Flooring Question
 

Greetings Warpath,

We've been dealing with a saga lately and I was hoping perhaps someone on TWP may have some expertise to lend. I will expand on the situation below, but the basic question is can you replace just a small section of engineered wood floor that is glued down to a concrete slab. At most it would be 6 pieces that would have to be replaced because there is slight bowing/cracking at an edge. Overall I'd estimate the area is 1.5sq inches large. It seems to be some sort of water damage, and we think it may be from the air conditioning unit.

For a little backstory. Girlfriend recently moved our of her apartment. She left the apartment in fantastic shape and always took great care of the place. Today we got a call saying that they wanted to keep the entire security deposit because of a few issues.
1) Repainting. Fine. They discussed it before and they raised the price, but $50/Wall is not unreasonable for professional painting of the walls my girlfriend painted to different colors.
2) Scratches/Loose electrical outlet. This outlet was like that before we moved and and have pictures to prove that it was scratched up before she moved in.
3) The small area of wood floor being slightly warped/bowed. We noticed it shortly before we moved out and we should have mentioned something right away. It's a very small area and most people didn't notice the area. We did not spill any water or leave anything there that may have caused that damage. We believe, since it is right next to the hot water heater/AC unit, that the damage was caused by those units.

So I have a few followup questions in addition to 'can that small area be replaced.'

- They want to charge her to replace the entire floor. That seems unreasonable to me due to the fact that even the part that is slightly warped is very small. The floor is also at least 6 years old, perhaps more. The average engineered wood floor is estimated to last 15-20 years. Would depreciation come into play in this situation?
- There are a lot of 'fishy' signs that they're simply trying to keep the security deposit. They said that even though it will cost ~5-6K they will make a deal to only keep the security deposit. Additionally, they were very aggressive in needing an answer soon and were resistant to allowing us to have someone assess the damage. They also couldn't tell me the name of the two companies they had come give estimates.
- Is this worth fighting? Should we give up while we're 'ahead' or should this go to small claims court?

We're not trying to get out of taking care of any responsibility we have, although we feel replacing an entire floor because of a tiny section of the floor is not reasonable. Please let me know your thoughts! Thanks!

Re: Flooring Question
 

I mean I'd find it hard to believe they could stick you with the floor damage. Absent some type of obvious signs of mistreatment (scratches from high heels, a ring from a planter, etc...) what could they possibly think you all had done? Bowing and warping does not happen because of a spilled glass once in a while. It takes prolonged cyclical exposure and drying.

Really tricky without seeing it, but I would say in my experience about 90% of the time engineered floors cannot be patched. If it is in multiple rooms you could put a transition piece and only remove the damaged room. Even so there will be a variation in the appearances of the floors. So the part about him telling you it would all need to come up to repair a small spot is most likely correct. However your or your gf's liability is a whole other can of worms I would have no idea about.

Re: Flooring Question
 

They are trying to screw you over.

The funniest one is the electrical outlet; seriously that is .59 cent fix.

I would hold to my guns and ask if you can have a home inspector go look at the damage and get his opinion. If they really thought you did it you be on the hook for all of it. I have engineered wood floors in all my homes and have never had a problem with them. That is with two kids and two dogs just beating the hell out of them. Moisture can't get in from the top it has to be coming up from the slab it has to be.

Either that floor was installed wrong or moisture is penetrating it from the slab.

Sadly some if not must rental company's/landlords just view a deposit as a revenue stream.

Re: Flooring Question
 

For your question. Yes, you can replace a section but getting it to match will be tricky. My guess if its bowed or warped its not glued down it a floating floor. I'd tell them to stick it and you want your deposit back. If they refuse take them to small claims court. Your will find out there they don't have any estimates and just wanted to keep your money.

BTW It not your problem if the hot water heater leaked and you did not notice the problem.

