There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

Previously banned islamist party 'Ennahda' has won the election in Tunisia. How long until we see this country as a shining example of what islam brings to humanity once Secularism has been abandoned?

Party leader, Mr. Ghannouchi, stated "[I]We believe that all Tunisian people can survive peacefully within a moderate vision of islam which can be compatible with democracy.[/I]"

There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible once islam sinks its fangs in.

Your thoughts?

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

two things.

1 - where is tunisia?
2 - is it Baba Ghannouchi? is the "i" silent?

on a serious note. its pretty sad to see just how quickly egypt has slipped into a non-tolerant islamic state with the uncontrolled violence agaisnt coptic christians that is being promoted by state television and the military.

just a matter of time before the coptics (which make up 10% or so of the population i believe) will just have to flee their homeland outright. but ofcourse we will continue to give them billions in aid and military equipment to play nice even though they clearly are not playing nice.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=RedskinRat;853049]Previously banned islamist party 'Ennahda' has won the election in Tunisia. How long until we see this country as a shining example of what islam brings to humanity once Secularism has been abandoned?

Party leader, Mr. Ghannouchi, stated "[I]We believe that all Tunisian people can survive peacefully within a moderate vision of islam which can be compatible with democracy.[/I]"

[B]There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible once islam sinks its fangs in.
[/B]
Your thoughts?[/quote]

Your statement is blatantly false. Turkey provides just one of several examples. Turkey has been a democracy for almost a century - since the end of WWI. Turkey is also a bastion of Islam, having provided the capital for the Ottoman empire (which was Muslim) and providing important Islamic pilgrimage sites, such as in Konya. Turkey is overwhelmingly Islamic in demographics and the Islamic presence is quite active. Yet Turkey remains a stable democracy which is an associate (and likely soon a full) member of the European Union.

There are several other examples which could be mentioned: Indonesia, India, Bangladesh, Mubarak's Egypt to a limited extent, and more.

And certainly you know that democratic theory is built right into Sunni Islam. That is, since Muhammad said, 'My community will never agree on an error," [I]ijma [/I]or democratic consensus has been a Sunni ideal since the beginning of the tradition.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=RedskinRat;853049]There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible once islam sinks its fangs in.

Your thoughts?[/quote]


You can say the same with any religion. You might want to add corporate influence into government as well. Both kill a true democracy.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Lotus;853071]Your statement is blatantly false. [/quote]

Which statement?

[quote=Lotus;853071]Turkey provides just one of several examples.[/quote]

By the good graces of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, Turkey has been a Secular (barely still due to the succesful lobbying of moslems) Republic since 29 October 1923. He ensured that Turkey was made a progressive [B]SECULAR[/B] country. Yes, the majority of Turkey is moslem but the full impact of that scourge is yet to be felt. Soon, very soon though. Just in time to complete the downfall of Europe.

[quote=Lotus;853071]There are several other examples which could be mentioned: Indonesia, India, Bangladesh, Mubarak's Egypt to a limited extent, and more.[/quote]

Indonesia is going through a period of religious turmoil as churches are attacked and then blocked from being rebuilt or repair in line with islamic tenets.

India? Hindu India?

Bangladesh? Where the High Court had to remind the majority moslem population back in '72 that they were a secular state because of the brutality meted out to women? That Bangladesh?

EGYPT??????? Home of the Moslem Brotherhood?

[quote=Lotus;853071]And certainly you know that democratic theory is built right into Sunni Islam.[/quote]

Which of the four established schools of sunni islam are you referring to? Also which philosophical tradition are you suggesting is the guiding light? Athari, Ash'ari or Maturidi? Democratic? GTFOOH!

[quote=Lotus;853071]That is, since Muhammad said, 'My community will never agree on an error," [I]ijma [/I]or democratic consensus has been a Sunni ideal since the beginning of the tradition.[/quote]

The huge, raging clue in that quote is the simple but telling phrase 'My community'.....Kufr beware!

