Cracks in the Eagles' foundation showing
 

So does anyone think the Eagles' personell strategy is in general showing it cracks? I mean they are reverred by everyone for not over paying for players and developing prospects but honestly what prospect have they developed besides the defensive side of the ball? Johnson (the DC) is clearly a monster. But apparently they can't generate any success in developing a WR (they had to go get head case TO) and the RB situation is clearly overrated. They haven't had a true quality tailback in years. Westbrook, while extremely talented, is a short and stocky WR playing tailback. They do seem to have some success at TE but really the only offensive weapon is McNabb who you can't say they "developed", he is just straight up good. All of sudden their practice of not paying guys what they deserve isn't working so great. They have holdouts and generally it seems players are getting more disgruntled every day. How long until this hits the Patriots? Or is this just my wishful thinking?

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

Mario and Luigi's are...

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

I knew I'd crack (no pun intended...maybe) about the title.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

Patriots are still taking home Lombardi's...

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

It does seem though that every spring the Eagles are dealing w/ a contract dispute: Vincent, Hughes, Trotter, Simon, Ho. Thomas, Burgess, Tra Thomas, & now Owens.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

Actually, I would say they've done a good job of developing almost their entire offense. They've developed two good TEs (L.J. Smith and Chad Lewis), Duce Staley was a great back for his size and talent level when he was in Philly, Westbrook is a playmaker and has excelled because of the offensive system they run (west-coast), McNabb started out terribly for the first couple years, but has gotten better consistently each year, their O-line is consistently strong and many of those players are lifetime Eagles (in fact 4 of their 5 starters are lifetime Eagles.....Thomas, Hicks, Andrews, Fraley). Agreed, they've done nothing to develope any WRs, but overall I think they've done a great job of getting 100% out of almost every player that has come through their system.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

Way to prop up the igles PSUSkinsfan21! :vomit-smi Are you a spy?? ;)

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

The key to stopping the eagles is stopping Brian Westbrook, not T.O. Whenever Westbrook is on the field, good things happen for the Eagles. I wish we would treat Portis more like Westbrook, having him catch screens and all that. That alone would make the offense much better.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

I hate the iggles--but they are good at all phases of the game, and they have been for a few years now. I'm psyched if there's team turmoil, and they are not as good without TO, but they're the team to beat, mainly becuase of McNabb and their D. THey've had a stable coaching staff for a long time, and it shows. And McNabb has gotten better and better--and he makes big plays to win games. ANd Reid is good as well--he's won with feeley in there, without TO, without RBs, etc.

Still, every little bit helps here! A little distraction here, a loss of focus there, and in the NFL, someone passes you by. Man, am I going to be happy when we beat them down.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

[quote]the only offensive weapon is McNabb who you can't say they "developed", he is just straight up good.[/quote]
I'm curious to see how "good" McNabb is when TO isn't around scooping passes off the ground. He's a decent playmaker with his feet, but he's far from accurate. The Eagles offense relies so much on the passing game and big plays (they passed 12% more on first down than the 2nd ranked team) that without TO and Pinkston (as bad as he is) I don't think they can continue.

Here's what I wonder about the Eagles front office. TO isn't the first player to make accusations to say that the front office says don't worry about it, after the season we'll give you x, y, and z. Then come back and don't fulfill their promises. I wouldn't be suprised if they said we'll pay you but let's just get this deal done so you can get into camp. Which is why he completely ignored the NFL PA, etc. I think we can all admit that coming out of SF he DIDN'T get fair market value for a WR of his ability. Now, this fiasco with the Eagles has certainly dropped what he's worth, but I question if the Eagles FO doesn't like to make verbal deals then say NU UH.

That said, I'm not defending TOs actions at all, the way he's gone about this has been abominable. I just think the Eagles FO is more to blame than we're being lead to believe.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]I'm curious to see how "good" McNabb is when TO isn't around scooping passes off the ground. He's a decent playmaker with his feet, but he's far from accurate. [/QUOTE]
Actually I agree 100% with you and probably tend to think he is one of the more overrated guys in the league. I simply made that statment rather than listen to everyone pipe in about McNabb. I realize many people think he is great so I was just going along really.
In my opinion McNabb is a top 10 QB but only because he makes better than average decisions and can make some plays with his feet. Without a stud WR I can list 8 or 9 QBs straight up that I'd take before him. I know it is not a popular position but good ole stupid Limbaugh was right when he said McNabb was overrated and probably got a little of his rub from being black. The guy is a quality athlete and a role model for other athletes in his classy demeanor and determination but he is not a great QB.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

He's very classy and marketable. Just like LaVar is very marketable. However, people often like to confuse marketable with superstar. While you may see their face they aren't necessarily a great player. I think a lot of the "star" players throughout the NFL wouldn't be stars if they weren't put into a great system and didn't have quality around them. How well would Peyton Manning do without Harrison, Wayne, Pollard (last year) and that running game with Edge. He'd be a good QB, but wouldn't be breaking any records, that's for sure.

