Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

There are two problems for this year: first, except for Griffin our d-line is mediocre. Second, and this is scary to deal with, it looks like our entire defense could only be slightly above mediocre as well. We all knew, or at least suspected that this might be the case before the beginning of last season, but seemed to forget it after our defense so severely overachieved. Drunk on our own success, every last person on this board - and I absolutely include myself in this - forgot that we are a defensive of relatively pedestrian talent - at least on paper. Moreover, we all forgot that our defense had played above its abilities, remarkably, for an entire season, and would have to continue to overachieve to maintain that level of success. We all praised the genius of Greg Williams, deservedly so, and took it for granted that with Lavar back 21 points a game from the offense this year would get us 14-2.

The key to all of this was the exotic blitz packages that no one could seem to find an answer for. That, and smart linebacker play (led by Pierce) to check the run. We could get to the qb and force a rushed throw on third and long. This disguised the weakness of our front four as well as our relatively mediocre coverage skills, particularly with our second and nickel CB's. Now that teams have learned how to effectively parry any blitz we bring (seemingly 100 percent of the time) it is becoming clear that we don't have the coverage skills downfield to effectively defend the pass. Which brings me back to my first point, that our defensive line is lacking. Until we can count on the guys up front to consistently generating pressure ala Carolina, we are going to continue to get burned.

I know someone will argue that we played well defensively today; that we only gave up 16 points and stood strong at the end of the game. And that's true. But this is the third straight game where our defense had the whole field to stop our opponent with the game on the line and couldn't do it (I'm counting the end of the Eagles game because of the ease with which they got in scoring position, even though we stopped them in the redzone). I'm not trying to beat up on our defense. I love their heart and character, and admire the success they have had as a unit. I'm just suggesting that maybe we need to reevaluate how good we really are.

Sorry this was so long but these last two games have caused alot of emotion to build up inside and this is the best way I can think of to vent (I tried punching my coffee table but that didn't work).

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

Seems like we blitz more in the first half, and the second half when we do blitz, the offense always finds the hole we blitz from.


The QB's jerseys have been too clean.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

Nice post. Having such a good defense may have been the worst thing that could have happened to us. We, we being mainly the Redskins front office, figured that GW could work his magic again. And maybe he can, but they definitely need to give him some more talent. But it could also be a situation where they have talented players just not getting enough playing time-Rogers, Clemons brothers, Boschetti, Killings.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

Honestly, I think a fair amount of the blame can be put on Frost for not kicking good punts when he needed to.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65]There are two problems for this year: first, except for Griffin our d-line is mediocre. Second, and this is scary to deal with, it looks like our entire defense could only be slightly above mediocre as well. We all knew, or at least suspected that this might be the case before the beginning of last season, but seemed to forget it after our defense so severely overachieved. Drunk on our own success, every last person on this board - and I absolutely include myself in this - forgot that we are a defensive of relatively pedestrian talent - at least on paper. Moreover, we all forgot that our defense had played above its abilities, remarkably, for an entire season, and would have to continue to overachieve to maintain that level of success. We all praised the genius of Greg Williams, deservedly so, and took it for granted that with Lavar back 21 points a game from the offense this year would get us 14-2.

The key to all of this was the exotic blitz packages that no one could seem to find an answer for. That, and smart linebacker play (led by Pierce) to check the run. We could get to the qb and force a rushed throw on third and long. This disguised the weakness of our front four as well as our relatively mediocre coverage skills, particularly with our second and nickel CB's. Now that teams have learned how to effectively parry any blitz we bring (seemingly 100 percent of the time) it is becoming clear that we don't have the coverage skills downfield to effectively defend the pass. Which brings me back to my first point, that our defensive line is lacking. Until we can count on the guys up front to consistently generating pressure ala Carolina, we are going to continue to get burned.

I know someone will argue that we played well defensively today; that we only gave up 16 points and stood strong at the end of the game. And that's true. But this is the third straight game where our defense had the whole field to stop our opponent with the game on the line and couldn't do it (I'm counting the end of the Eagles game because of the ease with which they got in scoring position, even though we stopped them in the redzone). I'm not trying to beat up on our defense. I love their heart and character, and admire the success they have had as a unit. I'm just suggesting that maybe we need to reevaluate how good we really are.

