Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

While it's way too early for the 'predict the 53' thread, evaluating our roster at this point going into the offseason it's probably not too early to predict who will be in the teams plans... Here goes..

QB-Grossman (stay), Beck (gone).. Grossman will be a bridge/backup next season for the new QB but no more than a one year deal. Beck showed he has no future as an NFL QB.

RB-Hightower (50-50 but probably gone), Helu (stay), Royster (stay).. I think the Redskins are still looking for that #1 back. Helu and Royster definitely have skills to produce but neither is likely the 250-300 carry guy.

FB-Young (stay), Sellers (gone).. If Sellers is back on the Redskin sidelines, it will be as an assistant or an analyst. He's done.

T-Williams (stay), Smith (stay), Brown (gone), Locklear (gone), Polumbus (stay).. The left side is in pretty good shape with T. Williams returning and Smith providing young, quality depth.. The right side will be a rebuild, Brown can't stay healthy, Locklear was awful, Polumbus was ok and again provides young depth.

G-Lictenstieger (stay), Hurt (stay), Chester (stay), Cook (gone).. Probably the least positional turnover on the roster here. They may add another backup guard but Stieger was our best OL when he got injured so if he returns healthy, this position is pretty well set.

C-Montgomery (gone), Cook (gone).. Monty did a decent job and was an upgrade over Rabach but was still pushed back far too often and his shotgun snaps took way too long to get back to the QB. He's a very good backup but miscast as a starter.

TE-Cooley (stay), Davis (stay), Paulson (stay), Myers (gone).. Another stable position here. Davis can go either way but really hurt himself with the drug suspension so his best bet is a 2-3 year contract here. If healthy, this group can really help a rookie QB..

WR-Moss (gone), Gaffney (stay), Hankerson (stay), Armstrong (gone), Stallworth (gone), Anderson (gone), Paul (stay), Austin (gone), Robinson (stay), Banks (gone).. This will be the largest amount of turnover on the roster and probably needs the biggest overhaul.

Santana Miss (pun intended) had his worst season and won't be back. He caught less than 50% of the balls thrown his way, had his worst YPC average and lowest production numbers (catches, yards, TD) since his 2nd NFL season. He's no longer explosive deep or in getting away from defenders and he dropped WAY too many passes. At least 3 of Rex's interceptions were tipped/missed by Moss.

Armstrong, Stallworth, Anderson, Austin and Banks are all replaceable parts. Paul can become what Stallworth provided. Robinson has 4.3 speed and can be a returner (as can Paul) and Banks did nothing this season to warrant him returning. We were among the league worst in KO and punt returns and Banks fumbled 7 times. Preseason heroics can only carry you so far.

Shanahan acknowledged to the NFC East blogger for ESPN that this team needs a #1 WR and that's a priority this offseason. Expect a big push for a Desean Jackson, Dwayne Bowe or Marques Colston type of WR in free agency.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

Who goes on O:

Stallworth, Sellers, Cook, Armstrong, Locklear, Brown, Anderson.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=Paintrain;872387]While it's way too early for the 'predict the 53' thread, evaluating our roster at this point going into the offseason it's probably not too early to predict who will be in the teams plans... Here goes..

QB-Grossman (stay), Beck (gone).. Grossman will be a bridge/backup next season for the new QB but no more than a one year deal. Beck showed he has no future as an NFL QB.

RB-Hightower (50-50 but probably gone), Helu (stay), Royster (stay).. I think the Redskins are still looking for that #1 back. Helu and Royster definitely have skills to produce but neither is likely the 250-300 carry guy.

FB-Young (stay), Sellers (gone).. If Sellers is back on the Redskin sidelines, it will be as an assistant or an analyst. He's done.

T-Williams (stay), Smith (stay), Brown (gone), Locklear (gone), Polumbus (stay).. The left side is in pretty good shape with T. Williams returning and Smith providing young, quality depth.. The right side will be a rebuild, Brown can't stay healthy, Locklear was awful, Polumbus was ok and again provides young depth.

G-Lictenstieger (stay), Hurt (stay), Chester (stay), Cook (gone).. Probably the least positional turnover on the roster here. They may add another backup guard but Stieger was our best OL when he got injured so if he returns healthy, this position is pretty well set.

C-Montgomery (gone), Cook (gone).. Monty did a decent job and was an upgrade over Rabach but was still pushed back far too often and his shotgun snaps took way too long to get back to the QB. He's a very good backup but miscast as a starter.

