Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

I agree with this fellow immigrant:

Societal Decay - Henson Ong

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyYYgLzF6zU&feature=player_embedded]Henson Ong at Gun Violence Prevention Public Hearing - Hartford, CT - 1/28/2013 - YouTube[/ame]

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

Great speech. Cut short by the politician "please wrap it up", lol.


[URL="http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/beauty-second-amendment-quotation"]Thomas Jefferson: "The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."[/URL]

[URL="http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution"]Thomas Jefferson - No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms. - Proposed Virginia Constitution, June, 1776.[/URL]

Keep citing stuff thats hundreds of years old.

Things change. The world changes.

Like of the comments said the capacity and availability of guns is what has changed. Societal decay is a cop out. Its always easier to blame abstract qualitative things than look at fact

Also is a new thread really necessary?

[QUOTE=hooskins;991684]Like of the comments said the capacity and availability of guns is what has changed. Societal decay is a cop out. Its always easier to blame abstract qualitative things than look at fact[/QUOTE]

Yes, we have more guns and demonstrably less violence.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=hooskins;991684]Like of the comments said the capacity and availability of guns is what has changed.[B] Societal decay[/B] is a cop out. Its always easier to blame abstract qualitative things than look at fact[/quote]


So with more killing your saying its not a societal decay and it just that we have more guns?

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=hooskins;991687]Also is a new thread really necessary?[/quote]

Maxed out your hard drive did it?

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=RedskinRat;991701]Yes, we have more guns and demonstrably less violence.[/quote]

yes, that's why we're #10 on gun deaths per capita at 10.2/100,000 and england is nearly last with 0.25/100,000.

so, the country with restrictive gun laws has 1 gun death per 400,000 people and the US has 1 per 10,000. our increased supply of guns apparently makes us safer (??) by killing 4,000% more people per year.

I love flawed logic. it's great.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=That Guy;991746]yes, that's why we're #10 on gun deaths per capita at 10.2/100,000 and england is nearly last with 0.25/100,000.

so, the country with restrictive gun laws has 1 gun death per 400,000 people and the US has 1 per 10,000. our increased supply of guns apparently makes us safer (??) by killing 4,000% more people per year.

I love flawed logic. it's great.[/quote]

I didn't say 'gun deaths', I said 'violence'.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=hooskins;991683]Keep citing stuff thats hundreds of years old.

Things change. The world changes.[/quote]As far as gun violence goes, try about fifty or so, when we didn't have the same kind of problems we have today. As far as principle goes, some principles don't change. Like equality, free speech, independence, and responsibility.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=HailGreen28;991761]As far as gun violence goes, try about fifty or so, when we didn't have the same kind of problems we have today. As far as principle goes, some principles don't change. Like equality, free speech, independence, and responsibility.[/quote]

It's similar to the irrational argument that '[I]it was written when we only had muskets, so you can have as many muskets as you want[/I]' (Jon Stewart, I think). What does the Government come to my home armed with? I want that. That's the point of the 2nd Amendment, to protect us from a despotic Government.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=That Guy;991746]yes, that's why we're #10 on gun deaths per capita at 10.2/100,000 and england is nearly last with 0.25/100,000.

so, the country with restrictive gun laws has 1 gun death per 400,000 people and the US has 1 per 10,000. our increased supply of guns apparently makes us safer (??) by killing 4,000% more people per year.

I love flawed logic. it's great.[/quote]

I don't have the time to look it up there are also countries that have way more guns per person then the US and have very little to no gun violence. There are also countries that ban guns and have a high gun violence. I'll look for the article I read about that and post when I get a chance.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=firstdown;991767]I don't have the time to look it up there are also countries that have way more guns per person then the US and have very little to no gun violence. There are also countries that ban guns and have a high gun violence. I'll look for the article I read about that and post when I get a chance.[/quote]

Switzerland has the third highest rate of ownership (due to their militia) and one of the lowest rates of gun crime, due to their responsible citizenry.

[IMG]http://mark.reid.name/images/figures/homicide-vs-guns-all.png[/IMG]

[URL="http://mark.reid.name/iem/gun-deaths-vs-gun-ownership.html"]This nice chap has done the work for you[/URL]

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

switzerland isn't close to the "lowest" they have 3.8 deaths per capita, ~40% of the US total, and about 1600% more than the UK.

