Healthcare thread
 

As Matty said in the coronavirus thread, Healthcare continues to be a huge issue for the country, and the solutions are as varied as left is to right, or up is to down.

But I wanted to comment on the quote Matty posted, without making the Coronavirus thread subject to a political de-evolution.

[QUOTE=MTK;1245558]Something to think about...

@AnandWrites
Coronavirus makes clear what has been true all along. Your health is as safe as that of the worst insured, worst cared for person in your society. It will be decided by the height of the floor, not the ceiling.[/QUOTE]

I would argue this is patently false. Our worse cared for person would be a homeless drug addict on a Baltimore street. Society as a whole has a far better chance of health than that person. But it is even more false than that obvious point.

Let's take a hypothetical virus that has struck the US, and seems to be making inroads into society enough to scare the upper 5%. So much so that a billionaire funds a deep dive study to find a vaccine faster than the government is able to. Further assume that the billionaire finds the vaccine. If the vaccine is proven safe, the government would be able to claim crisis and mass produce that vaccine.

That is the extreme, but every day, the richest people are looking for medical advances that the poorest of society could never afford. There are so many examples of processes initially created for the wealthy that now make the lives of poorer individuals better. MRI's, Lasik, CatScans, Chemotherapy. It is still true that the poorest of our society doesn't have all the benefits medically of the richest, but for someone like me, living a low middle class life, my doctors have far more tools available to them because the US ceiling of healthcare is far higher than the floor.

That doesn't mean I want the homeless drug addict on Baltimore's street to not be given care, I do. It just means his condition does not set the health condition of our society. Even in transmittable diseases, the homeless person benefits from the understanding of how viruses are transmitted, and the sanitizing products that become available from greater understanding and capitalistic opportunities.

Bottomline is that innovation is created by wealth trying to make more wealth, but there has to be compassion from society for those who are struggling especially when it's due to mental health conditions or other disabilities that are not self created.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

To you the worst example to make your point is a [B]"Homeless drug person from baltimore"[/B] I understand that ,you're bias with an agenda .Now my example is and are children .They don't have to be homeless just sick enough that their parents can't save them no matter what they do.Most young children have young parents who are struggling and just one diagnosis of cancer can wipe the family out .... only an example but as you say you're fine with the rich getting it all and hopefully it will trickle on down to the lonely poor, lower middle class , middle class and upper middle class ......you know the ones that pay for everything. The ACA .....Obamacare to those that hate it, is and was a great idea that has problems but would have gotten straighten out like all big plains do at their beginnings . Trump has seen to chop up and destroy it so much that it is pretty much useless now. He is rich and can pay for any healthcare he or his family needs.
My question is what happens to a child born with a heart problem , yes he is on his parents Insurance but at the age of 21 he is off it and working trying to find Insurance but guess what, he can't, .....he has a pre existing condition his heart and can not get coverage , I would like to know what you would say to him? If he asks you why can't he be insured or get care please tell me or his parents why he doesn't deserve it?

Re: Healthcare thread
 

You’re only as strong as your weakest link, pretty simple


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Re: Healthcare thread
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1245569]To you the worst example to make your point is a [B]"Homeless drug person from baltimore"[/B] I understand that ,you're bias with an agenda .Now my example is and are children .They don't have to be homeless just sick enough that their parents can't save them no matter what they do.Most young children have young parents who are struggling and just one diagnosis of cancer can wipe the family out .... only an example but as you say you're fine with the rich getting it all and hopefully it will trickle on down to the lonely poor, lower middle class , middle class and upper middle class ......you know the ones that pay for everything. The ACA .....Obamacare to those that hate it, is and was a great idea that has problems but would have gotten straighten out like all big plains do at their beginnings . Trump has seen to chop up and destroy it so much that it is pretty much useless now. He is rich and can pay for any healthcare he or his family needs.

My question is what happens to a child born with a heart problem , yes he is on his parents Insurance but at the age of 21 he is off it and working trying to find Insurance but guess what, he can't, .....he has a pre existing condition his heart and can not get coverage , I would like to know what you would say to him? If he asks you why can't he be insured or get care please tell me or his parents why he doesn't deserve it?[/QUOTE]

Pre-existing conditions should not be a reason for disqualifications. The ACA had lots of problems, and rather than working to resolve them the Dems forced the vote, and covered it in lies. The Republicans worked just as hard to void it without trying to resolve it.

Neither party actually tried to work for the poor Americans, they just tried to make political statements.