TE-Cooley (stay), Davis (stay), Paulson (stay), Myers (gone).. Another stable position here. Davis can go either way but really hurt himself with the drug suspension so his best bet is a 2-3 year contract here. If healthy, this group can really help a rookie QB..

WR-Moss (gone), Gaffney (stay), Hankerson (stay), Armstrong (gone), Stallworth (gone), Anderson (gone), Paul (stay), Austin (gone), Robinson (stay), Banks (gone).. This will be the largest amount of turnover on the roster and probably needs the biggest overhaul.

Santana Miss (pun intended) had his worst season and won't be back. He caught less than 50% of the balls thrown his way, had his worst YPC average and lowest production numbers (catches, yards, TD) since his 2nd NFL season. He's no longer explosive deep or in getting away from defenders and he dropped WAY too many passes. At least 3 of Rex's interceptions were tipped/missed by Moss.

Armstrong, Stallworth, Anderson, Austin and Banks are all replaceable parts. Paul can become what Stallworth provided. Robinson has 4.3 speed and can be a returner (as can Paul) and Banks did nothing this season to warrant him returning. We were among the league worst in KO and punt returns and Banks fumbled 7 times. Preseason heroics can only carry you so far.

Shanahan acknowledged to the NFC East blogger for ESPN that this team needs a #1 WR and that's a priority this offseason. Expect a big push for a Desean Jackson, Dwayne Bowe or Marques Colston type of WR in free agency.[/quote]

I have a hard time disagreeing with your predictions. I tend to thnk Santana stays, however. Everything else, I agree with.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=mbedner3420;872390]I have a hard time disagreeing with your predictions. I tend to thnk Santana stays, however. Everything else, I agree with.[/quote]

So let me throw this out there.. Does Moss bring anything to the table that cannot be equally replaced, if not improved on by Eddie Royal who is a free agent and BTW was a Shanny draft pick?

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=Paintrain;872395]So let me throw this out there.. Does Moss bring anything to the table that cannot be equally replaced, if not improved on by Eddie Royal who is a free agent and BTW was a Shanny draft pick?[/quote]

That is a good point. I could definitely see that happening and would welcome that move. I tend to think it would be unpopular by the fan base to dump moss, but probably would be for the best.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=mbedner3420;872398]That is a good point. I could definitely see that happening and would welcome that move. I tend to think it would be unpopular by the fan base to dump moss, but probably would be for the best.[/quote]

I suppose he could be thrown into a trade with picks.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

QB - Grossman stays, Beck goes

RB - Helu and Royster both stay. Hightower signs a one year deal, but he needs to learn fullback as well as tailback to justify his roster spot (in case we need him to be Mike Sellers). If Hightower makes the roster, we're keeping 4 RBs, if he doesn't then just three. Obviously this gives us the ability to add another good RB

FB - Young stays

WR - Gaffney stays, Hankerson stays, Paul stays, Armstrong stays, Banks stays, Robinson stays. Moss goes, Stallworth goes, David Anderson goes, Terrence Austin goes. Even with four people off of the roster, there is really just one remaining spot to upgrade the roster at.

TE - Davis re-signs, Cooley stays, Paulsen stays. Sellers goes.

OT - Williams stays, Smith stays, Polumbus stays (for now). Brown goes.

OG - Lichtenstiger stays, Chester stays, Hurt stays

C - Montgomery re-signs. Cook goes.

There's not a lot of radical change needed on the offensive side of the ball. A talent influx is needed, and that will create a numbers game for some of the guys who I've identified as candidates to stay.

Focal point of the draft: corners, safeties, all offensive positions.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=Paintrain;872395]So let me throw this out there.. Does Moss bring anything to the table that cannot be equally replaced, if not improved on by Eddie Royal who is a free agent and BTW was a Shanny draft pick?[/quote]Eddie Royal isn't very good, though he was good the one year he played for Shanahan.

To answer your question, no. Royal could probably masquerade as a decent no. 3 here. I'd just go in a different direction, since we run Kyle's offense.

Moss hit the wall this year. The signs of decline were very present for many years. But this year he stopped catching the football and creating separation for quarterbacks to throw into.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

QB - Grossman goes, Beck goes

RB - Helu, Royster, and Hightower stays.

FB - Young stays

WR - Gaffney stays, Hankerson stays, Paul stays, Armstrong stays, Austin stays, Robinson stays. Moss stays, Stallworth stays, David Anderson goes, Banks goes. There will be a camp competition between Armstrong, Stallworth, and Moss. The winner will make to the 53. I'm gonna give Moss the benefit of the doubt because he did break his hand I do also think Royal will be signed with us

TE - Davis re-signs, Cooley stays, Paulsen stays. Sellers gone.