Most Sunni (please feel free to correct me) use the Bukhari Hadith for guidance, correct?

Bukhari:V9B84N59 “[I]Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.[/I]’”

So to recap: You're wrong, couldn't be more wrong unless you were lying.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=RedskinRat;853118]Which statement?

By the good graces of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, Turkey has been a Secular (barely still due to the succesful lobbying of moslems) Republic since 29 October 1923. He ensured that Turkey was made a progressive [B]SECULAR[/B] country. Yes, the majority of Turkey is moslem but the full impact of that scourge is yet to be felt. Soon, very soon though. Just in time to complete the downfall of Europe.

Indonesia is going through a period of religious turmoil as churches are attacked and then blocked from being rebuilt or repair in line with islamic tenets.

India? Hindu India?

Bangladesh? Where the High Court had to remind the majority moslem population back in '72 that they were a secular state because of the brutality meted out to women? That Bangladesh?

EGYPT??????? Home of the Moslem Brotherhood?

Which of the four established schools of sunni islam are you referring to? Also which philosophical tradition are you suggesting is the guiding light? Athari, Ash'ari or Maturidi? Democratic? GTFOOH!

The huge, raging clue in that quote is the simple but telling phrase 'My community'.....Kufr beware!

Most Sunni (please feel free to correct me) use the Bukhari Hadith for guidance, correct?

Bukhari:V9B84N59 “[I]Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.[/I]’”

So to recap: You're wrong, couldn't be more wrong unless you were lying.[/quote]

1. Which statement? I guess the one which I [B]bolded[/B].

2. Correct, politically Turkey is a secular democracy. You are making my point here. It has been a secular democracy 88 years. It is also actively Muslim in terms of the religious practices of the population. Has been for about 1,000 years. Just because it is referred to politically as a "secular" democracy does not mean there is no religion. Therefore, as I type these words, Islam and democracy have a nearly century-long track record of being compatible in Turkey. So we see that when you said, "There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible," you were mistaken.

You can speculate about the future of Turkey all you want. But my argument is not built on speculation - I am providing hard evidence.

So my initial point, that you made a false statement, remains established. Evidence, not speculation, shows that it is simply untrue to say, "There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible." I will respond to the rest of your post just to defend myself:

3. Religious intolerance in Indonesia does not mean that Islam and democracy are incompatible there, just as religious intolerance in the USA does not mean that Christianity and democracy cannot coexist here. It just means that there are some intolerant people. When the mosque in Tennessee was burned last year, did that mean that Christianity and democracy are incompatible? No.

4. India. India consists of more than Hindus. There are more than 220 million Muslims in India, making India the world's third largest Muslim country. India is also a democracy. So 220 million Muslims in India coexist with democracy.

5. Bangladesh. Same argument as Indonesia. If the religious intolerance of some invalidates democracy then democracy does not exist anywhere on the planet. Religious intolerance exists in some form everywhere.

6. Egypt. Just because they have the Muslim Brotherhood does not mean that they haven't had democratic elections, albeit imperfect. Does the presence of the KKK make the USA not a democracy? No. You make a non-argument about Egypt.

7. The democratic impulse in Islam which I mentioned pre-dates the division into legal schools. Abu Bakr, who was the first caliph (or leader after Muhammad), was put in his position by democratic election. Thus democracy has remained a paradigmatic ideal because Abu Bakr was the first of the Rightly Guided Caliphs as well as Muhammad's bff. Later caliphs turned into hereditary monarchs but still had sham "elections" for their sons out of respect for this precedent. The hadith which you produced does not change this fact.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=RedskinRat;853049]Previously banned islamist party 'Ennahda' has won the election in Tunisia. How long until we see this country as a shining example of what islam brings to humanity once Secularism has been abandoned?

Party leader, Mr. Ghannouchi, stated "[I]We believe that all Tunisian people can survive peacefully within a moderate vision of islam which can be compatible with democracy.[/I]"

There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible once islam sinks its fangs in.