Re: Flooring Question
 

You might want to read up on landlord tennant law in your area. Sometimes painting of walls to a different color does not automatically disqualify you from receiving your deposit back. In some states if you have lived in a rental property for a certain amountof time they cannot charge you one cent for repainting. Im not positive but i believe this is true even in instances where the rooms were painted a different color.

As far as the floor, my father owns a flooring company and i ran this by him. He suggested getting your own estimate. Most places, or even self contractors, will come out to give you an estimate on the damage free of charge. It is hard to match up the wood so "patching" probably isnt an option but it couldnt hurt to get your own estimate.

Another thing to consider is proving what caused the damage was something other than the tennant. A certified contractor could help in proving that it was not caused by some sort of neglect.

Re: Flooring Question
 

Thanks for the input so far guys. Sounds like the idea of having to replace the whole floor due to one issue isn't completely unfounded as I had initially thought.

We would love to get our own estimate, but they won't let us do that without guaranteeing this ends up in court. Personally, I think they're full of shit and we have a chance in court to at least lower the cost. However, that requires a lot of time/effort, and perhaps lawyer fees, that would outweigh our concession?

We're supposed to answer before 9PM tonight and we're torn. She's reaching out to previous tenants now to see if this same activity was attempted before.

Re: Flooring Question
 

While they probably have done so, make sure they have complied with the appropriate notice requirements. Look it up online. Tenants have lots of remedies. If you have any specific questions, PM me. If you can get a free estimate, do so.

Your lease also will talk about the security deposit and its requirements. Did you have a inspection done with the landlord before moving in (i.e. noting the existing damages)? If not, you may be precluded from claiming pre-existing damages.

Re: Flooring Question
 

[quote=Daseal;1012418]Thanks for the input so far guys. Sounds like the idea of having to replace the whole floor due to one issue isn't completely unfounded as I had initially thought.

We would love to get our own estimate, but they won't let us do that without guaranteeing this ends up in court. Personally, I think they're full of shit and we have a chance in court to at least lower the cost. However, that requires a lot of time/effort, and perhaps lawyer fees, that would outweigh our concession?

[B]We're supposed to answer before 9PM tonight and we're torn. [/B]She's reaching out to previous tenants now to see if this same activity was attempted before.[/quote]

Answer to what? They say they are keeping your deposit are you suppose to tell them that just fine or agree to something?

Re: Flooring Question
 

Found this as well, we were there and walked through the property with the landlord at the moveout date and was provided with no damages besides the previously discussed painting issues:

Is a Walk Through Inspection Required in Virginia?

Yes. The landlord must make reasonable effort to notify the tenant of the tenant’s right to be present at the move-out inspection. This notification must be made within five days of a tenant giving the landlord their move-out notice or must be made when the landlord gives the tenant notice to vacate.

The tenant must then respond in writing if they desire to be present during the move-out inspection. The landlord must then respond to the tenant notifying them of the date and time of the inspection. The inspection should be scheduled no more than three days before the tenant’s move-out date.

At the actual inspection, the landlord must give the tenant an itemized list of the damages to the unit he or she has found during the inspection.
[url=http://landlords.about.com/od/LegalIssues/a/Virginia-Security-Deposit-Law.htm]Virginia Security Deposit Law[/url]

She moved out on May 26th and we received notice of the issue on June 17th.

Re: Flooring Question
 

Just send them a letter pointing those things out. Their failure is likely to be a bar to them keepin the security deposit and likely opens them up to treble damages.

If you can, find and prep a simple complaint for landlord/tenant court citing the statute and the facts demonstrating their failure to comply (i.e. no inspection, notice, etc. and failure to return the deposit). Tell them you are including it as a courtesy copy but will not file unless they return the deposit. If treble damages are mandated under VA law, tell them you'll file unless they return the double the security deposit (or deposit +50%). Show them you'll make them pay for dicking you around and they will probably just offer you the deposit to go away.

By the way, this is not legal advice, just friendly banter among friends who aren't licensed to practice law in Virginia.