OT - Williams stays, Smith stays, Polumbus stays. Brown goes.

OG - Lichtenstiger stays, Chester stays, Hurt stays

C - Montgomery re-signs. Cook goes.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

I dont know why anyone wants grossman back,you guys are killing me.He is a turnover machine,theres got to be better options out there in the offseason.I want beck and grossman gone.I'd take Mcnabb back over grossman,wheres sage r at? david carr,anybody! please!
I wish they would sign Josh Scobee and cut Gano,but I know theyre not smart enough to do that

[QUOTE=SFREDSKIN;872388]Who goes on O:

Stallworth, Sellers, Cook, Armstrong, Locklear, Brown, Anderson.[/QUOTE]

Throw in stallworth too

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

I'm just saying who will be back.

qb- Grossman back because of valuable experience in system.

rb- Helu, and Royster. Hightower if for a good deal.

wr- Moss, Hankerson, Banks, Gaffney, Paul

T- All but Locklear

G- Lichtenstiger, Hurt, Chester

C- Monty

TE- Cooley, Davis, Paulsen

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

QB:

Grossman: stays, either as a backup or a bridge to our talented young qb whom we will hopefully get.

Beck: goes. I'd also like to address that one member here who thinks we should give Beck another shot next year (sorry bro, can't remember your name). Think about how pathetic he played and then think about the fact that he had the opportunity to sit for over a year to learn this offense. I honestly don't think Beck will ever win a game in the NFL.

RB:

Helu: goes :rolleyes: obviously he's staying.

Royster: see Helu. In fact I wouldn't be disappointed if they shared the rock next season.

Hightower: stays, prob a 1 or 2 year deal. Like Gtripp said if he could learn fullback that'd be great, otherwise I wouldn't expect him to see much pt with Royster and Helu hogging the carries. He might still see pt as a pass blocker though.

FB:

Young: stays

WR:

Moss: I was always content with Moss being our #1 in recent seasons, but his ship has sailed. He's starting to get long in the tooth and I think he's on the decline. I wish him success with a SB contender next year though.

Gaffney: stays, solid play this season earns him a couple more years.

Hankerson: stays, I'm definitely excited to see what he can do when he's fully healthy next year.

Armstrong: stays or goes, idc. Definitely fell off from last year. But if we can get better depth at wideout than him I'm all for it. Only way I see him staying is if we only get a true #1 and then leave the depth as it is.

Anderson: same as Armstrong

Austin: same as Anderson

Banks: eh. Idk what to do with him. Is he worth justifying the roster spot anymore? We saw him get a couple plays on offense towards the end of the year, but I honestly think he fell off in a big way from the return game last year. Plus it doesn't help that most of his big returns are helped by blocks in the back or holding. And with the kickoff rules, his value is definitely diminished.

Paul: staying as well. Excited to see if he keeps growing next year.

TE:

Cooley: stays. Fine with him staying. We might need him anyway.

Davis: stays, but damn if he isn't on a slippery slope. One positive test away from a year's suspension for the rest of his career = he will have to walk the straight and narrow for the rest of his career.

Paulsen: stays.

Sellers: Just save us the trouble and retire.

OL:

Williams: stays.

Smith: stays.

Polumbus: stays.

Locklear: goes.

Brown: goes.

The Steig: stays.

Hurt: stays.

Cook: goes.

Montgomery: stays, but they might seek an upgrade.

Chester: stays.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=htownskinfan;872420]I dont know why anyone wants grossman back,you guys are killing me.He is a turnover machine,theres got to be better options out there in the offseason.I want beck and grossman gone.I'd take Mcnabb back over grossman,wheres sage r at? david carr,anybody! please!
I wish they would sign Josh Scobee and cut Gano,but I know theyre not smart enough to do that[/quote]

David Carr might be good for us as an option. He okay and will be beat out by the rookie. I agree no on Grossman.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

Rex stays as a backup
Young stays as a FB.
Helu, Royster, and Hightower stay.
Gaffney stays, Hankerson, Paul stay.
Fred davis and Paulsen stays
Trent, Polumbus, Willie Smith stay.
Licthensteiger Chester and Hurt stay.
Montgomery stays.

moss could go, especially if we 'reportedly' sign DeSean or Marcus Colston.
cooley could go, especially as trade bait.
Jammal Brown is gone IMO, injured too much and get beat badly.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=htownskinfan;872420]I dont know why anyone wants grossman back,you guys are killing me.He is a turnover machine,theres got to be better options out there in the offseason.I want beck and grossman gone.I'd take Mcnabb back over grossman,wheres sage r at? david carr,anybody! please!
I wish they would sign Josh Scobee and cut Gano,but I know theyre not smart enough to do that[/quote]