Sorry this was so long but these last two games have caused alot of emotion to build up inside and this is the best way I can think of to vent (I tried punching my coffee table but that didn't work).[/QUOTE]


While I agree with most of your thread, I have to disagree about with your assessment of the mediocrity of the defense. Walt Harris has been the target of myself and several others who have watched him miss tackles, play the receiver while never looking over his shoulder to play the ball. If you take away the plays he alone has given up you have a win against the Bucs last week. Agree? Just look at how he has fallen to all time low in covering the 2# wideouts. Not the 1#. The people that are scoring on him are no-names. The loss of Smoot is definitely felt at this juncture. But no reason crying over spilled milk. This team needs a face lift. Starting with the secondary and working its way to the WRs.

The stats don't lie. The Redskins have been the most balanced team on offense and defense most of the season. What has happened is, everyone anticipates the blitz and Williams is not changing his approach.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=SUNRA]While I agree with most of your thread, I have to disagree about with your assessment of the mediocrity of the defense. Walt Harris has been the target of myself and several others who have watched him miss tackles, play the receiver while never looking over his shoulder to play the ball. If you take away the plays he alone has given up you have a win against the Bucs last week. Agree? Just look at how he has fallen to all time low in covering the 2# wideouts. Not the 1#. The people that are scoring on him are no-names. The loss of Smoot is definitely felt at this juncture. But no reason crying over spilled milk. This team needs a face lift. Starting with the secondary and working its way to the WRs.

The stats don't lie. The Redskins have been the most balanced team on offense and defense most of the season. What has happened is, everyone anticipates the blitz and Williams is not changing his approach.[/QUOTE]

I don't have the stats to back it up but based on my observations it seems that Williams certainly has changed his approach, that he blitzes significantly less this year. That's been part of the problem. We don't have the pass rush or coverage skills to play a standard cover-2 without exotic blitzing, even though we've had to. Take away our blitzing and it seems to me we are indeed pretty mediocre.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

do you guys think that the loss of pierce is bigger than we thought? seems like a bunch of big plays were given up by guys out of position- pierce was excellent in making sure everyone was lined up correctly before the snap.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=SUNRA]While I agree with most of your thread, I have to disagree about with your assessment of the mediocrity of the defense. Walt Harris has been the target of myself and several others who have watched him miss tackles, play the receiver while never looking over his shoulder to play the ball. If you take away the plays he alone has given up you have a win against the Bucs last week. Agree? Just look at how he has fallen to all time low in covering the 2# wideouts. Not the 1#. The people that are scoring on him are no-names. The loss of Smoot is definitely felt at this juncture. But no reason crying over spilled milk. This team needs a face lift. Starting with the secondary and working its way to the WRs.

The stats don't lie. The Redskins have been the most balanced team on offense and defense most of the season. What has happened is, everyone anticipates the blitz and Williams is not changing his approach.[/QUOTE]


Remember, Football games are won and lost in the trenches. After watching our team play the last few weeks there can be no doubt our lines (both offense & defense) need shock treatment. Problem today: that ugly head called lack of pass rush.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

I totally agree longtimefan. We need a pass rush in a big way. I hope we get a legitimate pass-rusher in the offseason. But, I think our cap situation precludes the acquisition a big free-agent. Plus, don't expect to get a quality pass-rusher through the draft when we don't have a 1st rounder and pass-rushers are rarely found in a rookie class.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

I've been screaming for a pass rusher for as long as I can remember. It's disappointing to me that this team has not been able to adequately replace Bruce Smith, who was by no means a top flight pass rusher with the Skins, but the closest we've had in years. I can't believe that the FO has been unable to pick one up or that they just don't care to.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

merriman is looking like a beast today in SD

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

Our best bet is John Abraham for Ramsey. Abraham wants out of New York especially after this season. When I think of Dexter Manley and Charles Mann I get pissed off because we have dropped the ball in recruiting those kind of DEs abd DTs. It better happen soon or it will be another dissppointing season.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=TheMalcolmConnection]Honestly, I think a fair amount of the blame can be put on Frost for not kicking good punts when he needed to.[/QUOTE]
frost is horrilbe...i have no idea why we got him, he blows

