Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

Here's an amazing story about one of the greats Ponzi Schemes of all time. This thing reads like a screenplay starting DeCaprio. It's a long read but well wroth it. The greed, the lies, the banks, the hedge funds, the politicians, the churches, the hucksters, the forger, the auditors, the love affair....goodness, there's so many interesting piece on the board and to pull it all off as long as he did? Wow!

[url=http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/magazine/96713/petters-ponzi-scheme?passthru=YzNkMjMzOWI2ZTg3OWQ1NTg4NmRjMjY5NzY5NmI1NWE]An Entrepreneur, A Born-Again Ex-Con, And The Pols Who Championed Them: The Untold Story Of A $36 Billion Swindle | The New Republic[/url]

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

Never could stand those damn Poniz.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

Is a "poniz scheme" when a girl conspires to obtain little horses?

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

Poniz was one of the cops from CHIPS.

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This would be more interesting to read I suppose if I had a subscription so I could read the whole article

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

Hmmm....I read it using the link above without needing a subscription.

Here's it is from another site:
[url=http://www.theinvestigativefund.org/investigations/corporateaccountability/1571/the_turnaround_men/?page=entire]The Turnaround Men | Corporate Accountability | The Investigative Fund[/url]

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

Better. Will read it later today

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

I think they should expand the death penalty for people like this. People look at murder as being a heinous crime, but economic devastation is much worse than murder. With murder, it's fast and the person doesn't suffer. With economic devastation, the people suffer greatly and for long periods. (lifetime even) People lose their homes, their jobs.



Also, I hope you can see why I'm so adamant about corporate money being out of politician hands. Why isn't Bachmann having to give that money back? So if some bank robber gave me 100,000 after he robbed a bank, he doesn't have to give it back? You see why I'm angry at my government? The corruption.


They should also take the right, for Presidents to pardon people, away from that position. I was pissed off when Clinton pardoned that guy after his family dropped a huge sum of money into his library. It's sickening.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=NC_Skins;855366][B]I think they should expand the death penalty for people like this. People look at murder as being a heinous crime, but economic devastation is much worse than murder.[/B] With murder, it's fast and the person doesn't suffer. With economic devastation, the people suffer greatly and for long periods. (lifetime even) People lose their homes, their jobs.



Also, I hope you can see why I'm so adamant about corporate money being out of politician hands. Why isn't Bachmann having to give that money back? So if some bank robber gave me 100,000 after he robbed a bank, he doesn't have to give it back? You see why I'm angry at my government? The corruption.


They should also take the right, for Presidents to pardon people, away from that position. I was pissed off when Clinton pardoned that guy after his family dropped a huge sum of money into his library. It's sickening.[/quote]

Actually the death penalty is a form of economic devastation. Contrary to the beliefs of many, it is much cheaper to give someone a life sentence than it is to put someone to death. So, for example, New Jersey was able to balance its budget in part because it abolished the death penalty. A study done in Florida showed that the state could save $51 million a year by abolishing the death penalty.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=Lotus;855375]Actually the death penalty is a form of economic devastation. Contrary to the beliefs of many, it is much cheaper to give someone a life sentence than it is to put someone to death. So, for example, New Jersey was able to balance its budget in part because it abolished the death penalty. A study done in Florida showed that the state could save $51 million a year by abolishing the death penalty.[/quote]


Not if you use one of these.

[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yoaTaFMUuVY/SbRfCAbq31I/AAAAAAAAAMk/9lRuV8xbezA/s400/guillotine.jpg[/IMG]


I'm all for public executions as well. So much for me being a liberal. :cheeky-sm


I knew that fact by the way, still doesn't change anything. There is no reason why it should cost that much to carry out a death sentence.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=NC_Skins;855377]Not if you use one of these.

[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yoaTaFMUuVY/SbRfCAbq31I/AAAAAAAAAMk/9lRuV8xbezA/s400/guillotine.jpg[/IMG]


I'm all for public executions as well. So much for me being a liberal. :cheeky-sm


I knew that fact by the way, still doesn't change anything. There is no reason why it should cost that much to carry out a death sentence.[/quote]

The reason why the death penalty is more expensive has little to do with the method of execution. It has to do with the fact that you have to be sure to be right before issuing a death sentence. We can't be putting innocent people to death (although we sometimes still do). This means expensive trials and inevitable appeals. So one study showed that each death penalty court case costs between $3 million and $4 million. The price to keep someone in maximum security prison for life costs about $750,000. So the death penalty is 4 to 5 times more expensive per case.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=Lotus;855375]Actually the death penalty is a form of economic devastation. Contrary to the beliefs of many, it is much cheaper to give someone a life sentence than it is to put someone to death. So, for example, New Jersey was able to balance its budget in part because it abolished the death penalty. A study done in Florida showed that the state could save $51 million a year by abolishing the death penalty.[/quote]