Wanting Grossman back and him being back are completely different. I don't WANT Grossman back but I believe he will return. He's got a history with Kyle, the players really like him, he's got some production in the offense. Now, that being said, I hope he never shows up in the NFL again, he's a walking turnover. Don't be surprised if he signs another 1 year deal with us early in FA.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

Santana Moss, and Mike "in the basement"Cellars. These guys do nothing, but remind me of the worst years in franchise history.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

you need a backup QB, and it'll be hard to find one that'll play better for us than grossman cheaply, believe it or not.

and you can't let your starting C just walk, monty will be back whether he's starting or not, he's okay.

cooley and moss are 50-50... if we get a blackmon or colston or bowe, he's kinda not needed. stallworth is fine as a vet min #4 if we don't have anyone else. I figure he'll be in camp if nothing else.

gaffney and hankerson will be good #2/#3s and with davis back and a #1 coming in, we'll be good there. I don't think there's much point in keeping both TEs unless you can't get value (which will be hard between IR/injury and the drug thing).

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=htownskinfan;872420]I dont know why anyone wants grossman back,you guys are killing me.He is a turnover machine,theres got to be better options out there in the offseason.I want beck and grossman gone.I'd take Mcnabb back over grossman,wheres sage r at? david carr,anybody! please!
I wish they would sign Josh Scobee and cut Gano,but I know theyre not smart enough to do that[/quote]

Grossman should be kept as the #3 QB. Note the number. Someone has to teach our new #1 and #2.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

My whole thing is that it would seemingly be impossible for Shanahan to survive here unless Grossman can win some games at the beginning of next season.

I think the hope in the organization is that Grossman can take the Redskins to the playoffs next year, and that he stops making so many mistakes because of his environment and coaching. At least, that's what his coaches think/need to think.

Saying Grossman is plan A at this point is pretty much false, but there's a pretty good chance he goes through training camp next year as the starter. And so getting off to a good start in 2012 may very well be dependent on Grossman continuing to grow and fit the offense.

I don't think the no. 2 guy is going to be a traditional number two. I think he will be the number one of the future, whoever that may be.

It will be interesting to see who the competition is for Grossman. Will he be in competition with a draft pick? Or will he be in competition with a veteran?

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;872473]My whole thing is that it would seemingly be impossible for Shanahan to survive here unless Grossman can win some games at the beginning of next season.

I think the hope in the organization is that Grossman can take the Redskins to the playoffs next year, and that he stops making so many mistakes because of his environment and coaching. At least, that's what his coaches think/need to think.

Saying Grossman is plan A at this point is pretty much false, but there's a pretty good chance he goes through training camp next year as the starter. And so getting off to a good start in 2012 may very well be dependent on Grossman continuing to grow and fit the offense.

I don't think the no. 2 guy is going to be a traditional number two. I think he will be the number one of the future, whoever that may be.

It will be interesting to see who the competition is for Grossman. Will he be in competition with a draft pick? Or will he be in competition with a veteran?[/quote]
I think the organization will be just fine if Grossman never took another starting snap for the Redskins. He may have to based on circumstance but not based on an expectation that he will be improved.

Also, the notion that Shanahan will not finish his contract is off base. Snyder knows he has to let a project go to completion. He's not going to derail Shanny after 3 years, even with another 10 loss seasons. Doing so just feeds into what his critics want him to do. The only way Shanny doesn't complete his contract is if he retires first.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=Paintrain;872481]I think the organization will be just fine if Grossman never took another starting snap for the Redskins. He may have to based on circumstance but not based on an expectation that he will be improved.

Also, the notion that Shanahan will not finish his contract is off base. Snyder knows he has to let a project go to completion. He's not going to derail Shanny after 3 years, even with another 10 loss seasons. Doing so just feeds into what his critics want him to do. The only way Shanny doesn't complete his contract is if he retires first.[/quote]Well, I think they (Allen and Snyder, not just Snyder) considered pulling the plug after two years. How could they not have?

Let's be realistic: this is it coming up. It's over without significant improvement and/or playoffs. And good riddance to the losing.

Because of this, I foresee an aggressive offseason that could get Grossman replaced. But assuming he will be back on the roster, it's going to be tough to find someone more qualified to start in Week 1. That's pretty much Luck or Griffin, or a huge money contract to a guy like Matt Flynn, or a blockbuster trade (a first rounder plus) for like Josh Freeman or something. It's a short list.

