NFL Referee Problem
 

Well the refs cost the Lions the game last night. Every game I watch there seems to be bad calls sometimes in a “rolling” effect where multiple flags are strung together. What can be done? It’s a terrible look for the game

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

The NFL has some serious issues with the Refs, it's to the point where former players are questioning the integrity of the league.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

They’ve cost a lot of games, NFL referees the last couple of years have been horrendous. When you have Tom Brady and Barry Sanders complaining while watching as fans, then there’s a problem.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

Yeah this year it's getting unwatchable. Getting full time referees was supposed to help but these guys are absolutes flaggators...
I don't think they're trying to rig games or anything, but they're throwing flags on so many plays where there's just nothing.

2 of the very first things they teach you as a ref are:

1) See everything you flag but don't flag everything you see

2) Be sure you've seen the whole sequence before throwing your flag

These guys are flagging every single thing they see and sometimes they obviously didn't see the whole sequence... I mean that's referring 101, are they getting paid per flag thrown or what ?

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

There's always been bad calls, but it's definitely getting worse. I've never heard so many of the analysts just calling out the refs during the game like they are now. They need to be held accountable...plays like last night should cost them money...then they'd be a little more cautious when throwing that flag.

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Anyone notice how they tend to come in bunches? It’s weird...a couple games ago we were backed up against the end zone and we had like 3-4 in a row...one on rookie Wes which was horseshit. Also there is sometimes a bunch and then some which tend to be make up calls. Like 2 against one team and then 1 against the other for an evening out affect.

It’s just too much and makes it unwatchable. I thought the Miami game was actually tamed and best called game I’ve seen for us this year. But I think that might be crew related...which is bad if variation is that rampant among crews.

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The end of the Dallas -Jet game was a joke.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

Seems like every game now there's a couple calls which have no basis in reality. We got a holding penalty a couple games ago, I think against Flowers, where he was controlling the guy with his hands on his chest in pads position. And the calls last night were terrible.

Idk what the answer is but we bitch about it every season, and the NFL doesn't seem to get the message.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

I will take the dissenting opinion and side with the referees. It isn't an easy job. They are on field level, not watching a TV on a couch. There are 7 guys watching 22 men, who often are obstructing their view and moving quickly. Almost every call is subjective, what is holding, what is illegal use of hands, what is pass interference?

As soon as the NFL decided in the mid 70's to make the game more friendly to the offense calling games was no longer cut and dry. Believe it or not holding used to be easy to call, so was pass interference. The rules and their interpretations are constantly changing now. Anyone notice the new onside kick rules? The chances of a successful onside kick recovery is close to nil.Try to put yourselves in the refs shoes. Every year they have to relearn their job top to bottom. That can't be easy. I blame the NFL for the poor officiating, not the zebras.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=mooby;1234370]Seems like every game now there's a couple calls which have no basis in reality. We got a holding penalty a couple games ago, I think against Flowers, where he was controlling the guy with his hands on his chest in pads position. And the calls last night were terrible.

[B]Idk what the answer is but we bitch about it every season, and the NFL doesn't seem to get the message[/B].[/quote]

They got the message from Sean Payton after last year's worst no call ever...and after last nights debacle, this morning you have all the ESPN shows, Dan Patrick, and even GMF on the NFL channel all complaining about the calls, along with Barry Sanders on Twitter. You saw the holding calls slow down after Brady bitched about it...so they're hearing it...we'll see if it changes anything going forward.

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[quote=Giantone;1234369]The end of the Dallas -Jet game was a joke.[/quote]

I heard that there were a bunch of illegal contact calls in a row.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=Buffalo Bob;1234371]I will take the dissenting opinion and side with the referees. It isn't an easy job. They are on field level, not watching a TV on a couch. There are 7 guys watching 22 men, who often are obstructing their view and moving quickly. [B]Almost every call is subjective, what is holding, what is illegal use of hands, what is pass interference? [/B]

As soon as the NFL decided in the mid 70's to make the game more friendly to the offense calling games was no longer cut and dry. Believe it or not holding used to be easy to call, so was pass interference. The rules and their interpretations are constantly changing now. Anyone notice the new onside kick rules? The chances of a successful onside kick recovery is close to nil.Try to put yourselves in the refs shoes. Every year they have to relearn their job top to bottom. That can't be easy. I blame the NFL for the poor officiating, not the zebras.[/quote]

Being an amateur zebra I also tend to side with them but this year I feel like the volume of flags thrown is way up (I'd like to have the actual stats on that).

