscules Inédits[/I], Vol. 1, letter 53: Dated August 15, 1811 (Published in 1851).[/QUOTE]

What you see as giving up, I see as calling for a reasonable change. I think most on here can agree to certain problems - the level of lobbyist influence, spending outstripping revenues, federal govt encroaching on individual and/or state freedoms-rights, etc. To say well you have the govt you deserve implies that this talk/discussion doesn't serve to further discourse and possibly change the direction that our govt is headed. Other than TTE who clearly had withdrawn from the electorate, I think everyone on here (or most everyone) votes. We need to discuss what can be done to bring the common problems into a resolution. Clearly a man in the senate-be it Byrd or Thurmond-that holds a seat for nearly 50 years needs to be limited but also you can't say 2 terms and leave the govt fully in the hands of entrenched bureaucrats and lobbyist. We need to civilly discuss what can be done. That does not mean that we have given up, only that we are highly dissatisfied with what is.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[url=http://hotair.com/archives/2011/10/19/oops-energy-department-contractors-caught-altering-old-press-releases-involving-another-troubled-green-energy-project/]Oops: Energy Department contractors caught altering old press releases involving another troubled green-energy project « Hot Air[/url]

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

I wanted to bump this thread (for obvious reasons) by posting this article that got lost in another thread:
[url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/kylesmith/2011/06/01/insider-trading-rules-that-dont-apply-to-congress/]Insider Trading Rules That Don't Apply To Congress - Forbes[/url]

The double standard is absolutely ridiculous

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

Who else didn't vote today because they don't believe a vote would help anything? I'm probably wrong for thinking like this, but I don't believe whoever gets elected to office will really accomplish anything, because in order for anything to be accomplished in gov't, you have to have people willing to work together to solve issues, and that is probably the furthest thing that comes to mind when I think of gov't, federal or local.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

^ I don't disagree. But billions of people around the world would love to vote for their government but can't. Just look at the Arab Spring - the major driving force was a desire of people to have a voice in their own affairs. For this reason I always vote. There is only one way to show gratitude for the right to vote, no matter how abortive things may work out practically.

As Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried."

Besides, as I see it, if you don't vote, you have no right to complain about how things work out later.

Re: Has Anyone Else Completely Lost Faith In The Government?
 

[quote=mooby;857338]Who else didn't vote today because they don't believe a vote would help anything? I'm probably wrong for thinking like this, but I don't believe whoever gets elected to office will really accomplish anything, because in order for anything to be accomplished in gov't, you have to have people willing to work together to solve issues, and that is probably the furthest thing that comes to mind when I think of gov't, federal or local.[/quote]

I actually think that true change can come from the smaller "off season" elections like the ones held today. It should be interesting and somewhat telling of how the 2012 elections may play out once we can see the results. However....

I actually abstain from voting by subscribing to the "Dont Vote or Die" movement (started right this second). Its a counter movement to p-diddy's Vote or Die movement where our core beliefs are that if you dont vote you will not die as a direct result. This may be unconventional and is a complete 180 from p-diddy's beliefs, but it resonates with our members nonetheless.

Imagine this:

[IMG]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_b8QEOIc5Eg0/SzDn8fxvzoI/AAAAAAAADMc/jGiFEJyeKJY/s400/No+sign.jpg[/IMG]

On top of this guy:

[IMG]http://mandmglobal.com/Libraries/Blog_images/vote_or_die2.sflb.ashx[/IMG]

Thats our symbol