If the acquisition is Ryan Tannehill or Landry Jones, then Rex Grossman will need to win games in the short term for the era to continue.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

The chances that Rex isn't a Skin next year seem pretty low. Simply based on the fact that he'd be a decent #2 for us. He could also easily find work for any number of teams looking for a backup. Rex isn't a bag of sand...he does have some qualities...most notably that he has started plenty of football games and has looked "good" in his career coming off the bench.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;872488]Well, I think they (Allen and Snyder, not just Snyder) considered pulling the plug after two years. How could they not have?

Let's be realistic: this is it coming up. It's over without significant improvement and/or playoffs. And good riddance to the losing.

Because of this, I foresee an aggressive offseason that could get Grossman replaced. But assuming he will be back on the roster, it's going to be tough to find someone more qualified to start in Week 1. That's pretty much Luck or Griffin, or a huge money contract to a guy like Matt Flynn, or a blockbuster trade (a first rounder plus) for like Josh Freeman or something. It's a short list.

If the acquisition is Ryan Tannehill or Landry Jones, then Rex Grossman will need to win games in the short term for the era to continue.[/quote]
See I doubt any consideration was given to making a change at this point by either Snyder or Allen. You've been detailed and consistent in your criticism of Shanahan and some of his moves but I guess I see it a little differently. I see a 2009 team that was a mishmash of Gibbs style, Zorn non-style and Snyderatto spending. Everyone Shanahan has brought in has come in for a specific purpose in the system.

This roster while incomplete, has a plan now attached to it. If he was able to win 10 games with this roster, he should have been up for coach of the decade. Now I know what you will say, he compiled this roster, which is true. To that I also add you can't reset a roster and stockpile it with exactly who and what you want. That's a Madden mentality. There was nothing on either side of the ball to build around when he got it so we are seeing about 30% of the work done but he still had to have 53 men on the roster.

The biggest mistake was not keeping Campbell at QB. Sure he's flawed, no doubt but that would have avoided the McNabb error and Grossman's grossness. But that ship has sailed so focus goes forward and his Redskins legacy rests on drafting a QB in the 1st round this year. He's not going the Manning or Flynn route. He has to fix this position, long term, and he know this. You or I have a better chance at being the QB next year than a Tannehill or some other second tier QB prospect.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=T.O.Killa;872439]Santana Moss, and Mike "in the basement"Cellars. These guys do nothing, but remind me of the worst years in franchise history.[/quote]

That's not fair...they have the same amount of time w/ Shanahan as half the guys on the roster ;)

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=Lotus;872463]Grossman should be kept as the #3 QB. Note the number. Someone has to teach our new #1 and #2.[/quote]

I would be ok with him 3 but I dont see anyway that happens.If he's here it will be either 1 or 2

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=Paintrain;872496]See I doubt any consideration was given to making a change at this point by either Snyder or Allen. You've been detailed and consistent in your criticism of Shanahan and some of his moves but I guess I see it a little differently. I see a 2009 team that was a mishmash of Gibbs style, Zorn non-style and Snyderatto spending. Everyone Shanahan has brought in has come in for a specific purpose in the system.

This roster while incomplete, has a plan now attached to it. If he was able to win 10 games with this roster, he should have been up for coach of the decade. Now I know what you will say, he compiled this roster, which is true. To that I also add you can't reset a roster and stockpile it with exactly who and what you want. That's a Madden mentality. There was nothing on either side of the ball to build around when he got it so we are seeing about 30% of the work done but he still had to have 53 men on the roster.

The biggest mistake was not keeping Campbell at QB. Sure he's flawed, no doubt but that would have avoided the McNabb error and Grossman's grossness. But that ship has sailed so focus goes forward and his Redskins legacy rests on drafting a QB in the 1st round this year. He's not going the Manning or Flynn route. He has to fix this position, long term, and he know this. You or I have a better chance at being the QB next year than a Tannehill or some other second tier QB prospect.[/quote]

Good logic here...but hopefully Shanny isn't guaranteed five years regardless of performance. A franchise hoodwinked for that long is a rare thing.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=The Goat;872503]Good logic here...but hopefully Shanny isn't guaranteed five years regardless of performance. A franchise hoodwinked for that long is a rare thing.[/quote]

Full disclosure, I think there is already a succession plan in place.. Draft a QB this year and keep building the team around him. Coach 2 more years then in the last year of the contract bump upstairs handing off a winning roster to Haslett or Kyle. This was a 3 year project slightly derailed by the uncapped 2010 and lockout in 2011 but was long range all the way from outset.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=Paintrain;872496]See I doubt any consideration was given to making a change at this point by either Snyder or Allen. You've been detailed and consistent in your criticism of Shanahan and some of his moves but I guess I see it a little differently. I see a 2009 team that was a mishmash of Gibbs style, Zorn non-style and Snyderatto spending. Everyone Shanahan has brought in has come in for a specific purpose in the system.