What limbaugh said I agree in the premise, however there's a right way to dictate your thoughts and a wrong way. He picked the wrong way and made it sound like his opinion was based more on race than on skill. Race, especially in this country, is an extremely touchy subject.

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Its not fair to judge mcnabb by one season where he could be missing the top 3 wr's from last year. there isnt one player in the nfl that could win on their own.

also, there isnt a crack in the eagles system. they've been to 4 straight nfc championship games and have a solid shot at it this year.
when you are so good for so long, all your draft picks are late rounders so the talent pool is less than lets say the redskins who have been picking in the top ten for too damn long. so basicly the redskins have 2 picks in the top 50 and the eagles have 1 and over the years it adds up.

the same will happen to the patriots, they wont be able to draft a ty law or another blue chip prospect while they are winning. so their stars get old and leave/retire.

the two basic rules of "the system":
draft well(thats why the pats and eagles are good)
and dont mortgage your future for a superstar of yesterday.(redskins do that every year)

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

jamf did the redskins do that this year?

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

[QUOTE=jamf]

the two basic rules of "the system":
draft well(thats why the pats and eagles are good)
and dont mortgage your future for a superstar of yesterday.(redskins do that every year)[/QUOTE]


While I agree with some of your thoughts on the iggles, I don't agree that the skins are still in the "mortgage the future" mode--that is certainly beginning to change under GIbbs.

I guess I'm unsure why you guys think McNabb isn't a top-10 QB. Getting to the NFC championship 4 times running is pretty good evidence to me--and we're not talking about a ravens type deal here--we've all seen McNabb make amazing plays to win games. As someone said: he makes good decisions, and he makes plays with his legs--exactly. He's a top-notch QB.

I hate the whole organization, but it's not that they're not good. We're going to have to earn it to take the NFC east from them. We are not there yet, I'm afraid.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

the thing is, you cant change in one year. the brunell pickup still is costing us. the picks we gave up for players will cost us for the next few years.

granted we didnt sign anyone to a large contract, but we are week in draft choice depth because of the picks we gave up for restricted free agents like morton and coles. alot of our depth is either an undrafted player or an over the hill vet.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

[QUOTE=jamf]
the two basic rules of "the system":
draft well(thats why the pats and eagles are good)
and dont mortgage your future for a superstar of yesterday.(redskins do that every year)[/QUOTE]

Until this past season. Looks like we are finally learning.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

[QUOTE=Daseal]I'm curious to see how "good" McNabb is when TO isn't around scooping passes off the ground. He's a decent playmaker with his feet, but he's far from accurate. The Eagles offense relies so much on the passing game and big plays (they passed 12% more on first down than the 2nd ranked team) that without TO and Pinkston (as bad as he is) I don't think they can continue.

Here's what I wonder about the Eagles front office. TO isn't the first player to make accusations to say that the front office says don't worry about it, after the season we'll give you x, y, and z. Then come back and don't fulfill their promises. I wouldn't be suprised if they said we'll pay you but let's just get this deal done so you can get into camp. Which is why he completely ignored the NFL PA, etc. I think we can all admit that coming out of SF he DIDN'T get fair market value for a WR of his ability. Now, this fiasco with the Eagles has certainly dropped what he's worth, but I question if the Eagles FO doesn't like to make verbal deals then say NU UH.

That said, I'm not defending TOs actions at all, the way he's gone about this has been abominable. I just think the Eagles FO is more to blame than we're being lead to believe.[/QUOTE]

I'd say that TO's original contract that the Eagles gave him was right on market value. Sure, he and Randy Moss are definitely the two most talented receivers in the game. But TO's contract only pays him like he's the 10th best receiver in the game. I say that's fair because of what a poor teammate he is. He didn't just all of a sudden become a pain in the ass this year in Philly, he was horrible to Jeff Garcia. Called him gay in the newspapers, complained that he never threw him the ball, yelled at him on the sidelines and in the huddle. If you're a team looking to sign TO, you definitely see the huge talent, but you have to discount it because he's such a pain in the ass. I wouldn't pay him a top 10 WR's salary, and I doubt many other teams would at this point.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]I'd say that TO's original contract that the Eagles gave him was right on market value. Sure, he and Randy Moss are definitely the two most talented receivers in the game. [B]But TO's contract only pays him like he's the 10th best receiver in the game[/B]. I say that's fair because of what a poor teammate he is. He didn't just all of a sudden become a pain in the ass this year in Philly, he was horrible to Jeff Garcia. Called him gay in the newspapers, complained that he never threw him the ball, yelled at him on the sidelines and in the huddle. If you're a team looking to sign TO, you definitely see the huge talent, but you have to discount it because he's such a pain in the ass. I wouldn't pay him a top 10 WR's salary, and I doubt many other teams would at this point.[/QUOTE]
Please don't take this personally Schneed10, but that's a bullshit stat. This year - and this year only - Owens's base salary is ranked outside of the top ten in total compensation. However, with the signing bonus he received last year, his two-year compensation ranks him below Moss, Harrison, and (I think because of his new contract with the Jets) Coles. That's elite company. If he had kept his mouth shut, without any changes to his contract, he would receive an additional $7.5 million in bonus on April 1st.