Your thoughts?[/quote]

you sectist! wasn't iran a flourishing democracy until britian and the good ol USA dropped by in the 1950s to blow it up and install a puppet regime so the brits could continue to suck out the country's oil without paying them anything remotely near fair?

maybe we should wait and see. You know, we have muslims here that like democracy too. funny thing, that liberty.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=RedskinRat;853118]

Bukhari:V9B84N59 “[I]Allah’s Apostle said, ‘I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: “None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.” Whoever says this will save his property and his life from me.[/I]’”

So to recap: You're wrong, couldn't be more wrong unless you were lying.[/quote]

do you REALLY want to start bible wars? you knows the bible says that divorced women can never re-marry, that rape is the victim's fault and that a women who cheats (including rape victims) should be stoned to death right? pre-martial sex - stoning. using the lords name in vain - stoning. [B]worshipping another god[/B] - stoning (hmm that's funny, and eerily like your worthless arguement). disobeying your parents - stoning. breaking sabbath - stoning. and of course, as it is written, it shall be done.


if you want book/verses, here:
[URL="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1kg/21.html#10"][COLOR=#0066cc]1 Kings 21:10[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/15.html#32"][COLOR=#0066cc]Numbers 15:32-56[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/21.html#18"][COLOR=#0066cc]Deuteronomy 21:18-21[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/13.html#5"][COLOR=#0066cc]Deuteronomy 13:5-10[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/17.html#2"][COLOR=#0066cc]Deuteronomy 17:2-5[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/22.html#13"][COLOR=#0066cc]Deuteronomy 22:13-21[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/22.html#23"][COLOR=#0066cc]Deuteronomy 22:23-24[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/24.html#16"][COLOR=#0066cc]Leviticus 24:16[/COLOR][/URL]


Its amazing how so much of the vocal anti-islam crowd is soo very ignorant of the parallels in the bible - this is a "christian democracy" more or less if your talking about general morals and majority beliefs and all that.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

You realize that the old testament is viewed as a "Historical" record and the New is viewed as the information with which to live your life......

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=That Guy;853131]Its amazing how so much of the vocal anti-islam crowd is soo very ignorant of the parallels in the bible - this is a "christian democracy" more or less if your talking about general morals and majority beliefs and all that.[/quote]As Hog1 mentioned, all Old Testament verses you're quoting. Nothing but contrasts in the New Testament.

Try being a Jew or Christian in the Muslim "democracies". Hint; do a little research on the Copts in Egypt.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

I thought someone found out we are buying a lot in their neighborhood.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;853151]As Hog1 mentioned, all Old Testament verses you're quoting. Nothing but contrasts in the New Testament.

[B]Try being a Jew or Christian in the Muslim "democracies". Hint; do a little research on the Copts in Egpt.[/B][/quote]

You are correct that the Copts, and others, suffer repression in some Muslim lands. That is a reprehensible reality.

But it is also true that Muslims suffer intolerance and discrimination, sometimes violently, in France, the UK, the USA, and other "Christian" places. Religious intolerance is sadly ubiquitous. So the problem is not just Islam vs. democracy.

Put differently, if the presence of religious intolerance indicates "incompatibility" with democracy then democracy is incompatible everywhere on the planet.

The problem is that unfortunately there are close-minded, hate-filled, and sometimes violent people everywhere.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Lotus;853173]You are correct that the Copts, and others, suffer repression in some Muslim lands. That is a reprehensible reality.

But it is also true that Muslims suffer intolerance and discrimination, sometimes violently, in France, the UK, the USA, and other "Christian" places. Religious intolerance is sadly ubiquitous. So the problem is not just Islam vs. democracy.

Put differently, if the presence of religious intolerance indicates "incompatibility" with democracy then democracy is incompatible everywhere on the planet.