Re: Flooring Question
 

[quote=firstdown;1012421]Answer to what? They say they are keeping your deposit are you suppose to tell them that just fine or agree to something?[/quote]

Sorry FD, missed this earlier. Basically a bully tactic. Answer before this time or else you owe it ALL!

Re: Flooring Question
 

If they push they'll have to provide to you their reasoning as to why you are at fault. They can't just keep your security deposit as a "maintenance" fee. If the place burns down due to faulty electrical wiring while you live there does that make you at fault? No. Occupation doesn't assume complete liability for the property. Again without pictures it is hard to say but engineered flooring doesn't just warp through typical wear and tear. It has to be subjected to extreme conditions. I mean I just can't imagine they actually think you're at fault. They're trying to screw you all. Have pictures?

Re: Flooring Question
 

[quote=Daseal;1012430]Sorry FD, missed this earlier. Basically a bully tactic. Answer before this time or else you owe it ALL![/quote]

So they are trying to force you to take the best option of just loosing your deposit. I would document that coversation and fight them in court over the money. Better yet I'd tell the lady you talked to FD and he said that's a form of a bribe and you are reporting her to the city and state if they don't have your deposit returned by 9:00pm.

Re: Flooring Question
 

So we've decided we're definitely going to fight it as we don't feel it is acceptable for us be responsible for the entire floor. The floor was 9 years old and we believe the damage was caused by lack of maintenance on their AC unit in the adjacent room. We're going to file a complaint with this group ([url=http://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/consumer/complaints.htm]Consumer Complaint, Mediation & Arbitration Guide - Fairfax County, Virginia[/url]) in an attempt to mediate the issue before turning to court. I plan on meeting with a lawyer shortly to see our options.

My question is, should we warn them we feel they are being unreasonable in their claims and will be submitting a complaint? Should we simply not respond? Should we be more aggressive as JR pointed out. Mentioning we will be obtaining legal counsel, but would rather eliminate this issue immediately.

Also, for the record, we offered 1,000 last night to get rid of everything and they scoffed. So... I'm guessing we'll end up going through the dance.

Re: Flooring Question
 

[quote=Daseal;1012475]Should we be more aggressive as JR pointed out. Mentioning we will be obtaining legal counsel, but would rather eliminate this issue immediately.[/quote]

JR knows his stuff, take his advice. Hey, maybe he'll throw you a [I]Pro Bono Publico[/I]?

Re: Flooring Question
 

So... this is what we went with for anyone interested. Thoughts!

I have been advised to reject your offer and believe that the charges are both unfair and unfounded. The damage to the floor in the hallway is minor and can be repaired. Additionally, I believe that damage was caused due to lack of proper maintenance to the HVAC system in the adjacent room. We contacted maintenance personnel from The Renaissance and they suggested that type of damage is only consistent with an issue with persistent moisture. Lastly, there were already existing conditions with the floor before my arrival. The wood in front of the fireplace is discolored and there was scratching around the outside of the power outlet previous to my arrival.

Furthermore, during our official walk through and surrender of all keys, fobs, and parking passes, there was no mention of any damage to the property, with the exception of painting costs. I was of the understanding we had a verbal agreement and that the security deposit, less painting costs, would be returned.

As a courtesy I have provided you with this document before filing. Unless the security deposit ($1900.00), less $250.00 for painting, is returned I will be filing a complaint. Please be aware that due to VA law treble damages can be awarded for wrongfully withholding security deposits. I genuinely hope we can find a fair and amicable solution to our dispute.

Re: Flooring Question
 

Sounds good but I would have added that you had done nothing to the floor to cause that damage.

Re: Flooring Question
 

Reviving this thread for another round of advice. Been discussing this with a few people, but I like to get a broad range of opinions. Thanks to everyone who has helped me through some of the difficult parts of this... adventure (JR, TMC, GMAN).

[B]TL;DR:[/B] We asked for some critical details such as pictures, names, etc and were sent an ambiguous e-mail that did not respond to a single question. Not sure of my next step!