Plus it's just barbaric and the ultimate in hypocrisy.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=Lotus;855381]The reason why the death penalty is more expensive has little to do with the method of execution. It has to do with the fact that you have to be sure to be right before issuing a death sentence. We can't be putting innocent people to death (although we sometimes still do). This means expensive trials and inevitable appeals. So one study showed that each death penalty court case costs between $3 million and $4 million. The price to keep someone in maximum security prison for life costs about $750,000. So the death penalty is 4 to 5 times more expensive per case.[/quote]

This still wouldn't amount the type of economic devastation that is caused by these jerk offs. I'm willing to take a 3-4 million dollar hit to send a message to anybody out there wanting to bilk billions from people to fund their posh lifestyle. You die.

I agree with making sure a person is innocent, but I'm only for the death penalty in cases where it's clear and overwhelming evidence to support the crime. I'm not talking circumstantial evidence like the Casey Anthony trial.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=Mattyk;855386]Plus it's just barbaric and the ultimate in hypocrisy.[/quote]


I've stated this before. I don't respond to bullies well. You kill a person because you were trying to rob him, or you plan the murder because you want their money or don't want to be married to them anymore. You die. It's a simple "eye for a eye" retribution. You call it barbaric or hypocrisy, I call it justice and retribution. I believe in protecting my own through whatever means necessary.


Guys that create this type of economic devastation also deserve to die. (add Wall Street bankers in there as well)

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

I am taking bets on this thread now having more posts on:

choices and odds below:

Ponzi schemes..................... 1000-1
Death Penalty...................... 10-1
Little girls and ponies............ 80-1
Pies................................... 100-1

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmvDasFJmfY]Little girl riding pony bridleless, bareback (+rearing, spanish walk, laying down, sit...) - YouTube[/ame]

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

Ponzi schemes ... bad.
Little girls and ponies ... good.
Pies ... well, duh.

Oh, and NC_Skins is just wrong - as usual.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

I think NC_Skins isn't as wrong on this one though. Economic crimes should be able to carry more weight at sentencing because of the number of people affected. But if the death penalty lawsuit costs are cost prohibitive now, imagine a DA trying to push it through against a corporate CEO's legal defense team. Even if legal, states simply would never try it, for fear of bankruptcy. And that's using government lawyers fees LOL!!!

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[quote=JoeRedskin;855399]Ponzi schemes ... bad.
Little girls and ponies ... good.
Pies ... well, duh.

[B]Oh, and NC_Skins is just wrong - as usual[/B].[/quote]


How so?

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=NC_Skins;855387]This still wouldn't amount the type of economic devastation that is caused by these jerk offs. I'm willing to take a [B]3-4 million dollar hit [/B]to send a message to anybody out there wanting to bilk billions from people to fund their posh lifestyle. You die.

I agree with making sure a person is innocent, but [B]I'm only for the death penalty in cases where it's clear and overwhelming evidence[/B] to support the crime. I'm not talking circumstantial evidence like the Casey Anthony trial.[/quote]

ALL potential death penalty cases require clear and overwhelming evidence. In fact, they require these things at several levels including appeals. That is why they are more expensive. With your argument you just implicitly called for more expensive trials.

Also, it is a $3-4million hit PER CASE. Add 'em up and it gets pretty expensive.

Or we can put folks in maximum security for life. Then they can't hurt anyone any more, you and I as taxpayers save money, and the criminal spends the rest of his life fearing the reality of dropping soap in the shower.

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[quote=Mattyk;855386]Plus it's just barbaric and the ultimate in hypocrisy.[/quote]

Right on as always Matty.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;855392]I am taking bets on this thread now having more posts on:

choices and odds below:

Ponzi schemes..................... 1000-1
Death Penalty...................... 10-1
Little girls and ponies............ 80-1
Pies................................... 100-1[/quote]

What if we talk about executing little girls with ponies by drowning them in pie filling? :)

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[quote=Lotus;855422]ALL potential death penalty cases require clear and overwhelming evidence. In fact, they require these things at several levels including appeals. That is why they are more expensive. With your argument you just implicitly called for more expensive trials.

Also, it is a $3-4million hit PER CASE. Add 'em up and it gets pretty expensive.

