How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

Good read here.

[url=http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jan/29/with-redskins-since-01-scott-campbell-has-earned-m/?page=1]Redskins' Campbell has earned merit badge in scouting - Washington Times[/url]

Nice to see Campbell and his team get validation and respect. I mean I believe we've talked about this before, but there was so much distrust, insecurity, and "we're just going to do it my way" when Cerrato was running things that the culture change is refreshing.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

It is definitely really nice to see this.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

Good read

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

Good insight into the learning curve of the scouting biz.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

I like to hear that the organization is communicating with one another so well. We're a ways away but with the culture changing, at least there's hope.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

Kinda shows just how much change was really needed in this organization from top to bottom.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

LOVE this administration......

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

Good read, have alot of confidence in our FO. HTTR.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

I'd have a lot more faith in our FO if we weren't picking in the top 10 so often...

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

At the end of the day, they've pretty much been the same guys for the last five years or so. If they're a good front office now, then they were a good front office before.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;880236]At the end of the day, they've pretty much been the same guys for the last five years or so. If they're a good front office now, then they were a good front office before.[/quote]

Yeah, but they didn't follow the chain of command prior to Shanahan. Also, if these guys make recommendations on picks, and the guy making the picks doesn't listen.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

Can you explain that statement a little more Gtripp?

I don't follow you. This is year three for the current FO at Redskins Park. And even though the scouting department has not changed as far as personnel there have been signifigant changes in the way the information is used.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=artmonkforhallofamein07;880240]Can you explain that statement a little more Gtripp?

I don't follow you. This is year three for the current FO at Redskins Park. And even though the scouting department has not changed as far as personnel there have been signifigant changes in the way the information is used.[/quote]I think they've been doing stuff differently, but we're talking about the same guys here.

Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown are well-respected personnel guys, but they were well-respected personnel guys when Cerrato called the shots. It's the same guys, the same front office. Having a different way of doing things can be refreshing, or it can just be a different means to the same end.

If people are waiting for me to rip Scott Campbell for peeling back the curtain a bit as to how the Redskins run things now as opposed to before, that's just not someplace I'm going to go. The Redskins draft record under Cerrato in the first couple of rounds always suggested our scouts were as thorough as anyone elses.

I don't deny that it's still the case, and I'm glad Rich Campbell was able to give us a little bit of a look at the Redskins front office. But it's the same front office. It really is. It's year, what, six? Seven? Eight? It's clear to me Shanahan has changed a couple things here and there since mid-season when the heat got turned up on him, but the only thing we can do hoping that things are better now is to wait for it and hope. Because things clearly are not changing before the 2012 draft: we're sticking with the current course for one more year.

There is no alternative for the fans to passively hoping that they're getting it right.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

There are different scouts, but that's not all that uncommon.

Scott's work fell on deaf ears under the past regime. If it hadn't, we would have taken Jordy Nelson instead of Devin Thomas and not taken Malcolm Kelly.

There's much more collaboration now, ultimately it's Mike Shanahan's call. But the open dialogue is positive.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

Awesome read and thanks for sharing!


Man it feels great to have a credible guy at the helm.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

This is why I really hope, even if we have a mediocre year next year, that we do give Shanahan the full five years. I mean if we have 4 wins again, then maybe we need to assess it further, but I think top to bottom the direction of this team is so much better than it was before he got here. It's really crazy to see just how messed up the whole thing was. There are some types of things I dont totally agree with Shanahan on, but I dont think you can dispute that the franchise is not in a much better spot than it was after 2009.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[QUOTE=GTripp0012;880251]I think they've been doing stuff differently, but we're talking about the same guys here.

Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown are well-respected personnel guys, but they were well-respected personnel guys when Cerrato called the shots. It's the same guys, the same front office. Having a different way of doing things can be refreshing, or it can just be a different means to the same end.

[B]If people are waiting for me to rip Scott Campbell for peeling back the curtain a bit as to how the Redskins run things now as opposed to before, that's just not someplace I'm going to go. The Redskins draft record under Cerrato in the first couple of rounds always suggested our scouts were as thorough as anyone elses. [/B]
I don't deny that it's still the case, and I'm glad Rich Campbell was able to give us a little bit of a look at the Redskins front office. But it's the same front office. It really is. It's year, what, six? Seven? Eight? It's clear to me Shanahan has changed a couple things here and there since mid-season when the heat got turned up on him, but the only thing we can do hoping that things are better now is to wait for it and hope. Because things clearly are not changing before the 2012 draft: we're sticking with the current course for one more year. [/QUOTE]

It's not that I was waiting for you to rip Campbell. I [I]was[/I] waiting to hear how Cerrato wasn't really all that bad and that Shanahan is just doing the same thing. ;)

It's the same guys. I am no insider and even I had heard how the Skins scouts were a solid to good group as scouts go. From Campbell's statements, however, it seems to me that the lines of communication are much better between Shanahan and the scouts than it ever was between Cerrato and the scouts. Again, I am just a simple minded fan, but, better communication seems like a good thing.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;880251]I think they've been doing stuff differently, but we're talking about the same guys here.

Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown are well-respected personnel guys, but they were well-respected personnel guys when Cerrato called the shots. It's the same guys, the same front office. Having a different way of doing things can be refreshing, or it can just be a different means to the same end.

If people are waiting for me to rip Scott Campbell for peeling back the curtain a bit as to how the Redskins run things now as opposed to before, that's just not someplace I'm going to go. The Redskins draft record under Cerrato in the first couple of rounds always suggested our scouts were as thorough as anyone elses.

I don't deny that it's still the case, and I'm glad Rich Campbell was able to give us a little bit of a look at the Redskins front office. But it's the same front office. It really is. It's year, what, six? Seven? Eight? It's clear to me Shanahan has changed a couple things here and there since mid-season when the heat got turned up on him, but the only thing we can do hoping that things are better now is to wait for it and hope. Because things clearly are not changing before the 2012 draft: we're sticking with the current course for one more year.

There is no alternative for the fans to passively hoping that they're getting it right.[/quote]

I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=Schneed10;880278]I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.[/quote]

well said

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

i just think in my opinion the players selected post cerrotto era are better and better value then while he was there although i give him landry and orakpo. the players selected this year and last gave us phenomenal depth at each position that we drafted at like hulu in the 4th, royster in the 6th, neild in the 7th. its not hard to hit on mid to late 1st round picks just make sure you pick the position that you need not the one you want

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=Schneed10;880278]I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.[/quote]The big issue is, if you have an old 'front office' who lacked basic communication skills and tried to load the team full of talent and just hoped that it all worked out in the end (and blamed others when it didn't), and you have a different front office that communicates what it needs and trains its scouts to find a certain kind of player, and still consistently makes questionable decisions (maybe not so much on the college level), where is the issue? That the team consistently makes questionable hires for its 'front office' or that it's not changing the right pieces.

I'm on board with the idea that things have gotten better in the last two months from where they bottomed out in October, but the positives in the Shanahan front office sure feel a lot like the positives from the Cerrato front office. The biggest issue remains the lack of substantive organizational year-to-year improvement.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

Terrific read, Shanny is perfect when it comes to off the field. On the field... well, ya..

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;880295]The big issue is, if you have an old 'front office' who lacked basic communication skills and tried to load the team full of talent and just hoped that it all worked out in the end (and blamed others when it didn't), and you have a different front office that communicates what it needs and trains its scouts to find a certain kind of player, and still consistently makes questionable decisions (maybe not so much on the college level), where is the issue? That the team consistently makes questionable hires for its 'front office' or that it's not changing the right pieces.

I'm on board with the idea that things have gotten better in the last two months from where they bottomed out in October, but the positives in the Shanahan front office sure feel a lot like the positives from the Cerrato front office. The biggest issue remains the lack of substantive organizational year-to-year improvement.[/quote]

Substantive year to year improvement won't be realized when the star LT drafted by Shanahan and the athletic TE replacing the injured star TE are both suspended by the league for smoking pot during a period when they thought they would not be tested. Further, year to year improvement also will not be realized when the dearth of talent left behind by the Cerrato regime is THIS bad.

I won't defend every move Shanahan has made - the McNabb deal was terrible for one and set us back in finding the next quality Redskins QB.

But some turnarounds take more time. I'd think you of all people would espouse a patient approach after the years of turmoil this organization - and we as fans - have endured.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

So if I'm reading this right it was never really that the scouts under Vinny were bad, but rather they were being held back by Vinny's emphasis on certain positions and giving up draft picks way to easily.

Anyway this article pretty much seals it. The front office is dedicated to building through the draft and building a team much like the Steelers and Patriots. I doubt they trade up for a QB come April.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=Schneed10;880313]Substantive year to year improvement won't be realized when the star LT drafted by Shanahan and the athletic TE replacing the injured star TE are both suspended by the league for smoking pot during a period when they thought they would not be tested. Further, year to year improvement also will not be realized when the dearth of talent left behind by the Cerrato regime is THIS bad.

I won't defend every move Shanahan has made - the McNabb deal was terrible for one and set us back in finding the next quality Redskins QB.

But some turnarounds take more time. I'd think you of all people would espouse a patient approach after the years of turmoil this organization - and we as fans - have endured.[/quote]I am young enough to favor a patient approach, but far too old to believe that what I'm seeing on the field is a poor representation of what I can expect to see on the field in the future.