Now that I've given a synopsis, they've offered us a lot of one-sided 'deals' to which we've fought back. We asked for them to provide the following:[LIST][*]Pictures of damage before/after.[*]Current hardwood in apartment[*]Name of company and contractor who gave the quote[*]Copy of the quote[*]Type of hardwood going into the apartment in quote[*]Ability to have a contractor, of our choose, assess the situation[/LIST]
We talked to multiple contractors that said patching would be no issue at all. However, all of them wanted to see anything before saying anything official. Their response was as follows:
[quote]We received your email and understand that you do not want to accept or consider the original offer, which of course is fine.
Therefore, we are further looking into the matter and handling it in a fair manner.

You will hear from us and/or our representative by the deadline that we have according to VA Law which we have looked into, 45 days from when we received the keys to provide a written statement regarding the deposit. Please note that when there are repairs to be made, an additional 15 days is allowed according to VA Law.

You will receive a written statement including a detailed list of any deductions along with any remaining deposit if this applies.
After that point, you may decide to proceed as you wish.[/quote]

Their response seems to fail to answer any of our questions or portray really anything. We're not sure how to proceed. I believe the landlord has also moved. We're thinking of sending an e-mail asking them to please collect our requested information and provide their address. At that point, I believe we will file a claim to mediation, and if nothing comes of that we will have to 'lawyer up' and go to court. I'd rather avoid the 250/hr if possible, but it may not be possible. I hope we can recover our lawyers' fees if we end up winning.

We also found the following clause in the VA tenant landlord act:
[quote]3. Permit a tenant or his authorized agent or attorney to inspect such tenant's records of deductions at any time during normal business hours.

C. Upon request by the landlord to a tenant to vacate, or within five days after receipt of notice by the landlord of the tenant's intent to vacate, the landlord shall make reasonable efforts to advise the tenant of the tenant's right to be present at the landlord's inspection of the dwelling unit for the purpose of determining the amount of security deposit to be returned. If the tenant desires to be present when the landlord makes the inspection, he shall so advise the landlord in writing who, in turn, shall notify the tenant of the time and date of the inspection, which must be made within 72 hours of delivery of possession. Upon completion of the inspection attended by the tenant, the landlord shall furnish the tenant with an itemized list of damages to the dwelling unit known to exist at the time of the inspection.[/quote]

Which we read as their responsibility to make us aware of any damage to the apartment, in writing, at time of the walk through. Considering they claim that there was substantial floor damage, in a heavily travelled hallway, there is no excuse not to mention it during the walkthrough. During the walkthrough they only talked about painting the apartment, which we had already discussed, in writing, prior to the walkthrough.

Thanks in advance for the advice. It's been quite stressful lately.

Re: Flooring Question
 

You told me today they said they have more time than that. That makes no sense, what's to keep anyone from damaging a place after the fact and charging you later? This whole thing is so shady.

Re: Flooring Question
 

[quote=TheMalcolmConnection;1013144]You told me today they said they have more time than that. That makes no sense, what's to keep anyone from damaging a place after the fact and charging you later? This whole thing is so shady.[/quote]

They have more time to return the deposit. 45 days goes to 60 if there are any damages, which we can count the mutually agreed upon painting as part of for that.

Re: Flooring Question
 

I worked in the flooring business for a while (on the accounting side but I still learned a lot).

It doesn't sound like that flooring was installed properly, more specifically, the wrong underlayment and concrete probably wasn't prepped properly. If you're installing any type of wood or laminate over concrete, you need to do some waterproofing and use a barrier that will prevent concrete's natural moisture from touching the wood. Warping is a sign that the install wasn't done correctly. These types of floors are typically not glued down either. I bet they glued it right to the concrete.

I'd get a good flooring contractor to look at it for you. They should not be charging you for this damage because it doesn't sound like you caused it.

I'd even question the painting of the walls. Don't most landlords paint after every tenant anyway to freshen it up for a new move-in?

