Setting Expectations
 

Over the past several years (since the arrival of Snyder), the Skins have made a concerted effort to get talented football players and coaches--with varying degrees of success. Each year they've got the next best player coming on board to lead them to the Big Game. See: Coles, Sanders, Smith, Trotter, Wilkinson, et al. While at the same time, we let core players get away: Davis, Kalu, Lang, Davis, Smith, Coleman, Shottenheimer, Barber, etc... The skins are absolutely crapping the bed this year. I can't believe that we let Smoot and Pierce get away! Those we core guys! Signing Samuels was a great step forward, but our player management STINKS! I like Santana Moss, I was really upset that they didn't draft him before Gardner, but look what they gave up to get him! And, while Gardner isn't great, he's worth more than a 4th round draft pick, in my opinion. They better do some magic in the draft. I thought by keeping Smoot, they'd be able to go after a top notch WR, but now they need a corner too. My expectations are already set this year, and they aren't good.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

Where did you hear that we got a 4th rounder for Gardner? I was hoping for atleast a 3rd.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

I still think way too much emphasis is placed on "player movement" "free agents" What our team really needs and doesn't have is a personality. There is also no culture in the redskins org. The reason for this?? Stability!! Not with players, but with coaches and ownership. There is no plan, no direction, and waaaaaaaaay to much ego.

I bet you anything, even with all the player tranactions above that you referenced HermosaBeach, if we had one coach, one offensive coordinator, one defensive coordinator over the last 5 years we would have a much better overall record!

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=HermosaBeach Skin Fan]... Each year they've got the next best player coming on board to lead them to the Big Game. See: Coles, Sanders, Smith, Trotter, Wilkinson, et al. While at the same time, we let core players get away: Davis, Kalu, Lang, Davis, Smith, Coleman, Shottenheimer, Barber, etc... The skins are absolutely crapping the bed this year... My expectations are already set this year, and they aren't good.[/QUOTE]


Lang is the classic example of a wust. He, like Coles' and Sanders, had unrealistic career goals. He sought to be reunited with his college coach as if he was guaranteed to win the SB year after year. Kalu who? Smith, Coleman, and Wilkinson, served thier time. Barber was hurt. It's been proven that Trotter is only a pro-bowl player with the team that spawned him. He would've had a similiar tenure with KC as he had with us. As for Schottenhiemer (and Spurrier), isn't that what you, the fan, asked for? Do you remember all the rant about being a boring football team? In comes the high-flying Fun 'n Gun and Davis' demise. Davis was as unhappy in a pass oriented offense as Coles was in a run oriented offense. Give me a legit coach and a player who believes in him. :oink:

Re: Setting Expectations
 

You sound like this guy:[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18484-2005Mar8.html[/url] Mike Wise of the WP, telling us we should have retained the players we lost.

I trust Gibbs and Co. to get this ship in order, it may be painful but they'll do it.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=BossHog]Lang is the classic example of a wust. He, like Coles' and Sanders, had unrealistic career goals. He sought to be reunited with his college coach as if he was guaranteed to win the SB year after year. Kalu who? Smith, Coleman, and Wilkinson, served thier time. Barber was hurt. It's been proven that Trotter is only a pro-bowl player with the team that spawned him. He would've had a similiar tenure with KC as he had with us. As for Schottenhiemer (and Spurrier), isn't that what you, the fan, asked for? Do you remember all the rant about being a boring football team? In comes the high-flying Fun 'n Gun and Davis' demise. Davis was as unhappy in a pass oriented offense as Coles was in a run oriented offense. Give me a legit coach and a player who believes in him. :oink:[/QUOTE]
I was JUST about to post that.. There are two players who thrived when they left, Davis and Trotter.. Davis had a great year in a perfect system for him but his injuries, which were a concern before he left, have been a factor.. Trotter was a backup until week 9 and then he came in and solidified their defense, but he admittedly didn't play within the system here so how were we to gauge his actually abilities? I'd rather have players that fit the system and play within the guidelines that the coaches set than malcontents.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

Bring the Pain(train)! :oink:

Re: Setting Expectations
 

gortiz, i totally agree with you. if the Skins had some stability over the past 5 years, there would have been a steady ship, as opposed to the rocky one they are currently on.

and personally, i would have liked to see Martyball stay in DC. if you look at the stats from that year, his offense was actually pretty balanced (490 carries for 1948 yards [appx 4 yds/carr] vs. 238 completions on 432 passes for 2716 yards [appx 6 yds/attempt])...and that was with Tony Banks at the helm. i was one of the minority who was furious when Spurrier was hired...

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=BDBohnzie]
and personally, i would have liked to see Martyball stay in DC. if you look at the stats from that year, his offense was actually pretty balanced (490 carries for 1948 yards [appx 4 yds/carr] vs. 238 completions on 432 passes for 2716 yards [appx 6 yds/attempt])...and that was with Tony Banks at the helm. i was one of the minority who was furious when Spurrier was hired...[/QUOTE]

this is a totally different discussion for a totally different post but I think if marty was still around we would be in a pretty good position right now. Not say St. Joe isn't going to get us there...