Or we can put folks in maximum security for life. T[U]hen they can't hurt anyone any more,[/U] you and I as taxpayers save money, and the criminal spends the rest of his life fearing the reality of dropping soap in the shower.[/quote]

Not sure what I called for would be most expensive. I mean clear cut as in "they have you on camera/film shooting a person". You admit to killing said person and evidence backs up the testimony. Those types of cases would be cheaper if anything. There is generally no defense to a cases like these.

Well, we spend billions of dollars a year blowing up brown people, so what's a couple million per death penalty? A drop in the bucket. In fact, lets divert some of that defense spending over to executing criminals that deserve it.

I realize it's costly, but it's not 36 billion dollars costly like this man's Ponzi scheme.


Anyway, lets steer this subject back to the Ponzi scheme and how sickening this is that politicians take hand outs from guys like this and don't have to give the money back.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

I haven't had any good Key Lime pie in a long time.

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We had a office celebration day where everyone signed up to bring in a food. I signed up for the apple pie and brought in 8 hot pies from mcdonalds. It cost me 4 dollars and i didn't even have to get out of my car. Everyone still gives me a hard time about it at work :(

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;855402]I think NC_Skins isn't as wrong on this one though. [B]Economic crimes should be able to carry more weight at sentencing because of the number of people affected. [/B] But if the death penalty lawsuit costs are cost prohibitive now, imagine a DA trying to push it through against a corporate CEO's legal defense team. Even if legal, states simply would never try it, for fear of bankruptcy. And that's using government lawyers fees LOL!!![/quote]

I agree. White collar crimes should carry stiffer sentencing b/c of the number of people they effect, the difficulty in prosecuting them and the chilling effect it would have on executives in their decisions (I may be wrong, but I believe executives would be more responsive to deterrent sentencing b/c they are more likely to respond to the risk/reward analysis necessary for deterrence to be effective than a criminal committing a violent crime of opportunity).

As for the death penalty being imposed when no one has been killed - well, that's beyond an eye for an eye. Deprive them of their liberty for the rest of their life (w/out chance of parole) in an appropriately un-posh jail and I am all good with that.

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=mlmpetert;855446]We had a office celebration day where everyone signed up to bring in a food. I signed up for the apple pie and brought in 8 hot pies from mcdonalds. It cost me 4 dollars and i didn't even have to get out of my car. Everyone still gives me a hard time about it at work :([/quote]

^^ deserves a death penalty too!!


:spank: :boxing: :hater: :cussing:

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

[quote=NC_Skins;855411]How so?[/quote]

In the usual ways - oversimplification of the problems you identify and solutions you propose, displaying a superficial knowledge of the philisophical, factual and historical positions you advocate or attack - that sort of thing.

Let's roll back the justice system to a 4000 year old vengence oriented system - good plan. Wouldn't want moral and/or ethical evolution to get in the way of a good hanging!

Re: Politics and Poniz Schemes
 

I do agree that any of the ill-gotten gains that can be traced should be returned.

I would imagine that tracking the funds received from Petters or groups he fronted, while not simple, should not be an impossible task. I would hope that the Feds, once they have finished the prosecutions (Frank Vennes has yet to go on trial), will aggressively investigate anyone (politician or otherwise) who received money from those convicted of fraud. The politicians in question [I]should[/I] search their books and determine just how much they actually received from such groups and work with the Feds to repay (as I am sure the money is now gone) every penny.

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[quote=Mattyk;855386]Plus it's just barbaric and the ultimate in hypocrisy.[/quote]

No its not.

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[quote=JoeRedskin;855452]In the usual ways - oversimplification of the problems you identify and solutions you propose, displaying a superficial knowledge of the philisophical, factual and historical positions you advocate or attack - that sort of thing.

Let's roll back the justice system to a 4000 year old vengence oriented system - good plan. Wouldn't want moral and/or ethical evolution to get in the way of a good hanging![/quote]

This whole "merciful" injection killing is total horse shit compared to the guillotine. Which form of execution is more instantaneous?

It is a shame executions are no longer public. It would be nice for all to witness the consequences of committing a heinous crime first hand instead of protecting ourselves from the messiness of executions behind closed prison doors.

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Haven't we had the "Death Penalty" discussion before? In serious depth?

Saden1 - to the extent I endorse the death penalty (and I do in certain limited circumstances - my posts in the prior thread), I agree. If we as a society are going to endorse using the death penalty, then we shouldn't act as if we are ashamed of it. Personally, generally, I got no problem with the guillioutine.

At the same time, executions should not be a spectacle either. The societal decision to kill is not something that should be viewed for it's entertainment value.