[B]The problem is that unfortunately there are close-minded, hate-filled, and sometimes violent people everywhere[/B].[/quote]

No, that is not the problem with me, the people that I know and I do not believe this country as a whole. I doubt that is the problem in the UK, France as well. And at what time does discrimination and intolerance open the door for mass murder.....Repeatedly and unendingly in the name of Allah??
I am tired of the terrorist nature of the Jihadist hiding behind some idiotic pretense of the Islamic religion while they bomb, execute and maim innocents (Oh and I left out "behead" on the internet) without regard to woman...and even children. That is the problem with the......Peaceful nature of the Muslim....
Do all Muslims fit in that category...NO. I am sure they are but a small percentage, but they are being allowed to speak and act for the many millions that are truly peace loving.
I personally could care less who you are or what you believe. Be a good neighbor, Don't kill people, Don't F.. with anybody...have a nice day.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;853178]No, that is not the problem with me, the people that I know and I do not believe this country as a whole. I doubt that is the problem in the UK, France as well. And at what time does discrimination and intolerance open the door for mass murder.....Repeatedly and unendingly in the name of Allah??
I am tired of the terrorist nature of the Jihadist hiding behind some idiotic pretense of the Islamic religion while they bomb, execute and maim innocents (Oh and I left out "behead" on the internet) without regard to woman...and even children. [/quote]


I think you just described the Catholic church and christianity since it's induction into humanity. Irony to say the least.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

Wrong then...........Wrong now....

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;853178]No, that is not the problem with me, the people that I know and I do not believe this country as a whole. I doubt that is the problem in the UK, France as well. And at what time does discrimination and intolerance open the door for mass murder.....Repeatedly and unendingly in the name of Allah??
I am tired of the terrorist nature of the Jihadist hiding behind some idiotic pretense of the Islamic religion while they bomb, execute and maim innocents (Oh and I left out "behead" on the internet) without regard to woman...and even children. That is the problem with the......Peaceful nature of the Muslim....
Do all Muslims fit in that category...NO. I am sure they are but a small percentage, but they are being allowed to speak and act for the many millions that are truly peace loving.
I personally could care less who you are or what you believe. Be a good neighbor, Don't kill people, Don't F.. with anybody...have a nice day.[/quote]

I agree that Islamic terrorism is a terrible scourge.

But what was mentioned above is something different: local neighborhood anti-Coptic repression in Egypt and similar realities. This problem is structurally similar to mosque burnings in Tennessee. It is a problem of local intolerance rather than global terrorism.

In the end I agree with you. Violence resulting from religious intolerance has no place in any society.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=lotus;853190]i agree that islamic terrorism is a terrible scourge.

But what was mentioned above is something different: Local neighborhood anti-coptic repression in egypt and similar realities. This problem is structurally similar to mosque burnings in tennessee. It is a problem of local intolerance rather than global terrorism.

In the end i agree with you. [b]violence resulting from religious intolerance has no place in any society.[/b][/quote]
^^^^^^^^^
httr.....

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;853151]As Hog1 mentioned, all Old Testament verses you're quoting. Nothing but contrasts in the New Testament.

Try being a Jew or Christian in the Muslim "democracies". Hint; do a little research on the Copts in Egypt.[/quote]

Copts in Egypt are nothing like evangelicals in America. Two totally different religions.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

This is a nut case thread in my opinion.

allow me to quote Lil Wayne Carter IV "gorillas in suits, the holy war the spiritual troops, fighting over the mythical truth, drowning in the political soup, they shoot missile and nukes, taking out such a pivotal group, the body count is the physical proof, and they thought drugs were killing the youth" hahahaha

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;853180]Wrong then...........Wrong now....[/quote]

How exactly is it wrong?

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=NC_Skins;853218]How exactly is it wrong?[/quote]
That persecution and violence in the name of religion will always be wrong.....

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;853225]That persecution and violence in the name of religion will always be wrong.....[/quote]

Ahh...misunderstood what you were saying.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;853148]You realize that the old testament is viewed as a "Historical" record and the New is viewed as the information with which to live your life......[/quote]

you realize that randomly quoting the koran or whatnot and assuming literal interpretation and then using selective interpretation on the other holy book is is a bit convenient though...

look! they're saying awful things! I mean, we say awful things too, but we don't mean it.

besides, if you're looking for muslim oppression of competing religions, you should cite spain where they started with equality and then systematically took away all the rights of those that would not convert. Funny that that's the same country that created the inquisition - I guess religious tolerance just wasn't part of the local geography.