This roster while incomplete, [B]has a plan now attached to it[/B]. If he was able to win 10 games with this roster, he should have been up for coach of the decade. Now I know what you will say, he compiled this roster, which is true. To that I also add you can't reset a roster and stockpile it with exactly who and what you want. That's a Madden mentality. There was nothing on either side of the ball to build around when he got it so we are seeing about 30% of the work done but he still had to have 53 men on the roster.[/quote]Agree that 10 wins would have been an unrealistic goal for this roster, but maybe not for a roster with better design. I think Shanahan and his staff are really struggling with game management. But I don't think he (or many others) could have coached this team to 10 wins. Last year's team definitely had more potential, and had to be considered a much bigger disappointment overall.

I do wish people would stop saying this roster now has a plan attached to it without ever going into even the first detail of what the plan is. It's not just you, but that seems like a fundamental (and completely) unjustified belief of the last two years: we've been following a plan. Well, actually, we've just been making moves that don't point in any specific direction in terms of the present or future. Sometimes Shanahan values discipline over talent, other times talent and character over discipline. And it just seems to matter how he feels when he gets up that morning.

I agree that the 2009 team didn't have much of a focus either. We were heavily invested in defensive talent, but couldn't been less invested in the coaching or performance of the defense. The offense was under a microscope because there was no return on investment on the picks at WR, making the entire passing game dependent on Randle El (who had some very good years). Zorn stopped calling west coast plays after two weeks, stripped the offense back to it's Gibbs-era routes, then lost his playcalling duties so we went back to being a west coast team. It really was a mish-mash of successful and failed strategies.

And yet, the similarities between then and now are staggering. I think they've gotten consistently better at making fewer unforced mental errors, but then you see the Eagles game and you just have to wonder if it was all a mirage. It was a bad note to end on for sure. That game was as poor an effort in preparedness as any in the Zorn era.

[quote]You or I have a better chance at being the QB next year than a Tannehill or some other second tier QB prospect.[/quote]As much as I wish this was true...its not. I think the probability of one of Foles/Tannehill/Jones/Cousins being targeted as the next Redskins QB is pretty darn high.

And I don't think Foles is second tier at all, but that's my evaluation and no one should hold the Shanahans to that.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;872517]Agree that 10 wins would have been an unrealistic goal for this roster, but maybe not for a roster with better design. I think Shanahan and his staff are really struggling with game management. But I don't think he (or many others) could have coached this team to 10 wins. Last year's team definitely had more potential, and had to be considered a much bigger disappointment overall.

[B]I do wish people would stop saying this roster now has a plan attached to it without ever going into even the first detail of what the plan is. It's not just you, but that seems like a fundamental (and completely) unjustified belief of the last two years: we've been following a plan. Well, actually, we've just been making moves that don't point in any specific direction in terms of the present or future. [/B]Sometimes Shanahan values discipline over talent, other times talent and character over discipline. And it just seems to matter how he feels when he gets up that morning.

I agree that the 2009 team didn't have much of a focus either. We were heavily invested in defensive talent, but couldn't been less invested in the coaching or performance of the defense. The offense was under a microscope because there was no return on investment on the picks at WR, making the entire passing game dependent on Randle El (who had some very good years). Zorn stopped calling west coast plays after two weeks, stripped the offense back to it's Gibbs-era routes, then lost his playcalling duties so we went back to being a west coast team. It really was a mish-mash of successful and failed strategies.

And yet, the similarities between then and now are staggering. I think they've gotten consistently better at making fewer unforced mental errors, but then you see the Eagles game and you just have to wonder if it was all a mirage. It was a bad note to end on for sure. That game was as poor an effort in preparedness as any in the Zorn era.

As much as I wish this was true...its not. I think the probability of one of Foles/Tannehill/Jones/Cousins being targeted as the next Redskins QB is pretty darn high.

And I don't think Foles is second tier at all, but that's my evaluation and no one should hold the Shanahans to that.[/quote]

Here is where we differ in our interpretation of the 'plan'.
2010, see if he can win with the roster in place with a few tweaks.. Bringing in McNabb, changing to a 3-4 with many of the same pieces, minor roster modifications. Stayed with Haynesworth, Portis, Griffin, Daniels, brought in older vets to try to 'make a run' and see if he could make chicken salad from chicken ----.