I'd also argue that gun deaths are a kind gun violence. I wonder how armed robbery and armed rape stack up vs other countries...

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

and btw, homicides don't cover gun deaths. suicides are almost 2:1 vs homicides for deaths, with some accidents or unknowns thrown in for measure.

and some of the horrible countries for homicides on that list report ALL gun deaths as homicides, 0 suicides, 0 accidents, so some of the data may be a bit inaccurate from those places.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=RedskinRat;991771]Switzerland has the third highest rate of ownership (due to their militia) and one of the lowest rates of gun crime, due to their responsible citizenry.

[IMG]http://mark.reid.name/images/figures/homicide-vs-guns-all.png[/IMG]

[URL="http://mark.reid.name/iem/gun-deaths-vs-gun-ownership.html"]This nice chap has done the work for you[/URL][/quote]

Please take a look at my post about Switzerland in the other thread. Switzerland has extremely high gun ownership, but it is almost impossible to buy ammunition. You can buy ammunition at the shooting range but it must be used while there and cannot be taken home. Secondly, if there is some sort of conflict, you can go to the armory and they will sign ammunition over to you for war purposes. It used to be they let people keep X amount in their home, but it was audited yearly to ensure it hadn't been used. They have since changed that.

Also, your scatter graph is gun homocides. Which by definition does not include accidental deaths or suicides. Perhaps may not even count unsolved crimes.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=That Guy;991788]switzerland isn't close to the "lowest" they have 3.8 deaths per capita, ~40% of the US total, and about 1600% more than the UK.[/quote]

Yes, I am removing 'suicide' from the results.

[quote=That Guy;991788]I'd also argue that gun deaths are a kind gun violence. I wonder how armed robbery and armed rape stack up vs other countries...[/quote]

I said 'Violence', to be clear. Gun violence is a subset of violence, clearly, but I said we have less violence than we did.

Turns out the incidents of violent crime increased dramatically after the [URL="http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847"]Aussie gun ban[/URL], but who cares about that, eh?

[I]Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:[/I][LIST][*][I]Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent. [/I][*][I]During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent. [/I][*][I]Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent. [/I][*][I]Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent. [/I][*][I]At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent. [/I][*][I]Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.[/I][/LIST]

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

There has been so much info thrown around about guns and gun violence its getting hard to tell what the hell is the truth. I've seen countries that have tons of guns with very little problems and countries like the US with a big problem. I've seen countries with tight gun control with very little problems and some that have high crimes and violence. I'd love to see a break down of those extremes looked at very closly to see why the hugh difference.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[URL="http://www.kplu.org/post/gun-buyback-mayor-says-gaggles-private-gun-buyers-insane"]Seattle buyback epic FAIL:[/URL]

[I]Seven hundred and sixteen guns were collected at Saturday’s gun buyback program in Seattle. But officials say they are disturbed by the large number of private gun buyers the event attracted.

Mayor Mike McGinn says he was shocked by what he describes as the “gaggles” of private gun buyers who showed up to tempt people away from the long lines and gift cards and offer them cash for their weapons.


“We had a gun bazaar break out of the streets of Seattle outside of a gun buyback. That was just insane."[/I]


[IMG]http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVX5qM55FwOB8QZbsFFTJ1wBUmvTDpdb_qbi95D3oIPv2KY4pUIA[/IMG]

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[IMG]https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7017193984/h49C4AE96/[/IMG]

Well trolled sir (or madame).

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

What bad ass semi automatic street sweeper shot guns. Who ever turned those in is a dumb ass. Wouldn't be surprised if they don't end up in some cops collection.

[IMG]http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/kplu/files/201301/Guns2_0.png[/IMG]

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

......and it starts ,all over again.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[url=http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/01/28/video-dad-of-sandy-hook-victim-gives-emotional-remarks-on-gun-control-saying-the-problem-is-not-gun-laws/]VIDEO: Dad of Sandy Hook Victim Gives Emotional Remarks on Gun Control, Saying “The Problem Is Not Gun Laws” | Fox News Insider[/url]


It's a cold day in hell because I'm posting something from Fox news. This is a emotional speech given by Mark Mattioli. His son was killed in the Sandy Hook tragedy, and I applaud his thoughts on the issue.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=NC_Skins;992451][URL="http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/01/28/video-dad-of-sandy-hook-victim-gives-emotional-remarks-on-gun-control-saying-the-problem-is-not-gun-laws/"]VIDEO: Dad of Sandy Hook Victim Gives Emotional Remarks on Gun Control, Saying “The Problem Is Not Gun Laws” | Fox News Insider[/URL]


It's a cold day in hell because I'm posting something from Fox news. This is a emotional speech given by Mark Mattioli. His son was killed in the Sandy Hook tragedy, and I applaud his thoughts on the issue.[/quote]


Out of the 27 dead in Sandy Hook school shooting how many family and friends of the victims do feel the need for better gun control?

