New 4th and 15 rule..................
 

What do you guys think of it? I'm not for it .


"The new rule would give teams the option to not kick off after scoring in the fourth quarter. They are then put into a 4th and 15 situation on their own 35-yard line. If the team converts, they keep the ball. According to Mara, the competition committee likes the idea"


............Mara is the only one that voted against it.

Re: New 4th and 15 rule..................
 

LMAO Sorry but this is some backyard football XFL shit. No way

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Since onside kicks are basically unobtainable with the new rule, I like it. Just have to realize that kickoffs are on their way out.

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why not? of course Mara is an idiot

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What percentage of 4 and 15 are converted compared to recovering an onside kick?

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[QUOTE=skinsfaninok;1220697]LMAO Sorry but this is some backyard football XFL shit. No way[/QUOTE]Agreed. Arcade video game stuff shouldn't belong in this sport at this level.

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Its intriguing, but I don't like it.

The reason this change is being proposed is because other rule changes have made on-side kicks even more unlikely to succeed than they were previously.

But this proposed change takes, what was a special teams play, and gives it to the offense. Fundamentally, i don't like that, and i think teams would do this with success much more frequently. As a result, what has always been historically been a last-ditch, "hail mary" type-play to give the losing team a glimmer of hope now becomes something that is fairly easily attainable. It's giving the losing team a significant advantage compared to what they've had historically.

And why do we want to do that, other than to add "unearned" drama into a game? If a team wants to win a game, they should play better during the first 56 minutes of regulation. The league shouldn't give them a boost to help them win games when their play for 56 minutes shows they don't deserve it.

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Well they have to do something because the current rules have essentially phased out the onsides kick.

And oh yeah Mara is a dick


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[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1220702]Its intriguing, but I don't like it.

The reason this change is being proposed is because other rule changes have made on-side kicks even more unlikely to succeed than they were previously.

But this proposed change takes, what was a special teams play, and gives it to the offense. Fundamentally, i don't like that, and i think teams would do this with success much more frequently. As a result, what has always been historically been a last-ditch, "hail mary" type-play to give the losing team a glimmer of hope now becomes something that is fairly easily attainable. It's giving the losing team a significant advantage compared to what they've had historically.

And why do we want to do that, other than to add "unearned" drama into a game? If a team wants to win a game, they should play better during the first 56 minutes of regulation. The league shouldn't give them a boost to help them win games when their play for 56 minutes shows they don't deserve it.[/quote]

Agreed, plus trying to help come backs doesn't add drama, it takes some away IMO.
The drama comes from the idea that a team will manage to do something highly unlikely, not that they'll manage something that we're trying to put them in position to be able to do...
Okay, I know, a 4th and 15 is not a gimme, but this sport and its rules are a beauty, they make sense, as a whole. After a score, the ball is put back in play by a kickoff. Like in so many other sports.
Giving the ball back to the offense that just scored makes no sense at all.

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I'm all for some sort of new format but pumping more OFFENSE into the game isn't what we need.

The current Onside Kick is all but phased-out. I'm just hoping they replace the special teams play with a new [I]special teams play...[/I]

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I love this rule. They have made onside kicks impossible to recover. Put the offense back out on the field and add more drama to the game.

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[quote=skinsfaninok;1220697]LMAO Sorry but this is some backyard football XFL shit. No way[/quote]

lol ,i'm in total agreement ..let me hit the pause button.

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[quote=skinsfan69;1220706]I love this rule. They have made onside kicks impossible to recover. Put the offense back out on the field and add more drama to the game.[/quote]

No they haven't ,harder yeah but that's where the coach's earn their money ,so I guess there will be no more special teams play .

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I guess we will see more Chris Thompson screen.

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First things first, fuck John Mara.

I like the concept, as everybody knows the onside kick is now basically useless. And I agree with everyone else they shouldn't put the ball back in the offense's hands for another play.

So they need to create a new special teams play. But the conflict lies in the fact they are trying to eliminate kickoffs as that is one of the more dangerous parts of the game. So what special teams play can be created that doesn't resemble a kickoff? Idk the answer to that one.

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[quote=mooby;1220710]First things first, fuck John Mara.

I like the concept, as everybody knows the onside kick is now basically useless. And I agree with everyone else they shouldn't put the ball back in the offense's hands for another play.

So they need to create a new special teams play. But the conflict lies in the fact they are trying to eliminate kickoffs as that is one of the more dangerous parts of the game. So what special teams play can be created that doesn't resemble a kickoff? Idk the answer to that one.[/quote]

60 yard field goal attempt to keep possession.

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I have another idea to rise the % of successful onside kicks: make the kickers practice it more. The fact that these guys can kick it from 60 yards but can't consistently make onside kicks is ridiculous. Most of the time it's really off. If it was more accurate, then it'll probably be something like 80% / 20% for each team to recover the ball. Maybe even 70/30.