I don't know the solution, but I wish the moderates of both parties would rise up and put forth a best practices bill that would yield bipartisan support. The solution is out there, our politicians are too divided to find it.

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Re: Healthcare thread
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1245570]You’re only as strong as your weakest link, pretty simple


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]It is a completely irrelevant point. The quote said society's health is equal to it weakest point, you add "you are only as strong as your weakest link". Both ignore the fact that our weakest link's strength is better than socially engineered systems because our system raises the ceiling and strives for compassion at the floor. Equalized medicine, equalized income, does not raise the ceiling and would eventually create stagnation that weakens the strongest AND weakest links.



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Re: Healthcare thread
 

I wanted to honor the other thread and make it stay non political so I'm putting this one here.


The man is a fucking moron!Yes it's that simple!

[url]https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/28/trump-south-carolina-rally-coronavirus-118269[/url]


Trump rallies his base to treat coronavirus as a ‘hoax’



NORTH CHARLESTON, S.C. — President Donald Trump on Friday night tried to cast the global outbreak of the coronavirus as a liberal conspiracy intended to undermine his first term, lumping it alongside impeachment and the Mueller investigation.

He blamed the press for acting hysterically about the virus, which has now spread to China, Japan, South Korea, Iran, Italy and the U.S, and he downplayed its dangers, saying against expert opinion it was on par with the flu.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

The flu kills over 500,000 worldwide per year, and that is with vaccines.

[url]https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=208914[/url]

The media has overblown the coronavirus because it blew up so quick. But comments comparing it to Katrina for example is politicizing it in typical media fashion.

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Re: Healthcare thread
 

Good site with real solid charts and numbers
[url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/#daily-cases[/url]

[IMG]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200229/0457915b084cac62d904e6ae2a6c5396.jpg[/IMG]

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Re: Healthcare thread
 

Health care needs to be more accessible and more affordable, that’s all I was trying to get at.


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Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=CRedskinsRule;1245587]The flu kills over 500,000 worldwide per year, and that is with vaccines.

[url]https://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=208914[/url]

The media has overblown the coronavirus because it blew up so quick. But comments comparing it to Katrina for example is politicizing it in typical media fashion.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk[/quote]

To say the media has over blown it is border line ignorant. Any news on how to deal with this or what is being done and not done about it .......[B]is not the media blowing it out of proportion and to throw blame there is trump like stupidity![/B]


[url]https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/medical-expert-on-coronavirus-dont-panic-prepare-for-the-worst-right-now-205533137.html[/url]


“You always have to hope for the best, but you absolutely have to prepare for the worst,” said Dr. Anand Parekh of the Bipartisan Policy Center on Yahoo Finance’s The First Trade.

Parekh served as U.S. Department of Health & Human Services deputy assistant secretary for health from 2008 to 2015.

“I think the critical thing here for the American people is not to panic, but to be prepared,” Parekh added.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=MTK;1245589]Health care needs to be more accessible and more affordable, that’s all I was trying to get at.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

...........................no doubt.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[QUOTE=MTK;1245589]Health care needs to be more accessible and more affordable, that’s all I was trying to get at.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]That statement I agree with.

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Re: Healthcare thread
 

[QUOTE=Giantone;1245597]To say the media has over blown it is border line ignorant. Any news on how to deal with this or what is being done and not done about it .......[B]is not the media blowing it out of proportion and to throw blame there is trump like stupidity![/B]





[url]https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/medical-expert-on-coronavirus-dont-panic-prepare-for-the-worst-right-now-205533137.html[/url]





“You always have to hope for the best, but you absolutely have to prepare for the worst,” said Dr. Anand Parekh of the Bipartisan Policy Center on Yahoo Finance’s The First Trade.



Parekh served as U.S. Department of Health & Human Services deputy assistant secretary for health from 2008 to 2015.



“I think the critical thing here for the American people is not to panic, but to be prepared,” Parekh added.[/QUOTE]

Walking in Baltimore i have far more risk of violent death then catching coronavirus. If you are under 40 and healthy and catch the coronavirus you have less than 2 in 1000 chance of dying.

You wouldn't think these based on the hyper coverage from all the media.