Re: Flooring Question
 

[quote=Daseal;1013132]Reviving this thread for another round of advice. Been discussing this with a few people, but I like to get a broad range of opinions. Thanks to everyone who has helped me through some of the difficult parts of this... adventure (JR, TMC, GMAN).

[B]TL;DR:[/B] We asked for some critical details such as pictures, names, etc and were sent an ambiguous e-mail that did not respond to a single question. Not sure of my next step!



Now that I've given a synopsis, they've offered us a lot of one-sided 'deals' to which we've fought back. We asked for them to provide the following:[LIST][*]Pictures of damage before/after.[*]Current hardwood in apartment[*]Name of company and contractor who gave the quote[*]Copy of the quote[*]Type of hardwood going into the apartment in quote[*]Ability to have a contractor, of our choose, assess the situation[/LIST]We talked to multiple contractors that said patching would be no issue at all. However, all of them wanted to see anything before saying anything official. Their response was as follows:


Their response seems to fail to answer any of our questions or portray really anything. We're not sure how to proceed. I believe the landlord has also moved. We're thinking of sending an e-mail asking them to please collect our requested information and provide their address. At that point, I believe we will file a claim to mediation, and if nothing comes of that we will have to 'lawyer up' and go to court. I'd rather avoid the 250/hr if possible, but it may not be possible. I hope we can recover our lawyers' fees if we end up winning.

We also found the following clause in the VA tenant landlord act:


Which we read as their responsibility to make us aware of any damage to the apartment, in writing, at time of the walk through. Considering they claim that there was substantial floor damage, in a heavily travelled hallway, there is no excuse not to mention it during the walkthrough. During the walkthrough they only talked about painting the apartment, which we had already discussed, in writing, prior to the walkthrough.

Thanks in advance for the advice. It's been quite stressful lately.[/quote]

Send them a certified letter with those questions and concerns you have so you have record of them receiving the request. They are stringing you along and hoping your just give up.

Funny thing is I'm now waiting for our deposit from the lady we rented from while waiting for our house to be built. The home was beat to hell so we took loads of pictures which the wife loaded on our computer that crashed and pics lost.

Re: Flooring Question
 

[quote=Monkeydad;1013182]I worked in the flooring business for a while (on the accounting side but I still learned a lot).

It doesn't sound like that flooring was installed properly, more specifically, the wrong underlayment and concrete probably wasn't prepped properly. If you're installing any type of wood or laminate over concrete, you need to do some waterproofing and use a barrier that will prevent concrete's natural moisture from touching the wood. Warping is a sign that the install wasn't done correctly. These types of floors are typically not glued down either. I bet they glued it right to the concrete.

I'd get a good flooring contractor to look at it for you. They should not be charging you for this damage because it doesn't sound like you caused it.

I'd even question the painting of the walls. Don't most landlords paint after every tenant anyway to freshen it up for a new move-in?[/quote]

In regards to the moisture question, we believe the AC unit caused water damage. This building constantly has units with flooding happening, often due to the AC units getting backed up.

We asked them to allow us to have a contractor, of our choice, to evaluate the situation and that response was ignored. I talked to quite a few flooring guys and all of them felt confident they could patch the area and it may not look perfect since the rest of the floor is 8 years old, but wouldn't stick out like a sore thumb.

We're definitely looking at the certified letter, FD. Will make a decision tonight.

Thanks, as always, for your input everyone. It really does help to get multiple opinions when going through a stressful event.

Definitely send the certified letter. In it, set out what you have asked them to do and when you asked them to do it. If possible, attach copies of your previous requests. Tell them what you are seeking now and ask for a response for a date certain. Don't threaten any legal action if they fail to comply just something along the lines of "we will explore our options on how to proceed". If they don't provide an answer (don't expect one), wait until they give you a final refusal to return the deposit (which they will, don't kid yourself into thinking this will resolve itself), then file for the mediation.