The "10th best receiver" line is Rosenhaus rhetoric designed to illicit sympathy for his noble client. Take it with a grain of salt. Hell, take it with a whole salt lick.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

When someone gets a fair market deal the NFL PA normally doesn't tell them to turn it down.

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Just curious, why is this worse than what Hines Ward is doing-holding out while under contract and saying he'll sit out the first six games of the season unless he gets a new deal? Is it because he's not being vocal about it?

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good question.
TO signed his contract last year. so its not like he all of a sudden became a star. also, TO chose to go to the eagles over the ravens(what a bullshit deal). now he is resorting to childish tactics to get his way. too bad for him that Philly fans wont turn on then like SF fans turned on garcia.

Ward signed his contract before he made the probowl 4 years ago and he is in the last year of his deal. he is significanly under paid. although i dont think he should holdout.

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[QUOTE=BrudLee]Please don't take this personally Schneed10, but that's a bullshit stat. This year - and this year only - Owens's base salary is ranked outside of the top ten in total compensation. However, with the signing bonus he received last year, his two-year compensation ranks him below Moss, Harrison, and (I think because of his new contract with the Jets) Coles. That's elite company. If he had kept his mouth shut, without any changes to his contract, he would receive an additional $7.5 million in bonus on April 1st.

The "10th best receiver" line is Rosenhaus rhetoric designed to illicit sympathy for his noble client. Take it with a grain of salt. Hell, take it with a whole salt lick.[/QUOTE]

No offense taken. But I think Rosenhaus is more correct on the relative value of the contract than anyone else. If you're going to look at compensation for the last two seasons only, then you're eliminating anyone who didn't sign a contract within the last two seasons. Owens, Harrison and Coles all signed within the last two seasons. Saying they rank highly in two-year compensation doesn't say much, since the signing bonus comprises well more than half of the first two years of compensation in almost all NFL contracts.

Total contract value is a pretty worthless measure since so many contracts are backloaded such that the final few years are never intended to be honored. The best measuring stick is the size of the guaranteed money (usually equal to the signing bonus). Owens got $10 million from the Eagles. We gave Coles $13 million two years ago. Harrison signed with guarantees of $23 million (bonuses payable in several installments). In 2001, the Vikings signed Randy Moss to an extension giving him an $18 million signing bonus. He's still under that contract with the Raiders.

Owens is definitely underpaid when you consider his talent alone. I was just saying that when you consider the whole package, including his talent and how bad a teammate he is, the contract value seems right on to me.

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Here's what bugs me. TO was under contract last year with SF. No one would trade for him with that bulky deal so he was stuck. Not only did the NFL let him out of his contract but they let him play games with Baltimore and Philly until he got a deal he was happy with on a team he was happy with. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

Then one year later he's talking like he got screwed and wants more money???

Also, the "I'm not being paid market value" argument is a crock. Was he getting market value last year when he signed? Has so much changed in one year? Also what numbers do you use when making your argument (total contract, signing bonus, total bonus, etc.)?

And another thing, if you are the best WR in football and sign a 7-year deal, it is practically GUARANTEED that other WRs will be making more money than you by the time the 7-year deal expires. It's called INFLATION. If you want to be the highest paid WR at all times then put that in the contract.

The only time the "market value" argument would ever hold weight for me is with a guy like Sean Taylor. A young rookie who signs a relatively cheap and long deal and then quickly becomes one of the premier players in the league at his position. Even then his case is weak but at least there is a case. Note I am not referring to the real Sean Taylor here (who doesn't deserve a dime more at this point if you ask me), but a hypothetical guy like Sean Taylor.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

[QUOTE=Schneed10]No offense taken. But I think Rosenhaus is more correct on the relative value of the contract than anyone else. If you're going to look at compensation for the last two seasons only, then you're eliminating anyone who didn't sign a contract within the last two seasons. Owens, Harrison and Coles all signed within the last two seasons. Saying they rank highly in two-year compensation doesn't say much, since the signing bonus comprises well more than half of the first two years of compensation in almost all NFL contracts.