With all that said, the last sentence of your post is absolutely correct,

[QUOTE]“I think the critical thing here for the American people is not to panic, but to be prepared,” Parekh added[/QUOTE]

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Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1245569]To you the worst example to make your point is a [B]"Homeless drug person from baltimore"[/B] I understand that ,you're bias with an agenda .Now my example is and are children .They don't have to be homeless just sick enough that their parents can't save them no matter what they do.Most young children have young parents who are struggling and just one diagnosis of cancer can wipe the family out .... only an example but as you say you're fine with the rich getting it all and hopefully it will trickle on down to the lonely poor, lower middle class , middle class and upper middle class ......you know the ones that pay for everything. The ACA .....Obamacare to those that hate it, is and was a great idea that has problems but would have gotten straighten out like all big plains do at their beginnings . Trump has seen to chop up and destroy it so much that it is pretty much useless now. He is rich and can pay for any healthcare he or his family needs.
My question is what happens to a child born with a heart problem , yes he is on his parents Insurance but at the age of 21 he is off it and working trying to find Insurance but guess what, he can't, .....he has a pre existing condition his heart and can not get coverage , I would like to know what you would say to him? If he asks you why can't he be insured or get care please tell me or his parents why he doesn't deserve it?[/quote]

The ACA was a crap policy that was built off lies. You can keep your DR. LIE Rates will drop for the average family $2800. Lie rates went up. You can keep insurance if you like your policy. LIE

If I purchased a policy conforming to the ACA this year for a family of 3 my premium would have been $1,700 per month. The real kicker is that each one of us would have a $6,000 ded. So I would have to pay $27,000 before one person would have any coverage.

We still have 30 million people uninsured and then you have the people that have insurance that is useless because their deductibles are so high.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1245585]I wanted to honor the other thread and make it stay non political so I'm putting this one here.


The man is a fucking moron!Yes it's that simple!

[url]https://www.politico.com/news/2020/02/28/trump-south-carolina-rally-coronavirus-118269[/url]


Trump rallies his base to treat coronavirus as a ‘hoax’



NORTH CHARLESTON, S.C. — President Donald Trump on Friday night tried to cast the global outbreak of the coronavirus as a liberal conspiracy intended to undermine his first term, lumping it alongside impeachment and the Mueller investigation.

He blamed the press for acting hysterically about the virus, which has now spread to China, Japan, South Korea, Iran, Italy and the U.S, and he downplayed its dangers, saying against expert opinion it was on par with the flu.[/quote]

He never said it was a hoax get your facts right.

[url]https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/[/url]

Re: Healthcare thread
 

This thread is kind of weird.

To say our healthcare is dependent upon the health of our weakest link can only apply - albeit in a very loose manner - in the case of a new communicable disease against which there is no built up herd immunity. It doesn't apply in any other way.

Coronavirus is definitely more dangerous than the flu. How do you measure danger? If you get it, what is the probability then that you will die? The chances of dying once you've caught Coronavirus are much higher than the chances of dying once you've caught Influenza. Coronavirus just isn't nearly as prevalent... yet. Chances are it will hit a wall like SARS did in the summer when it gets hot and humid, when viruses generally don't hold up. Notice there are no outbreaks in the southern hemisphere, where it's currently summer?

By then hopefully we'll get a vaccine in place to stop it when it pops up again in 2021.

Healthcare is about everything from managing chronic genetic conditions to recovering from catastrophic traumatic injury to managing your blood pressure and cholesterol to getting enough exercise to maintaining your blood sugar for diabetic patients... and on and on. To boil it down to a discussion specific to a brand new communicable disease is kind of asinine.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=Back2RFK;1245844]He never said it was a hoax get your facts right.

[url]https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/trump-coronavirus-rally-remark/[/url][/quote]

LOL, you talk about getting the facts straight yet in the previous post you lie about the ACA numbers . I have never said it was perfect but it was a start with problems that could and can be fixed .

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1245869]LOL, you talk about getting the facts straight yet in the previous post you lie about the ACA numbers . I have never said it was perfect but it was a start with problems that could and can be fixed .[/quote]

Please point out any lies I posted.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1245869]LOL, you talk about getting the facts straight yet in the previous post you lie about the ACA numbers . I have never said it was perfect but it was a start with problems that could and can be fixed .[/quote]


Why are you so silent when I asked you to point out these lies you claim I made?