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[quote=FrenchSkin;1220712]I have another idea to rise the % of successful onside kicks: make the kickers practice it more. The fact that these guys can kick it from 60 yards but can't consistently make onside kicks is ridiculous. Most of the time it's really off. If it was more accurate, then it'll probably be something like 80% / 20% for each team to recover the ball. Maybe even 70/30.[/quote]

Interesting. You know what, it seems like every time it looks like a successful onside, it turns out it only traveled 8-9 yards and they turn the ball over. I bet moving the "minimum yards the ball must travel before being touched" to 7 or 8 yards would greatly increase the chances of the kicking team recovering.

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[QUOTE=Skinsfanatic;1220713]Interesting. You know what, it seems like every time it looks like a successful onside, it turns out it only traveled 8-9 yards and they turn the ball over. I bet moving the "minimum yards the ball must travel before being touched" to 7 or 8 yards would greatly increase the chances of the kicking team recovering.[/QUOTE]

Wow!

Honestly that is the Best Idea I have heard so far!

Not only would reducing the recovery yards increase the chances of the kicking team recovering, but I honestly think that it would lessen the chance of injuries since there is less room for the players to get up speed and hit with force.

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[quote=Skinsfanatic;1220713]Interesting. You know what, it seems like every time it looks like a successful onside, it turns out it only traveled 8-9 yards and they turn the ball over. I bet moving the "minimum yards the ball must travel before being touched" to 7 or 8 yards would greatly increase the chances of the kicking team recovering.[/quote]

You may very well have a very good point.

But at what point "it seems like every time it looks like a successful onside, it turns out it only traveled 8-9 yards and they turn the ball over" is caused by the fact that the receiving team doesn't try to recover the ball before it travels 10 yards because if they touch it it becomes available for both teams ? If that's the case, moving it to 8 yards wouldn't change much.
But maybe a couple of yards would indeed make it a tad more easy on kickers.

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The idea has merit. But when I think about the last ten years of rule changes that grossly give preference to the offense, I do not like it. Call me old fashioned. But the rules committee has spent the last decade making it harder on defenders to defend and easier on offenses to move the ball.

4th and 15, it is easier for the offense to either convert, or, get a PI call then it is for a defense to stop them.

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[quote=sandtrapjack;1220727]The idea has merit. But when I think about the last ten years of rule changes that grossly give preference to the offense, I do not like it. Call me old fashioned. [B]But the rules committee has spent the last decade making it harder on defenders to defend and easier on offenses to move the ball.
[/B]
4th and 15, it is easier for the offense to either convert, or, get a PI call then it is for a defense to stop them.[/quote]

It was been a lot longer than the last decade, more like the last 40+ years. The head slap was outlawed in 1977 in that same year they also started progressively letting offensive lineman use their hands more.

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[quote=Buffalo Bob;1220728]It was been a lot longer than the last decade, more like the last 40+ years. The head slap was outlawed in 1977 in that same year they also started progressively letting offensive lineman use their hands more.[/quote]

Yeah man, I remember. Who was it that 'vilified' the head-slap? I think it was Deacon Jones maybe? Good times.

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[quote=Buffalo Bob;1220728]It was been a lot longer than the last decade, more like the last 40+ years. The head slap was outlawed in 1977 in that same year they also started progressively letting offensive lineman use their hands more.[/quote]



[quote=sandtrapjack;1220729]Yeah man, I remember. Who was it that 'vilified' the head-slap? I think it was Deacon Jones maybe? Good times.[/quote]

That was Deacon Jones. I think he also coined the term "sack." I remember the rule changes in that era well as I was playing High School football and a lot of their rules followed the pros. Pre 1977 were great times to play defense, you could beat an O-lineman in the head and he could not extend his arms to defend himself or he would get flagged for illegal use of hands.

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[quote=Buffalo Bob;1220730]That was Deacon Jones. I think he also coined the term "sack." I remember the rule changes in that era well as I was playing High School football and a lot of their rules followed the pros. Pre 1977 were great times to play defense, you could beat an O-lineman in the head and he could not extend his arms to defend himself or he would get flagged for illegal use of hands.[/quote]

I loved it, I was very good at it in High School and College.

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[quote=FrenchSkin;1220719]You may very well have a very good point.

But at what point "it seems like every time it looks like a successful onside, it turns out it only traveled 8-9 yards and they turn the ball over" is caused by the fact that the receiving team doesn't try to recover the ball before it travels 10 yards because if they touch it it becomes available for both teams ? If that's the case, moving it to 8 yards wouldn't change much.
But maybe a couple of yards would indeed make it a tad more easy on kickers.[/quote]

I think that´s the reason.

If you want to increase onside kick recovery chances maybe stick to the ten yards but force the receiving team to be 15 yards back at the start of the play. But then you´re back at people meeting head on with a lot of speed.