Intolerance is intolerance and it's wrong regardless of who's in charge. saying islam isn't compatible with democracy is a real stretch and unless you've actually studied a koran or go to a mosque, I'd be careful about randomly couched quotes with no context of whether they're widely taught by the moderates of that religion.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

by the way, when the black plague hit europe, do you know the first thing they did?




they started killing jews. Those christians just can't be trusted :P

[QUOTE=That Guy] Intolerance is intolerance and it's wrong regardless of who's in charge. saying islam isn't compatible with democracy is a real stretch and unless you've actually studied a koran or go to a mosque, I'd be careful about randomly couched quotes with no context of whether they're widely taught by the moderates of that religion.[/QUOTE]

A lesson someone here never learns.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=That Guy;853238]you realize that randomly quoting the koran or whatnot and assuming literal interpretation and then using selective interpretation on the other holy book is is a bit convenient though...

look! they're saying awful things! I mean, we say awful things too, but we don't mean it.

besides, if you're looking for muslim oppression of competing religions, you should cite spain where they started with equality and then systematically took away all the rights of those that would not convert. Funny that that's the same country that created the inquisition - I guess religious tolerance just wasn't part of the local geography.

[B]Intolerance is intolerance and it's wrong regardless of who's in charge.[/B] saying islam isn't compatible with democracy is a real stretch and unless you've actually studied a koran or go to a mosque, I'd be careful about randomly couched quotes with no context of whether they're widely taught by the moderates of that religion.[/quote]
[I]I believe you area bit confused as I have not actually quoted anything you warn me against.....and I can ASSURE you Sir I would never couch a quote.....either randomly or specifically.

[/I]

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;853280][I]I believe you area bit confused as I have not actually quoted anything you warn me against.....and I can ASSURE you Sir I would never couch a quote.....either randomly or specifically.

[/I][/quote]

Yeah, I think that part of That Guy's otherwise fine post really was meant for Redskin Rat, not you.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Lotus;853173]But it is also true that Muslims suffer intolerance and discrimination, sometimes violently, in France, the UK, the USA, and other "Christian" places. Religious intolerance is sadly ubiquitous. So the problem is not just Islam vs. democracy.[/quote]The difference in France, UK, and here is that people that perpetrate violence against others in the name of religion are treated as they should be....as criminals.

In many Muslim countries violence against those of other religions is sometimes either sanctioned by the gov't or purposely not investigated/prosecuted.

[quote]The problem is that unfortunately there are close-minded, hate-filled, and sometimes violent people everywhere.[/quote]Agree, very true and very unfortunate.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

When did democracy become synonymous with christianity and the west? Did I miss the class where they taught the greeks were jesus worshiping and blond blue eyed much like him?

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Slingin Sammy 33;853289]The difference in France, UK, and here is that people that perpetrate violence against others in the name of religion are treated as they should be....as criminals.

In many Muslim countries violence against those of other religions is sometimes either sanctioned by the gov't or purposely not investigated/prosecuted.

Agree, very true and very unfortunate.[/quote]

I agree with the part about problems with government collusion.

Ex-regimes in both Egypt and Tunisia had reps for repressing Islam. Once the regimes fell, a great deal of pro-Islamic emotion was released. Some of this emotion is wholesome but some is dysfunctional.

For example, the feeling among some Muslims in Egypt was that Mubarak went easy on Copts and several Copts had seats in Mubarak's government. So to hate Mubarak, to some people, is to hate Copts. To erase Mubarak's legacy is to erase Copts. The same reality exists for Egypt's Jews.