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65]Drunk on our own success, every last person on this board - and I absolutely include myself in this - forgot that we are a defensive of relatively pedestrian talent - at least on paper.[/QUOTE]

Uhhh, I beg to differ on this point. I was one of those who expected this defense to take a slight hit this season. By virtue of the fact that there was absolutely no effort by the front office to upgrade the defensive line, with the loss of Fred Smoot and the reliance on Walt Harris as a full-time starting corner, I was wrong only because they took more than a "slight hit." This defense is on the verge of falling below the 'average' mark.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

Remember guys, according to lots of Warpathers, the defensive line is excused for not getting pressure on the quarterback -- that's the job of the secondary and linebackers.

It's just "part of the system."

:rolleyes:

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

giving up 16 points in a game isnt bad.scoring no tds is.This team needs another reciever to compliment moss.As valuable as cooley is he doesnt scare any d backs.He cant take it to the house on any deep passes.Portis fumbles did hurt today but 95 yds are adequate.Take moss out the game and you have nobody.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=djnemo65]I know someone will argue that we played well defensively today; that we only gave up 16 points and stood strong at the end of the game. And that's true.[/QUOTE]

Not to be a jerk, but I don't agree with this statement, either.

According to the play-by-play summary at NFL.com, there were long Raider drives of 13, 11, and 11 plays that led to 13 unanswered points, given up by the defense in the second half. I don't understand how that fits with "standing strong at the end of the game." At the end of the game, the defense crumbled by allowing the winning points -- they most certainly [B][I]didn't[/I][/B] 'stand strong.'

Sure, some will say "the defense played well today, they only allowed 16 points!" The problem is, that's all the opposing team needed to win. So that's not exactly something to be proud of.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=sniks]Portis fumbles did hurt today but 95 yds are adequate.[/QUOTE]

How can Portis' 95 rushing yards be considered "adequate" when they lost the game?

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]Not to be a jerk, but I don't agree with this statement, either.

According to the play-by-play summary at NFL.com, there were long Raider drives of 13, 11, and 11 plays that led to 13 unanswered points, given up by the defense in the second half. I don't understand how that fits with "standing strong at the end of the game." At the end of the game, the defense crumbled by allowing the winning points -- they most certainly [B][I]didn't[/I][/B] 'stand strong.'

Sure, some will say "the defense played well today, they only allowed 16 points!" The problem is, that's all the opposing team needed to win. So that's not exactly something to be proud of.[/QUOTE]

When I was talking about "standing strong" I was referring to the goaline stand. Sorry I was not more clear on that. My point was that they did allow the lengthy drives that you mentioned, and that this was a problem. In seems to me like we agree on this point.

When I say "some will say," I didn't mean myself...I meant other people. Sorry I was not more clear on that either. Thought that was pretty self-explanatory.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

when 100 yd games are the measuring stick in the nfl thats not too bad.Enough to keep the defense honest if you had a passing game.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]
Sure, some will say "the defense played well today, they only allowed 16 points!" The problem is, that's all the opposing team needed to win. So that's not exactly something to be proud of.[/QUOTE]

That they beat us with 16 points speaks poorly of our offense, not our defense.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=sniks]when 100 yd games are the measuring stick in the nfl thats not too bad.Enough to keep the defense honest if you had a passing game.[/QUOTE]


In my opinion, every fumble negates about 50 yards of production. Therefore, Portis is -5 yards today in my eyes. I mean ussually the guy is VERY good about keeping the ball protected and what not, but he was way off today.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

Not sure about the -50 yds but i did say his fumbles hurt us.Bottom line no tds today and a very weak passing game that is not likely to improve anytime soon.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]That they beat us with 16 points speaks poorly of our offense, not our defense.[/QUOTE]

I see. So with the score tied, and 5:41 left to play in the game, it doesn't speak poorly of the defense when they allowed an 11-play drive, using up all but one minute and twelve seconds, and giving up the game winning points?

