Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

So, Raffy has 500+ HRs and 3k+ hits. There are only 3 other players in the history of the game to ever have those types of numbers. Automatic induction to the HOF right? Well, there are media people out there saying he doesn't belong in the HOF. It's as rediculous as Art Monk not being in the hall.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

Good comparison.

Seems like being good for a long period of time is now a big knock against players.

Being great for a short period of time is sexier I guess. I don't get it.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

Raffy should be a shoe-in. Not only does he have 3k hits, 500 HRs, but is the only player in MLB History to hit at least 38 home runs in 9 straight seasons. career .994 fielding percentage, and at this point, he's walked more than struck out. career .289 hitter, and that may be the sticking point for many people.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

Raffy should be an absolute lock. He might even finish with 600 homeruns. He said something interesting in his postgame conference on Friday night. Some reporter asked him if he felt slighted that he never really got much respect because he was never the dominant player at any one point.

And he said no, that he didn't want to take anything away from people like Mark McGwire, Mo Vaughn, Juan Gonzalez, etc. because those guys were the best when they were playing and that shouldn't be taken away from them. In a way he was complimenting them. But in another sense, it was almost like he was saying look at all the people who have come and gone and I'm still here.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

It makes me mad that guys like Palmeiro and Monk get knocked for being very good for a very long time instead of the best for a couple years. If you look at just about every player in both the NFL and MLB HoFs most of the guys were best were the best player of their time for two or three seasons at most(if at all). Outside of the few dominate players like Ruth and Jim Brown there aren;t a lot of people who were the "best" for long periods of time. So when guys are clearly one of the top two or three for a long period of time it is ridiculous to say they weren't dominate enough to get in.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

It will be interesting to see how many commentators who have expressed an opinion on Monk say what they think about Raffy. For one, I'd like to hear Peter King state his position on Palmiero, to see if he diverges from his "must-dominate" opinion in this sport.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

Well his HOF bid just took a pretty serious blow.

[URL=http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2121659]Suspended[/URL]

Man, of all people I really believed Raffy was legit. I hope this is all just a mistake

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

I just heard that on ESPN radio. If he was a borderline hall of famer before he's really going to be hurting for supporters now.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

he mentions that he can't pinpoint what he would have taken to trigger the test...so who knows. many that i've talked to have made it seem that he's done it his entire career...

HOF Numbers, but the juice will keep him out.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

He seems so sincere in the way he talks. Even the arbitrator said he didn't believe he purposely took anything illegal. I hope they publish what the drug he tested positive for was.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

This was a horrible peice of news. This was the ONE guy that I thought did everything the right way, was clean and broke all sorts of barreiers......I hope he dosent see the hall.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]This was a horrible peice of news. This was the ONE guy that I thought did everything the right way, was clean and broke all sorts of barreiers......I hope he dosent see the hall.[/QUOTE]
Do you think he knowingly took a banned substance?

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5]Do you think he knowingly took a banned substance?[/QUOTE]

He's saying he didn't, but its hard to believe in this day and age, you just put some random things into your body.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

Maybe he just popped a few too many Viagra pills, celebrating his 3,000th hit with his wife

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[QUOTE=cpayne5]Do you think he knowingly took a banned substance?[/QUOTE]

Maybe I'm jumping the gun, but I think these athletes take us for idiots. I mean seriously, if he was taking anything legal, he would have known what it is. I absolutley think he, and Bonds who used that argument as well, both knowningly took what they took. Thats my take on it, but I just dont see how a professional athlete dosent "knowing" ingest somthing into their body.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

I don't know. He made a pretty compelling argumenton SportsCenter about why he didn't know any better...

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

Sorry but it is ridiculous to mention a steroid drug user and Art Mont in the same sentence.

They can throw Palmero's numbers right in the trash if he used Steroids.