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I can see it now team gets a PI call resulting in a TD .. they need another TD to win game with 30 seconds to go . They use the new 4/15 rule get another PI and go on to win game.. until they review PI (saints got screwed) then nothing really has changed.. all calls are judgement calls and PI is the most critical call on field .. FIX IT

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[quote=rocnrik;1220754]I can see it now team gets a PI call resulting in a TD .. they need another TD to win game with 30 seconds to go . They use the new 4/15 rule get another PI and go on to win game.. until they review PI (saints got screwed) then nothing really has changed.. all calls are judgement calls and PI is the most critical call on field .. FIX IT[/quote]

Looks like PI calls can now be reviewed.

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I like the thought of shortening the yard to 7-8 but by the time they get done reviewing each and every onside attempt to make sure that it went the proper distance. The game would drag on forever. I don’t see them adding another line on the field so how would one even ensure on replays that it went the distance. It would slow down the pace of the game too much towards the end. I just can’t see making it efficient from a verification standpoint. Regardless of what the refs decide. Your going to have fans of the losing side saying it was the opposite. And we have a whole new Dez catch scenario that just keeps compounding.

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Why is any team that just scored entitled to get the ball back through some kind of gimmick? This is video game thinking, not football. You’re supposed to play football for 60 minutes and the team that’s ahead wins.

If you want a gimmick that is as random as a 4th and 15 rule, make it a good one: Hand to hand combat on the 50 yard line between either the kicker or the punter of the scoring team and any player chosen by the team that’s ahead. Winner gets the ball on the 20.

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[quote=Tennskinsfan;1220768]I like the thought of shortening the yard to 7-8 but by the time they get done reviewing each and every onside attempt to make sure that it went the proper distance. The game would drag on forever. I don’t see them adding another line on the field so how would one even ensure on replays that it went the distance. It would slow down the pace of the game too much towards the end. I just can’t see making it efficient from a verification standpoint. Regardless of what the refs decide. Your going to have fans of the losing side saying it was the opposite. And we have a whole new Dez catch scenario that just keeps compounding.[/quote]

[quote=HTTR]Why is any team that just scored entitled to get the ball back through some kind of gimmick? This is video game thinking, not football. You’re supposed to play football for 60 minutes and the team that’s ahead wins.

If you want a gimmick that is as random as a 4th and 15 rule, make it a good one: Hand to hand combat on the 50 yard line between either the kicker or the punter of the scoring team and any player chosen by the team that’s ahead. Winner gets the ball on the 20.[/quote]

Agree with both of you.

Again, just remember your kicker and special team coordinator that onside kicks are part of their respective jobs. Not something that they might have to do but nobody expects them to succeed at...

If 90% of onside kicks were kicked properly, then the recovery would be 40/60%ish IMO (This statistical study was offered to you by Bernard, regular customer of my local bar).

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[QUOTE=HTTR;1221363]Why is any team that just scored entitled to get the ball back through some kind of gimmick? This is video game thinking, not football. You’re supposed to play football for 60 minutes and the team that’s ahead wins.

If you want a gimmick that is as random as a 4th and 15 rule, make it a good one: Hand to hand combat on the 50 yard line between either the kicker or the punter of the scoring team and any player chosen by the team that’s ahead. Winner gets the ball on the 20.[/QUOTE]



Isn’t an onsides kick a gimmick of sorts?

They’re just trying to replace a play that’s become obsolete.



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[quote=MTK;1221367][B]Isn’t an onsides kick a gimmick of sorts?[/B]

They’re just trying to replace a play that’s become obsolete.



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Not really IMO. An onside kick is still a kickoff. The same rules apply in both plays. It's just that you kick the ball differently...

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[QUOTE=MTK;1221367]Isn’t an onsides kick a gimmick of sorts?

They’re just trying to replace a play that’s become obsolete.



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Yes, the onsides kick is a gimmick of sorts. A more consistent rule would be to make punts and kickoffs the same — live ball only if it is touched by the receiving team. It’s a fundamental part of football that the other team gets possession after you score.

But whatever you think about the current onsides kick situation, let’s not go further down the gimmick rabbit hole. It’s pandering to the idea that your sorry ass team still has a chance to win with few minutes left no matter what the score.

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How about counting a kickoff through the uprights as a 4 point field goal? Is this even possible? I think I have seen this happen?

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Would be nice but it would be kind of confusing that four point field goal rule but you may be onto something my friend.

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I like the idea of a 4 point FG, maybe at least 57 yards out?

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[quote=MTK;1221417]I like the idea of a 4 point FG, maybe at least 57 yards out?[/quote]

So if a team is down 4 in the closing seconds at the other teams 20 do they try to score a touchdown or does the QB take a 20 yard loss on a sack and try to make a kick to tie?

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[QUOTE=Buffalo Bob;1221420]So if a team is down 4 in the closing seconds at the other teams 20 do they try to score a touchdown or does the QB take a 20 yard loss on a sack and try to make a kick to tie?[/QUOTE]



A coach is going to look really dumb in that scenario giving up a chance to win the game in the red zone vs trying to tie the game don’t you think



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[quote=MTK;1221422]A coach is going to look really dumb in that scenario giving up a chance to win the game in the red zone vs trying to tie the game don’t you think



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That was an extreme issue, but I could see someone doing something to back up if it was close.