You'll have to explain that one to me.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]I see. So with the score tied, and 5:41 left to play in the game, it doesn't speak poorly of the defense when they allowed an 11-play drive, using up all but one minute and twelve seconds, and giving up the game winning points?

You'll have to explain that one to me.[/QUOTE]
not sure what the average is in the nfl ,but it cant be much less than 16 pts.Thats not a bad effort.No tds on offense is horrible against a twenty something ranked def.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

This defense is still very strong against the run, but until we get a big-time rush end who can get pressure on the QB without having to resort to the blitz, we will continue to give up big plays in the passing game. Losing Griffin has hurt significantly, because there is little penetration up the middle without him. As for the Raiders' biggest play, what the heck was that call? Asking Lemar Marshall to cover Jerry Porter 40 yards downfield is a recipe for disaster.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=SouperMeister]This defense is still very strong against the run, but until we get a big-time rush end who can get pressure on the QB without having to resort to the blitz, we will continue to give up big plays in the passing game. Losing Griffin has hurt significantly, because there is little penetration up the middle without him. As for the Raiders' biggest play, what the heck was that call? Asking Lemar Marshall to cover Jerry Porter 40 yards downfield is a recipe for disaster.[/QUOTE]

Yep, stopping the run is supposed to be one of the key ingredients for victory. Lately, we've done a good job in run defense, but still find ways to lose. Apparently, that theory is out the window. You can still win the game if you can't run the ball, as long as you get three takeaways.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=SouperMeister]As for the Raiders' biggest play, what the heck was that call? Asking Lemar Marshall to cover Jerry Porter 40 yards downfield is a recipe for disaster.[/QUOTE]

Seemed like there were several occasions when the closest person to Porter was Lemar. What was that all about?

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

Why is everybody ripping the def. this week there the only ones who scored a td for us this week.More than our pitiful offense scored.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

Games are won with points, not yardage. Don't look at turnovers as lost production yardage-wise, but instead, focus on field position, points produced off turnovers, and scoring opportunities lost by turnovers in or near the red-zone. Portis' first fumble led directly to Oakland's first field goal. His second fumble was on a first down at the Oakland 30, negating at least a very good opportunity at a FG. Oakland eventually punted after the 2nd fumble, pinning the Skins at their own 10. At a minimum, the two fumbles ended up being a 6 point swing on the scoreboard, and that's the difference of the game. The hidden story of this team's collapse is less about the defense and more about losing the turnover battle every week.



[QUOTE=Gmanc711]In my opinion, every fumble negates about 50 yards of production. Therefore, Portis is -5 yards today in my eyes. I mean ussually the guy is VERY good about keeping the ball protected and what not, but he was way off today.[/QUOTE]

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]I see. So with the score tied, and 5:41 left to play in the game, it doesn't speak poorly of the defense when they allowed an 11-play drive, using up all but one minute and twelve seconds, and giving up the game winning points?

You'll have to explain that one to me.[/QUOTE]


Just so this is clear, you are going to analyze how well a defense played based on one drive? Okay, well I'm just going to have to differ with you. Perhaps I was watching another game but it was our offense that lost the game, not the defense.

[B]Oh yeah, by the way, our defense scored more points than our offense.[/B]

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

While the D did give up some plays here and there, today was clearly on the offense.

6 points ain't gonna get it done.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]Just so this is clear, you are going to analyze how well a defense played based on one drive? Okay, well I'm just going to have to differ with you. Perhaps I was watching another game but it was our offense that lost the game, not the defense.

[B]Oh yeah, by the way, our defense scored more points than our offense.[/B] Point, set, match.[/QUOTE]

No, there were other drives one can point to that disproves the Redskin defense 'stood strong' at the end of the game -- for instance, the 87 yard drive at the start of the fourth quarter which began at Oakland's 6 yard line. That drive led to the tying score. Lots of Warpathers conveniently remember only the goal line stand, but the Raiders didn't need a touchdown to win the game. All they needed was a field goal. Pin the blame on whoever you want, Ramseyfan. The fact is, when the Redskins were ahead, the defense allowed 13 points and crumbled -- just like they did last week against Tampa Bay.