If Shanahan strings back to back top level draft classes together, I think there will start to be some legitimate evidence to support the voices who believe he will get this thing turned around. I don't think anyone things 2012 is a super bowl or bust year.

But when you look back at 2011 and see the average win percentage of the 16 opponents picking in the top ten range between .505 and .531, and then the Redskins sitting at sixth overall at .470, and lost 11 games against that, and finished with the worst point differential by any Redskins team since 2003 despite playing a schedule of losing teams, its just another year of failed expectations on the ledger. More of the same isn't going to right the ship, they need a different approach.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

Had no idea there are organizations like BLESTO.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;880325]So if I'm reading this right it was never really that the scouts under Vinny were bad, but rather they were being held back by Vinny's emphasis on certain positions and giving up draft picks way to easily.

Anyway this article pretty much seals it. The front office is dedicated to building through the draft and building a team much like the Steelers and Patriots. I doubt they trade up for a QB come April.[/quote]

Well, given the fact that our woes are moreso due to not having a lot of picks rather than sucking at actual drafting, this should have been obvious years ago.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

This is my fault. I should have titled this thread "How Organizational Communication Has Improved Under Shanahan and Allen"

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=Schneed10;880278]I'm sorry Tripp but I have to really rip you for saying it's the same front office, because that makes no sense. Is it the same scouting group, sure. But when people refer to the "front office", they are referring to the person(s) who are ultimately making the player acquisition decisions.

Scouting departments are front office support people, not decision makers. They evaluate the talent. They evaluated it for Cerrato and now the evaluate the talent for Shanahan. But that's a huge delineation.

Shanahan, his son, and Haslett are defining and communicating the type of players they are looking for, while Campbell and his team go find them. In the past, Campbell and his team would go find them, and Vinny would end up picking whoever he thought would work best for Zorn.

But Vinny and Zorn weren't communicating, and it's clear in this article that Campbell was saying he wasn't getting much in the way of direction from the decision makers at the top. So it's no wonder Vinny went with the BPA strategy when he was in charge - the communication was so poor between coach, GM, and scouts that he didn't even adequately grasp what the team needed.

Scouts are only as good as the decision makers they support. You can provide all the quality analysis in the world, but if the decision makers can't communicate well enough to put the analysis to good use, then shitty decisions get made.

I think with the way Shanahan is making better use of Campbell's abilities, it bodes well for improved drafting and team composition going forward.[/quote]

I agree with this post. Also one more thing to celebrate about Cerrato's departure.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

I see Tripp is on his Shanahan hate horse again.


Giddy up!!

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

It has seemed like we drafted better later in the draft.. when guys like Campbell and Brown's suggestions were being taken into consideration because they weren't sexy enough picks for Vinny to be concerned with.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=NC_Skins;880343]I see Tripp is on his Shanahan hate horse again.


Giddy up!![/quote]You didn't even read what I wrote, you just assumed this. And I'm glad to see I'm making an impact on your life.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=JoeRedskin;880262]It's not that I was waiting for you to rip Campbell. I [I]was[/I] waiting to hear how Cerrato wasn't really all that bad and that Shanahan is just doing the same thing. ;)

It's the same guys. I am no insider and even I had heard how the Skins scouts were a solid to good group as scouts go. From Campbell's statements, however, it seems to me that the lines of communication are much better between Shanahan and the scouts than it ever was between Cerrato and the scouts. Again, I am just a simple minded fan, but, better communication seems like a good thing.[/quote]Meh. People get weak in the knees when you compare Shanahan and Cerrato.

I just want to make it clear I don't have anything bad to say about the clear lines of communication between GM/Coach and personnel department. I don't really think it's notable though, and am anticipating the fact that I don't think it's newsworthy being construed as being negative. To be quite frank about it, when Cerrato was in charge, you just kind of assumed that there was open communication with the coaching staff and personnel department because it's kind of shocking that you could have drafted as much talent as Vinny did without that communication. That people in any organization would feel marginalized is a fact of life, but that high ranking people would be among the marginalized would never even have crossed my mind.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

While it is good to see improvements, none of this will matter until all of this work results in wins for the franchise. I am glad to see the direction the team seems to be heading towards, and things are much better since the days of Cerrato. Still, MS has made a number of questionable calls running the franchise, and he started it all by doing the very thing that represented the flaw that was the previous front office: giving up picks for a washed up pro bowler.

I am not necessarily agreeing with GTripp, but in a way I understand where he is coming from.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=Dirtbag59;880325]So if I'm reading this right it was never really that the scouts under Vinny were bad, but rather they were being held back by Vinny's emphasis on certain positions and giving up draft picks way to easily.

Anyway this article pretty much seals it. The front office is dedicated to building through the draft and building a team much like the Steelers and Patriots. I doubt they trade up for a QB come April.[/quote]None of what I am going to write is meant to be a defense of Vinny Cerrato.