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=RedskinRat]You sound like this guy:[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18484-2005Mar8.html[/url] Mike Wise of the WP, telling us we should have retained the players we lost.

I trust Gibbs and Co. to get this ship in order, it may be painful but they'll do it.[/QUOTE]

wow this guy contradicts himself more than the bible. in one breath he"s saying the redskins should not have let pierce go. in the next he"s saying we arent the patriots and can not just plug anybody into williams defensive system and have it work. correct me if im wrong but i believe that is exactly what we did with pierce.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=redskinsskickazz]wow this guy contradicts himself more than the bible. in one breath he"s saying the redskins should not have let pierce go. in the next he"s saying we arent the patriots and can not just plug anybody into williams defensive system and have it work. correct me if im wrong but i believe that is exactly what we did with pierce.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, the whole article has 'Burn the witch' all over it, thankfully Gibbs and Co. will hold this thing together with dignity.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

I think had we stayed the course with ol' Norv and Brad Johnson, we'd have been a perrenial playoff team.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=Krills]Where did you hear that we got a 4th rounder for Gardner? I was hoping for atleast a 3rd.[/QUOTE]

Didn't hear for sure, just guessing.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

I think now we are taking the steps to gain stability. we will be better next season. I do disagree with gibbs in some aspects, but hey thats life. I trust that they are trying in their best intrest to get quality players, who care more about winning rather than their own personal glorification.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

overall i guess i hate this off season too but..

we had a good defense and bad offense and we gave up allittle on d to get a better offense. I just wondered in a report it said that coles and gardner talked together about how much they hated the offense. i mean how can a team be good when both of the WR don't want to be there and are upset. I then had to agree for the coles trade. We got Moss in return and he may prove to be better and we got patten. HERE IS a little info... out of all the recievers that got 40 or more passes i looked at the yards per catch and Ashley lelie was 1 then MOSS THEN PATTEN! that isn't bad. They got little amount of catches because moss was on a run team that ran well over 50 % i think they ran like 52- something and through like 43- something but i am not sure. Patten caught more than deion branch and was number two on the team in catches. Also we got rabach which will help our offensive line, on paper we have one of the better o-lines but raymer was a weak link and now that is fixed.
WE FIXED OUR OFFENSE FOR THE BETTER

DEFENSIVLY
Yes we lost one of the best in both smoot and pierce at thier respectable positions but we must remember niether of these two were at that position before the season started. We don't need BIG names to be good on D it seems that they all step up anyways, we won that last game against the vikes when they were trying w/o smoot and springs came out many times and we still did well. I am not saying that we don't need smoot but we can live w/o him and we shouldn't plummet in the defensive rankings nor should the vikes get amazing w/ him. Pierce i truely wanted more than smoot because i saw that we had no one to back him up but if barrow gets better he will dominant and possibly better than pierce but if not and that is the way it seems we may get derrick in the draft. Today someone told me that he had heard that Gardner may go to the Browns and we would switch our first round picks in return that would make us 3 and able to do what ever the hell we want exept get a new QB. if not we will get somin in return for gardner as espn said that he may be the hottest WR in the FA

Bottom line our D got worse but i think we will manage but our offense got better and that is what we need, so don't give up our number 1 problem on our team was the passing game being deep, reports earlier in the year said that it seems that he was scared that ramsey wasn't getting enough time in the pocket and that was true, we will get better on o-line and our passing game will improve because of that and b/c of our new speedy wr. Our running game should also improve

have faith playoffs for sure!!

Re: Setting Expectations
 

I think these idiots like Mike Wise are missing the point of the whole thing.

Even if we did have cap space, we wouldn't extend bigger offers to Smoot and Pierce because:

1. You can't have a young-in like Pierce making more money than Marcus Washington, who was our best LB last year, and the only Pro Bowl starter.

2. You can't have a relative young-in like Smootie making more money than Springs, who was clearly the best CB last year.

If Smoot/Pierce were offered more money than their superior counterparts, what message would that send to the latter? I think it would distort incentives even more.

Too bad we lost both these guys, but its best this way given the fact that they weren't willing to accept less than Marcus Washington and Springs. This way, we are building around the people that want to be Redskins, and including only those that want to be here - a la the New England team model. The defense will be fine without them, and we will hopefully draft some defensive players this year, who will help maintain continuity in the defense for atleast the next 3 years.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=HermosaBeach Skin Fan]I think had we stayed the course with ol' Norv and Brad Johnson, we'd have been a perrenial playoff team.[/QUOTE]

Speaking of Norv, did you guys see that press conference with him and Randy Moss? Norv's face had that look of "yeah, I just got the best wideout in the game, but I'm going to need pepto for the next few seasons."