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=NC_Skins;992451][URL="http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/01/28/video-dad-of-sandy-hook-victim-gives-emotional-remarks-on-gun-control-saying-the-problem-is-not-gun-laws/"]VIDEO: Dad of Sandy Hook Victim Gives Emotional Remarks on Gun Control, Saying “The Problem Is Not Gun Laws” | Fox News Insider[/URL]


It's a cold day in hell because I'm posting something from Fox news. This is a emotional speech given by Mark Mattioli. His son was killed in the Sandy Hook tragedy, and I applaud his thoughts on the issue.[/quote]


[url=http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/gabrielle-giffords-emotional-plea-senate-courage-gun-control/story?id=18348682]Gabrielle Giffords' Emotional Plea for Senate 'Courage' on Gun Control - ABC News[/url]

....and I applaud hers being a victim herself ,she and her husband are both gun owners.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=Giantone;992492][URL="http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/gabrielle-giffords-emotional-plea-senate-courage-gun-control/story?id=18348682"]Gabrielle Giffords' Emotional Plea for Senate 'Courage' on Gun Control - ABC News[/URL]

....and I applaud hers being a victim herself ,she and her husband are both gun owners.[/quote]

[I]"Violence is a big problem. Too many children are dying. Too many children. We must do something. It will be hard, but the time is now. You must act. Be bold, be courageous, Americans are counting on you. Thank you," Giffords said before being helped out of the hearing room. [/I]

Then you'll applaud pretty much anything as nothing of substance, [U]yet again[/U], got said.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[IMG]https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/s480x480/11771_334054113367406_685631739_n.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

I think I see a problem:

[URL="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2273888/Man-killed-mother-14-sent-mental-hospital-21-able-buy-15-GUNS-release.html"]Man killed mother at 14 years old, was sent to mental hospital, released at 21 and was able to buy 15 GUNS.[/URL]
[I]
A young man who was convicted of shooting his mother to death as a teen and sent to a mental hospital for years was still able to buy 15 guns once he was released.

Chris Oberender was convicted of killing his mother in 1995 when he was 14-years-old, and he was sentenced to a mental hospital until he was 21-years-old.

Now he is awaiting jail in Minnesota for buying illegal firearms since he is banned from owning guns because he is a convicted felon. [/I]

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=RedskinRat;993141]I think I see a problem:

[URL="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2273888/Man-killed-mother-14-sent-mental-hospital-21-able-buy-15-GUNS-release.html"]Man killed mother at 14 years old, was sent to mental hospital, released at 21 and was able to buy 15 GUNS.[/URL]
[I]
A young man who was convicted of shooting his mother to death as a teen and sent to a mental hospital for years was still able to buy 15 guns once he was released.

Chris Oberender was convicted of killing his mother in 1995 when he was 14-years-old, and he was sentenced to a mental hospital until he was 21-years-old.

Now he is awaiting jail in Minnesota for buying illegal firearms since he is banned from owning guns because he is a convicted felon. [/I][/quote]