Yes it's partly subjective but not to the extent people usually think it is: the rules are so well written that it takes away a big part of that subjectivity. Well at least it should.

And again, you're supposed to not call 100% of what you see but see a 100% of what you call... on some of these defensive holding calls, you're like "man if you actually saw the whole contact there's absolutely no way you could actually think it impacted the play, don't throw your flag if you just saw a glimpse of the sequence"...

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=Giantone;1234369]The end of the Dallas -Jet game was a joke.[/quote]

Totally agree! They wanted Dallas to win so bad, they called 4-5 pass interference calls on that final drive. Officiating sucks!!

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

Nothing will change till Refs get suspended/replaced.
They have a grading system with little consequences only rewards (Playoff games).

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

Nothing will change until ratings/revenue takes a big hit and they can attribute that directly to the refs.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1234375]I heard that there were a bunch of illegal contact calls in a row.[/quote]

6 consecutive plays with a penalty including 2 pass interferences one which happened on a 7 yard comeback route on 1st and 27

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=FrenchSkin;1234376]Being an amateur zebra I also tend to side with them but this year I feel like the volume of flags thrown is way up (I'd like to have the actual stats on that).

[B]Yes it's partly subjective but not to the extent people usually think it is: the rules are so well written that it takes away a big part of that subjectivity. Well at least it should.[/B]

And again, you're supposed to not call 100% of what you see but see a 100% of what you call... on some of these defensive holding calls, you're like "man if you actually saw the whole contact there's absolutely no way you could actually think it impacted the play, don't throw your flag if you just saw a glimpse of the sequence"...[/quote]

I did some amateur zebra work myself in High School games, but it was back in the day when the game was easier to call. Even if the rules are well written, subjectivity comes into play. I haven't seen a modern rule book I only know what the announcers tell me. If you have a link to NFL rules explained by the NFL I would love to read up.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[QUOTE=Buffalo Bob;1234371]I will take the dissenting opinion and side with the referees. It isn't an easy job. They are on field level, not watching a TV on a couch. There are 7 guys watching 22 men, who often are obstructing their view and moving quickly. Almost every call is subjective, what is holding, what is illegal use of hands, what is pass interference?



As soon as the NFL decided in the mid 70's to make the game more friendly to the offense calling games was no longer cut and dry. Believe it or not holding used to be easy to call, so was pass interference. The rules and their interpretations are constantly changing now. Anyone notice the new onside kick rules? The chances of a successful onside kick recovery is close to nil.Try to put yourselves in the refs shoes. Every year they have to relearn their job top to bottom. That can't be easy. I blame the NFL for the poor officiating, not the zebras.[/QUOTE]



I would add that we are sitting watching close ups in slow motion and high def. We have a better vantage point than the refs.

Having said that, they’re not off the hook and there have been awful calls week in and week out and it does feel like it’s gotten worse. And the flags do not seem equitably distributed - whether intentional or not, it causes folks to question objectivity, which is a bad thing.


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Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

New year, new complaints about the refs. It's the same old. Recency bias always makes it seem worse. Only thing the Saints game last year did was get us a worthless PI review where the calls are never overturned. Won't be surprised if that rule goes away next year.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=skinsfan69;1234375]I heard that there were a bunch of illegal contact calls in a row.[/quote]

They absolutely walked Dallas down the field holding their hand on bogus call after exaggerated after plain bullshit calls. Guess what fuckers? Didn't work.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

Also we have no idea what the zebras have been told behind closed doors. Plenty times in the past new rules or change in the interpretation of them has caused an initial rash of flags, then things have settled down after a couple games.

I wish we had year by year fan polls going back 50 years on how people rated the officiating. I would be willing to bet not many complained about the refs in 1969 then about the mid 70's it started climbing and it never stopped.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[QUOTE=Buffalo Bob;1234400]I would be willing to bet not many complained about the refs in 1969 then about the mid 70's it started climbing and it never stopped.[/QUOTE]


What’s your logic there



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Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

serious issues? they get paid to do exactly what the nfl tells them to do. They are obviously doing it well because they havent fired anyone for years.
there are no bad calls. The calls are exactly as intended.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=Buffalo Bob;1234389]I did some amateur zebra work myself in High School games, but it was back in the day when the game was easier to call. Even if the rules are well written, subjectivity comes into play. I haven't seen a modern rule book I only know what the announcers tell me. [B]If you have a link to NFL rules explained by the NFL I would love to read up.[/B][/quote]