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=BDBohnzie]gortiz, i totally agree with you. if the Skins had some stability over the past 5 years, there would have been a steady ship, as opposed to the rocky one they are currently on.

and personally, i would have liked to see Martyball stay in DC. if you look at the stats from that year, his offense was actually pretty balanced (490 carries for 1948 yards [appx 4 yds/carr] vs. 238 completions on 432 passes for 2716 yards [appx 6 yds/attempt])...and that was with Tony Banks at the helm. i was one of the minority who was furious when Spurrier was hired...[/QUOTE]

I wasn't happier about the Spurrier hire either........that was one of Snyder's
"sexy" signings that failed................ That's why I think with Joe and charge we just have to have some patience he will make sure the organization gets on the right track..........

Re: Setting Expectations
 

I understand we are trying to right the ship but Pierce and Smoot deserved more because of loyalty has coach GIBBS read Machiaveli? We got a 40 million dollar man on the bench why not make him restructure?? We need to be fiscally responsible but with that much dead money on the bench you can never convince me its about fiscal responsibility.... SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT? its disturbing.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=Krills]Where did you hear that we got a 4th rounder for Gardner? I was hoping for atleast a 3rd.[/QUOTE]

Some said the interest for Gardner was a mid round draft pick.......we speculated it might be a 4th..................Personally, I don't think Mr. Dropsy aka Gardner would merit a 3rd............

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=hurrykaine]I think these idiots like Mike Wise are missing the point of the whole thing.

Even if we did have cap space, we wouldn't extend bigger offers to Smoot and Pierce because:

1. You can't have a young-in like Pierce making more money than Marcus Washington, who was our best LB last year, and the only Pro Bowl starter.

2. You can't have a relative young-in like Smootie making more money than Springs, who was clearly the best CB last year.

If Smoot/Pierce were offered more money than their superior counterparts, what message would that send to the latter? I think it would distort incentives even more.

Too bad we lost both these guys, but its best this way given the fact that they weren't willing to accept less than Marcus Washington and Springs. This way, we are building around the people that want to be Redskins, and including only those that want to be here - a la the New England team model. The defense will be fine without them, and we will hopefully draft some defensive players this year, who will help maintain continuity in the defense for atleast the next 3 years.[/QUOTE]


Good points, Hurrykaine. When I read that Pierce is getting more than Washington, it made things more clear. Same with Smoot. Unfortunately, we're not yet good enough, nor have we had the new regieme in place long enough to get guys to sign for a little less to be here. Much as I loved Smoot, I hope he misses DC everyday, and cheers for us when he watches us on TV during the playoffs from his snowed-in, frozen Minnesota pad. As for Pierce, hey, the guy got a serious payday, and we couldn't match. It's gonna happen sometimes.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

[QUOTE=BossHog]Lang is the classic example of a wust. He, like Coles' and Sanders, had unrealistic career goals. He sought to be reunited with his college coach as if he was guaranteed to win the SB year after year. Kalu who? Smith, Coleman, and Wilkinson, served thier time. Barber was hurt. It's been proven that Trotter is only a pro-bowl player with the team that spawned him. He would've had a similiar tenure with KC as he had with us. As for Schottenhiemer (and Spurrier), isn't that what you, the fan, asked for? Do you remember all the rant about being a boring football team? In comes the high-flying Fun 'n Gun and Davis' demise. Davis was as unhappy in a pass oriented offense as Coles was in a run oriented offense. Give me a legit coach and a player who believes in him. :oink:[/QUOTE]

Excellent post, BossHog. My thoughts exactly.

[QUOTE=joetheismanfan]We need to be fiscally responsible but with that much dead money on the bench you can never convince me its about fiscal responsibility.... SOMEONE PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT? its disturbing.[/QUOTE]

It's about FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY. Sorry, but that's what it is.

Brunell was a huge mistake. For his sake, Gibbs and co. will never admit that. But they made their bed, and now they have to lay in it. If someone paid me way more money than I was worth, I'd laugh at them if they asked me to give it back. I'm a God-fearing Christian man, too, but that doesn't mean I'm a sucker!

Now that what's done is done, the Skins need to do everything they can to ease the burden of past mistakes. Yes, it's disturbing when you lose key players like Smoot and Pierce-- I loved rooting for those two as much as the next guy-- but the Skins offered them as much as they could RESPONSIBLY afford in regard to the next few cap years, and it simply wasn't enough.

Now they have to do what other fiscally responsible-- and successful-- teams do: find cheaper talent to do the same job better.

That's the name of the salary cap-era game.

Re: Setting Expectations
 

its really funny when you look at it. the mold for the super bowl for the past couple of years has been home grown talent. Pierce was a prime example. he was signed undrafted by marty and has lasted through 3 head coaches and 4 cordinators without being a big name or a high impact player. when he got his chance he stared, ibeleive the quote by g. williams was " the smartest player i have ever coached". i dont care how much money he wants we could have done this, it should have been done in january, but no , vinny and dan had to focus on whcih "other" teams players we wanted. its a sad day when a perfect blueprint has been laid out (patriots, eagles, etc...) and we fail yet again to have a clue, and we not only lose a " super smart , core guy", but we lose him to a division rival, absolutely absurd!

Re: Setting Expectations
 

I think you might change your tone when he is thrown into a scheme that may not be right for him and become a Brunell-like bust.