Re: Healthcare thread
 

This shit is just downright irresponsible

[URL="https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/10/politics/trish-regan-coronavirus-donald-trump/index.html"]This Trish Regan rant on coronavirus is something else[/URL]

Re: Healthcare thread
 

...........lets not worry about this and bitch about [B]Obama care instead.[/B]:joecool:

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=Giantone;1246512]...........lets not worry about this and bitch about [B]Obama care instead.[/B]:joecool:[/quote]

Well you called me a liar but you cannot point out what you say I lied about.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=Back2RFK;1246534]Well you called me a liar but you cannot point out what you say I lied about.[/quote]

He thinks if he repeats it enough others will take it as fact and run with it. Guys on another board I no longer go to would constantly do that. Usually it was lefties claiming people made racists comments in the past. That made them the liars as any person making racist comments was quickly banned.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

Ugh everyone just grow up and move on FFS

Re: Healthcare thread
 

Serious question:

What’s the downside of a socialized health care system?

Your taxes go up a little, but then you don’t have to pay deductibles or premiums. Studies vary, but they all show it comes close to evening out for the average citizen. No more medical bills. No more fighting with insurance companies. No more medical debt.

So what’s the downside?

We already have socialized primary education systems, Socialized infrastructure, social security, etc. we’re all used to paying taxes that benefit society as a whole - so why is it some people are so vehemently opposed to doing the same for health care?

I fundamentally don’t understand why something which benefits EVERYONE is so controversial. So if you think it’s a horrible idea, please explain to me why you think so.


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Re: Healthcare thread
 

Still old enough to remember when Obamacare was view as an impenetrable solution and opposition to the idea was scoffed at. And now they want my trust to scrap it all and tell me they have another right answer...more government.

Forget the fact I pay for my own health care which is great.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=BigHairedAristocrat;1246626]Serious question:

What’s the downside of a socialized health care system?

Your taxes go up a little, but then you don’t have to pay deductibles or premiums. Studies vary, but they all show it comes close to evening out for the average citizen. No more medical bills. No more fighting with insurance companies. No more medical debt.

So what’s the downside?

We already have socialized primary education systems, Socialized infrastructure, social security, etc. we’re all used to paying taxes that benefit society as a whole - so why is it some people are so vehemently opposed to doing the same for health care?

I fundamentally don’t understand why something which benefits EVERYONE is so controversial. So if you think it’s a horrible idea, please explain to me why you think so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/quote]

I have a lot of money taken out of my paycheck so I have the privilege of paying an annual 4k deductible for me and my daughter. But we have BCBS, good coverage.

For my daughter first year after birth, I saw what facilities accept medicaid and they are very limited, flooded, not the best, hard to get appointments and mostly dirtier than places that only accept private health.

I am afraid I will then be waiting hours in waiting rooms with poor people and their germs and if I need an appointment for like a dermatologist ... appointments will be 6 plus months out.

My ex is on medicaid and honestly, if she needed like a derm .. it would be 6m months plus, probably never. She had to wait 5 months to see an internist. But they do some things well, she gets a medical ride to her PT appointments and now has set appointments with her internist.

As someone who makes 100k, works, etc ... I then get put in the same line as as meth heads and people who dont work, have shitty health, feeds their kids sugar crap and tend to make a zillion appointments for anything .. so when someone normal like me goes to make an appointment for something that is truly medically necessary .. I have to wait weeks or months so a meth head can get their come down medicine or an obese sugar eating cigarette smoking mom can get a bunion checked out.

/end ignorant rant but that is my worry and i imagine a lot of other peoples.and I admit it is probably mostly uneducated ignorance on my part but im being honest.

** unless you have been on medicaid in a high population area, I dont think you have a real life view of what it would be like. its pretty shitty if you need outpatient help, so most people on medicaid or no ins treat ERs like walk in clinics .. bc all walk in clinics I have been to dont accept medicaid.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[url]https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2834747,-76.6378305,3a,75y,354.32h,94.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYKVKMtunE-ZA3YwOBge-sw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192[/url]

^^ click on this link. Its the google street view of my kids Adventure Dental dentist for her first year or so when she was on medicaid in Baltimore City.

[IMG]https://s3-media0.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/ekcfMiZrA9y2qLtr0q2FkQ/300s.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]https://s3-media0.fl.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/ZMc7JZ1Kht3kozDrS8W4QA/ls.jpg[/IMG]

^^ this is her dentist office now. They have freaking tvs on the ceiling and toy dispensers when they kids leave.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

^ I guess I'm not understanding why you think health coverage for all means you'll be forced to visit a backroom slum Dr?

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=MTK;1246672]^ I guess I'm not understanding why you think health coverage for all means you'll be forced to visit a backroom slum Dr?[/quote]

Be nice for a Canadian to chime in and give their opinion. I think everyone can agree our system is broken and needs help/fix'n.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[QUOTE=BigHairedAristocrat;1246626]Serious question:

What’s the downside of a socialized health care system?