I agree. We need to start with universal background checks so someone can't just go to a private dealer for their guns with little to no oversight. Even if he had a forged license, a private dealer wouldn't be able to tell.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Whats happening right now is insane. I really hope someone is making a documentary or record of it. The amount of guns sold while Obama has been president is..... unpresidented (sorry, I know lame). Things have been even crazier most recently:[/FONT][/COLOR]
[LIST][*][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Month to month sales from October to November increased by 25%, after Obama’s most recent win.[/FONT][/COLOR][*][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]In December sales increased by 39%, likely due to Christmas, Obama, Sandy Hook, UN treaty, and Feinstein.[/FONT][/COLOR][*][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]In January they dropped from December’s all time high by 10%, yet were still higher than any other point in history (but only because of supply).[/FONT][/COLOR][*][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]These numbers are based off of background checks only. So private sales and sales where a person buys multiple guns at a time are not included. [/FONT][/COLOR][*][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Walmart, Dicks and others have even stopped selling certain firearms – yet without some of the biggest retailers participating demand remains incredibly strong[/FONT][/COLOR][*][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Gun prices have sky rocketed ([URL="http://www.democrats.org/news/blog/president_obama_takes_on_price_gouging_at_the_pump"]where’s Obama when you need him???[/URL])[/FONT][/COLOR][*][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Ammo is non-existent (3 box limit EVERYWHERE)[/FONT][/COLOR][*][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Mags are even harder to get [/FONT][/COLOR][*][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]The NRA is MONTHS behind processing membership (when you call them the prerecorded message says “Because of assaults on your Second Amendment rights you may experience significant weight periods”) [/FONT][/COLOR][/LIST][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Ive bought/sold/traded a lot of guns in the past month or so and its been pretty crazy. Im getting rid of junk for prices I should never be able to get. I would say its primarily mob mentality, people thinking they’ll never be able to buy a particular item again or people thinking they will never be able to make private purchases again. Its becoming a status or hipster/trendy thing too, everyone wants an AR or a Glock like everyone wants the latest Apple product. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]But whats extra crazy is that shit like bb guns or firearms that will never be banned are flying off the shelves too. Everyone is just buying buying buying right now. It feels completely like a bubble but the only problem is I dont think gun manufactures have the ability to produce enough guns to satisfy the demand any time soon. Because of this I feel like newly produce firearms are going to be restocked at higher prices, so these currently high prices may be somewhat supported indefinitely. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Previous bubbles in history all seem to be primarily driven by greed; housing, dot com, beanie babies, tulips, etc. This is driven almost entirely by fear. Most people arnt buying because they think the gun will be worth more one day, theyre buying because they think they may never be able to get one again – or get one without monitoring controls. I think consensus greed is irrational, im not so sure about consensus fear. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I just want to make these comments because I find the gun market absolutely fascinating right now. I would love to hear other people’s thoughts.[/FONT][/COLOR]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][IMG]http://www.gunreports.com/media/newspics/Total-NICS-Checks-Tablex500.jpg[/IMG][/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][URL="http://www.gunreports.com/news/news/FBI-Reports-Record-Gun-Sales-Last-Month-December-2012_4534-1.html"]FBI Reports Record Gun Sales Last Month — Up 1 Million over December 2011[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR]

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=RedskinRat;992615][I]"Violence is a big problem. Too many children are dying. Too many children. We must do something. It will be hard, but the time is now. You must act. Be bold, be courageous, Americans are counting on you. Thank you," Giffords said before being helped out of the hearing room. [/I]

Then you'll applaud pretty much anything as nothing of substance, [U]yet again[/U], got said.[/quote]



...........opinions everyone has one.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=Giantone;993221]...........opinions everyone has one.[/quote]

As substantive as Gabby Johnson's speech in Blazing Saddles.

You've yet to explain, GiantOne, what solution was offered up by these new Anti-gun Saints.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=RedskinRat;993228]As substantive as Gabby Johnson's speech in Blazing Saddles.

You've yet to explain, GiantOne, what solution was offered up by these new Anti-gun Saints.[/quote]
So the solution of the right wing gun nuts is......MORE GUNS!!!What more can be said ?

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=RedskinRat;992615][I]"Violence is a big problem. Too many children are dying. Too many children. We must do something. It will be hard, but the time is now. You must act. Be bold, be courageous, Americans are counting on you. Thank you," Giffords said before being helped out of the hearing room. [/I]

Then you'll applaud pretty much anything as nothing of substance, [U]yet again[/U], got said.[/quote]

Your ignorance of the subject is astounding.......I realise in your little world this isn't much of substance but in the big picture it means alot.Why,becuase she is the victum herself and she (and her husband) a gun owner are putting their money and name out front to find solutions.