Understand, they have no legal obligation to do anything unless it is spelled out in the lease or by statute. If the lease does not require them to let you mitigate or provide the name of the contractor, etc., they don't have to do so. What you need to be doing is play for the end goal of having a court or mediator find them unreasonable in their claim for damages. Keep good records of all communications. Always emphasize you are simply seeking compliance with the lease terms and State laws.

They are playing hardball and being assholes. Use that to your advantage by making simple and reasonable requests. Quote the lease where possible. Don't let the stress show and get your mind set for a drawn out affair. (Not saying it will be, but it has the potential so prepare yourself for that contingency).

Re: Flooring Question
 

We've had a development in the case! The landlord sent us a package saying that they would be deducting 250 for painting and 375 for floor repair, but returning the remainder of the deposit.

They said they had someone inspect the AC unit and there was no leak (however we thought it was more to do with the drain area than the unit itself) but they could buff and resand or something along those lines.

The mediator from the county suggested we request all receipts and quotes before accepting anything. My girlfriend and I also have different ideas as to if we should accept it or not. I believe we should accept it because the mental anguish, stress, and potential for having to pay significantly more outweigh still feeling as if we did nothing wrong. She see's it more of an 'on principle' type fight.

What does the gallery think?

Fight on!

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

Re: Flooring Question
 

I'd still fight that floor portion. You did not cause the damage.

Re: Flooring Question
 

Well, I certainly would request the quotes, receipts, etc. Once you have them, find a flooring guy and painter who will give you a lower written estimate based on the numbers/info provided. Take those numbers back to the property owner and ask them, in writing, to match your numbers because: (1) No proper walk through was done so you still dispute the flooring issue entirely; and (2) Painting costs excessive and had only agreed to original numbers for settlement purposes. Now, b/c they are contesting flooring, your original offer on painting is off the table as it is also your belief that the repainting is simply reasonable wear for which you are not responsible.

If it was me, I would make one more solid push and give them a low number ($300 for everything) based on some estimates. Try for a good "split the difference" number by lowballing. See what they come back with. If they knock a few more bucks off, take it and call it a day unless you want to start spending money to get less back (i.e. it's the principle of the thing). Right now they are w/holding $625.00. If they come back in the $400-$500 range, I can see you spending that much just to retain an attorney - that's ~3 to 4 hours work at $125/hr (which is a pretty reasonable rate in Baltimore, may be much more in Northern VA).

Do as much as you can on your own and with the help of the mediator. Admit nothing. Contest everything - and have facts, documents and evidence to back yourself up. Every moment you make them work is another moment they need to spend money to hold onto money. If you were actually to file a [I]pro se[/I] suit, they would need to pay their attorney to show up. Just as you are doing a cost analysis. So are they.

At the same time, they aren't stressing. At all. They are counting on the fact that you are. Push, push, push for the best deal and spend as little as possible. Send the request for the receipts certified. Indicate you are simply trying to verify costs and, as always, are simply seeking a reasonable resolution to the issue. [I]Never let them see you sweat.[/I] Always convery calmly but firmly that you are simply trying to reasonably resolve an issue in matter where you believe you have done no wrong but have been denied a real opportunity to contest that wrong by their violation of the notice/walk through laws.

Write every letter not just for them but also for the judge to read later.

W/out threatening, let them know in every letter you write (remember the judge is also reading this) that you believed you are wronged and will fight this matter on principle - even if you have to spend some money to do so. Give them good factual and legal grounds for them to believe that you [I]will[/I] go further. At same time, always end with an expressed desire to resolve it reasonably for an amount that is fair.

Then take the money and run ... They will never return the entire deposit without a court order and, to get that order, you will spend good money for an uncertain result.

Re: Flooring Question
 

I know you looked into it but what is the time line the landlord has for returning the deposit? I've been waiting for our deposit now for over a month and if I'm correct its suppose to be return within 30 days

Re: Flooring Question
 

Depends on the State. Some have 45 days.

Re: Flooring Question
 

Thanks I'm in Va and I think its been over 45 days now. I think I'm the third person here to have an issue getting my deposit back.