Actually I don't, all I can give you is NCAA rules translated in french, but I guess that's pointless ^^

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=Buffalo Bob;1234400] I would be willing to bet not many complained about the refs in 1969 then about the mid 70's it started climbing and it never stopped.[/quote]

[quote=MTK;1234410]What’s your logic there

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

As an example:

In the mid to late 70's they outlawed the head slap and at the same time allowed offensive lineman a more liberal use of their hands while blocking. Prior to that an offensive lineman had to keep his hands closed, horizontally inside his own shoulder pads and not allowed extend his elbows in excess of a 90 degree angle.

Any violation of above and illegal use of hands could be called. It was one of those infractions that is very easy to spot even if you are standing on the sidelines and the play is ran from the opposite hash mark. Not much subjectivity was needed on whether or not a blocker illegally used his hands.

I was actually playing in High School when the head slap was outlawed and they started allowing offensive lineman to use their hands more. We were actually told the best way to avoid an illegal use of hands penalty while blocking was to grab your own jersey when engaged.

My point was under the old rules and their interpretation whether or not something deserved a penalty was black and white plus could be spotted 30 yards away. Now there are a lot of gray areas, especially with what offensive lineman can get away with. To accurately see if a lineman committed a foul under today's rules a referee has to be standing right on top of him.

In summation as the rules have evolved the game has become more difficult to accurately officiate by the book which will lead to more questionable calls and non calls. Everything used to be cut and dry, it isn't anymore. I could go on and on.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

Guess what? Guess who Sunday’s officiating crew for our game is?
Clete Blakeman and his crew who officiated the Packers vs Lions, what luck we
have.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=Buffalo Bob;1234481]

In the mid to late 70's they outlawed the head slap and at the same time allowed offensive lineman a more liberal use of their hands while blocking. Prior to that an offensive lineman had to keep his hands closed, horizontally inside his own shoulder pads and not allowed extend his elbows in excess of a 90 degree angle.[/quote]

For me High school was 70-74 and College 75-77. As D lineman I loved the head slap it worked for me , I also loved to tackle the shoulder pads(horse collar) . In those days you were allowed to tackle a player /ball carrier by any means necessary exempt the face mask. The good old days and I swear there were less injuries back then too! point is you're right wasn't near as much bitching about Refs as now.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=Giantone;1234486]For me High school was 70-74 and College 75-77. As D lineman I loved the head slap it worked for me , I also loved to tackle the shoulder pads(horse collar) . In those days you were allowed to tackle a player /ball carrier by any means necessary exempt the face mask. The good old days and I swear there were less injuries back then too! point is you're right wasn't near as much bitching about Refs as now.[/quote]

You're about 4 years older than me. I was stuck somewhat in the middle on liking the rules as by trade I was a middle linebacker in High School and College but was a back up guard and tackle, so I gave head slaps but had to take them also. It was pretty screwed up playing O-line as you could not extend your arms but the the dude you were trying to block can beat you in the head. Playing defense was fun in those days. I could not imagine doing it now, especially trying to tackle a QB. I think you are supposed to pick them up and lay them down while placing a pillow under their head.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[QUOTE=Buffalo Bob;1234481]As an example:



In the mid to late 70's they outlawed the head slap and at the same time allowed offensive lineman a more liberal use of their hands while blocking. Prior to that an offensive lineman had to keep his hands closed, horizontally inside his own shoulder pads and not allowed extend his elbows in excess of a 90 degree angle.



Any violation of above and illegal use of hands could be called. It was one of those infractions that is very easy to spot even if you are standing on the sidelines and the play is ran from the opposite hash mark. Not much subjectivity was needed on whether or not a blocker illegally used his hands.



I was actually playing in High School when the head slap was outlawed and they started allowing offensive lineman to use their hands more. We were actually told the best way to avoid an illegal use of hands penalty while blocking was to grab your own jersey when engaged.



My point was under the old rules and their interpretation whether or not something deserved a penalty was black and white plus could be spotted 30 yards away. Now there are a lot of gray areas, especially with what offensive lineman can get away with. To accurately see if a lineman committed a foul under today's rules a referee has to be standing right on top of him.