You seem to associate my criticism of the defense with excuses for the offense. I've made no such excuses. I just haven't started in with the offense yet.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=Beemnseven]No, there were other drives one can point to that disproves the Redskin defense 'stood strong' at the end of the game -- for instance, the 87 yard drive at the start of the fourth quarter which began at Oakland's 6 yard line. That drive led to the tying score. Lots of Warpathers conveniently remember only the goal line stand, but the Raiders didn't need a touchdown to win the game. All they needed was a field goal. Pin the blame on whoever you want, Ramseyfan. The fact is, when the Redskins were ahead, the defense allowed 13 points and crumbled -- just like they did last week against Tampa Bay.

You seem to associate my criticism of the defense with excuses for the offense. I've made no such excuses. I just haven't started in with the offense yet.[/QUOTE]

You're right. The defense made some big mistakes, particularly in terms of pass defense. I just feel the offense was even worse than the defense. Sorry about misinterpreting your posts. I thought you were ignoring the offense's poor performance.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=Ramseyfan]You're right. The defense made some big mistakes, particularly in terms of pass defense. I just feel the offense was even worse than the defense. Sorry about misinterpreting your posts. I thought you were ignoring the offense's poor performance.[/QUOTE]

I agree, outside of the Giants game, this was the offense's worst performance. What's disturbing is that this was at home, against a ho-hum Raider defense. The turnover factor is starting to sound like a broken record, but I'll keep playing it -- a minus 3 ratio every game will turn you into a bad team very quick, and it truly is a wonder how this team was ever 3-0 losing the turnover battle early on.

To me, Brunell appeared to have adequate time to throw the ball, but receivers, particularly Jacobs, were simply not getting open. And I don't know what happened to Santana Moss. Towards the end, Gibbs kept calling fly patterns to Jacobs when you'd think they'd be going to Moss who's been money since week one. So I don't know what the problem was there. Cooley was quiet too.

It also appeared that Gibbs gave up on running the ball. With a slim lead heading into the fourth quarter, the last person you'd think would give up on the run is Joe Gibbs, but he did. That took a crucial element of Gibbs' passing attack, the play-action, completely out of the game.

The way I see it, either one of two things happened today. Gibbs' playcalling, Brunell's passing, Portis' fumbles and receivers not getting open account for "just one of those days," or, and I hope this isn't the case -- someone has cracked what has so far been a troubling offensive puzzle: Contain Clinton Portis, do your best to shut down Santana Moss, wait for the fumbles, and you can beat the Washington Redskins.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

Cooley seemed to be the only one that made any noise today... he had 5-74.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

I have got to believe that we just need another wideout and defensive end for our team to be "complete." Our defense would be much better with a pass rush from the front four (something we haven't had in a decade). Our offense would be much better. I really think that we are just a couple holes away from a top notch team.

In hindsight, it would have been great to have signed Burress this past offseason. Without him, I can't see the G-men being nearly as good and I see us with another win or two.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

A new defensive line would be nice. And of course a healthy Griffin.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

[QUOTE=Mattyk72]A new defensive line would be nice. And of course a healthy Griffin.[/QUOTE]

I really think our defensive tackles would be set with Griffin in there. Griffin is a great 1 and Salave'a is a solid, solid guy. Our ends are what really needs to genterate the rush, and they arent at all.

Re: Problems with the Defense, IMHO
 

I wonder if part of the problem isn't due to Greg Blache's philosophy that sacks aren't as important as batted passes and taking away passing lanes.

Actual quotes from Greg Blache:

"The thing you have to understand is there is much more to playing defense than just getting sacks," Blache said Wednesday. "Here [in Washington], we talk about disruptions – batted balls, altered passes, try to get your hands in a quarterback's throwing lanes to make him adjust the ball."

"If a sack was really important, it would factor into the quarterback rating," Blache explained. "Incomplete passes affect his rating, interceptions affect his rating, but not sacks."