2011, fix the defense and start changing the roster. Draft was primarily about the defense, free agency was almost all about the defense. He's committed to a 3-4, thinking it is the foundation for championships so he wants to build that first. Offense is secondary and no real effort (or significant money) is spent on that side of the ball. Our combined QB group makes less than any other starting QB alone. Our combined WR group has no committed money past 2013. Our RB group had 2 rookies and a pending free agent. There's nothing but flexibility to fix that side of the ball with no money or immovable roster spots.

2012, fix the offense. Free agency will be spent on WR, OL and RB. QB will be addressed in the draft. 2012 will be the beginning of the team that will define the Shanny era in DC.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=Paintrain;872520]Here is where we differ in our interpretation of the 'plan'.
2010, see if he can win with the roster in place with a few tweaks.. Bringing in McNabb, changing to a 3-4 with many of the same pieces, minor roster modifications. Stayed with Haynesworth, Portis, Griffin, Daniels, brought in older vets to try to 'make a run' and see if he could make chicken salad from chicken ----.

[B]2011, fix the defense and start changing the roster. Draft was primarily about the defense, free agency was almost all about the defense. He's committed to a 3-4, thinking it is the foundation for championships so he wants to build that first. Offense is secondary and no real effort (or significant money) is spent on that side of the ball. Our combined QB group makes less than any other starting QB alone. Our combined WR group has no committed money past 2013. Our RB group had 2 rookies and a pending free agent. There's nothing but flexibility to fix that side of the ball with no money or immovable roster spots. [/B]

2012, fix the offense. Free agency will be spent on WR, OL and RB. QB will be addressed in the draft. 2012 will be the beginning of the team that will define the Shanny era in DC.[/quote]That's not a plan or the plan, that's a recap of what actually happened: we changed what we're doing at the on-set of every season.

Rest assured that this offseason will not follow the same pattern last offseason did. Job security is a serious issue now and the 2011 team didn't improve as much over the 2010 disaster as the coaches were predicting. Shanahan thinks he built a 10 win team that got ravaged by injury this year. No, I'm serious. He said that. He said that today.

I think enough went right in 2011 (including that the rest of the division didn't play very well) where an aggressive offseason trying to make a run at a division title in 2012 is worth trying. The offense was perhaps better than we all expected to be. The defense ended up being adequate. Maybe not as good as they anticipated it being, but adequate.

But we need to not act like the plan all along was to totally waste two seasons replacing the window curtains before going for broke in 2012. We've been through Plan A, B, and C, and we're already passed the point where most coaches would have survived. The last three (non-Gibbs) coaches didn't survive past this point.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

The funny thing is, if you squint hard enough, you can actually see -- maybe -- where the offense (which received Jabar Gaffney and Donte Stallworth and Chris Chester), made a bigger improvement than the defense (which received a total overhaul). You could at least entertain the argument that the patient approach to improving the offense actually worked.

The offense wasn't very good still, but it had multiple 30 point efforts when the coaches stopped spiting themselves with awful playing time decisions (Beck, Torain, Cook) and uninspiring gameplans. And they turned Rex Grossman from a hilarious liability into an average player who was confident enough in himself and his teammates to make multiple good throws under duress this year. In doing so, they discovered (although I'm sure they don't see it this way) that there's nothing they can do to curb his turnover tendency.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[B]Grossman[/B]: Not only stays, but enters next season as the starting quarterback.
[B]Beck[/B]: Gone

[B]Gaffney, Hankeson, Paul, Moss[/B]: Stays (pencil in Justin Blackmon as the 5th WR)

[B]Banks, Austin, Armstrong, Stallworth[/B] - Gone

[B]Lichenstieger[/B]: stays, but he get's beat out by MoHurt.

[B]Jamal Brown[/B]:- Definitely gone. Can't stay healthy
[B]Sean Locklear[/B]: Gone. If you're gonna dumb tweet, at least be a baller.


We'll sign/draft a guard to beat out either Monty or Chester. Will Montgomery played in all 16 games this season. It's more difficult to unseat a center that suits up every game, knows the system and snap counts, than a serviceable guard. I think Will enters the season as the starter unless there's an injury or a stud comes along.

[B]Royster, Helu, Hightower[/B]: Stays

[B]D. Young[/B]: Stays. Has nice hands out of the backfield and really started to come on in the final few games.