In summation as the rules have evolved the game has become more difficult to accurately officiate by the book which will lead to more questionable calls and non calls. Everything used to be cut and dry, it isn't anymore. I could go on and on.[/QUOTE]


I would say since the first time someone put on a black and white striped shirt and started calling penalties people complained about the refs.

I can pull up discussions here from 10 years ago saying the refs are worse than ever.

Next year at this time we’ll have the same complaints about penalties and how it’s “the worst ever”.



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Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

I dont know what the NFL can do about the terrible calls,I dont think there's anything they can do except putting more officials on the field or making every play reviewable.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=htownskinfan;1234504]I dont know what the NFL can do about the terrible calls,I dont think there's anything they can do except putting more officials on the field or making every play reviewable.[/quote]

They haven't added any officials since the mid 70's when they started to make the game harder to officiate.

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

All plays should be reviewable by coaches challenge. Why does the NFL dictate what plays HCs can or cannot use their challenges on? It's stupid.

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[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1234509][B]All plays should be reviewable by coaches challenge.[/B] Why does the NFL dictate what plays HCs can or cannot use their challenges on? It's stupid.[/quote]

You could do that and add challenges. To keep the games the same length have fewer TV timeouts.

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We don't need more challenges they're already frustrating enough... just add an official up in the booth that is able to communicate with the refs on the field and help make the calls. And we need to accept that human error is part of the game.

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I don't think you even need to add new challenges. You keep that the same but let them review any play they want to.

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[quote=sdskinsfan2001;1234517]I don't think you even need to add new challenges. You keep that the same but let them review any play they want to.[/quote]

I'm guessing we'd see the same turnover rate we're seeing now with the PI challenges. Basically it would be pointless 99% of the time.

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[quote=MTK;1234523]I'm guessing we'd see the same turnover rate we're seeing now with the PI challenges. Basically it would be pointless 99% of the time.[/quote]

Probably true. But that's up to the HC to make that choice. That call against Detroit cost them the game. Sometimes it would definitely be worth the risk.

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How about an official up in the booth that can buzz down to the field to review any call that is potentially game changing? Just like all scores and turnovers are reviewed, how about any huge call that can swing the game?

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[quote=Buffalo Bob;1234488]You're about 4 years older than me. I was stuck somewhat in the middle on liking the rules as by trade I was a middle linebacker in High School and College but was a back up guard and tackle, so I gave head slaps but had to take them also. It was pretty screwed up playing O-line as you could not extend your arms but the the dude you were trying to block can beat you in the head. Playing defense was fun in those days. I could not imagine doing it now, especially trying to tackle a QB. I think you are supposed to pick them up and lay them down while placing a pillow under their head.[/quote]




Had a game where my main goal was to tackle the QB by his pony tail, hehehe ...............and I got him , his Coach bitched but the Refs said it was fair game.:laughing-

Re: NFL Referee Problem
 

[quote=htownskinfan;1234504]I dont know what the NFL can do about the terrible calls,I dont think there's anything they can do except putting more officials on the field or making every play reviewable.[/quote]

I have an idea for what they could do to make it better, and I share all these ideas in no particular order of importance, etc..

*Referees:*
Presently NFL referees are not full-time employees and many of them have other day to day jobs / duties, etc.. I feel that this makes them not be able to devote as much time to being adequately prepared / knowledgeable for their duties on gameday. I propose making them full time NFL employees during the season. From Monday - Friday, they are in classes / meetings / training reviewing NFL game tape, recent mistakes, etc...

*The NFL will establish a quality / correctness percentage, for example; let's say that the NFL mandates that referees maintain a 95% correct ratio, that is determined upon review of games. This is reviewed annually, and any referees who fall below the previously agreed upon rating are terminated.

*Game Day*
ALL penalty calls are reviewble. Also, the HC can throw the challenge flag on a play where an obvious penalty has occurred and is NOT called. The HC's have three challenge flags given to them on each half. Just like the regular challenges, if a HC wins two reviews, he gets an extra flag. The strategy here by the HC is knowing his battles and saving his flags for only the most blatant calls / non-calls. He probably won't throw one on a holding for example, but he should for sure throw one on a blatant face mask / horse collar / blatant pass interference, etc... When it is found that referees threw a flag but they were over-ruled on a review/challenge, then that negatively affects their score.

I know this is not a perfect solution and that it doesn't cover everything, but the officiating is getting very poor, we are nearly all in agreement on that, so we should all be looking at / listening to any ideas that could make it better.