Your taxes go up a little, but then you don’t have to pay deductibles or premiums. Studies vary, but they all show it comes close to evening out for the average citizen. No more medical bills. No more fighting with insurance companies. No more medical debt.

So what’s the downside?

We already have socialized primary education systems, Socialized infrastructure, social security, etc. we’re all used to paying taxes that benefit society as a whole - so why is it some people are so vehemently opposed to doing the same for health care?

I fundamentally don’t understand why something which benefits EVERYONE is so controversial. So if you think it’s a horrible idea, please explain to me why you think so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]The downside of any socialized process is the lessened incentive for initiatives, and ultimately the stagnation of the system. In healthcare specifically, this would manifest itself in fewer dollars flowing into research, for 2 main reasons

1) the federal dollars currently spent would inevitably be diverted towards maintaining equality of healthcare not progressive care - in fact specialized care requiring more dollars for fewer patients would be shunned in favor of cheaper care for more patients. The current social net approach allows a much more robust top end care while maintaining a mininum net for our most at risk populations

2) in the same vain, a true socialized system makes it more expensive for the rich to seek specialized care, because no matter how you handle the taxing it will by and far come from the highest earners in society, thus reducing their investment in indepedent solutions in the middle tier cases that breakthroughs most likely will be found. Instead they will utilize the system they are paying for and only at the high critical stages will they look to invest separately-if the government even allows them to for fear of creating an inequality that would be seen as reasons to further tax the higher earners.

Ultimately, no system is a perfect creation, as I told my kids often as they grew, life is not fair. There are inequalities in all. It is how those inequalities manifest themselves over a long term that makes socialized medicine a far worse system for our country, and the world, then a capitalist system with a strong safety net.

That leads me to one more observation/thought which is entirely opinion and likely inaccurately stated. The countries that Bernie often uses as reference thrive in part as that global safety net where the US capitalistic engine and approach enables them to add in safety nets where if they were dependemt on their economy 100percent for defense, goods and services, and utilitarian advances like satellites, service and technology increases, they would not be in a position to provide the social services they do now. But with US markets creating value and opportunity all the EU countries and the world in general has seen dramatic quality of life gains. I don't think those would have happened to the same extent if we had fully implemented a socialized medicine system 50 years ago. Who knows what advances we can see in the next 50 years or that we won't see if we go to a socialized system.


Edit because i have such a strong capitalistic streak you may think I am one of those high wage earners. I am not. I currently make less than the US national average by a good deal. I have relied on government assistance for my kids and myself at multiple points in the past 10 years. I do believe in a social safety net but it should be a catch amd release net not an entangling layer of ropes.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=MTK;1246672]^ I guess I'm not understanding why you think health coverage for all means you'll be forced to visit a backroom slum Dr?[/quote]

I am obviously just guessing, as we all are, but I could see the quality and availability of private practices going down as they wouldnt be private anymore. Anyone who wants an appointment can get in line.

What would happen to my kids private high quality dental office? Do you think they are going to maintain the high quality staff and workplace like the have now if its all medicaid?

Why pay to have tvs on the ceiling and quality staff and sterile environments.

I imagine all the current high quality practices will dissolve or greatly degress to a median care ...

Long view .. would this de-incentives young doctors from going to the best schools ... why go to some amazing expensive med school if when you get out, you get paid the same as someone who went to a podunk med school?

--------------

Health care and medicine in this country definitely needs an overhaul. And I get the overhaul is needed for the poor or dependent ....

seeing medicaid in action ... its an eye opener if youre used to private health care. that much i know I am not guessing on.

I dont want to get the low quality service and wait lines like medicaid offers.

-----------------------

[IMG]https://c8.alamy.com/comp/X5C4XN/man-reaching-up-to-helping-hand-from-man-on-ladder-X5C4XN.jpg[/IMG]

I guess I am afraid that in an effort to pull peoples health care up, they wont come up but Ill be pulled down with them.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

C Red -- well said, better than my histrionics

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[quote=SunnySide;1246676]I am obviously just guessing, as we all are, but I could see the quality and availability of private practices going down as they wouldnt be private anymore. Anyone who wants an appointment can get in line.

What would happen to my kids private high quality dental office? Do you think they are going to maintain the high quality staff and workplace like the have now if its all medicaid?