Art Mong BELONGS in the HOF. Not Palmero

My opinion above
mike

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

Major league baseball doesn't tell players what supplements have chemicals that could trigger a positive test for steroids. Supplements are not regulated by the government and the supplement manufacturers don't always tell you what a product's ingredients are.

Raffy tested positive several weeks ago. It went to arbitration and the arbitrator ruled that he didn't believe Raffy took steroids intentionally, but rather took a supplement not knowing that it would trip the steroid test. The arbitrator also ruled that it be prudent to have Raffy serve the suspension anyway.

I believe Raffy is a good man and I believe him when he says he didn't do it intentionally. The way MLB has set it up, it would be very easy to fail a drug test. I would wager that 99% of MLB players have no idea which supplement contains what. What really needs to happen is for the league and the players union to get together and devise a list of 'bad supplements'. It would protect guys like Raffy and at the same time, go after guys like Giambi.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

I'll say this... why do you need supplements?

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

Referring to Malcolm's question, Palmeiro is in the over the hill gang as far as ball players go. Supplements, vitamins, etc are a part of an athlete's life, especially at his age, to help the body fight fatigue, help heal, keep the joints going.

I take supplements every day. It may be just a multi-vitamin, and some omega-3 fish oils, but we all take some sort of supplement at one time or another.

Palmeiro did something stupid. He took something he shouldn't have, from someone who isn't a certified person to get it from, and now he's paying the consequences.

Did he take steroids? Most likely not. He has everything to lose if he does. Did he take something that could have triggered a positive on the drug test? You betcha.

Purely by the numbers, he is a HOFer. However, this will certainly taint his changes.

Jayson Stark mentioned something interesting in an article on espn.com. Gaylord Perry is a Hall of Famer, and a well-reknown cheater. He used every trick in the book to produce more movement on the ball, yet he got his free pass into the Hall. A cheater is a cheater...

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]I'll say this... why do you need supplements?[/QUOTE]
I would bet that 99.9% of all athletes take supplements.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[QUOTE=Gmanc711]Maybe I'm jumping the gun, but I think these athletes take us for idiots. I mean seriously, if he was taking anything legal, he would have known what it is. I absolutley think he, and Bonds who used that argument as well, both knowningly took what they took. Thats my take on it, but I just dont see how a professional athlete dosent "knowing" ingest somthing into their body.[/QUOTE]

I agree, I mean c'mon, I didn't "knowingly" take roids?!

Whatever.

Gotta love professional sports, the only place where you can use this lame excuse.

Imagine some average Joe getting busted for a drug test at work and trying to say I didn't knowingly snort coke. Yeah that would really fly.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

I just don't think it is as black and white as that. Normally I'm the first person to stand up and cry "bullshit" whenever I hear the "unknowingly took them" argument, but Raffy really had a good argument.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

It's still irresponsible of these players if they are taking substances and they're not sure of what's in them, or if they are potentially banned substances.

Has anyone other than Canseco admitted to using steroids?

The guy is a tool but at least he's been honest, I can at least respect him for that.

I'm just getting tired of hearing about these athletes who are playing the victim card. Oh I didn't know I was taking a banned substance... well if you really don't know what you're taking I can't feel sorry for you when it turns out that it was illegal. If you're putting something into your body and you're not sure what it is exactly, who's fault is that?

I do understand that there is alot of gray area when it comes to supplements and what's in them, etc.

I guess I'm just tired of hearing about steroids and baseball, period.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

I definitely agree that it's irresponsible of players to not know what it's things before they take them. I'm tired of it too. Can't someone just be naturally jacked? Just eat right and you'll get "most" of the vitamins you need and take a supplement of the vitamin you need. MUCH easier.

Also, the way that some of them do talk about it, it sounds SO sketchy, like someone pulls up in a rusty van with leis hanging from the rear view and saying, "Want some candy Barry?"