However, in both Egypt and Tunisia there are sizeable numbers of folks who prefer secular democracy to either an Iranian Islamic model or, in the cases we are discussing, mob rule by Islam. The Arab Spring revolts were driven more by a striving for democracy than they were driven by calls for Islamic government. As emotions settle, the questions will be less "How to we erase traces of Mubarak or Ben Ali?" and more "How do we create a beneficial new society?" There is every reason to believe that moderates and toleration will then gain more voice and more power and the current ugliness will subside.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Lotus;853295]There is every reason to believe that moderates and toleration will then gain more voice and more power and the current ugliness will subside.[/quote]I pray you are correct in your optimism.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Hog1;853280][I]I believe you area bit confused as I have not actually quoted anything you warn me against.....and I can ASSURE you Sir I would never couch a quote.....either randomly or specifically.[/I]

[/quote]

I don't believe you did and I'm not accusing you of such ;)

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]2. Correct, politically Turkey is a secular democracy. You are making my point here. It has been a secular democracy 88 years. [/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]It's been a secular Democracy [I]despite[/I] not [I]because[/I] of islam.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]It is also actively Muslim in terms of the religious practices of the population. Has been for about 1,000 years. Just because it is referred to politically as a "secular" democracy does not mean there is no religion. [/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Agreed.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]Therefore, as I type these words, Islam and democracy have a nearly century-long track record of being compatible in Turkey.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Wholly incompatible, at odds and in a prolonged power struggle which islam is now beginning to win.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]So we see that when you said, "There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible," you were mistaken. .[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]You have still not given an example of islam and Democracy being compatible. It's generally a Theocracy with the facade of democracy.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]You can speculate about the future of Turkey all you want. But my argument is not built on speculation - I am providing hard evidence..[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]You have provided no evidence, merely your opinion.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]So my initial point, that you made a false statement, remains established. [/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Only in your opinion.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]Evidence, not speculation, shows that it is simply untrue to say, "There's no example of islam and Democracy being compatible." I will respond to the rest of your post just to defend myself:[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR][quote=Lotus;853119]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]3. Religious intolerance in Indonesia does not mean that Islam and democracy are incompatible there, just as religious intolerance in the USA does not mean that Christianity and democracy cannot coexist here. It just means that there are some intolerant people. When the mosque in Tennessee was burned last year, did that mean that Christianity and democracy are incompatible? No.[/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]As islam is a political system as well as being a cult I don't think your comparison is valid. One mosque in Tennessee? Compared to the worldwide stealth imposition of the Pact of Umar? Now I'll be the first to admit a lot of mosques worldwide get destroyed, but it's by moslem-on-moslem violence. Rarely is it by another religious group or my lot.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]4. India. India consists of more than Hindus. There are more than 220 million Muslims in India, making India the world's third largest Muslim country. India is also a democracy. So 220 million Muslims in India coexist with democracy.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Most give the figure as 165M but even at 220M they are still less than 15% to 80% + Hindu. Nice use of a large number to give credence to your claim. How did Pakistan come to be partitioned from India? If you'd like an instant replay observe Kashmir. More overwhelming evidence that moslems, when they reach a certain %, cease playing 'nice'. Cline's observation, from 2008 (I think):[/FONT][/COLOR]
[I][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Below two percent Muslims are well-behaved citizens and cause little apparent trouble for the host society. [/FONT][/COLOR][/I]
[I][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]At two percent and three percent Muslims begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. [/FONT][/COLOR][/I]
[I][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]From five percent on Muslims exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. They push for the introduction of halal ("clean" by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves--along with threats for failure to comply (United States, Switzerland, Sweden). At this point, Muslims work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, or Islamic law. (England, Netherlands, Philippines). [/FONT][/COLOR][/I]
[I][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]When Muslims reach 10 percent of the population, they increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris--car burning). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam, Denmark--Mohammed cartoons, murder of Theo van Gogh). [/FONT][/COLOR][/I]
[I][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]After reaching 20 percent of a population expect hair-trigger rioting, Jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning (Indonesia, Ethiopia). [/FONT][/COLOR][/I]
[I][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]After 40 percent you find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare (Bosnia, Chad). [/FONT][/COLOR][/I]
[I][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]From 60 percent you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and jizya, the tax placed on [conquered] infidels (Sudan, Albania). [/FONT][/COLOR][/I]
[I][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]After 80 percent, expect to find state-run ethnic cleansing and genocide (Syria, Egypt, UAE). [/FONT][/COLOR][/I]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]5. Bangladesh. Same argument as Indonesia. If the religious intolerance of some invalidates democracy then democracy does not exist anywhere on the planet. Religious intolerance exists in some form everywhere.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]And you'll get the same answer. The madrassars are the lifeblood of radical (or to me mainstream, old-school) islam and the supposed moderate form is just a convenient facade for jizya from unsuspecting Western states.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]6. Egypt. Just because they have the Muslim Brotherhood does not mean that they haven't had democratic elections, albeit imperfect. Does the presence of the KKK make the USA not a democracy? No. You make a non-argument about Egypt.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]When has the KKK represented 39% of the voting public in an election? That's what the hilariously named Freedom and Justice Party are at right now and that's with almost 40% 'undecided'. That was a Straw Man and a pretty weak one too.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;853119]7. The democratic impulse in Islam which I mentioned pre-dates the division into legal schools. Abu Bakr, who was the first caliph (or leader after Muhammad), was put in his position by democratic election. Thus democracy has remained a paradigmatic ideal because Abu Bakr was the first of the Rightly Guided Caliphs as well as Muhammad's bff. Later caliphs turned into hereditary monarchs but still had sham "elections" for their sons out of respect for this precedent. The hadith which you produced does not change this fact.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]What kind of representation do women get under this 'democracy'? And Dhimmis? [/FONT][/COLOR]