[URL="http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/giffords-launches-anti-gun-website-85882.html"]Gabrielle Giffords launches anti-gun website - Katie Glueck - POLITICO.com[/URL]

Former Rep. [URL="http://www.politico.com/p/pages/gabrielle-giffords"][COLOR=#0066cc]Gabrielle Giffords[/COLOR][/URL] and her husband on Tuesday unveiled a new anti-gun violence initiative — two years after she was shot in the head at an event with constituents in Tucson, Arizona.
Giffords and her husband, former astronaut Mark Kelly, are behind Americans for Responsible Solutions, an effort that “will encourage elected officials to stand up for solutions to prevent gun violence and protect responsible gun ownership by communicating directly with the constituents that elect them,” according to the newly launched [URL="http://americansforresponsiblesolutions.org/"][COLOR=#0066cc]website[/COLOR][/URL], which is paid for by the Americans for Responsible Solutions PAC.
The website launch is accompanied by an [URL="http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/01/07/gabby-giffords-mark-kelly-tucson-shooting-gun-control/1816383/"][COLOR=#0066cc]op-ed[/COLOR][/URL] in USA Today, coming on the two-year anniversary of the shooting attack that killed six and wounded another 12 people on Jan. 8, 2011.
“I was shot in the head while meeting with constituents two years ago today,” Giffords wrote, in a piece co-bylined by Kelly. “Since then, my extensive rehabilitation has brought excitement and gratitude to our family. But time and time again, our joy has been diminished by new, all too familiar images of death on television: the breaking news alert, stunned witnesses blinking away tears over unspeakable carnage, another community in mourning.”
The couple notes that since the Tucson shooting, “America has seen an astounding 11 mass shootings since a madman used a semiautomatic pistol with an extended ammunition clip to shoot me and kill six others. Gun violence kills more than 30,000 Americans annually.”
Their efforts come several weeks after a mass shooting in Newton, Conn., killed 20 children and six adults in a massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School.


Read more: [url=http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/giffords-launches-anti-gun-website-85882.html#ixzz2K4dPmObd]Gabrielle Giffords launches anti-gun website - Katie Glueck - POLITICO.com[/url]

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

This is what people think about the gun culture in America today.

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/editorials/nras-solutions-show-americans-the-true-face-of-gun-culture/article6643732/]NRA's solutions show Americans the true face of gun culture - The Globe and Mail[/url]

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=RedskinRat;991766]It's similar to the irrational argument that '[I]it was written when we only had muskets, so you can have as many muskets as you want[/I]' (Jon Stewart, I think). What does the Government come to my home armed with? I want that. That's the point of the 2nd Amendment, to protect us from a despotic Government.[/quote]

Will a robotic government save us from a despotic government? or is it the idiotic government that keeps us from a chaotic government?

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=Giantone;993251]This is what people think about the gun culture in America today.

[url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/editorials/nras-solutions-show-americans-the-true-face-of-gun-culture/article6643732/]NRA's solutions show Americans the true face of gun culture - The Globe and Mail[/url][/quote]

For good or bad, other countries have never understood the United States sense of self-reliance/self-governance. Even Canada, a country where the rugged outdoors would have opened that same spirit up, never really shook off the tethers to the monarchy. A self-reliant spirit, a spirit that says live free or die, a spirit that applauds and brings about changes when students and oppressed people stand up to police in riot gear, doesn't exist in Europe or Asia. The world mostly seeks to mock that type of mentality as often as it can.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=Giantone;993248]So the solution of the right wing gun nuts is......MORE GUNS!!!What more can be said ?[/quote]

As I said before, I think issues run deeper than guns themselves. I don't think the answer to solving problems is always making rules or legislation.


I present you this situation where a mother backs over her own child with the car. What is her response? Wants legislation demanding cars have better safety features.

[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2253580/Judy-Neiman-relives-moment-killed-daughter-backing--calls-compulsory-reversing-cameras.html#axzz2K92bF0OL]Judy Neiman relives moment she killed her own daughter by backing up on her - and calls for compulsory reversing cameras | Mail Online[/url]

Really? No accountability by her whatsoever. None. Just make the cars so idiots like myself won't back over my own child. Help me protect my kids from me!!

That's the mentality this country has developed. We're disregarding personal accountability and pushing it off to somebody else.


Then you have people like this.

[url=http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-shoots-brother-posing-gun-article-1.1232082]Arizona woman accidentally shoots brother to death while posing for photos with pistol: cops - NY Daily News[/url]

Darwinism at its finest.

Re: Societal Decay - Henson Ong
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;993374]Will a robotic government save us from a despotic government? or is it the idiotic government that keeps us from a chaotic government?[/quote]

It's the lawyers responsible for all of it.