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]
I'm just getting tired of hearing about these athletes who are playing the victim card. Oh I didn't know I was taking a banned substance... well if you really don't know what you're taking I can't feel sorry for you when it turns out that it was illegal. If you're putting something into your body and you're not sure what it is exactly, who's fault is that?[/QUOTE]

The problem is that you can walk into a 'nutrition center' and pick up two bottles of different supplements that guarantee the same results and appear to be composed of the same thing and have it turn out that one of them will trigger a steroid test and one will not.

On a side note, can you imagine the types of numbers Raffy would have put up if he had intentionally used steroids and bulked up to the size of McGwire and Giambi?

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]I don't know. He made a pretty compelling argumenton SportsCenter about why he didn't know any better...[/QUOTE]

What did he say?

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Just eat right and you'll get "most" of the vitamins you need and take a supplement of the vitamin you need. MUCH easier.[/QUOTE]

Even if you go to your local gym, 75% of the guys in there lifting weights don't even do it au naturale. Shoot, go into a high school athlete's medicine closet and see what you find. It's pervasive throughout the country in athletic circles, yet everyone thinks its safe because they can buy it OTC.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

I know, that's why I'm pissed that I work my ass off to be in shape and just eat right and stuff. It might get you jacked up quick, but it hurts your body SO bad.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[url]http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=2122193[/url]

A REALLY good article. Makes me change my mind and blame baseball for a lot of this...

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

This is a nightmare for baseball. It would have been so much easier had this been Bonds or Sheffield and not Raffy.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

Check out this article about Deion Sanders. There is a blurb in there about steroids. It shows how easy it is to flunk a steroid test.

[url]http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-ravens-deion&prov=ap&type=lgns[/url]

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[url]http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-palmeiro-stanozolol&prov=ap&type=lgns[/url]

A leak from the MLB stated that Raffy's test showed the drug stanozolol, the same stuff that Ben Johnson was busted for in the 88 Olympics after his record breaking 100 meter run.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[QUOTE=BDBohnzie][url]http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-palmeiro-stanozolol&prov=ap&type=lgns[/url]

A leak from the MLB stated that Raffy's test showed the drug stanozolol, the same stuff that Ben Johnson was busted for in the 88 Olympics after his record breaking 100 meter run.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I just read that too. You can get a prescription for it. It's name brand is Winstrol.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanozolol[/url]

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

[QUOTE=BDBohnzie][url]http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-palmeiro-stanozolol&prov=ap&type=lgns[/url]

A leak from the MLB stated that Raffy's test showed the drug stanozolol, the same stuff that Ben Johnson was busted for in the 88 Olympics after his record breaking 100 meter run.[/QUOTE]
Two [B]BIG[/B] problems I have with this "leak":[list][*]How can the "allegedly" sealed drug tests be released to the press? That's got to be a violation of his civil rights.[*]At what point does a vehement critic of steroid users go screaming past the point of hypocrisy right into pure evil? I mean, if Palmiero denied using steroids, then got caught using a questionable supplement, then he's a hypocrite. When he gets caught using one of the most powerful (and detectable) steroids available, then what does that make him?[/list]
I'm not usually a conspiracy kind of guy, but this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Re: Palmeiro, Art Monk of the MLB?
 

1) The leak got paid...period. Why else would you put someone on the line like that, unless you were going to profit from it. Major League Baseball knows all those involved with the testing, and the leak should be fired.

2) Not quite to pure evil yet. His willingness to share with Congress shows that he wants to make sure an incident like his never happens again.

What I really want to know is how much do you have to take in order for it to show up in the test? I mean, he could have taken a few pills, and if the halflife is 4 days, and it's out of your system in 6, then it's quite possible that he took them once or twice, and that was that.

I honestly do not think he was doing them before now...Will Clark doesn't seem to think the same way though, but there is history between the 2 of them. Raffy's numbers started to jump before Canseco got to Texas, and the time Jose had with him was limited. Until proven otherwise, I think this is an isolated incident, and that it will be cleared up in due time.