[I][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Riiiiiight![/FONT][/COLOR][/I]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I sincerely apologize for taking so long to respond, I am able to look in anonymously on WP but can't post. I eagerly await your response.[/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Lotus;853190]But what was mentioned above is something different: local neighborhood anti-Coptic repression in Egypt and similar realities. This problem is structurally similar to mosque burnings in Tennessee. It is a problem of local intolerance rather than global terrorism.
[/quote]

Anti-Copt repression in Egypt is part of the Pact of Umar and imposition of Dhimmitude as I previously mentioned and nothing to do with, or to be falsely be compared to, [B]ONE[/B] mosque getting burnt out by some idiot white supremacists.

Mosque [B][I]burnings[/I][/B]? Rhetoric at its finest! I'm now convinced that Lotus is part of the problem.

Look up the FBI stats on hate crimes, see who's at the top with 72%.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

Redskin Rat, once again the only problem is that you refuse to admit when you are wrong.

Let's leaving aside other examples which only serve to confuse you and focus on just one example. Turkey has been both democratic and Islamic for 88 years. Therefore your statement that there are no examples of the compatibility of Islam and democracy has an 88 year track record of being wrong. IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE.

Intelligent conversation involves changing one's notion to fit the evidence. Yet again and again you fit the evidence to meet you preconceived notions.

There is no further point in my arguing with someone who ignores examples which do not fit their preconceived notions. There is no further point in my arguing with someone who uses outdated concepts and outdated statistics. But most of all, there is no further point in my arguing with someone who refuses to admit when they are patently mistaken.

The rest of this thread is full of posters who have intelligent things to say. I don't always agree with them but at least they are engaging in good-faith intelligent conversation. I see no point in dragging that conversation down by responding to you further.