[B]Davis, Cooley, Paulsen[/B]: Stays
[B]Sellers[/B]: Audi

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=GTripp0012;872530]That's not a plan or the plan, that's a recap of what actually happened: we changed what we're doing at the on-set of every season.

Rest assured that this offseason will not follow the same pattern last offseason did. Job security is a serious issue now and the 2011 team didn't improve as much over the 2010 disaster as the coaches were predicting. Shanahan thinks he built a 10 win team that got ravaged by injury this year. No, I'm serious. He said that. He said that today.

I think enough went right in 2011 (including that the rest of the division didn't play very well) where an aggressive offseason trying to make a run at a division title in 2012 is worth trying. The offense was perhaps better than we all expected to be. The defense ended up being adequate. Maybe not as good as they anticipated it being, but adequate.

But we need to not act like the plan all along was to totally waste two seasons replacing the window curtains before going for broke in 2012. We've been through Plan A, B, and C, and we're already passed the point where most coaches would have survived. The last three (non-Gibbs) coaches didn't survive past this point.[/quote]
Yeah man, we just see it differently. At this point it is a recap but even in the recap the plan seems pretty evident to me. Draft and money all went into the defense last offseason. During the season, many of the announcers who did our games mentioned that in the production meeting Shanny said they planned to focus on the D first and this offseason was about fixing the O. Only time will tell but I see progress in roster construction and a plan in action.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=Paintrain;872481]I think the organization will be just fine if Grossman never took another starting snap for the Redskins. He may have to based on circumstance but not based on an expectation that he will be improved.

Also, the notion that Shanahan will not finish his contract is off base. Snyder knows he has to let a project go to completion. He's not going to derail Shanny after 3 years, even with another 10 loss seasons. Doing so just feeds into what his critics want him to do. The only way Shanny doesn't complete his contract is if he retires first.[/quote]

I don't know... 3 years.. same results... longer than most management gets

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=tryfuhl;872625]I don't know... 3 years.. same results... longer than most management gets[/quote]

I'm starting a new thread to address our roster transition to answer this..

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=12thMan;872543][B]Grossman[/B]: Not only stays, but enters next season as the starting quarterback.
[B]Beck[/B]: Gone

[B]Gaffney, Hankeson, Paul, Moss[/B]: Stays (pencil in Justin Blackmon as the 5th WR)

[B]Banks, Austin, Armstrong, Stallworth[/B] - Gone

[B]Lichenstieger[/B]: stays, but he get's beat out by MoHurt.

[B]Jamal Brown[/B]:- Definitely gone. Can't stay healthy
[B]Sean Locklear[/B]: Gone. If you're gonna dumb tweet, at least be a baller.


We'll sign/draft a guard to beat out either Monty or Chester. Will Montgomery played in all 16 games this season. It's more difficult to unseat a center that suits up every game, knows the system and snap counts, than a serviceable guard. I think Will enters the season as the starter unless there's an injury or a stud comes along.

[B]Royster, Helu, Hightower[/B]: Stays

[B]D. Young[/B]: Stays. Has nice hands out of the backfield and really started to come on in the final few games.

[B]Davis, Cooley, Paulsen[/B]: Stays
[B]Sellers[/B]: Audi[/quote]

I think Stallworth is staying, but agree with every thing else hear.

Also i know youre real high on Hankerson, do you know how bad his injury is? Can we expect him full speed at the start of training camp? That could play into who we start the season with at WR.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote=mlmpetert;872633]I think Stallworth is staying, but agree with every thing else hear.

Also i know youre real high on Hankerson, do you know how bad his injury is? Can we expect him full speed at the start of training camp? That could play into who we start the season with at WR.[/quote]
Shanny said yesterday in the presser that Hankerson should be 100% by April 1st and the start of the offseason program.

The one player that keeps popping up that I have the hardest time seeing on the 2012 Redskins is Moss.. He will be 33, undersized, lost explosiveness and has a multitude of drops. There has to be a younger replacement out there for him somewhere who can do the same thing he does. I just can't imagine him lining up for us in 2012.

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

[quote]Shanahan said receiver Leonard Hankerson should be fully recovered from the torn labrum in his right hip by April 1, allowing him to participate in offseason workouts. Shanahan said Hankerson only needs "rest and treatment." Hankerson did not undergo surgery.[/quote]

[url=http://washingtonexaminer.com/sports/nfl/2012/01/still-looking-results/2055016#ixzz1iPh9fitl]Redskins still looking for results | Washington Examiner[/url]

Re: Who Stays-Who Goes? (Offense)
 

^ ^^ cool, thanks