Total contract value is a pretty worthless measure since so many contracts are backloaded such that the final few years are never intended to be honored. The best measuring stick is the size of the guaranteed money (usually equal to the signing bonus). Owens got $10 million from the Eagles. We gave Coles $13 million two years ago. Harrison signed with guarantees of $23 million (bonuses payable in several installments). In 2001, the Vikings signed Randy Moss to an extension giving him an $18 million signing bonus. He's still under that contract with the Raiders.

Owens is definitely underpaid when you consider his talent alone. I was just saying that when you consider the whole package, including his talent and how bad a teammate he is, the contract value seems right on to me.[/QUOTE]
Part of Owens's contract is deferred bonuses as well - like the $7.5 million he would be due in April.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

The deal was made to be a two year deal. Both for the Eagles and Owens. The 7.5 roster bonus in year three pretty much guranteed that we wouldn't be there beyond two years unless a rework was done. Now he is bitching becasue HE SIGNED ABD CONTRACT. He didn't get all of a sudden better last year. He was amarque guy before and he is now. He shouldn't have signed the deal if it wasn't fair. His problem, so he can go get atan in the bahamas and do whatever the f*&^ he wants I don't care. Even if he was a skin I'd say you tell me to blow off.

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[QUOTE=BrudLee]Part of Owens's contract is deferred bonuses as well - like the $7.5 million he would be due in April.[/QUOTE]

That 7.5 million is not guaranteed. It's a roster bonus. If the Eagles decide they still want him next year (which I highly doubt at this point) they would probably rework the deal and turn that $7.5 million into a signing bonus. But Owens can see the writing on the wall, he now realizes he's not going to see that $7.5 million because the Eagles will let him walk. So he's regretting signing that contract.

Of course, I have no sympathy for him. I am in no way saying he signed a "bad" deal. I think he's paid fairly. He may put up crazy numbers on the field, but his antics are detrimental to the team.

But just in terms of guaranteed money, the 2001 Randy Moss deal and the 2004 Marvin Harrison deal dwarf the Owens deal in comparison. Heck, Coles got more guarantees from us in 2003 than Owens did. Owens is certainly comparable in terms of talent with Moss and Harrison. On that point I have no argument with Rosenhaus. But what Rosenhaus doesn't consider is what a pain in the ass Owens is. That's where he's wrong. The fact that Owens is a pain in the ass is exactly why he shouldn't get guarantees anywhere close to the size of Marvin Harrison's.

Teams definitely wouldn't shy away from Owens thinking he won't produce. They'd shy away because he's a selfish player.

Re: Eagles cracks showing
 

[QUOTE=CrazyCanuck]Here's what bugs me. TO was under contract last year with SF. No one would trade for him with that bulky deal so he was stuck. Not only did the NFL let him out of his contract but they let him play games with Baltimore and Philly until he got a deal he was happy with on a team he was happy with. Sounds like a pretty good deal to me.[/QUOTE]

Didn't SF encur a huge cap hit when they let him go? I thought that was part of the reason they had to get rid of so many players during their salary cap binge?

[QUOTE=CrazyCanuck]Also, the "I'm not being paid market value" argument is a crock. Was he getting market value last year when he signed? Has so much changed in one year? Also what numbers do you use when making your argument (total contract, signing bonus, total bonus, etc.)?[/QUOTE]

I don't think he got market value if you just look at talent. He got his deal from the Eagles in 2004, right around the same time that Marvin Harrison got $23 million in guarantees from the Colts, and 3 years after Randy Moss got $18 million in guarantees 2001 from the Vikings. Certainly Moss, Owens, and Harrison are comparable to one another in terms of [b]talent[/b].

[QUOTE=CrazyCanuck]And another thing, if you are the best WR in football and sign a 7-year deal, it is practically GUARANTEED that other WRs will be making more money than you by the time the 7-year deal expires. It's called INFLATION.[/QUOTE]

I agree about inflation, TO shouldn't compare himself to anyone who signed after him for that very reason. But look at Randy Moss who signed 3 years before him, Harrison who signed at the same time, and L Coles who signed 1 year before him. If anything, Owens could have argued for more money based on inflation from their contracts.

I just mean to clarify myself here, that's all. On talent alone, Rosenhaus is absolutely right. TO is underpaid compared to the other elite WRs in the league. But talent isn't the whole picture. So overall, I think he's paid fairly and doesn't deserve any more money from the Eagles at all. They are getting what they paid for, an immensely talented but a completely selfish and disruptive player. I have no sympathy for the Eagles or TO.

And when the Eagles and TO eventually part ways, I don't think there's a way in hell TO will ever get paid like Marvin Harrison. Teams just don't want his attitude.