As one last note, once again you have launched a personal attack against me rather than admit that you are mistaken. That is a pretty sucky thing to do. It conversation with you less than pointless.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;855162]Redskin Rat, once again the only problem is that you refuse to admit when you are wrong.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]So at least I'm consistent, right?[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Are you even reading my rebuttals or is your bias just clouding your ability to look at anyone else’s opinion as anything other than invalid?[/FONT][/COLOR]

[quote=Lotus;855162][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Let's leaving aside other examples which only serve to confuse you[/FONT][/COLOR][/quote]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I'm far from confused, sweetie.....[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;855162] and focus on just one example. Turkey has been both democratic and Islamic for 88 years. Therefore your statement that there are no examples of the compatibility of Islam and democracy has an 88 year track record of being wrong. IT IS JUST THAT SIMPLE.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]As I previously stated '[I][B][U]despite[/U][/B][/I]' islam. There has been a ongoing and aggressive attempt at de-democratizing Turkey halted only by the military/secular powers. To argue otherwise is to either be so ignorant of the situation that your opinion should not be taken seriously or that it's a deliberate attempt at misinformation.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;855162]Intelligent conversation involves changing one's notion to fit the evidence. Yet again and again you fit the evidence to meet you preconceived notions.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Until I agree with your position I doubt that you'd see my side as intelligent. See my next statement.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;855162]There is no further point in my arguing with someone who ignores examples which do not fit their preconceived notions. There is no further point in my arguing with someone who uses outdated concepts and outdated statistics. But most of all, there is no further point in my arguing with someone who refuses to admit when they are patently mistaken.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Classic argument from an 'educator', my sister-in-law pulls that shit all the time when she's losing her position.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;855162]The rest of this thread is full of posters who have intelligent things to say.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Sure.......<rolls_eyes>[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;855162]I don't always agree with them[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Most of us (judging by this forum) can barely agree on how to support our team![/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;855162].... but at least they are engaging in good-faith intelligent conversation. I see no point in dragging that conversation down by responding to you further.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Then don't, you've failed at every opportunity to actually SUBSTANTIATE your position. Just telling me you're right isn't the kind of evidence I'll accept.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][quote=Lotus;855162]As one last note, once again you have launched a personal attack against me rather than admit that you are mistaken. That is a pretty sucky thing to do. It conversation with you less than pointless.[/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Personal attack? Saying ([I][FONT=Verdana]tongue-n-cheek[/FONT][/I]) that you are part of the problem? You CAN'T be THAT sensitive.......[/FONT][/COLOR]

'Sucky'.......**** sake!

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=Lotus;853295]However, in both Egypt and Tunisia there are sizeable numbers of folks who prefer secular democracy to either an Iranian Islamic model or, in the cases we are discussing, mob rule by Islam. [B]The Arab Spring revolts were driven more by a striving for democracy than they were driven by calls for Islamic government[/B]. As emotions settle, the questions will be less "How to we erase traces of Mubarak or Ben Ali?" and more "How do we create a beneficial new society?" [B]There is every reason to believe that moderates and toleration will then gain more voice and more power and the current ugliness will subside[/B].[/quote]Hindsight is always 20/20 and I understand being hopeful for peace, however the widespread violence we are seeing brings us back to the reality I feared with the "Arab Spring" that violent Islamic, anti-American, factions would take over these countries and make the ME a much more dangerous place....particularly for non-Muslims and moderate Muslims

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

Don't you just love religion. Look at our omnipotent deity working in mysterious ways! Isn't it glorious? Praise jeebus. Also, way to go America for sticking your collective nose where it doesn't belong for decades. That policy is clearly working out for you. You should stick with that.

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

[quote=BleedBurgundy;940307][B][I]Don't you just love religion[/I][/B]. Look at our omnipotent deity working in mysterious ways! Isn't it glorious? Praise jeebus. Also, way to go America for sticking your collective nose where it doesn't belong for decades. That policy is clearly working out for you. You should stick with that.[/quote]This is clearly a problem with "religion" overall, not violent Islamic extremist factions. I was just watching the news reports of violent mobs of Christians, Jews, Buhdists, moderate Muslims, etc. storming the Egyptian and Libyan embassies here in the U.S. in retaliation.

Last I checked the U.S. was providing many countries in the ME with billions (aggregate) in aid to improve people's standard of living and attempt to promote human rights.....bad U.S., very bad!


:frusty:

Re: There goes the neighborhood - Tunisia Edition
 

i hate people who don't share my beliefs and values, they're obviously all evil.