Why pay to have tvs on the ceiling and quality staff and sterile environments.

I imagine all the current high quality practices will dissolve or greatly degress to a median care ...

Long view .. would this de-incentives young doctors from going to the best schools ... why go to some amazing expensive med school if when you get out, you get paid the same as someone who went to a podunk med school?

--------------

Health care and medicine in this country definitely needs an overhaul. And I get the overhaul is needed for the poor or dependent ....

seeing medicaid in action ... its an eye opener if youre used to private health care. that much i know I am not guessing on.

I dont want to get the low quality service and wait lines like medicaid offers.

-----------------------

[IMG]https://c8.alamy.com/comp/X5C4XN/man-reaching-up-to-helping-hand-from-man-on-ladder-X5C4XN.jpg[/IMG]

I guess I am afraid that in an effort to pull peoples health care up, they wont come up but Ill be pulled down with them.[/quote]

My Dr friend talked both of his kids out of becoming a Dr's. He said if he was paid for all his work at medicaid rate he would be closed in a month.

Re: Healthcare thread
 

[QUOTE=BigHairedAristocrat;1246626]Serious question:

What’s the downside of a socialized health care system?

Your taxes go up a little, but then you don’t have to pay deductibles or premiums. Studies vary, but they all show it comes close to evening out for the average citizen. No more medical bills. No more fighting with insurance companies. No more medical debt.

So what’s the downside?

We already have socialized primary education systems, Socialized infrastructure, social security, etc. we’re all used to paying taxes that benefit society as a whole - so why is it some people are so vehemently opposed to doing the same for health care?

I fundamentally don’t understand why something which benefits EVERYONE is so controversial. So if you think it’s a horrible idea, please explain to me why you think so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

My previous answer didn't reply to your points on socialized primary education, infrastructure, and social security. I have 2 responses to that as well.
The first piggy backs on the innovation argument in my previous response. In 2 of those 3 areas -primary education and infrastructure - I think most people would agree we fall woefully short of where we "should" be. I think it is a fair statement that primary education is caught in a huge political quagmire between the powerful teachers association and the charter school ideas of the conservative side, would we have that if we had more of a capitalistic approach with a safety net, I don't know, but in 50 years do we want our medical system to look like our primary schools - inner cities failing, taxes skyrocketing -see md's new education bill. Or our infrastructure, have you seen how hard that has been to pass even though all the politicians give lip service to it. What about Dominos push to fill potholes, is the socialized system really working out so much better than private, again I don't know but when you see the advances of private companies like Uber and Lyft one could wonder where our infrastructure would be if 50 years ago we had encouraged more privatization. I don't know, but can you guarantee it would be worse? Would a private company see the traffic around the dc beltway as an opportunity to build a better mousetrap (ie elon musk's hyperloop) instead of seeing it as politicians do -how do we get the taxpayers to buy into increased taxes for something they don't use.

The second answer goes to social security, and I am thankful for social security, but it is either going to go bankrupt or to be an incredible burden against the government budget. The politicians know they need to make common sense changes like raising the retirement age and income testing recipients, but those are untenable political choices ao they keep kicking it down the road hoping some other politician will have to make the damning decisions. Imagine our whole health system frozen in a state of dire financial need and politicians being tasked to make tough financial calls. We already know with the hyper politicisation of the ACA that few if any politicians will make the hard votes against their political lives.

So that is how I would respond to the claim we already have socialized institutions why not add our medical system. First, most of our socialized institutions fail many of those they are intended to serve - primary schools/infrastructure. Second, they become political hotwires- social security, that prevent politicians to make needed changes until it hits crisis points or the economy crashes around them. For me, i would rather the goverment focus on the safety net, the edges that private markets struggle with, and let the bulk of the system run and grow external to political whims and government red ink.


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Re: Healthcare thread
 

What I think definitely needs to be done is a ceiling for charges. I can't remember when and where but I saw a study where they took people to various emergency rooms with different minor ailments. The common one was a sprained ankle, the charges varied from $300 to $13,000. That is freaking nuts! It is like someone spinning a game show wheel to come up with numbers. I can understand costs varying somewhat by overhead costs but over 40x as much?
I wonder how they do come up with pricing?

I have always like math and numbers strangely enough I remember by parents paying $27 for an emergency room visit I had at the age of 8 in 1969 to get stitched up, 17 of them as I remember. Put that in an inflation calculator, that is $190 in today's money. That was a small hospital out in the country in Northern California. What would that cost today?