But remember how in history we are taught that the people who get to write history are the victors/people in power?

If in three years we're reading very well written insider pieces on how much of an organizational disaster Mike Shanahan was and how he limited Raheem Morris and Chris Forester from helping players reach their true potential and how much better of a person and football coach Jon Gruden is, just remember that the history is written by the people in power, and typically at the expense of the disposed.

And if we're not, I am quite happy that Mike Shanahan against all odds got this team to the playoffs.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;880356]You didn't even read what I wrote, you just assumed this. And I'm glad to see I'm making an impact on your life.[/quote]

I read what you said.

[quote=GTripp0012;880236]At the end of the day, they've pretty much been the same guys for the last five years or so. If they're a good front office now, then they were a good front office before.[/quote]


No impact on my life except a good laugh every now and then. Keep up the good work. :cheeky-sm

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;880363]None of what I am going to write is meant to be a defense of Vinny Cerrato.

[B]But remember how in history we are taught that the people who get to write history are the victors/people in power?[/B]

If in three years we're reading very well written insider pieces on how much of an organizational disaster Mike Shanahan was and how he limited Raheem Morris and Chris Forester from helping players reach their true potential and how much better of a person and football coach Jon Gruden is, just remember that the history is written by the people in power, and typically at the expense of the disposed.

And if we're not, I am quite happy that Mike Shanahan against all odds got this team to the playoffs.[/quote]

True. For example, if the Native Americans had won the Indian Wars our team sure as hell wouldn't be named the Redskins.

But history hasn't been unkind to Vinny. He had his chance and he failed.

IMO, Mike Shanahan has used essentially the same scouting staff that Vinny had to achieve better results than Vinny did. For example, all of the Redskins' 2011 draftees, except Jenkins (who was on IR), were active for at least one game in the 2011-2012 season. That's eleven players. Vinny never did anything like that. The Skins also signed a good group of Free Agents in 2011.

I realize that wins and losses are the ultimate proof of competence for a pro football executive and that Mike Shanahan's teams haven't yet won as much as Vinny's teams did. Nevertheless, I believe that, with the personnel we had when MS took over, we were not talented or deep enough to contend. I also believe that we needed to get younger, as a team. MS is currently working to fix these problems which he inherited from Vinny.

With another productive FA period and draft this year, I'm hoping we can start winning and become contenders for years to come.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=GTripp0012;880327]I am young enough to favor a patient approach, but far too old to believe that what I'm seeing on the field is a poor representation of what I can expect to see on the field in the future.

If Shanahan strings back to back top level draft classes together, I think there will start to be some legitimate evidence to support the voices who believe he will get this thing turned around. I don't think anyone things 2012 is a super bowl or bust year.

But when you look back at 2011 and see the average win percentage of the 16 opponents picking in the top ten range between .505 and .531, and then the Redskins sitting at sixth overall at .470, and lost 11 games against that, and finished with the worst point differential by any Redskins team since 2003 despite playing a schedule of losing teams, its just another year of failed expectations on the ledger. More of the same isn't going to right the ship, they need a different approach.[/quote]

One of the numerous problems with your line of thinking is that you're tying consistently poor results, as you aptly and correctly describe, with a consistent approach, which is just wrong.

The approach to the draft has changed drastically. Look at the sheer number of draft picks selected last April. Under Cerrato the Redskins were lucky if they made 12 picks over the course of two years.

Yes the Redskins lost games this year, but there's no denying the influx of young talent on the roster. Vinny brought us some terrible picks; Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly to name just a few. But it was the picks that weren't made that dragged us into the dregs; he ignored the trenches. Shanahan's first pick as Redskins' boss addressed that, but with so few quality linemen on the team it's no wonder it's taking the team a while.

The primary reason the team was so crappy this year was the quarterback position. We all know this. But that has NOTHING to do with the Redskins' approach in the draft. Last year they were wise not to reach for a QB who didn't have Franchise Solution written all over him, instead trading down and adding depth.

Their approach was to find a QB and build depth at every position through the draft. They didn't find the QB, so they built depth. The approach is sound, they'll go through the same process this year: find the QB, build more depth. Stating that approach needs to change seems to ignore the last 10 years of recent Redskins history.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

I'd take out the 12 picks over two years line because it's Cerratto did actually make several picks the two years he was in charge.

Otherwise, I agree.

Re: How Scouting College Players Has Evolved Under Shanahan
 

[quote=SmootSmack;880425]I'd take out the 12 picks over two years line because it's Cerratto did actually make several picks the two years he was in charge.

Otherwise, I agree.[/quote]

Granted, he did trade down and acquire those 2nd rounders, in particular. Too bad on two out of the three (Thomas, Kelly) he didn't listen to Scott Campbell.